http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/26/national/26BUS.html

April 26, 2004 Against Abortion but in Favor of Choice By ANDREA ELLIOTT

ASHINGTON, April 25 - Daniela Taveras could never have an abortion. Fabiola Peña believes it is morally wrong. Estrella Flores shakes her head at the thought. They were raised to view abortion as sin, in Latin American countries where it is illegal.

Just after dawn Sunday, these women boarded a bus with 32 other immigrants in Bushwick, Brooklyn, and left the New York area, many of them for the first time since coming to the United States. They headed to the march in Washington. But they did not go as anti-abortion protesters; they went to march for abortion rights.

"One has to respect a person's freedom and rights," said Ms. Taveras, 40, who immigrated from the Dominican Republic two years ago.

"I think abortion is killing a life," said Ms. Flores, who left Ecuador 11 years ago. But, she added, "The person who is pregnant should decide whether to do it or not."

The views of Ms. Flores and Ms. Taveras may seem paradoxical, but they capture a complex truth among Latin American immigrants and many of the nation's Hispanic residents - a group the march's organizers worked hard to court. While abortion may seem morally unacceptable to many Hispanics, it is often viewed as a personal decision that should not be governed by law.

Ms. Peña and the others who rode from Bushwick to Washington said they had seen the devastating consequences of outlawing abortion in their native countries: botched abortions, oversized families, neglected children. In some ways, they said, these real-life experiences speak louder than the abstract though powerful anti-abortion belief system in which they were raised.

"Sometimes they do it in clinics with trash everywhere," said Ms. Peña, 38, describing what she had seen as a nurse in Ambato, Ecuador. "Imagine if they suspend the right to abort here. People will end up in the same situation."

The Bushwick bus trip was sponsored by the National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health, which had a leading role in organizing the march and in mobilizing at the grass-roots level across the country.

A selling point for Latinos was the idea that they would march not just for abortion rights but for a range of issues that affect immigrant women, including the need for better prenatal health care, medical insurance and access to birth control, march organizers and participants said.

In fact, the words "choice" and "abortion rights" were absent from the canary-yellow T-shirts handed out to the women in Bushwick before they boarded the bus. In Spanish, the T-shirts read: "Health. Dignity. Justice."

"They're not going to come to an abortion rally but they are going to come to a rally that's about taking control of your life," said Lorraine Cortés-Vázquez, president of the Hispanic Federation, a New York coalition of health and human services agencies. "It's about choice in its broadest sense."

The parallel views that abortion is wrong and that it should be legal are fairly common among Hispanics, according to a national survey released in 2002 by the Pew Hispanic Center, a nonpartisan research organization. When asked if they considered abortion acceptable, only 20 percent of Hispanics polled said yes. But when asked if they thought abortion should be legal, the answer was more varied: 34 percent said it should be legal in all or in most cases, and only 32 percent said it should be illegal in all cases.

Under a still-dark morning sky, Ms. Peña, Ms. Taveras and Ms. Flores filtered into a community center on Grove Street. The center, Make the Road by Walking, provides services for low-income people. Among the services are English-language classes, which are in high demand: 28 percent of Bushwick's residents are foreign-born, according to the 2000 census.

"I'm not doing this for me, because I'm old," said Ms. Flores, 64. When she immigrated to Brooklyn in April 1993, she recalled, bilingual services were scarce at hospitals and social service agencies. Now, when she goes to see a doctor anywhere in the area, translators are easily found, she said, adding, "If there hadn't been protests, that help wouldn't exist."

Ms. Flores and her best friend, Elsa Orellana, 66, sat in the first row of the bus and stared out quietly as the city shrank from sight. Neither of the women had ever left the New York area, except to travel back to Guayaquil.

Five hours later, when the bus pulled into the Greenbelt Station parking lot in Maryland, they encountered a blur of people, signs and noise. Diego Iriarte, the group's leader, shepherded the Bushwick busload, consisting mostly of women, onto a train headed for the Mall.

Mirians Aguilar, a Honduran immigrant, stood in the aisle and flashed her best smile. Her husband snapped a picture with his disposable camera. Ms. Aguilar, a baby sitter, had spent a day's earnings - $40 - to have her hair done up in curls for the trip. "When I fix myself up I feel like a new person," she said. Soon a group of women with shaved heads and nose piercings stepped on.

The group got off the train at the Archive-Navy Memorial stop and floated up the long escalator into a new world. Ms. Flores and the others tilted their heads and stared at the columned National Archives. "Is that the White House?" Ms. Flores asked, before quickly shaking her head.

The march soon upstaged the architecture.

"Loco! Loco!" Ms. Orellana squealed. Staring back at her was a woman inside a three-foot-long felt and satin vagina. The Bushwick group gathered around and snapped photos. "These people have no shame!" Ms. Orellana said. "But it's O.K.," Ms. Flores replied, almost to herself.

Mr. Iriarte rolled out a "Make the Road by Walking" banner. At first, the group walked too slowly and out of step. But, prompted by cheers, they fell into stride. "Brava! Brava!" shouted a woman, as she held a sign reading "Another Jewish Lesbian Mom for Choice!"

The Bushwick women smiled back at her and walked on.

-- Simba (smb@aol.com), April 28, 2004

Answers

Here are some pictures from the march. Does this look like Sodom or what? Pro-Abortion rally

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), April 28, 2004.

This is a troubling article. This is the quote that is truly telling:

"I think abortion is killing a life," said Ms. Flores, who left Ecuador 11 years ago. But, she added, "The person who is pregnant should decide whether to do it or not."

This kind of thinking justifies infanticide and euthanasia. If the topic under discussion were something else, people might see how irrational they really are for supporting abortion as a "choice."

Try this statement:

"I think genocide is murder," said Ms. Doe. But, she added, "The government who has to deal with these people should decide whether to do it or not."

Or this one:

"I think segregation is racism and is wrong," said Mr. Doe. But, he added, "The state legislatures should decide whether to do it or not."

Sad.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), April 28, 2004.

Better.

"I think Killing someone that inconveneinces you is murder," said Ms. Doe. But, she added, "The person who has to deal with these people who are inconveneint should decide whether to do it or not.Thier shoudl be no legislation restricting it."

It is, of course, flawed logic. If it is Murder, as she said, the Govenrment SHOULD protect the innocent life that is taken away for callous reasons.The Government restricts all acts of Murder except Abortion.

Infanticide is allowable, becuase we don't want to think about the morality of killign our own offsrpign in their most helpless state.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 28, 2004.

‘Personally Opposed, But...’: Five Pro-Abortion Dodges
By Todd M. Aglialoro.- In that passage from Orthodoxy so familiar that it is almost now cliché, G. K. Chesterton wrote that there are a thousand angles at which a man may fall but only one at which he stands. By this he argued for the unique, enduring character of orthodox Church doctrine, of the one, true, upstanding strand of Right Teaching. Though the same tired heresies may reappear to contest it—mutated, renamed, warmed-over—the old, wild truth remains standing, “reeling but erect.”

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 28, 2004.

I wonder how many of these women know the story of their fellow Latina, Guadalupe Negron, a Honduran immigrant from their own neighborhood. Ms. Negron made the "choice" to have a "safe legal" abortion that was performed by an incompetent in a filthy storefront mill, and she wound up dead, leaving 4 motherless children. This happened in Queens, NY in 1993. There are hundreds of similar stories from the barrio of E. LA and Miami's Little Havana.

-- FJ (freidajamison@yahoomail.com), April 28, 2004.

Abortion has been around for a long time and will stay. No law can stop a woman from finding someone that will perform an abortion on her. To me, the only parts of the equation that can be affected by law are: Should a government pay for abortion and should it's laws promote it? Of course not. The women and providers, who will do it secretly, must be changed one heart at a time.

Can anyone provide a link that shows statistical data on the causes of abortion?

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), April 28, 2004.

If the day ever comes that abortion is outlawed in USA at federal and state level, you will have wall to wall abortion mills sprung up along Canadian and Mexican borders,Dutch abortion ships off east and west coasts and cheap package deals (like Vegas) from all states to the nearest abortion place. The RU486 would be smuggled into the country like cocaine or made in illegal labs. There is no way to stop abortion. You can legislate morality but it wont change peoples heart or determination to break the law.

-- Roseanne (essenmacher45@aol.com), April 28, 2004.

Roseanne- Should a government pay for abortion and should it's laws promote it?

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), April 28, 2004.

A LOT of statistics on abortion are here.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 28, 2004.

Mark

No and no. But what I said still stands. The sad truth.

-- Roseanne (essenmacher45@aol.com), April 28, 2004.

Roseanne, The other inescapable fact is that a LOT of children's lives will be saved. Convience abortions which are made inconvinent will not happen. Read the stat link I posted.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 28, 2004.

Mark and Roseanne, you say we shouldn't have a law against abortion because people determined to abort will do so anyway. In that case what is the point of having ANY law against anything?

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), April 28, 2004.

Peter K. I think you misunderstood my post. I'm 100% with the Pope on this one, capital punishment, stem cell research, etc. I'll call myself obedient to the pope concerning euthenasia.

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), April 28, 2004.

Good on you Mark. What I mean is, what is the difference between what you said about abortion, and someone saying:

"Drug abuse has been around for a long time and will stay. No law can stop a junkie from finding someone that will sell him drugs. To me, the only parts of the equation that can be affected by law are: Should a government pay for drug abuse and should it's laws promote it? Of course not. The junkies and dealers, who will do it secretly, must be changed one heart at a time."

Or:

"Paedophilia has been around for a long time and will stay. No law can stop a paedophile from finding children to perform paedophilia on. To me, the only parts of the equation that can be affected by law are: Should a government pay for paedophilia and should it's laws promote it? Of course not. The paedophiles and children, who will do it secretly, must be changed one heart at a time."

Or substitute in the above any other sin or crime you care to name.

True, we can't legislate against every sin, but surely we need laws against the more serious ones, especially those which infringe basic God-given rights such as the right to life.

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), April 28, 2004.

Peter K- We agree. No abortion. No government money to fund them. I guess the next question is- What would be the punishment for someone breaking pro-life laws? Would the penalty be more severe for an aborter than a euthanizer who was begged to "pull the plug" by a terminal, pain riddled loved one?

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), April 28, 2004.

Normally a court in that case of euthanasia would record a conviction but impose a small or nominal penalty, and the same should apply to a woman who can show that she aborted her child under severe pressure from the father, grandparents or others. But someone who performs large numbers of abortions for profit, should receive a severe penalty.

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), April 28, 2004.

Try switching Abortion with "Slavery" and see if the moral argument holds up... How many anti-Slavery but pro-slave owners were there in the 1850's?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), April 29, 2004.