Abortion Question

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DOes anyone know when the Church first declared abortion to be murder? I have been challenged by someone that the Church's teaching that abortion = murder is only a recent development and that while the Church fathers considered it a sin they did not consider it as murder . I have found a web page that appears to support his position.

http://www.cath4choice.org/nobandwidth/English/cathwomen/abortiondecision.htm

I would like this web pages infomation tobe verified if anyone is aware of the history of church teaching on abortion over the past 2000 years? IS it accurate?

Thankyou

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 22, 2004

Answers

Kiwi, I am shocked at you!!! An old fart to the forum such as yourself, should know better and "bump" your new thread to "Recent Answers" to provoke further discussion by placing a second post in it! HAHAHA!

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), April 22, 2004.

I'm sure some of the more learned people here can give a detailed history but I'll put my oar in first as far as I understand it.

In the ancient world there were basically two schools of thought - those who thought human life began when the first menstrual period was missed (of course we now know it is about 14 days earlier), and those who thought that the parts of the human body were assembled in the womb and then suddenly came alive (like the spark to Frankenstein's monster) at about 5 months when the mother could first feel the fetus moving - the "quickening" i.e. coming alive.

Consequently abortion of a fetus under 5 months was generally seen, both by Christians and pagans, as more seriously wrong than contraception but not definitely murder until the fetus was old enough that its movements could be felt.

Certainly Hippocrates the father of medicine regarded abortion as a serious crime - the oath taken by doctors says "I will do all possible to preserve life and cause no harm and in particular I will not give a woman a preparation to induce abortion." Of course we know abortion and infanticide were fairly common in the ancient Mediterranean world.

Then about 200 (?) years ago medical scientists showed conclusively that a living, growing human being exists from 9 months before birth. All churches then declared abortion of an unborn child of any age to be murder, and all civil governments enacted laws punishing it as murder. (Then about 100? years ago it was shown that the embryo is living and growing from the moment a sperm cell unites with an ovum.)

The strange thing is that the Church is accused of being locked in a medieval mindset and disregarding the discoveries of modern science (an argument based solely on the trial of Galileo - and even that evidence doesn't stand up). Yet in this vital question of modern life, the Church's doctrine has clearly been informed by modern scientific knowledge, but the pro-abortionists would have us go back to the middle ages! Indeed it is Western society as a whole which still embraces the old ignorant idea. Most people (and the laws in most Western countries since they were changed about 30 years ago) say they have no objection to an abortion up to about 5 months, but after that age most people strongly disapprove.

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), April 22, 2004.


Kiwi, now that I’ve rattled you a bit, let me have a go at your question. It seems to me that, from all eternity, the Church has taught that Abortion is murder. I recently read an article from a priest on this subject which you can read in its entirety here:

http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/catechismonabortion.htm#abo rtion

I will attempt to summarize what has been said at the above site as it relates to your question as well as throw in my own two cents worth. Forgive me if I don’t do the site justice.

We know Scripture teaches us that murder is wrong. From the beginning when Cain murdered Abel (Gen. 4: 10-11) God has made it clear that murder of another human being is not acceptable: “The LORD then said: "What have you done! Listen: your brother's blood cries out to me from the soil! Therefore you shall be banned from the soil that opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.” He reinforced this notion with the 5th Commandment He gave to Moses - "Thou shalt not kill".

Now that we know murder is forbidden by God, how do we tie abortion to murder? Well, for that we can look into Scripture further. In Jeremiah 1:5 we are told life begins at or before conception: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.”

Further early evidence that God believes life begins before birth can be found in Job 10:8-10 “Your hands have formed me and fashioned me; will you then turn and destroy me? Oh, remember that you fashioned me from clay! Will you then bring me down to dust again?”

Also, Scripture confirms we are known to God before birth since at birth He “delivers” (pardon the pun) us to our mothers: “Yet you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother's breast. Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since birth you are my God.” (Ps. 22:10-11); and again in Psalm 139:15 - “my bones were not hidden from you, When I was being made in secret, fashioned as in the depths of the earth.”

So Scripture has confirmed that God recognizes us (life) very early on in our lives, in fact, at conception. To snuff this life out in the womb, a life which has already been recognized by God, cannot be termed anything else but murder.

Early Church writings are abundant in the condemnation of abortion. Epistles of Barnabas, Tertullian, and many others make reference to it. One that I was aware of and quickly comes to mind can be found in the Didache: (2:2) “Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not corrupt youth; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use soothsaying; thou shalt not practise sorcery; thou shalt not kill a child by abortion, neither shalt thou slay it when born;...”

For modern-day confirmation of the Catholic stance on abortion, we can look at CDF Donum Vitae (I:1) which has stated: “Life, once conceived, must be protected with the utmost care; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.” Our Catechism is full of similar references.

The notion that life exists in the womb has been tied to Catholic teaching throughout the ages and to take that life is without a doubt, considered murder by God and His Church. Hope this helps.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), April 22, 2004.


I saw an item where John F. Kerry has no scruples about aborting a fetus, and would not concede any authority in the Catholic Church to accuse them of killing the unborn. He tried lamely to rationalize it by telling reporters, ''Why are the death penalty statutes not denounced, by the same bishops? That's killing human beings.''

We all have differing views about capital punishment, and it is a call to conscience just as surely as killing of those unborn. However, there's a great difference between the two. Lawful execution of convicted murderers do not equal the taking of innocent life. Unborn children by definition are guiltless. When the baby is aborted from his mother's womb, at whatever stage, an innocent has died. He was killed for merely being unwanted.

A convicted criminal is executed by the law, for his crimes. He is given every chance to make his peace with God; and even a chance to appeal for clemency. Who appeals for clemency in the matter of an unborn baby? Not even his mother. The murderer gets to appeal, but not the innocent child of Mommy's own bloodline. Is that justice? Is it justice, John F. Kerry?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 22, 2004.


Peter

What you quoted from the Hippocratic oath is incredible to me: "I will do all possible to preserve life and cause no harm and in particular I will not give a woman a preparation to induce abortion." I'm assuming that can't possibly still be included in the oath today. When did they strike this out or modernize the oath? What were the circumstances? Would you please fill us in if you know.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), April 22, 2004.



Today's version is: here

The classic version is: here



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 22, 2004.


The classic version is: here



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 22, 2004.


Word of the Lord:

THOU SHALL NOT KILL. Period.

No exemptions made for age or degree of sinfulness.

-- Patrick (Partick@Patrick.com), April 22, 2004.


Peter and Ed thanks for that fascinating, esp the Hippocratic oath wow you learn something new everday eh. Gives me plenty to reply with, thanks again

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 22, 2004.

"He tried lamely to rationalize it by telling reporters, 'Why are the death penalty statutes not denounced, by the same bishops? That's killing human beings.'"

Well it is but no one is listening. The Pope has intestly called for an end to capital punishment. But no one listens. It doesn't even make the news when a bishop does. Sad.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), April 22, 2004.



Scott,

Are you sure about this? I don't think he has called for an end to capital punishment. The church has always allowed that capital punishment may be necessary to protect society (including those in prison) from the murderer. The Pope's stance, I believe, is that capital punsishment is almost never necessary anymore to protect society from the offender, because we can keep the offender in jail for life, leaving open the chance that he may repent/reform. Though the Pope may personally believe that capital punishment should be abolished, he would be going against Catholic dogma if he said so.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), April 22, 2004.


Brian

Careful with that word "dogma". You mean "doctrine". A dogma is a doctrine which is an essential and unchangeable part of the Catholic faith. If you don't believe a dogma you are not a Catholic. I'm sure there are many orthodox Catholics (possibly including, as you say, the Pope) who believe that capital punishment is always wrong.

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), April 23, 2004.


Thanks for the correction Peter. Why do people constantly try to equivocate capital punishment and abortion? (Actually, I know the answer) It happens over and over again in this forum and other stuff I read and hear. Again to succinctly summarize the church's position on the death penalty and abortion:

Death penalty: allowed

Abortion: not allowed

PS--The classic Hippocratic oath, still blows me away. Wow!

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), April 23, 2004.


Yes. Personally I am opposed both to capital punishment and abortion, but it is amazing how many people in Australia are strongly and vocally opposed to CP, but when it comes to abortion, it's "I can't impose my views on anyone else." I'm sure they realise in their hearts that it's killing an innocent living human being (though maybe some have actually managed to convinvnce themselves it's not) but they're in denial of the obvious facts because they don't want to be seen as anti-feminist.

The other amazing aspect is how the feminist movement has been sucked in. Yeah right, a bloke can "sow his wild oats" anywhere he likes, he doesn't have to make any sort of commitment and has no responsibility, but "don't worry darling, if we should have a child, I'm giving you the "right" (and the reponsibility) to kill it!" - and they call that being a liberated woman!

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), April 23, 2004.


Isn't it telling that both of the plaintiffs involved in Roe v. Wade (Jane Roe (can't remember her real name) and also a woman from Georgia whose name escapes me) arenow strong opponents of abortion?

As Mother Theresa said "It is a shame that a child must die so that you may live as you please."

Pax et Bonum.

-- Thomas (psalm23@catholic.org), April 23, 2004.



Norma Jean McCorvey was/is Jane Roe's real name. Also, one of the founders of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws (NARAL), Bernard Nathanson, is now vehemently anti-abortion, and converted to catholicism in 1986. He claims that he is responsible for some 75,000 abortions. He also says that the first goal of NARAL was to "capture the media." Guess what their second goal was: "play the Catholic Card." He says that they tried to paint anyone who abhorred abortion as being under the influence of unenlightened old men in Rome, while they touted anyone, but especially Catholics, who believed in abortion as being enlightened, compassionate, and independent.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), April 23, 2004.

We really need to understand that this assult on the unborn is a fundamental assult on natural law as established by God. It trancends any religion, and it predates any religion. It is a fundamental attack on the human social structure.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 23, 2004.

This could go into any one of several threads. I was originally thinking of the "Anything worse than war thread," maybe I still will, but this seemed the most appropriate abortion thread.

Title of article in Lifesitenews.com: U.S. Archbishop: Life Concerns Paramount And Eclipse Any Other Considerations When Voting Political compromise possible on many social justice issues but not abortion

An excerpt: "There is no right more fundamental than the right to be born and reared with all the dignity the human person deserves," says the Archbishop. "On this grave issue, public officials cannot hold themselves excused from their duties, especially if they claim to be Catholic. Every faithful Catholic must be not only 'personally opposed' to abortion, but also must live that opposition in his or her actions.... "But with abortion (and for example slavery, racism, euthanasia and trafficking in human persons) there can be no legitimate diversity of opinion," he says."

For the whole article click here

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 05, 2004.


I don't know the answer to this one. If you are the type of person to go digging after the information yourself, the following Church documents would be a good place to begin:

Pope Innocent III's decree Sicut Ex (1211), which differentiated between abortions based on whether they occurred before or after animation of the fetus. (I have been unable to find this document, either on line or in the library.)

This decree from the Council of Vienne (1312).

Pope Gregory XIV's abrogation in 1591 of Pope Sixtus V's bull Effraenatam (1588), which declared abortion at any stage of fetal development to be murder.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


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