rules versus discretion

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One comment I have made in the past is that in my experience the Sola Scriptura type churches that I have attended never preached the whole Bible, only selective parts of the Bible. In addition, what was preached was solely at the discretion of the pastor. Catholics are different in that regard, those of us who are Catholics (or attended a Catholic mass) all heard the same Gospel reading this morning (John 21:1-19). The advantage of this is that the Gospel we hear preached is not subject to the bias of some individual pastor. Those who follow the idea of Sola Scriptura seem to believe that nobody has the authority to tell anyone else what to do. So my question is how do you guys ensure that a representative sample of the Bible and preached on in your services and minimize the problem of the individual biases of the Pastor? That is should there be rules as to what the Pastor can preach on in a given week, or should that be solely up to his discretion?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), April 25, 2004

Answers

I personally have found that when the Pastor seeks God, and hears from God, we never go wrong. What is the attention span of most? I have heard it to be about 10 - 15 minutes. To expound upon the Word of God is a great thing for the hearers. The Pastor is governed by God. We, as the people of God, should make sure the Word of God is being taught correctly. This presents a challenge, we must then READ for ourselves. We must search the scriptures also for Jesus instructed us to do so. I respect the fact that Catholics all hear the same message upon the same day though too. It shows unity. However, if most Pastors, Preachers, Teachers are seeking God, I do believe that most are in unity also. Hmmm, makes you think. Thanks James.

-- favorite amy grant song (In@a.lil while), April 25, 2004.

As a Catholic--I can't remember a message being preached. It may have changed by now, though.

Reciting Scripture verbatum is not the same as hearing it come to life and mean something relevant in today's living.

I just remember church as being robotically the same when I was Catholic.

But now I love going to church

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 25, 2004.


as it happens, my priest brought the Scripture to life.

Eugenio Pacelli -- remember him?

...or Israel Zolli?

Pacelli will, at some point in the future, become recognised as one of the world's true heroes -- long after all those truth-twisters have turned to dust. the history of the 20th century still needs to be recorded accurately. this is however happening now.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 25, 2004.


Faith says:

"As a Catholic--I can't remember a message being preached. It may have changed by now, though."

My Pastor is an excellent preacher, so is our Deacon. It may have been a while since you have been in a Catholic Church though. But, the answer is yes, a message is preached. "Reciting Scripture verbatum is not the same as hearing it come to life and mean something relevant in today's living."

No doubt Faith that it is important to hear good preaching, but I don't think its most important, because preaching is human based. It is also important to hear the Word of God. As it says in Romans 10:17 "faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." Faith can come, even if there is dull and uninspired preaching. What is most important however is that the Gospel is proclaimed.

"I just remember church as being robotically the same when I was Catholic."

I imagine that if you are not in Church with a mindset that you are there to worship God, it can seem pretty robotic and boring. However, if you know the significance of the parts of the liturgy and realize that you are in church to worship God, then to me at least it never seems robotic. Let me give you one example. We begin each Mass with a penitential rite, where we recall our sins and pray for God's mercy and forgiveness. When I was a Baptist, we never started a service by acknowledging our sinfulness and asking God's forgiveness. It seems to be contradictory to say we come together to worship God, but then we never explicitly deal with the fact that we are all sinners and need God's forgiveness. I myself can't see how one could come to worship without that. My point is that what you might see as robotic, I see as an integral part of worship. Certainly, there are many churches that have exciting worship services, and I might enjoy them. However, worship is not about what I enjoy, its about the worship and adoration that I give to God. Sorry for my longwindedness.

"But now I love going to church"

So do I.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), April 25, 2004.


Faith,

I have at some point in my adult life (relatively short, considering that I am 22) regularly attended a number of types of churches, including: 2 Nazarene, lively Baptist, 2 Presbyterian, Episcopal, Free Methodist (the nature of being a searching college student, lol). I have also visited numerous other types of churches, but these ones I regularly attended for an extended period of time, like at least a college semester.

Now I have begun regularly attending the Catholic Church, and let me tell you, it is the most beautiful, reverent experience of my life, every week at mass. I wish I could go every day. The Catholic mass far surpasses any other worship service in my eyes, and I feel like I've gained a taste of heaven.

As for your experiences, I don't doubt what you say. My parents were raised Catholic and converted to Protestant with similar experiences. However, I believe much has to do with you attitude in approaching God. If you did not have the right attitude, of course you would think it was boring. You did not yet know the real Jesus, who changes your life and mine, and changes our entire perspective on things.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 25, 2004.



oh I forgot, 1 non-denominational, ecumenical effort, too

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 25, 2004.

I agree that the Mass can appear to be a beautiful thing--but it is what they believe that goes against the Scriptures.

Many religions and even pagan worship services can do things that seem beautiful--but does that mean that they are worshiping the truth?

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 25, 2004.


"Many religions and even pagan worship services can do things that seem beautiful--but does that mean that they are worshiping the truth?"

I agree entirely Faith. Before I returned to the Catholic Church, I attended a Baptist Church that had a beautiful, albeit incomplete worship service. They had wonderful music and the pastor was wonderful to listen to. The only problem was that the Pastor was wrong. Now he was not quite as wrong as most Baptist pastors (he even quoted Henri Nouwen, can you imagine that a Baptist quoting a Catholic priest!), but the fact is he was wrong in how he interpreted the Bible. I couldn't stay at that church, I had to move to one where the truth was preached. So Faith, you are right, Beautiful is not necessarily right.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), April 25, 2004.


It is my experience that Baptist's come as close to the biblical truth revealed in Scripture as just about anyone. Certyainly the Catholic Church is too paganized in its rites and festivals and worship of a queen of heaven--something you cannot find in the Bible except where this practice is condemned by God.

"But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food., we were well off, and saw no trouble" (Jer. 44:17).

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 25, 2004.


Faith you claim that we worship a queen of heaven, which the Bible calls a sin. Let me inform you of something, the Catholic Church also teaches that to Worship anyone except God is a sin. Allow me to quote from the Catechism:

2113 "Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."[44] Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"[45] refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.[46]"

That is the truth of what we believe. Now of course we honor Mary, which of course all Christians should, unless you believe that Mary was chosen at random to bring Jesus into the world.

Faith, are you interested in the truth or your perception of the truth? You really should do your homework before you make such accusations.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), April 25, 2004.



James, you can tell Faith that we don't worship Mary until you're blue in the face, and she will still insist that we do!! You can quote the Catechism on and on ad nauseum . . . it will mean nothing to her.

Emily, I SOOOO understand your feelings about the Mass, as I heartily concur. I have been to numerous types of churches, Baptist, Word of Faith, Wesleyan, Calvary Chapels, and NOTHING compares to the splendor of the Mass! You would probably enjoy reading Scott Hahn's "The Lamb's Supper." It goes through all of the symbolism of the Mass and especially how it refers specifically to Revelations (Chapt 17 I think) depicting the Lamb's Supper in heaven. That's why you feel you've tasted heaven because YOU HAVE!!!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), April 25, 2004.


Gail,

You are right, and I have debated with Faith enough that I should have known better.

Now, getting back to our regular topic, let me ask Faith a question. Who should decide what the Pastor preaches on, should there be a schedule which requires the pastor cover a representative selection of the Bible, or is it something totally up to the whims of the pastor?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), April 25, 2004.


I think that each church is responsible for deciding how they want to preach God's Word--And they should seek guidance from the Holy Spirit through prayer and listen to the needs of the people in the church.

The gospel need to be preached..and every book in the New Testament should be covered., and this can be done by coordinating the New Testament with the Old Testament., so that the entire Bible is covered in a year's time.,and then round again.

That's how my church seems to work anyway.

For example--Today we covered marriage and divorce using Matthew 19 and referencing Deuteronomy 24, Genesis 1 ., and back in the new testament to 1 Corinthians 7....

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 25, 2004.


James, While it may seen great to have bible passage(s) or topics predetermined to preach on, there are also disadvantages. With predetermined bible passages only, there is little guarentee that every sermon preached on that topic will end up having the same or similar topic attatched to it. When it is bible passages and topics together that are predetermined, that (I greatly assume) could be very restrictive. First, a pastor could see many more or many better bible verses to relate to a topic, or there is the possibility that a pastor might not put quite as much efford (though he might try) into the sermon as he might if he had picked the topic and bible verses himself. But there is really only one disadvantage (I can see) from a pastor picking their own topic and bible verse(s) to preach on. There is the slight possibility that they might simply preach on their favourite bible verses. But the reason I think this is not as likely as one might think? Because eventually the pastor might run out of topics anc bible verses to preach on (the pastor would either realize that they no longer have bible verses to preach on, that they have no bible verses to use in their sermons, or they might have it pointed out that while their sermon was good, the topic they preached on/ the bible verses used were either used/ done before, or have been done too often). I think what is a good idea is for suggestions of bible verses and/ or topics for the week to be given, so that if a pastor runs out of ideas of what to preach, or what bible verses to read, they will have something.

-- Jessica (babidayz@hotmail.com), July 10, 2004.

Hi Jessica, you said "Because eventually the pastor might run out of topics anc bible verses to preach on." Yeah, but then he just starts back over at the beginnining . . . about every couple of years!

The Mass, if realized in truth, transcends one from this earthly sphere right into the heavenlies. It's awesome if one really loves Jesus and is really their to worship Him. The trick, though, is putting your heart, mind and soul into it. We have three scripture readings at every mass which usually gives the priest ample space to "move with the Spirit" so to speak.

James, do you ever listen to Father John Corapi on EWTI. He's as great a preacher as any I've heard ANYWHERE! And what a testimony he has!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), July 11, 2004.



Gail,

I don't get EWTN here at home, although I did hear him on EWTN when I was visiting my parents. From the one show I watched, he was excellent. The EWTN has some audio's of him that can be downloaded. I think I will download a few when I get a chance.

Thanks for the suggestion!

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), July 11, 2004.


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