I always wondered why some Christians did not believe in Purgatory. I read it in Macabees (but then learned why it was not in the Protestant Bibles), and read it in the early Fathers writings. I want to share these writings with you

Abercius

"The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius" (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity

"[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and [I] knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).

Tertullian

"[T]hat allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25–26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge . . . and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).

"We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]" (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).

"A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace [i.e., reconciliation] is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord" (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Lactantius

"But also, when God will judge the just, it is likewise in fire that he will try them. At that time, they whose sins are uppermost, either because of their gravity or their number, will be drawn together by the fire and will be burned. Those, however, who have been imbued with full justice and maturity of virtue, will not feel that fire; for they have something of God in them which will repel and turn back the strength of the flame" (Divine Institutes 7:21:6 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out" (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire" (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).

John Chrysostom

"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them" (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

"Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extent of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf" (Homilies on Philippians 3:9–10 [A.D. 402]).

Augustine

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death" (ibid., 172:2).

"Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).

"The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator [Mass] is offered for them, or when alms are given in the Church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterward be able to be helped by these things. There is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicked that these helps are of no avail after death" (ibid., 29:109).

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 22, 2004

Answers

bump

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 22, 2004.

bumpity bump bump

-- Paul Thomas (Lisztman1@hotmail.com), April 22, 2004.

Of those quoted only these four you quoted show the existence of a different place. What is the name of that place? We don't know.Is it Hell or purgatory?

Martyrdom of Felicitas and Perpetua-a dream

Do you believe in dreams Andrew?

Even this dream mentions several gloomy places.

"[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . .I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).

Tertullian thinks that this place isn a place of punishment. Something like Hell. So is he talking of Hell then?

...and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).

Cyprian also thinks this a place of torment. Fire is used to purify people. So can spirits be burned?Is he talking about Hell?

It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord" (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine besides prayer believed that giving out money on behalf on the dead helps them. It is not in scripture. You cannot buy God. otherwise the super rich could buy their way into Heaven.

But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of ChristTemporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).

So other than the dream by Perpetua, no indication of what purgatory is. She was not even told what that place is, except it was a sad place. There many others like it ,too.

My questions, then are can you torture a spirit by fire? Is purgatory a place of fire like Hell?

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 23, 2004.

italics off

-- (closing@tags.com), April 24, 2004.

thanks for the informative contribution "closing@tags.com"

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 25, 2004.

Elipido,

You said "Do you believe in dreams Andrew?", and reading it seemed like you were sarcastic. What kind of reply is this??? Do I believe in inspired dreams? YES, I do! Why? Cause Scripture has frequent examples of God communicating through dreams. Think: Joseph was warned to leave Bethlehem in a dream, then was told when Herod died. Additionally, John's Revelation is a complete vision.

God can communicate whatever way he chooses, and you are living a dream if you think that he doesn't or hasn't spoken through them

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 25, 2004.

Andrew, it seems clear that you are well read in many subjects, and I enjoy reading many of your statements. Indeed, I believe I have read your posts on a different web site as well. However, I am deeply discouraged by the way you harshly cut down other individuals. Please have a certain professional respect for others when writing. Remember, what you say online is available to everyone in the world via Google. You, and everyone else posting comments in the name of Christianity, ought always to strive to bring glory to Christ. If not, then all of the discussion becomes nothing but vain babbling.

-- independent party (keenobserver@yahoo.com), December 09, 2004.

I read something amusing in the last part of this old thread:

''My questions, then are can you torture a spirit by fire? Is purgatory a place of fire like Hell?'' The Christian Yahwist (self-styled.) --

Torture? The holy souls in Purgatory have nothing to fear. There's pain; temporal or spiritual, we don't know. Not agony or torture. I don't want to quibble. but God speaks of purifying the soul of his servants in the manner of gold; in which the dross is burnt away and pure gold alone is rendered Him. And Saint John the baptist declared One coming after Him; Jesus--

''I baptise you with water, but He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.'' This presumed baptism in fire must mean a further testing before we can be acceptable before God in His glory. Purified, not ''tortured''.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 09, 2004.

I woiudl liek to chime in... Maccabees, it is clamed, was removed by the evil Protesntats because they hated Purgetory. This is implied atleats by Andrew. However, the Jews also reject it as Scripture... and thy coudkn care less about either Potestnats or Catholics...

It is removed because it was beleived not to be inspired, and not part of the Jewish Cannon. Not becuase of the (Limited) Mentioend of Purgetory.

( Purgetory isnt rellay mentioend in the Maccabees, and the reference usually used ot support it is rather, well, vauge, and an be alternatily interpreted.)

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 09, 2004.

If the two books of Maccabees are not divinely inspired, then the Church which included them in the Canon along with the other 71 books obviously did not possess the ability to distinguish between inspired scripture and non- inspired texts. Therefore we have NO Scriptures which we can know with certainty are divinely inspired. It's really all or nothing. If the Canon is a divinely inspired and infallible list, then its 73 books are sacrosanct. If it isn't, then we have no infallibly defined Scriptures, and there is really no reason why I should view the Gospel of John as any more authoritative than the Gospel of Thomas.

Maccabees clearly encourages the practice of praying for the deceased, something Christians have done from earliest days. What "alternate interpretation" could justify such a practice?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 09, 2004.

If someone is going to pooh pooh purgatory "purgation" the state of purification" because it mentions "fire" and laughs at the problem of trying to burn an immaterial soul with material fire, he should at least have the decency (or intelligence) to explain what he believes Hell to be full of!

We know that Hell has "fire" - what that is exactly, we don't know. But if that state, prepared for God for the fallen angels (and not originally for man, as CS Lewis notes) has something that the scripture writer can refer to as "fire" then why can't a temporary state or condition of purgation not also have something akin to "fire"?

The key to scriptural exegisis and interpretation is CONSISTENCY! If you pooh pooh something in one text ,you have to be damn sure it doesn't wipe out the settled meaning in another.

Amazingly, many Protestants seem to have a compartimentalized understanding of scripture such that they can machine-gun proof texts at a man without noting the MEANING and principles behind the texts!

Take for example the Gospel of John. They will pooh pooh Jesus saying his words about eating and drinking his flesh and blood are literal by harking on his words "my words and spirit and life" and then conclude (irrationally) that that means he was speaking metaphorically.

Well, fine, if so, then lets go through the whole Gospel of John and every time he uses that phrase we will define it as a metaphor? God is a metaphor? Life is a metaphor?

A Catholic will realize (especially with metaphysics) that nothing is more real than spirit and life! Nothing is MORE SUBSTANTIAL than spirit! Just because you can't see it corporally doesn't make it any less real... can you see "life"? No! You see colors and motion, not life. Life is the organizing principle of matter, the animator, not what is animated. Matter itself is not alive, it is lived through.

Oh what's the point? How many people have studied this stuff properly?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 09, 2004.

Yes, it's ironic.

Gospel of John; ''They will pooh pooh Jesus saying words about eating and drinking his flesh and blood are literal-- by harking on his words "my words and spirit and life" and then conclude (irrationally) he was speaking metaphorically.''

Only why would He subsequently say at the Last Supper, ''Take and eat it, this is my body; and Drink it, this is my blood,'' making true those words in John 6:54 to :59 --? ? ? The latter words fulfilling the former conclusively.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 09, 2004.

I mrey said the Protestnats wherentt he only oens to reject it, and they wherent removed nased soley on the teachign of purgetory, as andrew thought.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 09, 2004.

Be careful when claiming that Jesus was talking literally about His flesh and blood. It is indeed true that one cannot go through the New Testament claiming that all of Jesus' statements are purely metaphorical. Likewise, it is as grave an error to assume that all His statements are literal, and not metaphorical. Take, for example, Jesus' claim that He is a door, or His claim that his is a vine. Clearly, these are metaphorical statements, since Jesus is not literally a door (He was not made of wood), nor is He a plant (He may be 100% man and 100% God, but He is not at all a plant). Likewise, He claimed to be a lamb, although that too is metaphorical. Therefore, those who claim that Jesus' reference to his body and blood is metaphorical do indeed have Scriptural backing.

-- independent party (keenobserver@yahoo.com), December 09, 2004.

Read the WHOLE chapter, “independent” party. Immediately after Jesus told His followers He would give them His flesh to eat, the great majority of them declared that these words were intolerable, and turned away from Him. Did Jesus shout after them “Wait! You made a terrible mistake! I only meant that as a metaphor!”? NO. He just let them go, and said to the remaining few, “Will you also go away?”, to which St Peter answered “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life.” The very thing which those of little faith rejected as intolerable, is what gives us everlasting life.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 09, 2004.

Steve is right and it would do us all good to re-read the WHOLE OF JOHNS GOSPEL. See how Jesus deals with people asking him for clarifications... when he says that a man must be "born again" and Nicodemus thinks this is LITERAL and asks how this is possible, Jesus replies immediately explaining that this is spiritual.

When the woman at the well asks how it's possible for him to give her "living water" when he has no bucket, he immediately explains that his words are metaphors, ie. not literal.

But when he says the discourse in John 6, he DOESN'T go out and correct them with explanations of metaphoric flesh and blood. The communion we receive is thus, substantially (spiritually) his flesh and blood, while apparently (visibly, accidentally) bread and wine.

Understanding how it is possible to believe that the bread and wine has become Jesus Christ is actually easier than understanding how it is possible for God to become incarnate as a human being.

Jesus was 100% a man - human mind and soul joined to a human body. But he was also God, through his person. How is this possible except through a real albeit invisible reality called "substance"?

You, the "who-ness" of Steve or Brian or Joe is your person - yet this person is not visible or material - proven when we die. Physically, materially, energicly (sp?) nothing has changed between a living man and a corpse. But the "Who" has substantially changed into a "what".

So the presence of a who is something we know conceptually, not perceptually...other than by mental habit since an animated human body is always a someone, a who, never a what.

But the guards and Pharisees saw only a man, not God when they looked at Jesus. It took more than perception, to know the WHO they were dealing with. Miracles - such as the creation ex nihilo of bread and fish, or the instant calming of the wind and seas, or the abridging of the physical nature of liquid water... all supplied reasons for humans to conclude that there was someONE qualitatively different in what by all appearances was a man, this Jesus guy.

And as the book of Tobit explains, angels can appear as men, but don't bleed like men. So obviously Jesus was a real man, by nature, but his person wasn't a human person.

If you believe this, then you've believed more than that God almighty can change the substance of bread and wine into the substance of human flesh and blood.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 10, 2004.