I'm going to ask this again as a new question in the hope that someone has an answer. Does the Vatican or anyone know what it is doing in China? China set up its "Patriotic Catholic Association" and bishops were ordained in it without papal approval on condition that they forswear all allegiance to or contact with the Holy See or any foreigner. The PCA reputedly endorses China's state-sponsored, and sometimes forcible, contraception, abortion and sterilisation program. We are told that some, though not all, of the schismatic "Patriotic Catholic Association" bishops are recognised by the Holy See. Meanwhile a large number of loyal underground Catholics (who we are told are also still in communion with Rome) have been persecuted for half a century. How does Rome decide which PCA bishops are OK? It can't be because they had any contact with them or they'd be kicked out of the PCA. Have the "chosen ones" abstained from endorsing abortion? Or maybe they are in dioceses where the loyal bishop died or was killed and can't be replaced because of persecution? If so isn't that rubbing salt into the wounds of the loyal Catholics? Their faith must be incredibly strong to stay loyal in these circumstances.

When Archbishop Lefebve ordained four bishops without permission, all five were immediately excommunicated. The deliberately schismatic and probably heretical PCA has ordained 100 bishops without papal approval yet are not excommunicated or even in schism? The situation seems to be the same as England from 1560 to 1850 when the Anglicans claimed to be the true Catholic church in England and the real Catholics were forced underground. The Holy See sure didn't recognise any of the Anglican bishops as Catholic.

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), April 27, 2004

Answers

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-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), April 27, 2004.

I'm going to ask this again as a new question in the hope that someone has an answer. Does the Vatican or anyone know what it is doing in China? China set up its "Patriotic Catholic Association" and bishops were ordained in it without papal approval on condition that they forswear all allegiance to or contact with the Holy See or any foreigner.

{From the limited amount of Informaiton I have at this time, I learned that this Orignisation is merely Cahtolic in Name Only, and is a state fornt designed to try to controle Cahtolcis, and appear liek religious freedom is allowed, though realy servign as a mean of propogatign the states agenda with Catholic Trappings. However, so memembers secretly do commune with Rome, dispite persecution. Form what I know, this si not outright forbidden, but the stae makes sure you are Lpoyal tot hem first.}Zarove

The PCA reputedly endorses China's state-sponsored, and sometimes forcible, contraception, abortion and sterilisation program.

{They have no choice, sinc everyone is made to. Likewise, many arent real Catholcis, btu rather are Dressed to look Catholic so the Chinese Govenment can claim that they have a Cahtolci Prignisation, as well as to controle and maintain the Catholics in the state- sponcered mindset.

However, and I say this asin, some do break the silence with Rome.}- Zarove

We are told that some, though not all, of the schismatic "Patriotic Catholic Association" bishops are recognised by the Holy See.

{Some, but not all, beign the operative point. Those that are recognised are those who risk their lives by remaining in communicaiton qiththe Pope and his officials.}-Zarove

Meanwhile a large number of loyal underground Catholics (who we are told are also still in communion with Rome) have been persecuted for half a century.

{So have all Chrisains,a nd I pray that this will end oen day.}-Zarove

How does Rome decide which PCA bishops are OK? It can't be because they had any contact with them or they'd be kicked out of the PCA.

{They have their own mean of communcation with them, and soem do it even if threatened. This they do inorder to serve the People better,a nd eliveate persecution by creatign a chruch belneith the sights o the states watchful vigilance.}-Zarove

Have the "chosen ones" abstained from endorsing abortion? Or maybe they are in dioceses where the loyal bishop died or was killed and can't be replaced because of persecution?

{See above. Tjose approved are those who, dispite beign threatened, remaine din fll ccommunion with Rome.}-Zarove

If so isn't that rubbing salt into the wounds of the loyal Catholics?

{See above.}-Zarove

Their faith must be incredibly strong to stay loyal in these circumstances.

{I agree.}-Zarove

When Archbishop Lefebve ordained four bishops without permission, all five were immediately excommunicated. The deliberately schismatic and probably heretical PCA has ordained 100 bishops without papal approval yet are not excommunicated or even in schism?

{This is because of the cercumstanes, which makes all the difference n this torbled and oppressed land we are discussing.}-Zarove

The situation seems to be the same as England from 1560 to 1850 when the Anglicans claimed to be the true Catholic church in England and the real Catholics were forced underground.

{False history. Catholics where allowed to worship in 1604 in Britain, just not to hold Poliitcal ofice, and this was designed because a Catholic had attmepted to Kill the King.}-Zarove

The Holy See sure didn't recognise any of the Anglican bishops as Catholic.

{The difference beignthat the Anglican Communion was not in communion with Rome at all and didnt wan tot be. The Catholics in China on the other hand are forced to be removed. The Vatican only recognises them because of the csiuation.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 27, 2004.

Read this "open letter," from the nephew of the late Cardinal Ignatius Kung, of the Cardinal Kung Foundation which supports and publicizes the plight of the underground chinese catholics here and provides a history of the PCA, and how it was immediately condemned by Pope Pius XII and later by Pope John XXIII.

The letter is very disconcerting in many ways. Here for example is an excerpt about PCA seminarians: "In recent years, there have been approximately fifty CPA seminarians and priests studying in Roman Catholic seminaries each year across the United States. This program was organized by the Maryknoll Fathers on behalf of the CPA. The CPA seminarians and priests were given full scholarships covering tuition, room and board from various dioceses. Upon completion of their studies, the CPA seminarians return to China to be ordained, not by the underground Roman Catholic bishops, but by their schismatic CPA bishops. They will serve under these same bishops who are not in communion with the Holy Father."

Here is another excerpt on violation of Canon Law: Even if these priests have made a truthful Profession of Faith, why is it that these priests have not been required to sever their ties with the CPA in China, and more specifically, with their government-approved bishops in China? Is this not a violation of Canon 265 of the Church, according to which every cleric must be incardinated into some particular church, prelature, institute or society that is in communion with the Bishop of Rome? Is this not also a violation of the living communion of the Body of Christ with the Successor of Peter?

So what's the answer: Schismatic or not? According to a Catholic World News report, June 20, 2001, adherents of the CPA "while openly loyal to the government association, secretly pledge allegiance to the Pope." Yet Cardinal Kung spent 30 years in solitary confinement rather than uttering one word dictated to him by his communist persecutors. It would seem that CPA members secretly pldging "allegiance to the Pope" are trying to serve two masters.

We should all pray at least one rosary a month for the persecuted underground catholics in China.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), April 27, 2004.

I'm going to ask this again as a new question in the hope that someone has an answer. Does the Vatican or anyone know what it is doing in China? China set up its "Patriotic Catholic Association"

Yes, the Vatican is well awaire of what is going on in China.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 27, 2004.

Yes, I agree, they do know what's going on. That's what's confusing. It would make more sense if they were completely unaware.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), April 27, 2004.

Thanks Zarove. I didn't mean to ignore that the Protestants are terribly persecuted too. I was just confused with Rome's apparently confused ad hoc policy. Your explanation makes sense I guess, though I still think it can't be any comfort to those who have remained loyal despite everything. And two of your statements seem contradictory:

"some members secretly do commune with Rome, dispite persecution. From what I know, this is not outright forbidden, but the state makes sure you are Loyal to them first"

"Those that are recognised are those who risk their lives by remaining in communicaiton with the Pope and his officials"

If you know about these illegal contacts they're not really covert are they? I know the Commos are pretty stupid but surely they know too? Is there a list of which PCA bishops are OK? Is the Chinese govt content to have these bishops merely PRETEND to sever ties with Rome? I see no other evidence of them relaxing their hostility to religion (even the Falun Gong meditation movement is banned) even though they have relaxed in economic affairs.

Re England, I know that it wasn't illegal just to BE a Catholic for the whole period from 1560 to 1850, but it was for large parts of that time. And even in the periods of relative tolerance there were many legal restrictions on Catholics. My point was that the State wouldn't let Catholics have their own bishops because they had the Anglican bishops whose first allegiance was to the State. Even after the Catholic "emancipation" it caused a huge furore in England when Catholic dioceses were re-erected in 1850. Surely it is also "false history" to claim that everything was hunkydory for English Catholics after 1604, or that they were barred from political office merely because a Catholic had tried to kill the king.

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), April 28, 2004.