I know this is a very difficult and unpopular subject to bring up on a Christian bulletin board. However, when I attended two church services the Sunday after this show aired, I was surprised to see that a few ministers made reference to the show and this subject in their sermons. Last Monday, Oprah Winfrey aired a show called "Men Living on the D.L" or "down low". The show focused on the phenomena of the predominantly African American male population who are referred to as "MSM's" or "Men who have sex with men". The problem is that these men do not consider themselves gay or homosexual. The even bigger problem is that these "MSM's" often have "noncommitted" relationships with married men and heterosexual women, often at the same time. I became aware of the MSM population after attending the Balm in Gilead Black Church HIV/AIDS Conference two years ago, so I was not surprised when I heard Oprah make reference to MSM's. What really disturbed me about the show was that the MSM who went public regarding this phenomena, a Mr. J.L. King, on the Oprah show stated that he has been successful at locating other MSM's or African American men on the "down low" in the Black Church. He went as far as to stated that in his estimation, over 68% of African American men are "living on the down low". Mr. J.L. King also stated that many men "living on the down low" "preach in our pulpits every Sunday", and he has even devoted an entire chapter of his book to the "down low phenomena in the African American church". He attributes the rampid spread of HIV/AIDS in the African American community to this "down-low" activity. Oprah even talked with students at the historically-black college Johnson C. Smith and some students talked about the rapid spread of HIV/AIDS on their campuses and the "trendiness" of "down low" activity on campus. In the AME church, some churches have begun the discussion of HIV/AIDS already, many with the attitude that "this only happens to gay, white males or extremely promiscuous people". How important do you think it is to raise this "MSM" "down low" issue in our churches? Is it important, unimportant, or, do you think we should just ignore it? I know it is difficult to discuss. However, I am just looking out for my people. God's blessings to you all.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2004

Answers

A friend of mine sent me the transcript from the show, which includes a copy of the New York Times, August 3, 2003 article, "Double Lives on the Downlow". It was very disturbing to me. However, one thing that was mentioned in the article was that the reason why the black church will not discuss the issue of HIV/AIDS, much less the issue of this "DL" behavior is because "...the black community is simply too homophobic: from womanizing rappers to moralizing preachers, much of the black community views homosexuality as a curse against a race.." I guess, once we get beyond our homophobia regarding this issue, and once we realize that HIV/AIDS affects all people--gay and straight-- black, white, asian, native american and hispanic, then we will begin to address these issues in our churches.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2004

Sister Lewis,

Thank you for your comments!

In case everyone DOESN'T know it, our people represent the FASTEST GROWING and LARGEST segment of new AIDS cases.

HIV/AIDS is slowly destroying the population of Mother Africa. There are strains over their that are resistant to all combinations of drugs. Combined with the high cost of drugs, people cannot get treated, and they are not being isolated, hence the rapid spread.

Let us now turn the microscope to the U.S. We have the knowledge, we have the technology, we have the information. We lack INTEGRITY, DISCPLINE and COMMON SENSE.

Integrity would keep MSMs (and WSWs) SINGLE. Discipline would tell us ALL to "keep it in our pants until we marry" or at least "wrap it up before you use it". Common Sense would say that if you're not sure someone's infected, assume they are and leave it alone. Common sense would say that if you are having high-risk sex, you have no business exposing your family to the plethora of diseases that result. Common sense says that if you know you are homosexual (and I know that some of the MSMs don't think they are, but the Kinsey Scale would place you at least at 2, and your behavior clearly demonstrates that you are at minimum bisexual), you do not have the right to hide that fact from your fiancee. They have the right to know, and you have the responsibility to inform them prior to proposing marriage. If they still want to marry you, so be it. But you do not have the right to make the choice for them. Be a man.

In short, IMHO, a "Down Low Brother" is messing with fire; in addition to breaking Levitical law and Romans 1, they are spitting in the face of God by violating the marriage covenant. It's time for them to grow up, and admit what and who they are.

To the MSMs/DLBs reading this:

Don't get mad at me; I didn't out you, and I don't hate you. I spend too much time counseling families whose lives have been crushed and torn by this sort of behavior. I'm tired, and so are they. The problem is yours; ask God to help you deal with it. Stop hurting innocent people.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2004

Amen, Rev. Harper!!!

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2004

Amen, Amen and Amen Rev. Harper. Your post should be permanently posted somewhere for all to read. It truly is a dangerous time for single women and women in general. Outing of this situation is a good thing..

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2004

I read a comment by an African Doctor involved in the treatment of HIV/AIDS. He said that 95% AIDS transmission is through annal sex, and he considers it a disease spread by homosexuals. I teach complete my people to completely abstain from any form of sex outside marriage. Then before you marry, make sure that the person you wish to marry is NOT infected. If that requires testing, so be it. Then both parties MUST be faithful to each other. If the marriage fails or a spouse dies, return to the celibate life. Some tell me this is not realistic but it is the life that Jesus would have us live. Others say that if you did not practice celibacy, you do not have the moral authority to teach others to remain celibate until marriage. I disagree with that premise. We must teach what is right regardless of what we did. I'm seventy and I don't know for sure what DL is. I heard about this on a radio station that caters to black folk in the DFW community. If you listen to the programming, they find nothing wrong with pre- martial and extra-marital sex. AIDS can be wiped out in two generations using the above methods. But what do we do about those who will not adhere to this? Perhaps we must resort to isolating those individuals who are currently infected and engage in behavior that will continue to transmitt the disease to others.

BE Blessed

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2004

Interesting. Does anyone have any current data about this so- called "Down Low" phenomenon? Did Oprah cite any statistics suggesting this sexual menace is indeed a public health issue in black communities? Absent hard data one can only engage in speculation and anecdotal evidence. Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence does not confirm reality. QED

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2004

Essence Magazine did an article on Black men on the down low not too long ago. (Sorry, I cannot remember the issue.) It was quite disturbing to me that our young men would carry themselves in such a manner. In fact, a young man was speaking on the Tavis Smiley show about the same subject as he was a participant and his actions never bothered him. A recent episode of Law and Order dealt with the same subject. Our women must be warned about these behaviors. It happens among married men as well.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2004

Brother Dickens:

Growing HIV/AIDS research is being devoted not necessarily to the "down low" phenomenon, but it is focusing on this population of predominantly African American men who refer to themselves as "MSM's" (Men who have sex with men). What's particularly unusual about this group is that they do not consider themselves "gay" certainly not "homosexual" nor "bisexual". THey do not accept cultural labels at all. They just "do what they feel". I have run across a few articles, one within the last few years in the Journal of Pastoral Care. This was about a year ago, and do recall qualitative data included in the article. If I locate the citations, I will send them to you.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2004

Brothers and Sister,

Let me offer this caution. Our people, especially our men, are rarely done any favors by the popular media. The mere suggestion that some 68% of Black men are MSM is both ridiculous and slanderous. Do not be deceived by the hype. An old song from my youth comes to mind - "Believe only half of what you see, some and none of what you hear." Rather than debate the issue as though it were true, how about challenging the assertion and requiring those who would perpetuate this lie to produce their evidence and prove their claims. Sexual perversions of every kind have been ascribed to Black men. In my opinion, this is just the latest in a long list, and is just as scandalous as the last one. As a Black Man I am offended at my brother's and sister's casual acceptance of this slander as truth. No wonder we can't get no respect!

In Love,

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2004

Brother Ron,

I was not agreeing with Mr. J.L. King. I was merely the statistic that was cited in the Oprah transcript. I personally do not "agree" or "disagree" with brother J.L. King. Whether 68% of African American men are living on the "down low" or 15%, the point is that there is an MSM population in our community, and there is a community of men that live "on the down low" and, whether you are offended by the notion, it is a serious issue that needs to be discussed. Whether we are offended or not, African Americans are the highest percentage of new HIV/AIDS cases, and many of these cases can be contributed to this population. It is a very serious issue, one that needs to be addressed in our churches.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2004

Sister Lewis,

Please forgive my ignorance. I don't make light of the HIV/AIDS problem. Because the problem is so pervasive, its likely that we've all lost as the result of this insidious plague. However, the citations were made to sound 'authoritative' and 15% is a long way from 68% and yes it does make a big difference. Should we address this in our churches? Don't we teach the Scriptures? If it is as you say and African Americans are the highest percentage of new HIV/AIDS cases, then we are either teaching the wrong people, or we're doing a miserable job of teaching the Word. Sister, I would welcome the FACTS. Its enough that Oprah is on prime-time television, how about let's keep her out of the church.

In Love,

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2004

Brother Woods,

It's not only your ignorance that bothers ME; it's your arrogance.

Do DLBs exist? Yes. Are they in our churches? Yes. Are they in the pulpit? Yes. For you to think that they don't is more than ignorance; it's stupidity.

As to the FACTS:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/afam.htm

According to the 2000 Census, African Americans make up 12.3% of the population of the United States. However, they have accounted for 39% — more than 347,000 — of the more than 886,000 estimated AIDS cases diagnosed since the beginning of the epidemic. By the end of December 2002, more than 185,000 African Americans had died with AIDS. In case you're keeping score, that's more than 15, but less than 68.....

More FACTS:

African Americans accounted for about 21,000, or 50 percent, of the more than 42,000 estimated AIDS cases diagnosed among adults in the United States.

The AIDS diagnosis rate among African Americans was almost 11 times the rate among whites. African-American women had a 23 times greater diagnoses rate than white women. African- American men had almost a 9 times greater rate of AIDS diagnosis than white men.

Over 162,000 African Americans were living with AIDS in the United States. They accounted for 42% of all people in the United States living with AIDS.

Do I need to go on? It's a shame that OUR people HAVE to watch Oprah to get the information. Abstinence and Sexual Morality SHOULD be preached in our pulpits. It should be burned onto the hearts and minds of our children. So, until I see YOU doing something about it, get off Oprah's back!

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2004

Sorry, but you really hit a nerve....

Let's play "connect the dots"....

Again from the CDC:

The leading cause of HIV infection among African-American men is sexual contact with other men, followed by injection drug use and heterosexual contact.

The leading cause of HIV infection among African-American women is heterosexual contact, followed by injection drug use.

So....women aren't getting AIDS through homosexual contact; they're getting it from men. To get it from men, those men either used dirty needles, or had sex with other men. Statistically, it's sex with other men.

So, no matter what they are calling themselves, DLBs, MSMs, gay, bi, or straight, their behavior is destroying our race more violently than any white person ever did or could. They are truly the sell- outs of our race. Spiritually, they have let Satan use them to steal, kill and destroy innocents.

Refute THAT!

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2004

Ok Rev. Harper,

Guilty! Ignorant, Arrogant and Stupid. You have a knack for stating the obvious. That said, I'll first address your question. Do DLBs exist? Are they in our churches? Are they in the pulpit? I Don't Know - I've never knowingly met one and no one has never confessed in my hearing to being so inclined. Now to your statistics. The stats you site are AIDS cases by race - with blacks comprising 54% of AIDS/HIV case and Whites 32% of the total 886,000 cases diagnosed. If you would have taken the time to read the posts, you would have read that the original poster suggested that somewhere between 15% and 68% of Black men were MSM. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT? Let's do the numbers...12.3% of the American population is Black according to your stats. Assuming there are 250,000,000 (a conservative estimate) people in the U.S. then that means there are 31,000,000 Black people. If half of that population are men, then 2,500,000 (or 15%) are MSM, worse case 21,100,000 (or 68%) are MSM. DO YOU BELIEVE either of those numbers?

This discussion was not about the percentage of Blacks living with HIV/AIDS, it was about MSMs and that is what I am commenting on. But as for your lament about ignorant Black folk who have to get their information from Oprah, you can check that nonsense at Oprah's back door and label it garbage. Black folk are smarter than you obviously think they are.

Lastly, you want to preach abstinence and sexual morality? How about preaching the WORD! Its in there!

In Love,

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2004

Thank you Rev. Harper for your comments and your stats. Brother Harris, you certainly do have a right to your opinion. The whole MSM, "Men on the downlow" issue is a very, very controversial topic. I started the post with those very words; however, it is just a topic that was not only raised on the Oprah show, but in the Journal of Pastoral Care, in the New York Times, on the Tavis Smiley Show (who, by the way, frequents our AME Churches on the West Coast) and at the International Balm in Gilead Black Church HIV/AIDS Conference. If you would like to keep Oprah out of the church, I am sure she doesn't mind. She's a Billionaire. However, millions upon millions of our members are keeping her in our churches because some (not all) of the topics she raises on her show are valid. The issue is not about Oprah, nor about the 68% statistic. Let's not get skewed by the 68% percentage that an out-of-the-closet man on the downlow cited. He doesn't work for the CDC, and I doubt if he even conducted a grant-funded study to find out the real statistics. The REAL issue is HIV/AIDS. I have a really hard time believing the HIV/AIDS statistics that the CDC cites for the Black Community. And, when I get angry about it, another friend of mine's friend dies from AIDS. Or, a good friend of mine gets diagnosed with the disease. If you want to blame the HIV/AIDS pandemic on what we HAVEN'T done in our churches, then that's fine. The purpose of my original post was to launch into a discussion---not about whether or not 68% of our men are on the down-low, but whether or not HIV/AIDS and this behavior --among many behaviors---should be discussed in our churches, and as Rev. Harper so eloquently put it--it does need to be discussed in our churches. If you are mad about J.L. King's 68% statistic--be mad and while you are getting angry, 10 married, monogomous, African American women who think their husbands are the same way in our community are dying from HIV/AIDS. 20 college students attending our Black colleges are being diagnosed due to their ignorance or their desire to be "trendy". What good is anger doing? Nothing. As an African American, heterosexual woman, I would never admit to sleeping with a woman from time to time, so if you actually think a big-burly "heterosexual" African American man is going to admit to sleeping with a man from time to time, you are certainly deluding yourself. This "J.L. King" guy who was on Oprah was just one person who bought this thing to light. J.L. King probably isn't his real name. The "men on the down low" phenomena, in my view, will just prompt us to be more frank in our discussions of sexuality in the church. It's not about point fingers or pointing blame, it's about being open in our churches about sexuality. So, please. Let's wake up? Okay? I'd strongly suggest that you attend the next Balm in Gilead HIV/AIDS Black Church Conference. Their website is http://www.balmingilead.org. You will return much more enlightened. In love, Sis. Lewis

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Sister Lewis,

AIDS/HIV is neither a new or closet discussion in the Black community. How could it be? The numbers themselves attest to the reality and most if not all of us in the community have lost someone or know someone who has lost someone to this epidemic. From the lowest points in the community (as evidenced by clean needle programs and condums) to the halls of world power (initiatives for Africa and Haiti and massive marches on Washington) AIDS/HIV information, including info on high risk behavior; most affected ethnic groups (us); the growing world-wide numbers and avoidance information - is out there in the public domain. There is no mystery about AIDS/HIV except how to cure it. Can we do more? Surely, and so we should. But rather than providing yet another lecture on the topic, I suggest attention be turned to root - systemic reasons for its prevalence in our community and find ways to turn the tide.

This brings me to the MSM, DLB question. It seems to me that you assert that the MSM, DLB is a root cause of the problem. That Black men, and their immoral, perverted sexual practices in the form of MSM, DLB, is the reason this disease is running rampant. Assuming there are such things as MSM and DLBs I would tend to agree that they would indeed contribute to the problem. But when you state statistics like over 68% of Black men are MSM/DLB - whether you believe them or not - you had better be ready for a challenge. You may not be intentionally pointing a finger - but you do none-the- less. You point straight at MSM/DLB as a cause and if the number is anywhere near the stat you state - 68% of Black Men - then its not a far stretch to making Black men the major cause! You are wise to distance yourself from J.L. King.

Let's be adult here. Surely, every form and fashion of sexual preference can be found among our peoples. Those of a perverted persuasion are but a fraction of our number. However, those who practice immoral behavior - as Christians would count immoral - are in far greater numbers and herein lies the problem. Its not a question of perverted Black men tricking and deceiving the married and monogomous Black woman - but rather, the epidemic in our community is about promiscuity (women and men) run amuck (there is no fear of God before their eyes) even in the face of a killer disease. Unless and until we keep our pants zipped and our legs closed, we can expect to be decimated by this and every other sexually transmitted disease.

Lastly, my challenge to this post is well-intentioned. I don't believe you would want black women, black men, black children or the majority and other communities to think that some rediculous percentage of black men are MSM/DLB, so please consider your stats and words more carefully. In one pass - intentionally or not - your language managed to indict black men, the black pulpit, and the black church of high wickedness, while simultaneously exonerating the New York Times, J.L. King, and Oprah. Its true, HIV/AIDS is a serious problem in our community. Let's get to work on that and give no ground to the psyco-babble, media-hype.

In Love, In Christ,

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

I am an information disseminator. If you think that recapping a program is incriminating the black church, black people and the pulpit, well then I guess we are all guilty. Until a more reputable study has been conducted regarding this issue, the 68% statistic is just one man's take on this issue. The information I shared on this board was shared on a television program that was aired towards millions of people all over the world. And, in addition, many of your fellow clergymen mentioned the television show--and the purported statistics, for two Sunday's straight in local AME churches. I do not incriminate black men, the black church, nor the pulpit. I am a proud member of the black church as well as a seminary-trained clergy person. I am also the founder of an HIV/AIDS ministry. Does your church have an HIV/AIDS ministry, which will do the job of disseminating truthful statistics? If not, then we all have a lot of work to do. We live in a world of information overload, and despite the fact that there is much information on HIV/AIDS that is disseminated, that doesn't mean that the seriousness of HIV/AIDS is getting across to the masses of people in our community. You attitude towards this touchy issue is quite typical. I am certainly glad that my post has sparked your interest and much conversation. Hopefully you are talking as much about this issue among your collegues and at your church.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

God bless you brothers and sisters:

I've been following this posting, and in the meantime I found an interesting article, citing a joint-study conducted by the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Centers for Disease Control regarding this "MSM" issue. The article is entitled "How Homophobia Affects Your Sexual Health" (http://www.bet.com/articles/1,,c13gb2684- 3346,00.html). There is a question/answer section of the article, which states:

Sexual Orientation

Men who have sex with men (MSM) are estimated to account for more than 40% of all new HIV infections, and approximately 60% of new HIV infections among men. While White MSM continue to account for more than one in four AIDS diagnoses, in 1998, the number of MSM of color diagnosed with AIDS surpassed, for the first time, the number of White MSM's living with AIDS. Heterosexuals account for about one in three new HIV infections and 75% of new HIV infections are among women.

Q: What is the stigma attached to HIV/AIDS and homosexuality?

A: Here is a fact we've all known about AIDS from the beginning: men who have sex with other men run a particularly high risk of infection. In order for prevention strategies to be effective, MSM (that's short for "men who have sex with men") have to actively protect themselves by using condoms, getting regular HIV tests, and discussing their past sexual histories with all of their intimate partners, male and female. Yes, studies show that some MSM also have female sex partners, sometimes wives or girlfriends.

This is where the stigma part comes in. If you live in a community that's not always tolerant of homosexuality, talking about your past same-sex partners is about as comfortable as, oh, say, showing up for work naked. But keeping silent and skipping that talk can lead all too easily to skipping condoms, and skipping condoms is exactly how HIV gets spread. There you have it: from stigma to HIV infection, in just a few deadly steps.

Q: So what do we know about homophobia in the African-American community?

A: Recent research has shown that African-American MSM are less likely than other MSM to regard themselves as gay. To be specific, a CDC-sponsored study of 8,780 MSM with HIV or AIDS found that 24% of African-American MSM identified themselves as heterosexual, compared with 6% of Whites. It's hard to pin down the exact sources of Black MSM's reluctance to be identified as "gay" -- they're clearly cultural, historical and complex. Here's how Jesse Jackson sees it: "Young gay men of African descent . . . may feel that they must choose between being gay and being Black. This schism is not only painful but in the case of HIV can also be deadly."

In addition to a lack of partner-to-partner communication, the stigma of homosexuality can also result in increased feelings of loneliness, distress, and lower individual self-esteem. The result, in too many cases, is high-risk sexual behavior. And high-risk sexual behavior comes at a heavy price, since the CDC reports that one in six of surveyed young Black gay men is HIV positive. In fact, African-American MSM today may experience higher rates of infection than any other population in the industrialized world. With numbers like that, we cannot afford to stigmatize or ignore the men having sex with men in our community.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Sister Lewis,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. HIV/AIDS is a topic that is addressed frequently in our congregation through out health ministry. As I said - this is not a new subject. My complaint remains however, with respect to the MSM/DLB thing. When you disseminate uncorraborated information (gossip), and the information turns out to be false, you become an agent of perpetuator and do everyone in ear-shot a dis-service. Let me be clear, my challenge to you is not on the HIV/AIDS issue. I agree that there's no such thing as too much information on this topic. Its the MSM/DLB thing that inflammed my response because of the ramifications to our community that your stats represent. If true, then the black community is doomed already. Peace sister, continue your good work with HIV/AIDS, but, while you try to emphasis this issue, leave the unsubstantiated out - it doesn't help.

In Love,

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Well said sister Olivia

In Christ,

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

What you call "Homophobia" and "Stigma" has nothing to do with one's health. Stop the nasty ungodly behavior and HIV/AIDS will die in two generations.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

"...When you disseminate uncorraborated information (gossip), and the information turns out to be false, you become an agent of perpetuator and do everyone in ear-shot a dis-service..." One man's "gossip" is another man's "information". I'm a professional journalist. This type of thing occurs all of the time, in both the "secular" and "religious" community. It's all perception. I found the information helpful; I'd never heard of MSM's, DL's or any of it. But I have heard of HIV/AIDS. I am open-minded enough to know that all information can be perceived as "fact" or "gossip"--- it all depends on who you talk to. Thanks sis Lewis for your courage to raise such a timely issue on this board. These are the kind of posts that keep our communication on this board interesting.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Brother Paris,

Since Brother Harris has given us a mandate to list only facts and accurate statistics, where did you get the theory that HIV/AIDS will end "in two generations"...How long is two generations--twenty years? Two hundred years? What? Inquiring minds want to know. God bless!

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Looks like this horse is still wigglin.

Brother Smith, Sister Lewis,

Take one moment and consider what it would mean to our community if more than 68% of Black men were MSM/DLB. Ok, try 15%. These would be staggering numbers. Now consider the kind of fears and suspicions that would rightly fill the minds of those who believed those numbers to be true. I know I would look at every black man differently and would expect to be looked at differently too. Just for the record, I began posting based upon what was quoted in the original post as the percentages of black men engaged in this behavior. I challenged the validity and veracity of the information and the information providers and still do, and insist that such statements are potentially harmful and not worthy of the learned.

Discussing and raising the consciousness about AIDS/HIV is one thing, but to assign large numbers of black men to a category of sexual pervert is beyond the pale, especially when there is no evidence to substantiate such a claim, and the authoritative sources are an unknown J.L. King and Oprah.

In Love,

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Dr. Harper has pronounced the horse dead.

Brother Harris, I suspect you'd have been a Pharisee in Jesus' day.

Let's assume that only 10 (ten) African-American men out of the entire population in the U.S. are DLBs: They are now putting 10 women (their wives) at risk for HIV/AIDS. Let's say that those 10 women aren't the most chaste women on the planet (or they get divorced without ever knowing they were married to a DLB). If they only have sex with two other men, we have added 20 more people to the mix. If those 10 women get pregant after they are infected, we have children that are infected (we won't count them for sake of argument).

If those 20 men that got infected each sleep with 5 other women, the total number of people infected as a result of those 10 DLBs is 130 (not including the DLBs). Each DLB is responsible for 13 new infections.

Whether 15%, 50% or 68% of the African-American men are DLBs is not the issue. You are missing the point. The fact is that our women, and our children and our families are being killed because some people can't admit what they are.

The only way for us to verify the numbers is for the DLBs to come out of the closet, when and if that ever happens......But since they can't out of the closet to the ones they promised to "love, honor, and cherish, forsaking ALL OTHERS, until death do they part", I doubt they ever will....

I agree with Pastor Paris. If we stopped the ungodly behavior, those with the disease couldn't pass it on, and when they passed, HIV/AIDS would pass with it.....

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Rev. Harper sees the point! You see both the "forest" and the "trees"!!!! Amen, Rev. Harper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

A generation is 40 Years. If we have no new infections for 80 years, all infected persons are dead taking the virus to the grave with them.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Thanks Rev. Paris. I didn't know that. THanks for the information!

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Who is J.L. King and what professional credentials and expertise allow him to float this reported New England Journal of Medicine, Health Affairs or The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) that can corroboratstatistic of 68% of black men being at risk? Until I read a study about the problem of "MSM or "DL Brothers" in a respected journal like The e J.L. King's statistic (% 68), I remain skeptical. Last I checked J.L. King is neither the Surgeon General, Dean of Public Health @ Harvard or Director of NIH. His concern about the issue of MSM is commendable but I think it is a stretch to consider him even a marginal "expert" in public health issues. QED

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Hmmm.... for some unexplained reason the mesaage previously posted is not what I wrote. Here is what I wrote:

Who is J.L. King and what professional credentials and expertise allow him to float this reported statistic of 68% of black men being at risk? Until I read a study about the problem of "MSM" or "DL Brothers" in a respected journal like The New England Journal of Medicine, Health Affairs or The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) that can corroborate J.L. King's statistic (%68), I remain skeptical. Last I checked J.L. King is neither the Surgeon General, Dean of Public Health @ Harvard or Director of NIH. His concern about the issue of MSM is commendable but I think it is a stretch to consider him even a marginal "expert" in public health issues. QED

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2004

Rev. Harper, Sister Lewis,

You'z guyz be ticklin' me! I'm not educated enough to have been a Pharisee, but its true, in this or any life, I would fervently serve the LORD.

Have you actually read my posts? Are they incomprehensable? or do you suffer from the affliction of not being able to hear another point because of the sound of your own voice? The issue I raised was exactly the 68% quote. You say its not an issue. You don't think it makes a difference whether the number of MSM/DLB is 10 or 1,000,000? Hello!? Give me a break. Fact is, our women and children and families are suffering because of promiscuity and venereal disease. Zippers up, legs closed, serve the Lord.

In Christ,

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2004

Brother Harris:

I "read" for a living, and, well it is true that I enjoy the "sound" of my own voice, I do not nor have I had a problem with reading comprehension. You are and have been "preaching to the choir" since you logged onto this post. No one ever said that J.L. King's statistic of 68% is difinitive. As I have stated, over and over again, I was merely repeating what was stated on Oprah and what was published in the Oprah transcript. No one is taking J.L. King's statistic as "the Gospel". I felt that the statistic was fabricated myself. I very clearly started that line in the post by stating that J.L. King "...went as far as to state that in his estimation over 68% of African American men are living on the downlow". That is one man's estimation, which I thought was quite absurd. Why did I repeat it? Because I wanted to see how many of you saw the show and what you thought about it. I think the Rev's point was that whether it is 68% or 10% or 1% the reality is that there is a community of "MSM's" or "down low" brothers in the community--- though J.L. King has not proven anything--other than stating that MSM's/down-low brother exist because he happens to be one of them-- but they do exist and studies have been done by legitimate organizations (the CDC, etc) that prove this phenomenon. I think the "zipper's up/skirts down" theory is good; however, it is a little bit outdated, particularly when it comes to relating to the younger generation. Frankness works when I am talking about sexuality/HIV/AIDS. The "down low/MSM" conversation was merely a conversation piece. And it has worked. As Christians we need to start having more frank conversations about sexuality, even "non- traditional, ungodly sexuality" like this. I am way too educated to take statistics that someone comes up with off the top of their head as Gospel. However, I have not found any studies that give an accurate statistic, primarily because who is going to admit to that kind of behavior? My goal is not to shut people up or to shut off conversation. My goal is and has always been to keep the lines of communication open. I am comfortable with people who do not agree with me. It just makes me communicate more. God bless you.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2004

You want to know about the author? Visit the site

http://www.livingdownlow.com

Please share any dialogue you have with the board.....I am curious to see how he responds to some of the comments posted here....

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2004

Thanks Rev. Harper for the website link. So the brother is a rather well-regarded authority regarding this subject matter. And, he has interviewed over 2,000 members of this "down low" community. That's good to know. God bless!

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2004

I've read all the comments posted on this board and many of you make some very valid points but I would be remissed if I don't speak on this subject but from another perspective. First of all, I am an African American male who happens to be proud and gay. No. I am not Christian nor any other religion and this is a choice I am very comfortable with. I consider myself (and always will) and spiritual- realist. I've known about the DL brothers most of my adult life and YES, there are many! Many of us are in denial but we can't possibly evolve and heal the many divisions in our community being in denial. If you talk to the average gay man, each and every single one of them will share many stories about encounters with DL men. Some gay men prefer these kind of men because they are ALL very masculine in everyway and this is very attractive them above all else. I personally don't get involve with them because I am empowered and love myself enough to not deal with that. Like minds attract like minds, I wish to attract strength, courage, sense of self and pride and until I make that connection, I will continue to be single and celibate.

The real truth of the matter is that we are living in a world full of conditions, illusions and expectations that truly don't add up in the bigger picture. The bigger picture in this regard, is that our homophobia (FEAR of association, discussion abd ackowledgment of homo- sexuality) and ignorance, has inadvertingly created this situation. WE are learning the HARD way that we MUST evolve or dissolve.

Addressing the black church - No other "sin" is amplified, villified, ostracized more than homosexuality. Sure, many of you (according to your faith) say that "sin is sin" but the truth of the matter is that your actions have blatingly and historically told another story. You- members of the black church have singled out homosexuality as the worse sin of all.. YOU KNOW IT AND I KNOW IT, so PLEASE don't keep the denial going by disputing this fact. Not only that, society has practically made gays the poster children of everything evil and wrong in our society. No wonder so many feel they have no choice but to either commit suicide or live a lie (which is still another form of suicide of self). Now, consider the many men and women, (who happens to be bisexual or homosexual) internalizing these bias messages over and over again. I've even seen here on this message board, people using judgmental adjectives on the subject matter. These one-sided, hipocritical messages are particularly cancerous to black men because black men already have a ton of things to contend with, so the LAST thing he wants to do is risk having his family, church, friends and co-workers, reject him for being "honest" about his sexuality. What's his option? To live a lie (against one of your 10 commandments).. He will create a life that is "expected" of him, while on the inside have an inner struggle with his authentic self.

Let's be clear about this, whenever anyone repress or deny an integral part of themselves... They inadvertingly, create depression, low self-esteem, shame, fear, resentment and anger... Do you really think a person who is filled with these kind of issues will be responsible in their behaviors? Do you TRULY expect them to be truthful? Do you really think that someone who has low-self esteem and unhappy will protect themselves during an encounter, be it with a male or female? STOP! THINK!

Now, I don't care what your faith or belief system is but UNIVERSAL LAW, shows us time and time again that what we FEAR, we draw it (the fear) to us. It is drawn to us not as a punishment, but moreso to force us to look at the fear and challenge and dissolve it. FEAR blocks evolution and spiritual growth. WE, AS A RACE, HAVE COLLECTIVELY CREATED THIS SITUATION OUT OF "FEAR" and IGNORANCE OF HOMOSEXUALITY. Some of your fears and ignorance still show 20 years after AIDS by saying things like 95% of AIDS infection is due man to man anal sex... If that were the case, what about Africa millions upon millions of men, women and children are infected. Do you think the same stats is true for them? I think not. The truth of the matter is that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Saints, Aetheist, spiritualist, children, babies, preachers etc., have gotten and WILL continue to get AIDS! Why does it matter how they got it? Your faith may not keep you from getting AIDS but your actions will!

Now getting back to the fear that we've created... What are we going to do now that the mirror is facing us? Should we continue to ignore what we "see"? Should we continue to preach fire and brimstone? Should we continue to condemn, reject and vilify? Ponder these questions because these are all the elements that gives power to homophobia (FEAR and IGNORANCE). If you choose to continue giving power to homophobia (fear), you will make the problem bigger and bigger. The choice is yours... the choice is ours.

Lastly, I say that the answer to this situation requires love and compassion and an end to judgment and condemnation. INFINITE LOVE=heals - FEAR= divide and destroys. The choice is yours black man and black woman.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2004

The Seeker opunes -

"Now getting back to the fear that we've created... What are we going to do now that the mirror is facing us? Should we continue to ignore what we "see"? Should we continue to preach fire and brimstone? Should we continue to condemn, reject and vilify? Ponder these questions because these are all the elements that gives power to homophobia (FEAR and IGNORANCE). If you choose to continue giving power to homophobia (fear), you will make the problem bigger and bigger. The choice is yours... the choice is ours."

Why is it when someone disagrees with homosexual lifestyles he/she is always clasified as suffering from homophobia? I have no fear of gays/lesbians. I don't suffer from a lack of information about same- sex attractions. I disagree with the lifestyles of pedophiles, proponents of bestiality, cocaine consumers, Cognac bibbers, pathological liars, etc., etc. I don't fear or suffer ignorance about these "lifestyles" as well. I am unabashedly heterosexual. I believe in the institution of heterosexual marriage because it is spiritual, economically efficient and it promotes cultural harmony. The Bible is indeed ambiguous on some topics but condoning a homosexual lifestyle, gay marriages and reckless bi-sexual perversions are not one of them. The Holy Writ is unequivocal in its prouncement that such "alternative lifestyles" will result in a forfeiture of eternal life (I Corinthians 6:9-10). So, if you and others "seek" the truth by forsaking the promise of Blessed Eternity, go right ahead, it's your choice. Like Joshua, as for me and my house we have made our choice. I have made my choice and the road I've chosen is one where gender identity is clearly defined and the paramount objectives of biological procreation and family nurturing are respected and cherished. QED

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2004

RE: To seeker Opunes,

"Why is it when someone disagrees with homosexual lifestyles he/she is always clasified as suffering from homophobia? I have no fear of gays/lesbians."

YOU MAY NOT HAVE A 'FEAR' OF HOMOSEXUALS BUT COLLECTIVELY, THE BLACK COMMUNITY DOES! MANY PEOPLE'S INTOLERANCE OF HOMOSEXUALITY HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IGNORANCE THAT IS FEAR BASED... FOR EXAMPLE; MANY PEOPLE WILL NOT BEFRIEND SOMEONE WHO EITHER APPEAR OR IS GAY FOR "FEAR" OF OTHER PEOPLE WILL THINK THAT THEY ARE GAY. FAMILIES REJECT AND KICK THE CHILDREN OUT OF THE HOUSE, NOT BECAUSE OF WHO OR WHAT THEY ARE BUT BECAUSE THEY "FEAR" OR "CARE" MORE ABOUT WHAT THEIR ASSOCIATES WILL THINK OF THEM... TEACHING THAT GAY PEOPLE ARE EVIL AND HAVE A DEMONIC SPIRIT IN THEM THAT COULD JUMP OFF ON YOU AND MAKE YOU GAY, IS "IGNORANCE" AND "FEAR BASED"... SPEWING THAT GAYS WILL MOLEST AND RAPE LITTLE BOYS, TEACHES PEOPLE TO BE FEARFUL... TEACHING THAT GAYS WILL TRY TO COME ON TO ANY STRAIGHT PERSON, IS FEAR BASED.. MANY STRAIGHT INTERNALIZE THIS MESS (MAINLY TAUGHT BY THE BLACK CHURCH) AND IT MAKES THEM FEARFUL! (I CAN GO ON AND ON) AS A RESULT, GAYS (OR THOSE WHO "APPEAR" TO BE GAY) ARE SYSTEMATICALLY BEATEN, ABUSED AND EVEN KILLED... YOU KNOW IT AND I KNOW IT. SO PLEASE SPARE THE SYMANTICS BECAUSE I AM DEALING WITH THE REAL ISSUES NOT FAIRY LAND (NO PUN INTENDED). QUITE FRANKLY, I THINK THAT THE BLACK CHURCH HAS A SICK OBSESSION WITH THE SUBJECT MATTER WHICH IS PROBLEMATIC IN ITSELF. NO OTHER SUBJECT MATTER OF TOPIC EVOKES SO MUCH EMOTION, SERMONS AND SLANDER THAN THAT OF HOMOSEXUALITY-- NOT EVEN MURDER! IT'S REALLY SAD THAT THE BLACK CHURCH IS FAR MORE FOCUSED ON PREACHING AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY WHEN RACISM, BLACK ON BLACK CRIME, MURDER IN THE INNER-CITIES, FATHERLESS CHIDREN IS CAUSING FAR MORE DESTRUCTION TO THE SO CALLED BLACK FAMILY... SUCH HIPOCRITES!

"I don't suffer from a lack of information about same- sex attractions. I disagree with the lifestyles of pedophiles, proponents of bestiality, cocaine consumers, Cognac bibbers, pathological liars, etc., etc. I don't fear or suffer ignorance about these "lifestyles" as well."

AGAIN, YOU ARE ONLY ONE PERSON AND IF YOU ARE NOT FEAR DRIVEN, THEN THE MESSAGE THAT I'VE POSTED DOES NOT PERTAIN TO YOU. YOU KNOW THAT YOU DON'T REPRESENT THE MAJORITY! YOU'VE HEARD DISCUSSIONS ON THE SUBJECT IN MANY CIRCLES-YOU KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING IS TRUTH. MY PREVIOUS MESSAGE WAS MORESO DIRECTED AT THOSE WHO ARE HOMOPHOBIC. IT'S IRONIC THAT YOU (WHO IS NOT FEARFUL OF HOMOSEXUALS) FELT A NEED TO RESPOND... INTERESTING INDEED.

"I am unabashedly heterosexual."

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR HETEROSEXUAL STATUS - CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY AND BLESSED THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH A LIFE OF SEVERE PERSECUTION FOR WHO YOU WISH TO LOVE OR BE WITH. HOWEVER, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT BE CAREFUL WHO YOU JUDGE BECAUSE YOU JUST MIGHT BECOME THEM. I LIVE THIS REALITY AND THEREFORE HAVE A PERSPECTIVE THAT YOU WILL NEVER, NEVER, UNDERSTAND AND FOR THIS REASON, WHAT YOU SPEAK ON THE SUBJECT IS MUTE. THAT'S LIKE A WHITE WOMEN EXPLAINING THE STRUGGLES OF BLACK PEOPLE IN AMERIKKKA.

"I believe in the institution of heterosexual marriage because it is spiritual, economically efficient and it promotes cultural harmony."

ALL OF THE ELEMENTS YOU POINTED OUT ABOUT HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE IS SUBJECTIVE. I KNOW PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE MARRIED THAT ARE ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE BUT THEY STAY TOGETHER FOR THE SAKE OF CHILDREN, FINANCIAL REASONS; THEIR CHURCH AND/OR SOCIETY. THEY ARE TOGETHER FOR EVERYTHING BUT LOVE. IN CONTRAST TO THIS, THIS COUNTRY'S HIGH DIVORCE RATES SHOW IT AND THE RAMPANT LEVEL OF INFIDELITY PROVES IT EVEN MORE. SO PLEASE SHOW ME THE CULTURAL HARMONY BECAUSE BASED ON WHAT YOU ARE SAYING? THINGS JUST DON'T ADD UP.

I KNOW MANY GAY COUPLES WHO HAVE BEEN IN LOVING MONAGAMOUS RELATIONSHIPS FOR 10, 20, 30 AND 40 YEARS! THIS IS WITHOUT THE BLESSING AND SUPPORT OF SOCIETY OR THE CHURCH. NOW I CALL THAT A MIRACLE AND DIVINELY INSPIRED! SOME OF THEM HAVE CHILDREN THAT ARE VERY WELL ADJUSTED (IN CASE YOU ARE WONDERING, GAYS AND LESBIANS DO PROCREATE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE MARRIED THE OPPOSITE SEX TO DO THIS NOR DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX EITHER. IMMACULATE CONCEPTION IS OFTEN THE BETTER CHOICE FOR GAYS AND LESBIANS WHO WANT CHILDEN).

BY THE WAY, IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT CULTURAL HARMONY, THE BLACK FAMILY IN IT'S TRUEST FORM WAS DEFINED BY A VILLAGE - NOT THIS EUROCENTRIC CONCEPT OF FAMILY. WE HAVE GOTTEN FAR AWAY FROM OUR TRUE STATE OF FAMILY WHICH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MARRIAGE BETWEEN A MAN AND WOMEN... IT WAS MORE ABOUT A MARRIAGE OF COMMUNITIES AND GENERATIONS.

The Bible is indeed ambiguous on some topics but condoning a homosexual lifestyle, gay marriages and reckless bi-sexual perversions are not one of them. The Holy Writ is unequivocal in its prouncement that such "alternative lifestyles" will result in a forfeiture of eternal life (I Corinthians 6:9-10).

YES, IT IS AMBIGUOUS ON SOME TOPICS BUT WHY SINGLE OUT HOMOSEXUALITY AS IF IT IS THE ONLY THING THAT ISN'T? THERE ARE THINGS THAT THE BIBLE CLEARLY CONDEMNS THAT STRAIGHTS DO EVERYDAY, ALL DAY BUT THEY DON'T SUFFER THE SAME LEVEL OF PERSECUTION AND SERMONS FROM THE PULPIT, YOU KNOW IT AND I KNOW IT. I CAN LIST A FEW THINGS THAT I AM SURE THAT YOU DO AND NEVER CONSIDER THAT IS IS "AGAINST YOUR OWN FAITH." SECONDLY, IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU STATED THIS BECAUSE THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE (OF A DIFFERENT RELIGION) WHO WILL LOOK AT YOU WITH YOUR BIBLE AND SAY THE SAME THING YOU ARE SAYING TO ME... THEY TOO BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ACCEPTING THE "DEVIL'S BOOK" AS THE WORD OF GOD. QUITE FRANKLY, I DON'T ACCEPT THE BIBLE OR ANY OTHER BOOK AS THE UNALTERED WORD OF GOD, AND THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TIME AND SPACE ON THE BOARDS FOR ME TO EXPLAIN WHY NOR DO I CARE TO DO SO. I DON'T BELIEVE THE CREATOR WRITES BOOKS! I SEE LIFE AS BEING MUCH BIGGER THAN ANY BIBLE, RELIGION OR ANY OTHER FORMS OF SOCIAL, MENTAL AND SPIRITUAL CONDITIONING. HOWEVER, IF THAT IS YOUR CHOICE TO ACCEPT THE BIBLE AS THE COMPLETE TRUTH, SO BE IT BUT PLEASE BE CLEAR THAT JUST AS YOU HAVE ACCEPTED, I AND MANY OTHERS HAVE THE RIGHT, NOT TO ACCEPT. THIS SHOULD BE RESPECTED ON BOTH SIDES OF THE COIN. THE MAIN REASON WHY I HAVE NEVER FELT A CONNECTION TO ORGANIZED RELIGION, IS BECAUSE IT HAS NEVER RESONATED WITH ME. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY SEXUAL ORIENTATION BUT IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH MY EXPERIENCES IN SPIRITUAL MATTERS AND AS A DECENDENT OF THE MOST BRUTALIZED RACE OF PEOPLE IN THE HISTORY OF CIVILIZATION.

So, if you and others "seek" the truth by forsaking the promise of Blessed Eternity, go right ahead, it's your choice. Like Joshua, as for me and my house we have made our choice. I have made my choice and the road I've chosen is one where gender identity is clearly defined and the paramount objectives of biological procreation and family nurturing are respected and cherished. QED"

IT IS MY CHOICE AND IT IS A CHOICE THAT I AM STICKING WITH. I LAY MY HEAD DOWN EVERY NIGHT WITH NO FEAR; NO SHAME AND NO GUILT ABOUT WHO AND WHAT I AM. IF I WERE TO DIE TOMORROW, I HAVE NO FEAR OF DEATH FOR YOU SEE, I HAVE STARED DEATH IN THE FACE AND DID NOT SHIVER ONE BIT. I HAVE SEEN THINGS THAT MANY OF YOU PRAY TO SEE... JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE STRIGHT CHRISTIAN DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE A DIVINE BEING AND JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS GAY DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE NOT. THE HEART SAIDS IT ALL AND MANY WILL BE SURPRISED AT WHAT AWAITS AFTER THEIR LESSONS HERE ON EARTH ARE COMPLETED.

I AM EXTREMELY BLESSED IN EVERYWAY IMAGINABLE. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT I WOULD MUCH RATHER LIVE IN TRUTH AND LIGHT, THAN LIVE A LIE IN DARKNESS. THIS IS WHAT MOST OF YOU WOULD PREFER THAT GAYS DO... LIVE A LIE FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR BELIEFS. I'VE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT AND I WILL NEVER GO THERE AGAIN. MY "OWN" TRUTH HAS HELPED ME BUILD STRENGTH, CHARACTER AND SPIRITUALITY THAT LIMITED MINDS COULD NEVER UNDERSTAND. AGAIN, THIS IS MY REALITY AND WHAT YOU HAVE IS YOURS. IN THIS REGARD, ONE MAN'S TRUTH IS ANOTHER MAN'S LIE.

LASTLY, I SAY THAT THERE IS BUT ONLY ONE TRUTH AND THAT IS INFINATE LOVE, EVERYTHING ELSE IS AN ILLUSION.

BE WELL

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2004

Thank you Rev. Harper for the link. If anything it affirms my continued belief that if we are to be a church that promotes healing and reconciliation we must find a way to embrace those brothers and sisters who are living on the dl.

Homosexuals have always been in our churches even in the most conservative (black and white for those who believe everything is a code word) denominations. They are there because something about the Lord draws them, and like the adulterers, alcoholics, gluttons and other sinners in the congregation, they don't share their difficulties for fear of being shunned and outcast.

AME's already know what we are supposed to do. Many of us hear it every Sunday, the second is like unto it love your neighbor as yourself.

I just don't believe that I would want some one to condemn me to hell without trying to save me by helping me see me as a child of God first and foremost.

1 John 5 helps us point those who like seeker of the real truth have rejected the kingdom of God. I am praying that healing of the heart takes place that he might forgive those who have bashed him for his understanding of himself. May God enlighten us to his will and his way.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2004

Brothers and Sisters,

Know that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands. But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction. To fear the LORD is to HATE evil; Let those who love the LORD hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked. Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? The righteous HATE what is false.

My sympathies to those who are on the DL or engaged in a homosexual lifestyle. They are obviously compelled by the evil one to do that which ought not be done. They are senseless, faithless, helpless and powerless because they neither glorify God nor give thanks to him. Their thinking is become futile and their foolish hearts are darkened. Although they claim to be wise, they've become fools. They invent ways of doing evil. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I for one will no more embrace them than I would embrace a poisionous viper. I will not support them in their evil or defend their persistent, obstinate wickedness. NO! I will leave them to the Father of Him who was bruised and hung on a tree for such transgressions. I will await and trust the judgement of Him whose name is Love and Mercy to meet out Justice. I will pray that those who engage in these hideous evils will turn from their wicked ways, seek the Lord, and be healed.

Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy." "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (Rev 22:11-13)

In His Service,

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2004

While I was in the process of studying the Bible Commentaries for the Book of Revelation Lectionary Readings this week, the website below appeared on one of them. I believe that this was no coincidence, but that God wanted me to share it with the readers on this board.

Although the author of is neither Black, now Down Low, he gives answers to many of the questions we are asking here. It has links to several topics we have addressed. Please don’t stop at the initial home page but scroll down to the bottom of the page to find the links to the other issues raised.

Whether or not you agree or disagree with him, he writes from personal experience, not mere conjecture as we have done.

The fact that this was linked to Revelation Commentary is, I think, most fitting indeed. I am reminded of the Day of Jesus’ Ascension, which also occurred in the Christian Calendar on Thursday this past week—ten day before the Day of Pentecost.

When the angel said to the believers “Why stand ye here gazing into the heaven, this same Jesus will come again”, he literally meant that we should be about doing what Jesus said, “Go ye into all the world making disciples of them”.

If we alienate any segment or condition of our society and thereby fail to bring them to Christ, we run the risk of not having our names written in the Book of the Lamb, and hearing the words, “Depart from me ye worker of iniquity, I never knew you”.

With this in mind, here is the link to the page I mentioned above:

EX-GAY CHRISTIAN WEBSITE

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2004

Let's start with the basics the Bible as it was originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

The first problem is that there is no word for "homosexual" in biblical Hebrew or koine Greek (the original languages of the Old and New Testaments respectively). The word "homosexual" did not even exist in English until the late 19th century. The notion of "sexual orientation" was developed in the course of the 20th century. There is not one single solitary mention of a "homosexual" or "homosexuality"in the original text of the Bible.

Genesis 19: Sodom and Gommorah: For most people, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was a retributive act in which God destroyed the two cities for their homosexuality. Many people like you accept this without even checking the source. It is indeed curious that no other passage in the Old or New Testament mentions that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for homosexual acts, not even Jesus, who says that they were destroyed for their inhospitatlity (Matt. 10:14-15, Mark 6:11, Luke 10: 10-12). The interpretation hinges on one ambiguous word in the Hebrew text. When angels arrive as the guests of Lot and are taken inside, the men of the city call out "Where are the men which came in to thee this night: bring them out unto us, that we may know them." The Hebrew word "to know:" ("yada") usually means to know personally. One way of reading the passage is to think that the men of the city saw that Lot had two fine looking guests, and that they were asking him to bring out the guests. In this case an introduction would be a pretext for violence in which the "angels" might be assaulted or robbed. In a small number of cases (about 10 of 943 occurrences) the verb "yada" (to know) means "to have sexual relations." Those who would read this passage as an admonition against homosexuality have no evidence besides the few but certain instances where "yada" has to mean "to have sex." No other Biblical writer who mentions Sodom and Gommorah thinks that it is an issue of homosexual sex (cf. Ezekial 16: 46-48), and Jesus' failure to use it as the cause of destruction would seem conclusive. In Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to have given themselves over to fornication and "going after strange flesh" the later of which is sometimes thought to refer to homosexual activity. In fact, "strange" translates the Greek adjective "heteros" which simply means "other." It is the root of "hetero" in "heterosexual." In other words, the phrase going after "other flesh" is a reference to general promiscuity.The "homosexual" reading of Sodom and Gommorah developed over time. When St. Jerome translated the books of the Bible into the Latin for the Vulgate version he occasionally uses the word "sodomita" of various sexual acts, both homosexual and heterosexual, of which the Roman Catholic Church disapproved. The word "sodomite" entered the English translation of the Bible in 1611 with the King James Version of the Bible where "sodomite" is an incorrect translation of the Hebrew word "kadash" a temple prostitute.

Leviticus 18:22. The King James Bible reads: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is an abomination." The wording in the KJV is altogether problematic. Various things are called an "abomination." Some are what we would consider moral issues (incest), but others are manifestly about health and hygiene (avoiding pork, shell fish, brackish water). Some are matters of cleanliness (touching dead snakes, sleeping with a woman during menstruation). Others still are issues of ethnicity and religious identity (cutting of hair and beard, etc.). The word "abomination "translates the Hebrew word "toevah" which really means something like "impure or unclean for the purposes of ritual." It is not a blanket denunciation of all homosexuals any more than it is a denunciation of menstruating women." This is further underscored by one of the oldest most authoritative translations of the Old Testament--the Septuagint. Beginning in the 3rd century B.C. Greek speaking Jewish scholars translated the Old Testament into Greek. The Greek language distinguishes between violations of morality and justice (anomia) and infringements of ritual purity (bdelugma). In Leviticus 18:22, the activity is called a bdelugma making it an issue of ritual purity rather than one of general morality. Just what is being called "toevah" is also problematic. The Hebrew literally says, "You shall not sleep the sleep of a woman with a man." because it is "toevah." (the Greek translation in the Septuagint is literal and equally unclear). While it seems certain that the King James translators of the Bible understood this to be a reference to homosexuality, when one looks at the original text, the issue is much more obscure.

The use of the word "sodomite" in the King James translation at Deut. 23:17 and 1 Kings 14: 24 is a clear mistranslation of the Hebrew word "kadash" which is a temple prostitute. In the original text of the Bible it has nothing to do with homosexuality. Even in English it is not restricted to same sex behavior but identifies forms of sexual activity outside of vaginal intercourse.

1 Corinthians 6:9: The KJV of the Bible condemns "effeminates" and those who are "abusers of themselves with mankind." The second phrase is also used in Timothy 1:10. The RSV conflates two words and refers to "homosexuals." None of these definitions are tenable. As mentioned above, there is no word for "homosexual" in Greek, a fact of which the translators of RSV were aware, since they attempt to use two Greek words to justify their choice of "homosexual." The word "effeminates" translates the Greek word "malakoi" which means soft in both its literal and metaphorical meanings. The King James Bible erroneously translates the word as "effeminates" although this is demonstrably false on a variety of grounds. The word "malakoi"is a very common one in Greek and simply means "soft" both literally and metaphorically. The Greco-Roman culture did not make the same culturally based association between homosexuality and effeminacy that ours tends to. The great, masculine exemplars of myth and history frequently engaged in homosexual activities (Zeus/Jupiter, Herakles/Hercules, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar) and no one of the 1st century AD would not have assumed the "malakos" (soft) had anything to do with effeminacy or sexual preference. The Revised Standard Version assimilates "malakoi" to the following word "arsenokoitai" and translates "homosexual." Since the word "homosexual" was not coined in English until the late 19th century, there is no legitimate argument for accepting this translation.

The definition for "malakos" in the unabridged Liddle, Scott and Jones Greek Dictionary:

I. Of things subject to touch: soft II. of things not subject to touch: gentle, soft, fair (of breezes, scents, words), mild, faint, delicate, light III. of persons or modes of life: 1. soft, mild, gentle. youthful (looks, reasoning). 2. negatively: soft, feeble, faint-hearted, cowardly, morally weak, lacking in self-control, want of spirit

John Boswell, in Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality says:(p. 106ff.) "In a specifically moral context [malakos] very frequently means "licentious,""loose,"or "wanting in self-control." At a broad level, it might be translated as either "unrestrained" or "wanton," but to assume that either of these concepts necessarily applies to gay people as a group is wholly gratuitous. The word is never used in Greek to designate gay people as a group or even in reference to homosexual acts generically, and it often occurs in writings contemporary with the Pauline epistles in reference to heterosexual persons or activity....What is more to the point, the unanimous tradition of the church through the Reformation, and of Catholicism until well into the twentieth century, has been that this word applied to masturbation.

The claim that that the word "arsenokoites" (see above) obviously means "homosexual" defies linguistic evidence and common sense. (The following summary is derived from John Boswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosesexuality. "The second half of the compound, "koitai,"is a coarse word, generally denoting base or licentious sexual activities, and in this and other compounds corresponds to the vulgar English word "f*cker," i.e. a person who, by insertion, takes the "active" role in intercourse. The prefix "arseno-" simply means "male." Its relationship to the second half of the compound is ambiguous: in bald English the compound means "male f*ckers,"but it is not clear whether "male" designates the object or the gender of the second half. The English expression "lady killer," when written, conveys the same ambiguity: in speech, emphasis would indicate whether "lady: designates the victim or the gender of the "killer," but in print there is no way to distinguish whether the phrase means "a lady who kills," or "a person who kills ladies." This a particularly revealing parallel, since a third and largely unrelated meaning (i.e., "wolf," or :"Don Juan") is actually the most common sense of the term but could not be deduced from the constituent parts, a telling example of the inadequacy of lexicographical inference unsupported by contextual evidence. "Arsenokoitai, "then, means male sexual agents," i.e.,active male prostitutes, who were common throughout the Hellenistic world in the time of Paul." That such a designation existed in the Latin of the time is well known: the drauci or exoleti were...male prostitutes capable of the active role with either men or women... etc.

The one remaining passage which may be thought to contain a reference to homosexuality is 1 Romans 1:26-31. Paul is distinguishing between Christianity and Greco-Roman paganism, and this was, in his estimation, one of the features of the latter. Paul was, no doubt, aware of temple prostitution, both homosexual and heterosexual, and he is here warning the Romans against the "kadeshim." Paul's opinions about sex were negative in general ("It is good for a man not to touch a woman. To avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own cousin." 1 Corinthians 7:1- 2) The "sins" with which Paul mentions same gender sex are such things as fornication, covetousness, envy, whisperers, backbiters, the proud, boasters, (children) disobedient to parents, etc. (vv.29- 30). and he makes the punishment for all of them "death."In closing, it is worth observing that Jesus never spoke out about or against homosexuality. Sexuality was not as an important an issue as was wealth, demonic possession, hypocracy. His laws were to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. The most strongly worded statement he makes about any kind of union is to say that divorce was not admissible and made adulterers out of those who did divorce.

By the way, when did you last write a philosphic dialog like Plato, or sculpt a statue like Michaelangelo, or compose a symphony like Tschaikowsky. While not all gays are genuises, they go to work, have family, friends, and loved ones, pay taxes, take part in the community, and live productive lives. Why would it be any of your business what they do in the bedroom?

If you do not have enough informnation to disprove what I have written here, you have no business telling anyone what God does or doesn't want.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2004

Uh excuse me. I'd like to point out that these types of discussions were what got the United Methodists into the mess they're in today. As I pointed out in my post on church discipline, promoting a pro- homosexuality view warrants immediate church discipline.

The choice is now before the AME as it was before the UMC 30 years ago. Deal firmly with these people, or in a few short years you'll face a very unpleasant choice: Schism or apostacy.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2004

Messenger,

Have you ever heard the phrase "full of sound a fury signifying nothing?" Your many words though well assembled and scholarly, leave me empty, sort of like a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. Your treatise is a perfect example of the folly in which those who know not the Spirit find themselves. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them." (Matt 13:14-15)

Your course is set (as is mine), your mind is made up (me too). Let us agree to disagree realizing one thing for certain - when the Lord returns, He will give to everyone according to what he has done.

In Love, In His Service,

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2004

I will return to dissect your post at a later date. But let me point out some things:

"By the way, when did you last write a philosphic dialog like Plato, or sculpt a statue like Michaelangelo, or compose a symphony like Tschaikowsky. While not all gays are genuises, they go to work, have family, friends, and loved ones, pay taxes, take part in the community, and live productive lives."

When did you reproduce after your own kind without artificial means? How can you teach children what a godly man and woman look like if you don't have one of each in the home?

"Why would it be any of your business what they do in the bedroom?"

It isn't my business what you do in your bedroom, straight or gay. I have a problem when you a) put that business out in the street, b) try to justify any sinful behavior rather than change, and c) are harming others. It becomes my business when you try to convince my children that what you do is "normal", when the Bible is teaching them it is not. It becomes my business when anyone tries to destroy God's law in order to get their way (It's happened with prayer,and it's happening with marriage. This country was founded on godly principles, albeit with misguided applications. It is suicide for the citizens of the U.S. to tell God that they don't want to follow his laws. The Israelites are a key example). It becomes my business when anyone tries to devalue the role of a woman or a man.

Now as most people do, you left out two important pieces of scripture: Romans 1, starting around the 20th verse. and Leviticus 20:13. I am curious to see how you would exegete these passages...

I was going to end my reply, but I can't....so much for work...

I don't know which dicitonary you have, but the word for "lie" in Leviticus 18 is "shakab". It is NOT the same word used when Adam lay with Eve, and Cain, Abel, and Seth were born which is "yada".

But, knowing that "yada" means "sexual intercourse", the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to have sex with the angels that came to visit Lot. Your argument of

Jude 1:7 - You read it out of context. The angels mentioned are the ones from Genesis 6:4. They went after strange (other) flesh (humans), producing the Nephilim, the Anakites, and the Philistines among others. Similarly, the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah went after strange (other) flesh; homosexuality.

What was Lot's response to the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah wanting to know the "men"? Lot offered up his daughters.

And while you claim Jesus never spoke directly about homosexuality (and your type of argument might as well include pederasty), he did say this: "For this reason, a MAN leaves his MOTHER and FATHER, and finds a WIFE and the two of them shall become ONE FLESH" - Matt 19. Paul said that when a man unites (knows, has sex) with a prostitute, he makes himself ONE FLESH. In God and Paul's eyes, the sexual union is tantamount to spiritual marriage. Since God (in Genesis 2), Jesus (in Matthew 19), and Paul (in Ephesians 5 and the 1 Corinthians passage you quoted) speak about a MAN and WOMAN forming a marriage, it seems to me that a homosexual union goes against God's law for marriage (in addition to being a sin).

Lasty: I don't give a widow's mite about what any writer has to say on this subject except the original authors. I find it distressing when, rather than accept God's Word for what it is, people AND churches simply do what they want to do, and justify it later. If you're that unhappy with God's laws, stop following them.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2004

RP,

Because of racial bigotry, hatred and discrimination since 1787 we have been AME—The African Methodist Episcopal Church. But, we are first and foremost Methodist, not Pentecostal, Congregational, Presbytery or Word. Thus, when one chooses to single out and attack one branch of Methodists, he or she has, by virtue of the fact that we are Methodists, attacked us all.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2004

I can't go along with that one Bro Matthews. Ref the Free Methodist Church of which my dad is an ordained minister. They broke away from the Methodist church at the time of the Civil War over the issues of secret societies, slavery, and the pew tax. Seems in those days the Methodist church allowed each body to decide its own course on the issue of slavery, charged a tax to get a seat in church, and had a clergy that was full of Freemasons.

The Free Methodists were a group from northern churches who opposed all of these things, and became one of numerous splinter groups from the old Methodist church.

Today they're part of the holiness movement, conservative in doctrine, and would quickly discipline anyone who promoted a pro- homosexual view.

In 1978 my dad left the United Methodist church over increasing liberalism. This after a family history of four generations in the Methodist church. As a staunch Weslyan he found a home in the Free Methodist church, and would be the first to tell anyone that not all Methodists are the same.

The UMC is on a downward moral spiral. I know several God fearing people in that denomination who are heart broken over its direction. Unfortunately the denomination will not discipline their own members, and are they headed toward a split. The only question is when.

Now...will the AMEC discipline their own pro-homosexual element, or will they face the same future?

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2004

You know sometimes RP I wish you would just focus on being AG but since they won't give you the time of day you bother us with your mish-mash. I guess that is the price of inclusiveness.

Speaking of inclusiveness--again, Rev. John Harper, when you say they have put their business in the street what does that mean? Are you okay with gays as long as they remain in the closet on the downlow lying to you and themselves? I did not understand what you meant by that.

With regard to the teaching of your children. Unless you plan to raise them in a bubble, they will continually be exposed to non biblical teachings on a variety of topics and especially in the area of sexuality. The television presents points of view that are definitely heterosexual but also definitely non-biblical. Music, media of all kinds not only present but promote the most heinous aspects of life in our world. Therefore you must be the primary teacher of your children, you must inform them of God's requirement for their lives while y'all driving down the road in the Mercedes looking at the folk with no food on the table, yet they like you know that God is able.

And what is up with this destroying God's law? Do you really think that the creation is capable of doing that in the hearts of those who love God and are the called according to his purpose. I think God is more powerful than Congress, Bush or the Supreme Court. Now we live in a nation that is by nature secular, but I am a witness that you can pray in school we might not have a prayer led by a closeted adulterous, pedophile, homosexual, but we can pray anytime and anywhere. And if anybody is responsible for the devaluation of marriage it is "us" heterosexuals. We marry and divorce at a rate that approaches if not exceeds 50%. So much for to have and to hold until death do us part.

In Las Vegas you can get drunk, get married and get divorced in less than 48 hours ask Britney Spears and others who have done that nutty thing. I would never approve of gay marriage in the church or gay clergy but I am wondering how our secular nation can tell people they cannot marry for the reasons I have seen listed here.

Please do not teach your children that God's law is so weak any elected or unelected body can destroy it.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2004

RP,

Let me see if I can make this clear to you. To borrow a phrase from a past President, "READ MY LIPS". As a member of the World Methodist Council we are a true Methodist Church. We are not Pentecostal, Free Methodist, Independent or renegade. Racial discrimination is the sole and primary reason that we exist as a separate church. However our beliefs and doctrines are the same, as what the majority of World- wide Methodists believe.

After Our Lord Jesus Christ, the conference is the supreme authority in the Methodist Church. When The United Methodist Church held their General Conference earlier this month, the delegation addressed the issues and voted on them. The decisions, which they made, were duly recorded and will be printed in the Book of Doctrine and Discipline of the United Methodist Church. These will govern the entire church, its members and clergy for the next four years. It is self-governing and the discipline is built into it. When the General Conference of the African Methodist Episcopal Church is convened at the end of next month, we will likewise do the same.

In addition to the General Conference, the Book of Doctrine and Discipline outlines the procedure for four other conferences as well. These govern the actions taken at every level of the church from the Local Church to the District, Annual Conference, Episcopal District and General Church.

So let me say again. I consider an attack on any branch of Methodism as an attack on me as well. Like a Jewish, Catholic, Blonde, Polish, Black or Redneck joke, I personally take offence to it.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2004

Clarification:

I am straight. My upbringing teaches me that homosexuality is a sin.

I have friends and co-workers that are gay. They know that I am a minister. Do I hate them? NO. Do I hate their SIN? Absolutely, just as I hate MY OWN SINS. The minister in me wants to help them deal with their sin/thorns, just like I would help someone caught in the grip of alcoholism, drug addiction, and/or spousal abuse. The minister in me does NOT condemn them; I don't have that right.

About the streets: Do I parade my sins in the street for all to see? No. Do I make my sexual desires and fantasies known outside of my own bedroom? No.

If you and your spouse like to wrestle in a jacuzzi filled with strawberry jello, go for it; I don't want or need to know. If you like to tie each other up, that's your thing; but don't try to tell my child that bondage is o.k., and they should experiment with it.

That's what I meant by the streets thing.

In the end, I don't have to answer to God for your behavior; I have to answer for mine. I have to answer to him for my teaching and preaching of the Word. But if I lead you astray, I have to answer for that. If I let someone else lead you astray, I have to answer for that. I must call sin for what it is: sin. Whether it is rebellion, ignorance, a choice, a genetic pattern, or a combination, it's a sin, and I have a duty to point that out in Scripture.

About destroying God's law: Our God IS stronger than Congress, the House, Daddy and Baby Bush...but it's the people who vote (or don't). It's that "free will" thing. Those congresspeople will follow the wishes of the people who make the most noise. But it should be obvious to anyone that they aren't voting with Christian consciences. The next 4 years are going to be very interesting for Christians, and our values.

With respect to the heteros getting divorced:

I'd be curious to see what the demographics are for those people.

How many are Christian marriages? Did the marriage break up for infidelity? homosexuality? abuse? theft?

Stats mean nothing unless we have the whole picture. 50% of marriages end in divorce, but that means that 50% of marriages last till death. Half-full or half-empty?

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2004

It is critical that the Black community demonstrate the courage to teach and spank its people about the dangers of STD's, especially HIV/AIDS. As a people, far too many of us deny our reality and spend precious time fighting the messenger. Can't we see that far too many of us are being orphaned----both intellectually and physically? We must begin to legislate our morality since time is running out to appeal solely to our intellectuality. Younger, more impressionable and older, more bullheaded will devastate our population in very short time, if we do not move aggressively to take hold of this issue. [Every day I do my part. Why can't many more of us].

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2004

Sister Carrie Rose:

It is not the "Black Community" that is the problem. The people who engage in anal sex will eventually die of AIDS. The problem is that some of them who call themselves bi-sexual will spread it and kill their wives/girlfriends too. As soon as this behavior stops, the epedemic will stop. In the meantime, teach your children to abstain from sex until marriage to womeone who has done the same. Then be faithful to that person.

-- Anonymous, June 01, 2004