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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

The 3 epistles of John present many contrasts of light and darkness. He doesn't leave room for any middle ground-- all or nothing. It is generally believed however, that John was combating gnostics during this period, and thus needed to draw a line between Christianity and this false teaching. My question is, do we take them literally? spiritually? and which ones? all of them? some of them?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004

Answers

Most OSAS scriptures come from John's writings.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

The reason for all the confusion OSAS v. not is because people approach the Bible with their own biases and interpret it the way they wish. "Sola Scriptura" is essentially "Solo Ego" - how can I get the Bible to support my view?

No offense to you, Faith, but I find it rather amusing that you are a Protestant and your email is "faith my way" as if to say that you're approaching your faith your own way rather than God's way. I doubt that you intended this meaning, but it seems that this is the attitude of most Protestants, at least subconsciously.

That's why we need a divine interpreting authority - the Catholic Church - to clarify doctrines in the Bible and arbitrate among theological disagreements. Praise God for preserving His Catholic Church over the centuries, so that the Truth is available to all!

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

TO: Luke and other SS-ists/ PI-ists (Faith, Dave, Kev, Elp??, ...)

Emily is right. is there such a thing as a set of "rules of interpretation" that determine how protestants "should" interpret Scripture.

i'm not going to give it the big "30,000 denominations and rising" heave-ho; but it seems to me that you can only even attempt shortcut the "solo ego" point that Emily rightfully makes by showing an objective standard.

of course, that standard might differ between protestants; and, amongst those protestants sharing a standard, it might be applied "solo ego".

but, to illustrate my point:

Rule#1 assume that Scripture is literal unless context otherwise requires (this way, the miracles are miracles, the parables are parables, the Eucharist is the Echarist,...)

Rule#2 give words their plain meaning (ditto, really)

Rule#3 the Bible is ..... whatever.....

it just sometimes seems to me, as a Catholic looking in from the outside that, on EXTREMELY fundamental issues, its a "Scriptural pick 'n' mix".

Catholics, as Emily righly points out, have THE objective yardstick - - He's called the Holy Ghost. we are 100% consistent with Scripture and Tradition. we see evidence (not always proof) in the Church Fathers. the Holy Spirit gives us our doctrine. Our Lord is physically present in every Church.

and, ultimately, we know a heretic or a schismatic or an apostate when we hear one.

can you really say this?

AND, of course, once you devise those rules------- you gotta show me where they occur in the Bible ;-))

AND you guys gotta start agreeing on something.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 27, 2004.

"No offense to you, Faith, but I find it rather amusing that you are a Protestant and your email is "faith my way" as if to say that you're approaching your faith your own way rather than God's way" - emily

Emily, myway.com is a free email provider (I have one too). In fact, it's a pretty good email provider. I don't think you should be making fun of Faith's email.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 28, 2004.

David,

I'm sorry. My intent was not to make fun of her email. I was just pointing out the irony of that name. You left out the rest of my quote: "I doubt that you intended this meaning, but it seems that this is the attitude of most Protestants, at least subconsciously." It was more of an observation, my own views about how Protestants approach things, rather than an insult to Faith. It just happened to be that she was the one who had that email - it could've been anyone.

Faith, were you offended?

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 28, 2004.

Ok I should have done this earlier but I was led astray on another thread. I'm just going to start in 1 John and make my way from there.

1 John 2:4-5 "Anyone who says, 'I know Him,' but does not obey His teaching is a liar. There is no truth in him. But whoever obeys His Word has the love of God made perfect in him. This is the way to know if you belong to Christ."

Can unbelievers be saved if they obey the Word? Not if you consider that believing and having faith are also commands to obey. Will people who believe in Christ be saved no matter what they do? I believe James asked Kevin in another thread, "How many commands does one have to obey before one is saved?" After one is saved, must one continue to live obediently to maintain salvation? Does this verse imply obedience as "salvation by works" or "salvation by truth"?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 28, 2004.

1 John 2:9-10 "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him."

Is this passage referring to our brothers of flesh and blood or brothers in the Kingdom? Is it possible for a Christian to hate his brother? Assuming that this verse is about fleshly brothers, is it possible for an unbeliever to be in the light if he loves his brother?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 29, 2004.

1 John 15 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

No man can serve two masters. How do we know the difference between fondness and love?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 29, 2004.

That last verse was John 2:15

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 29, 2004.

Hi Luke,

You said: Can unbelievers be saved if they obey the Word? Not if you consider that believing and having faith are also commands to obey.

Well, God is the one who will judge the souls and actions of all people. The Catholic doctrine of invincible ignorance says that it is possible for people to be saved without necessarily knowing specifically about the Christian faith. They instead follow God to the best that they know how. Here is the Scriptural support for this view. What do you think of this, in light of these verses?

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

John 9
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Romans 2
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 29, 2004.

For Emily... Maybe if you read the Bible in today's English--it would become clearer..

Take for example Romans 2:7-16:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self- seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Paul says that those who patiently and persistently do God's will find eternal life...but is he contradicting his previous statement that salvation comes by faith, in Chapter 1:16,17?

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

We are not saved by good deeds Emily. We are not saved by the Law..,but when we commit our lives to God--we want to please Him and do His will.

People are not condemned for what they do not know--but for what they do with what they do know. Those who know God's written Word and His law will be judged by them., but even those who have never seen a Bible, still know right from wrong. Paul is not saying that there are some who follow God's law and are saved even though they don't know God. His point is that there is no one who can claim to follow the law perfectly. These people will be judged because they don't even keep those standards that their own consciences dictated.

The Bible tells us that there is no one who is good--no, not one., except God. Therefore., the idea that there are people who can save themselves without knowing Jesus by being good--is unbiblical...

If you read on in Romans., you will see that Paul continues to argue that all stand guilty before God.., and after describing the fate of the unbelieving pagan.., he moves to that of the religiously priviledged. Despite their knowledge--they too are guilty because they have refused to live by their beliefs.

No one is righteous...Romans 3:9-12

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

And Paul concludes that there is only one way to be saved:

Romans 3:21-24

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 29, 2004.

Luke,

I think I John was used against Gnostics, like you said.

The Greek Style of one John is not the same as 2 and 3 John. Also, one is called from John, the other 2 from the Presbyter.

Here is an interesting link I started at the Catholic Forum about I John and the Gospel of John.

Is it possible that the Gospel of John was composed with material from the First Letter of John?

Here is an excerpt: John 1

The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it. 6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[2] 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[3] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[4] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Compare with I John 1 John 1

The Word of Life

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[1] joy complete.

Walking in the light

5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[2] sin.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 06, 2003.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Aobu

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 29, 2004.

Faith said: For Emily... Maybe if you read the Bible in today's English--it would become clearer..

Actually, I do. My normal Bible reading is New International Version and New American Bible. I have this passage pretty much memorized in NIV. I also use www.biblegateway.com frequently to look up passages in all of their translations for comparison, to better get a sense of the meaning. My purpose in posting KJV is for several reasons:

1. Most Protestants accept the KJV as authoritative.

2. Some Protestants believe that the KJV is the only accurate version in English.

3. It's a good translation, IMO.

4. KJV is public domain, so I don't need to be concerned with copyright issues.

Faith said: Take for example Romans 2:7-16:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self- seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Paul says that those who patiently and persistently do God's will find eternal life...

Amen. (splitting up the post so it's not too large)

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 29, 2004.

Faith said: but is he contradicting his previous statement that salvation comes by faith, in Chapter 1:16,17?

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

We are not saved by good deeds Emily. We are not saved by the Law..,but when we commit our lives to God--we want to please Him and do His will.

Amen again. When did I ever say that we are saved (justified) by good deeds or the law? Never. Because we are not. And the Catholic Church does not teach this either. I think the reason that we are getting confused here is that Catholics and Protestants have a different understanding of salvation. Here is the Catholic view of salvation that I posted on another thread, as a recap:

We are justified (initial salvation) by grace alone. The process of salvation is continuing to follow Christ with our whole lives through faith AND works, both of which can only be done by the grace of God. We attain final salvation if we (by God's grace) persevere until the end. So essentially, salvation is by God's grace alone, which manifests itself in our lives.

Faith said: People are not condemned for what they do not know-- but for what they do with what they do know. Those who know God's written Word and His law will be judged by them., but even those who have never seen a Bible, still know right from wrong.

Amen.

Faith said: Paul is not saying that there are some who follow God's law and are saved even though they don't know God.

Faith, you cannot judge whether a person will go to heaven or not, or whether a certain type of behavior or submission to God means that one is saved or not. That is only for God to judge. Look at the verse again "their consciences also bearing witness, their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them"

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 29, 2004.

Faith said: His point is that there is no one who can claim to follow the law perfectly. These people will be judged because they don't even keep those standards that their own consciences dictated.

Amen.

Faith said: The Bible tells us that there is no one who is good-- no, not one., except God.

Amen.

Faith said: Therefore., the idea that there are people who can save themselves without knowing Jesus by being good--is unbiblical...

Faith, I never said that people can save themselves. Even without knowing Jesus those people are still saved by God's grace (see the Catholic definition of salvation that I posted above). Please review the verses I showed you. In John, we see that those people are not guilty of sin before they hear Jesus' word! Thus, God will judge them according to what they know and how they follow Him. And in Romans, their consciences bear witness, both to accuse and defend them. Please explain how these verses can be true in your view.

Faith said: If you read on in Romans., you will see that Paul continues to argue that all stand guilty before God.., and after describing the fate of the unbelieving pagan.., he moves to that of the religiously priviledged. Despite their knowledge--they too are guilty because they have refused to live by their beliefs.

No one is righteous...Romans 3:9-12

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

I am not seeing how this contradicts my view? Faith, the Catholic Church does not teach that anyone can work their way to heaven. As I said before, even those who are saved by invincible ignorance are still saved by the grace of God. The state of their souls is for God to judge, not us.

And Paul concludes that there is only one way to be saved:

Romans 3:21-24

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Amen. We are all saved by God's grace through Christ's redemption of our sins. This is the Catholic teaching. Jesus' sacrifice is the only way to salvation. This does not negate my view of invincible ignorance. I am arguing that those who have never heard of Jesus can still be saved by God's grace that He offers to everyone. They can still believe in God and follow God's laws that are written on their hearts in order to serve God. God will judge them according to what they know (see the John verses that I posted).

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 29, 2004.

The whole point Emily--is that people cannot follow even the law written on their hearts. And even if they did--if they have not acknowledged God, they cannot be saved.

We are hopelessly sinful by nature and all are guilty before God.

So how are these people who supposedly don't know Jesus, how are they being saved if they can't even follow their own conscience--knowing right from wrong but doing only that which is wrong.

Paul has clearly demonstrated that no one is good.

So how are they following God?

The answer is that they are not following God--and they stand condemned by their sinful nature.. That is Paul's point. The Bible says that the gospel has gone out to all the world and that we are without excuse. We stand condemned.

It is by *faith* is Jesus that we are saved., and that is why Jesus commanded that we preach the Word to the ends of the earth. Jesus is God's grace. Salvation is apart from the law...

Yes., God does judge us by what we know. If we know Him--we are judged perfect in Christ., if we don't acknowledge Him we remain guilty.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 30, 2004.

1 John 2:21 "I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth."

1 John2:26,27 "I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him."

I mentioned on another forum that most teachings today are pulled from Judaism or Christianity, or both. This includes cults. But I suppose John is basicaly saying that false teachings aren't based on truth coming from the word, but upon Satan sowing seeds of corruption. These seeds were (and are) probably infiltrating the church by means of false teachers, hence John's need to inform the church (and us) that by their anointing they had knowledge of the truth, and they didn't need someone to tell them what really was truth after they had already received it.

Or maybe everyone can just "interpret" truth the way they want to.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

1 John 2:29 "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

Anyone???

1 John 3:5,6"But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. "

Are Christians capable of sin? I would assume that John is saying we cannot "morally" sin, even if we have the ability. No one is a christian who lives in sin? or continues in sin as if he never knew or seen him?

1 John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

Just throwing things out mind you.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.