For the protestants here -- again

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I will ask this again.

"[2] I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt have no other gods before me." [KJV]

protestants have 3 gods - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

are you not in contravention of Sacred Scripture?

I have provided Scripture in my question.

perhaps the protestants can provide a Scripture-based defence? perhaps not.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 05, 2004

Answers

topping and looking for a protestant-style response to this very basic question. if there is one.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 05, 2004.

John 20:30; 21:25 - Jesus did many other things not written in the Scriptures. These have been preserved through the oral apostolic tradition and they are equally a part of the Deposit of Faith.

Matt. 28:20 - "observe ALL I have commanded," but, as we see in John 20:30; 21:25, not ALL Jesus taught is in Scripture. So there must be things outside of Scripture that we must observe. This disproves "Bible alone" theology.

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), May 05, 2004.


AGAIN. Protestants use the Trinity.It s Identicle to the Catholic Chruch. It is the same beleif.

Thouhg I disagree withhte way it was executed in the last thread, I do think that a valuable lesson can be learned by reversing this. Many times you as a cahtolic will be accused of Mary worship. This will be based on, what has already been discussed by the catholis here, misunderstanding.

However, what is the difference between your accusation agaisnt protestnants, and theirs agaisnt you?

Why are Protestnats wrogn to say Cahtolics Worshop Mary? After all, you can blatantly misrepresent their beelifs.

The book of John opens wiht a famous line, below presented.

. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Shoudl we not use this light, who is the life of men, to see the error of our ways?

Incedentlaly, thsi si also proof of at least a duality. The word and God are identical.

First John chaoter 5, verses 7 and 8, likewise speak of the Trinity.

7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Now, if htis is enough... please stop misrepresentign what protestants beelive.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 05, 2004.


John 20:30; 21:25 - Jesus did many other things not written in the Scriptures. These have been preserved through the oral apostolic tradition and they are equally a part of the Deposit of Faith. {No, they havent't. The scriptureal verses do not mention tradiiton that we also need o come ot he fullness of the truth, but rather actions Jesus did. I doub the cahtolic chruch can tell us what jesus ate on the second tesuday after the sermon on he Mound, for instance. That is an act jeuss did thsta is not recorded.

If you read the verses, it makes no commen to tradition.

JOHN 20 :30

30. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This refers to Signs, menaign Miracles. Not all his Miracles where recorded. This does not say "And follow the sacred trditions of Hol Mother chruch", rahter, it only said that soem miracles whre not mentioned here.

Likewisse, if you actually read the other verse,you se no mention of tradition.

JOHN 21:25

25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

This does not emntion sacred tradition, again, rather, it refers pacifically to Jesus's deeds, and most improtantly his Miracles.}- Zarove Matt. 28:20 - "observe ALL I have commanded," but, as we see in John 20:30; 21:25, not ALL Jesus taught is in Scripture. So there must be things outside of Scripture that we must observe. This disproves "Bible alone" theology.

{Neither of thise verses mentioned his teahcings, just his Miracles.neither id they mention sacred tradition. Nor does that have anyhtign to do withthe Trinity.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 05, 2004.


Ian??

I am confused.

I thought you were Catholic.

Do you not understand the concept of the Trinity?

Try answering the following questions without concluding that the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity:

Who raised Jesus from the dead? The Father (Romans 6:4)? The Son (John 2:19-21; 10:17,18)? The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)? Or God (Acts 3:26; 1 Thess. 1:1,5; 4:2,8; 2 Thess. 3:5; 1 John 3:23,24)?

Who does the Bible say is God? The Father (Ephesians 4:6)? The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1; 20:28)? The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3,4)? Or God (Deuteronomy 4:35; Isaiah 45:18)?

Who created the world? The Father (Ephesians 3:9-14; 4:6)? The Son (Colossians 1:16-17;John 1:1-3)? The Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30)? Or God (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 11:3)?

Who saves and regenerates man? 1 Peter 1:3; John 5:21; 4:14; John 3:6; Titus 3:5; or 1 John 3:9. Who justifies man? Jeremiah 23:6;2 Cor. 5:19; Romans 5:9; 10:4; 2 Cor 5:19,21; 1 Cor 6:11; Gal 5:5; Roman's 4:6; 9:33. Who sanctifies man? Jude 1; Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:2; Exodus 31:13.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 05, 2004.



Faith

let's start with this one. who "made" Our Lord Jesus?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 05, 2004.


Zarove

who is representing or misrepresenting anyhting.

so far as i am aware, ALL the protestants posting here are Trinitarians.

i simply asked them to prove it from Scripture, given the clarity of the First COmmandment. that is all.

to bring up Marian worship is specious - and that is me mincing my words: you must either be able to defend the Trinity on Scripture alone or concede that you are in breach of the First Commandment. that is the challenge. it could not be expressed more clearly.

the more you obfuscate by dragging Catholic devotion to Our Blessed LAdy, the more you worry me -- is this fundamental pieve of protestant "theology" something that has been overlooked?

shurely shome mistake.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 05, 2004.


My point was that baiting was not well recieved. If you go over tot eh cahtolic board, you will se I have no real interest in cahtolic Baiting. I just don't likje Protestnat baiting either.

also, see above, I presented evidence, did I not?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 05, 2004.


AGAIN. Protestants use the Trinity. It Is Identical to the Catholic Church. It is the same belief. Though I disagree with the way it was executed in the last thread, I do think that a valuable lesson can be learned by reversing this. Many times you as a Catholic will be accused of Mary worship. This will be based on, what has already been discussed by the catholics here, misunderstanding.

However, what is the difference between your accusation against Protestants, and theirs against you?

Why are Protestants wrong to say Catholics Workshop Mary? After all, you can blatantly misrepresent their beliefs.

The book of John opens with a famous line, below presented.

. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Should we not use this light, who is the life of men, to see the error of our ways?

Incidentally, this is also proof of at least a duality. The word and God are identical.

[b]First John cater 5, verses 7 and 8, likewise speak of the Trinity.

7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. [/b]

Now, if this is enough... please stop misrepresenting what protestants belive.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 05, 2004.


Well Ian--what does the Bible say?

John 1:1-18

The Word Became Flesh

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

************

I think the first line says it all....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 05, 2004.



Ian,

Chirst was not made. He was alway there. Just like the Spirit.

Think of it like this: God knew himself so well that his knowledge of himself manifested itself in Christ. Then Christ and the Father knew each other so well that it manifested itself in the Spirit. It just bang and there was another part of God.

"Chirst [...was] begotten, not made, one in being with the Father."

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), May 05, 2004.


"you must either be able to defend the Trinity on Scripture alone or concede that you are in breach of the First Commandment. that is the challenge. it could not be expressed more clearly. " - Ian

Ian,

Do you accept that there is someone called the Father (John 6, 1 Cor 8, Eph 5), someone called the Word/Son (John 1, John 20, Heb 1) and someone called the Holy Spirit who is called God(John 15, Acts 5)???

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 05, 2004.


David & Faith

i do not need to prove this from Scripture, that's my point. you do.

more later.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 06, 2004.


Ian,

Answer my question.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 06, 2004.


If you do not accept those basic facts, then there's no need to keep this conversation going.

And a note to Elpidio who will eventually end up on this thread; I don't think we need to remind people about your "prophecies", and God did not make a mistake when he used humans to translate the bible from the original languages into English, you did and continue to do so.

If you deny Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh, you aren't Christian period. To say otherwise, is to call Jesus a liar.

Back to Ian,

Only those mentioned in my previous post are in the 'God trio' (Gen 1:26, Gen 3:22, Deut 6:4, Isa 6:8, Isa 48:16, Isa 67:8, Matt 28:19, Luke 3:21-22, John 14:16,26, 1 Cor 12:4-6, 2 Cor 13:14, 2 Thess 2:13-14, 1 Peter 1:2, Rev 1:4-5, Eph 3:14-17)though the Bible insists God is one. (Rom 3:30, 1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim 2:5, Jas 2:19, Mark 12:32)

Unless you are willing to be like Elpidio and dismiss the whole arguement based on Rusty Greek, then you really can't argue with scripture.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 06, 2004.



David

i do not know why you have asked this question.

this is what i believe - Lateran Council IV: DS 800: "We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple."

I believe this because I am Catholic.

that has never been the point of the threads i have tried (with difficulty) to get going. the point I make is that I have the benefit of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, and the Church is guide by the Holy Ghost in its Magisterium.

i am sorry if this sounds tetchy -- all i'm asking for is an open debate that will help me locate the Blessed Trinity in Scripture.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 06, 2004.


Zarove

you should see that what i am getting at is quite different from the anti-MArian game that some protestants like to play. i am saying that most protestants believe in the Trinity - i am therefore correctly representing the position.

i am asking however for a steer on the Biblical source of this belief.

i am happy to take it right from the start, from FAith's quote from ST John, which is a handsome starting point.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 06, 2004.


Ian..?

Why then, do you ignore the Scripture I gave you up above?

Here are some more..

I think that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are so clearly and consistently linked in Scripture that to assume that God is not of three persons in One essence, makes it impossible to understand some passages. For example.....

For this reason I kneel before the Father...I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith" (Ephesians 3:14,16,17a).

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with with you all (2 Corinthians 13:14).

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He annointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come ( Corinthians 1:21,22).

Give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus . Do not put out the Spirit's fire (1 Thess. 5:18,19). But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior (Titus 3:3-6).

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men (1 Cor. 12:4-6).

"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the begining God chose you to be saved through the sactifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" ( 2 Thess. 2:13,14).

**********

*What does the Old Testament reveal?

Jesus Christ is Jehovah.

Jehovah said, "...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" (Zec. 12:10). Verses 1, 4, 7 and 8 identify Jehovah as the one speaking. Christ is the one who was pierced, and John 19:37 clearly tells us that this prophesy was fulfilled in His crucifixion.

Only One can be the First and the Last. That One is called both Jesus and Jehovah:

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6). And in Revelation.... The redeemer is, throughout the New Testament, identified as Christ Jesus. Since God tells us that beside Him there is no God, I take that to mean that there are no other gods, period!

Ian..,If you think that the concept of the Trinity was revealed apart from Scripture--think again.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 06, 2004.


Faith,

on the basis of St John Chapter 1, we see that there is "God", who is eternal, and "The Word" who/ which is co-eternal.

what we do not know from this passage, however, is the "nature" of "The Word". we know/ believe God to be a "super-natural being", a spirit as it were. but how can this be true of "the Word"?

you see, in plain-speak, the term "the Word" would equate with the "beliefs" or "tenets" or "philosophy" of God, that is to say an intangible, fixed, objective statement of goodness: put more simply, The Word is the Bible [if you buy into Sola Scriptura] which has been written down.

but can this be correct? can God's "set of rules" be equated to a person of the Blessed Trinity?

upon the Incarnation of The Word, indeed we saw in the Christ the personification of the Word: the Christ never sinned, despite the most irresistible temptation and provocation. but we were seeing that "rulebook" in action. none of this means that the Word was a person of the Blessed Trinity.

i guess my question is this -- a) we know of this thing called "The Word"; and this "The Word" became Incarnate and led the perfect life b) however, how do we know what the Word is? i take it, on the face of St John, to be what can be colloquially described as a "set of beliefs".

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 06, 2004.


Faith

i will read all the Scripture posted here.

however, please bear in mind the following:

a) there are various lines of attack to the non-Trinitarian - or various types of non-Trinitarian. those why deny the Divinity of Christ, those hwo deny the Divinity or separateness of the Holy Ghost, those who say they are all one-and -the-same --> one God and one person, and so on...

b) i am, therefore, keen (maybe i am alone in this) to explore fundamental statements in Scripture that go 100% directly to the matter. for every Scripture that seems to support the Divinity of Christ, there are others that go the other way - why did Our Lord pray in the garden for strength, why did He believe Himself to be forsaken, why did he need to be anointed by the Father, why did he ask us to pray to the Father but not to Himself and the Holy Ghost, why was it necessary for the Holy Ghost to come to Him, and so on.......

the doctrine of the Trinity is precise and complex: - There one God in three "persons", being "consubstantial" - These divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire - Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature. - The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being. - They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds from both. - The divine persons are relative to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance." but we see "apparent" contradictions in Scripture - The Word is the only "begotten" Son, but he is consubstantial - how's that?!?!!? maybe Jesus qua human being was the only begotten Son if you see my point? but why then did He promise to make us all Sons of God?

all's i want is a clear steer that a Sola Scripturist can arrive at the Catholic doctrune of the Trinity in Scripture Alone, without preconception or wilful interpretation of Scripture.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 06, 2004.


That we have provided.In fact, Catholic Theologians came up ihthe Trinity using scripture.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 06, 2004.

Zarove

the very existence of the ream of heresies that plagued the early Church should inform you as to my point.

if it was THAT clear, well why....

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 06, 2004.


MY poit is that the concept of the trinity was arrived as scripturally in counsil. No other source was used. No tradition, not pronouncement by any Pope, just scripture.If they can arrive at the tirnity scriptually, then why can't we?

Is it not findamentlaly the same?

Afte rall, Protestnats do nto disagree with Catholcis on everything, just on a few things. The overwhelmign majority of topics we vastl agree upon, form the Inspiration of scripture, tot he divinity of our Lord, jesus Christ, to Salvation, the Virgin Birth, Crucifiction, the importance of living a life in accordanc eot God's will, the need fo remisison of sins, ect...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 06, 2004.


But, Zarove, others deny that the Trinity is true. And, they arrive at that conclusion based on Scriptures.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 06, 2004.


Zarove

Rod makes the point well.

furthermore, bear in mind that the Trinity may have fashioned Scripture, rather than the other way round.

2nd generation Catholics had already begun to pen their ideas on the Trinity long before 7th generation Catholics settled the Canons.

Rod knows a lot about this - i don't - but there were other books that may have been excluded on account of lack of authenticity or otherwise.

eg the Gospel of Thomas??

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 06, 2004.


How could it be true that we conclude the Trinity and others do not-- and it is all confirmed in the Scriptures?

Not so.

The Word of God makes one constant revelation--not many different ones.

Those who misinterpret Scripture, do it because of outside sources-- such as religious tradition...it is the deception of Satan....

Jesus showed us how the Sadducees and Pharisees did it. He rebuked them for prefering their man made doctrine over the pure Word of God.

-- ("faith01@myway.com), May 06, 2004.


Faith said: How could it be true that we conclude the Trinity and others do not-- and it is all confirmed in the Scriptures?

Well, why don't you ask Elpidio?

I could ask the same about... losing your salvation, whether baptism regenerates, whether baptism is for infants, whether Jesus died only for the elect, whether speaking in tongues is necessary upon receiving the Holy Spirit.... The list goes on and on. All of the above things I listed are considered essential beliefs to salvation by at least some people, as witnessed in this forum alone. I think an an extension of your question might be, "Where did all the Protestant denominations come from if they all base their beliefs on the Bible?"

Heb. 5:12-6:2 (NIV)

12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. 1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Here we see that baptism is an "elementary" teaching, so why can't we agree on it? We are supposed to leave such things, having already understood them (otherwise we would need "someone to teach [us] the elementary truths of God's word all over again").

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 06, 2004.


Elpio's veiw of hr scriotures is tainted by modrnists drivel, and hi own poor exegesis. Mos fo what he say/s is disproven by reaing the verses he rpresents.

However, the poitn is the Trinitycan be illustrate din scriptures.

The point of the thread was to show that it couldnt be to shame protestnats and force tem to conceed the Authority of the roman Cahtolic Cruch. It failed in this end as one can make a cse for the Trinity form scripture alone, even if another cana rgue agssint it.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 06, 2004.


Zarove wrote:

"...furthermore, bear in mind that the Trinity may have fashioned Scripture, rather than the other way round. "

I believe that was my main point while giving the Catholic Church credit for the Trinity doctrine.



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 06, 2004.


I don't believe Protestants should concede to any ashame as a result of following Catholic doctrine. Some still follow such doctrines.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 06, 2004.


Rod, techniclaly, Ian said that...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 06, 2004.

Oh....

......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 06, 2004.


"Rod knows a lot about this - i don't - but there were other books that may have been excluded on account of lack of authenticity or otherwise. "-Ian

When I first stumbled across these books, the word "apocryphal" had the meaning equated with the word "bastard". In other words, the authors word not identyfied, which made for questionable authenticity and reliability. But, there are some books that may not be false or erroneous. I can't say for sure which books are true and which may not be. But, I do wonder about those books describing the life of Mary. Elpidio islolated the Song of Solomon (Song of Songs) as erotic stories...ok. But, who are these stories really about? The Sacred Marriage, but of who? Israel the nation or a particular person or profession?

Here's a word that may open a whole new look at religious rituals:

qdesha

[Yes, David, I'll start a whole new thread.]

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 06, 2004.


Click here for continuation about qdesha.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 06, 2004.


"I don't believe Protestants should concede to any ashame as a result of following Catholic doctrine. Some still follow such doctrines."

A: Actually, ALL Protestants follow Catholic doctrine to a greater or lesser extent. Each Protestant denomination has rejected certain doctrines of original Christianity, replacing them with the new traditions of their respective founders. But any church which has rejected ALL Catholic doctrine cannot possibly be called Christian.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 20, 2004.


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