Ebionites and Christian Yahwismgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
What are Ebionites?Who are the Ebionites from Paul's days?
What is Christian Yahwism?
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 19, 2004
In response to inquiries by Kevin, Ian, Rod, Jim, Faith, Gail, and Davidabout where I stand
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 19, 2004.
I'm still reading that information; it is very interesting. It is gonna take quite some time to sort everything in its place.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 19, 2004.
Could it be our jewish-ness in our last names, Elpidio?...........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 19, 2004.
"Are the Ebionites Christians?We are in no way Christian or supportive of Christianity. We consider Christianity to be a type of Mystery Religion devised by Paul of Tarsus and others. We believe that there is no relationship between Christianity (actually better described as Paulism) and the man Christians refer to as "Jesus." For that matter, since Christians often claim that "Christian" means Christ-like (that is like "Jesus"), it is most unfortunate that there are few who could honestly make that claim.
Some scholars categorize the ancient Ebionites as Christian or Jewish-Christian. That description is unjustified and untenable. In fact there is no such thing as a Jewish-Christian just as there are no Muslim-Christians."
Elp, i discovered this when i first reiased the point i did. you have previously described your Christianity as Pauline and traditional.
there is a contradiction here.
pls explain.
are you just kidding around?
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 19, 2004.
My, point, Ian. I am not an Ebionite 100% as you thought. They exclude a lot of people.James and the other brothers of the Lord, ...were Ebionites(The poor): (James was in charge of he Jerusalem Church, not Peter).
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
James had told Paul to support the poor(Ebionim):
Gal 2:10 Only [they would] that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
James says the poor(Ebionim) are God's chosen: Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
They were also called Nazoreans (Nazarenes), meaning either branch (From the branch of Jesse, the father of david, or keepers).It doesn't mean from Nazareth.
Jewish leaders describing James' church to which Paul belonged:
Act 24:5 For we have found this man [a] pestilent [fellow], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Such was their exclusion of others that Paul was given penance by James :
Act 21:18 And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
Act 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.
Act 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
So, as you can see, I am not 100% Ebionite (Nazarene or Nazorean).
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 19, 2004.
So , Ian, like the Ebionites (Nazoreans) I believe in Yahweh as the supreme God.So Yahwism is the state of going back to true worship. It is now a world phenomenon.
Check Eliya's page
Unlike them, I follow Paul. Galatians, Romans, and I Corinthians (My 3 biggies from him) state that God's salvation is for everyone. Acts confirms this.
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Cr 1:1 Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Cr 1:3 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Cr 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;
1Cr 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Cr 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 1:9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
Grace is vailable from God the Father (Yahweh) for those who believe.
The Ebionites, Essenes, Nzaoreans , even of today are an exclusive group. They reject Paul.
The Christians think they know Paul. They think he is a trinitarian. But, as you were able to see from Paul's oldest letters, he distinguishes God the Father from Jesus. No mention of the Holy Spirit as a person.
That makes me a Christian Yahwist.
I believe God has opened his heart once more for people to worship him. He's calling everyone.
The Man of Yahweh.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 19, 2004.
Jewish followers of Jesus were not called Christians but Nazoreans.Usually transcribed Nazarenes, not the same as Nazirites, people who make a vow, let their hair grow,... while Nazoreans are keepers or watchers of the faith.
Acts 24:5
For [1063] gar we have found [2147] heurisko this [5126] touton man [435] aner [a] pestilent [3061] loimos [fellow], and [2532] kai a mover [2795] kineo of sedition [4714] stasis among all [3956] pas the Jews [2453] Ioudaios throughout [2596] kata the world, [3625] oikoumene and [5037] te a ringleader [4414] protostates of the sect [139] hairesis of the Nazarenes: [3480] Nazoraios
Numbers 6:5 of the vow [05088] neder of his separation [05145] nezer there shall no razor [08593] ta`ar come [05674] `abar upon his head: [07218] ro'sh until the days [03117] yowm be fulfilled, [04390] male' in the which he separateth [05144] nazar [himself] unto the LORD, [03068] Y@hovah he shall be holy, [06918] qadowsh [and] shall let the locks [06545] pera` of the hair [08181] se`ar of his head [07218] ro'sh grow. [01431] gadal
Quotations from the Blue Bible
From Easton's Bible Dictionary (found in the Blue Bible):
Nazareth separated, generally supposed to be the Greek form of the Hebrew _netser_, a "shoot" or "sprout." Some, however, think that the name of the city must be connected with the name of the hill behind it, from which one of the finest prospects in Palestine is obtained, and accordingly they derive it from the Hebrew _notserah_, i.e., one guarding or watching, thus designating the hill which overlooks and thus guards an extensive region.
This city is not mentioned in the Old Testament. It was the home of Joseph and Mary ( Luk 2:39), and here the angel announced to the Virgin the birth of the Messiah ( 1:26-28). Here Jesus grew up from his infancy to manhood ( 4:16); and here he began his public ministry in the synagogue ( Mat 13:54), at which the people were so offended that they sought to cast him down from the precipice whereon their city was built ( Luk 4:29). Twice they expelled him from their borders ( 4:16-29; Mat 13:54-58); and he finally retired from the city, where he did not many mighty works because of their unbelief ( Mat 13:58), and took up his residence in Capernaum.
Nazareth is situated among the southern ridges of Lebanon, on the steep slope of a hill, about 14 miles from the Sea of Galilee and about 6 west from Mount Tabor. It is identified with the modern village en-Nazirah, of six or ten thousand inhabitants. It lies "as in a hollow cup" lower down upon the hill than the ancient city. The main road for traffic between Egypt and the interior of Asia passed by Nazareth near the foot of Tabor, and thence northward to Damascus.
It is supposed from the words of Nathanael in Jhn 1:46 that the city of Nazareth was held in great disrepute, either because, it is said, the people of Galilee were a rude and less cultivated class, and were largely influenced by the Gentiles who mingled with them, or because of their lower type of moral and religious character. But there seems to be no sufficient reason for these suppositions. The Jews believed that, according to Mic 5:2, the birth of the Messiah would take place at Bethlehem, and nowhere else. Nathanael held the same opinion as his countrymen, and believed that the great "good" which they were all expecting could not come from Nazareth. This is probably what Nathanael meant. Moreover, there does not seem to be any evidence that the inhabitants of Galilee were in any respect inferior, or that a Galilean was held in contempt, in the time of our Lord. ( See Dr. Merrill's Galilee in the Time of Christ.)
The population of this city ( now about 10,000) in the time of Christ probably amounted to 15,000 or 20,000 souls.
"The so-called 'Holy House' is a cave under the Latin church, which appears to have been originally a tank. The 'brow of the hill', site of the attempted precipitation, is probably the northern cliff: the traditional site has been shown since the middle ages at some distance to the south. None of the traditional sites are traceable very early, and they have no authority. The name Nazareth perhaps means 'a watch tower' ( now en-Nasrah), but is connected in the New Testament with Netzer, 'a branch' ( Isa 4:2; Jer 23:5; Zec 3:8; 6:12; Mat 2:23), Nazarene being quite a different word from Nazarite."
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 22, 2004.
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.This probably happened in the 40s.
Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. (If Agrippa used Greek, Nazorean if he used Aramaic).
1Pe 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf (If the letter is in Greek, not a traslation from Aramaic, then is Christian, otherwise Nazorean).
As to the origins of the Ebionites as James followers see Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jam 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
The word Nazorean could derive from Netser, too, meaning branch, offshot. a rod [02415] choter out of the stem [01503] geza` of Jesse, [03448] Yishay and a Branch [05342] netser shall grow [06509] parah Natsarout of his roots: [08328] sheresh
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 22, 2004.
origin of Nazorean
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 22, 2004.
James in his letter states that the Ebionim (The Poor) will inherit God's Kingdom. This matches Mathew's and Luke's gospels on the blessings.Mat 5:3 Blessed 3107 [are] the poor 4434 in spirit (In dead sea scrolls: Evionim Zehed ) 4151: for 3754 theirs 846 is 2076 the kingdom 932 of heaven 3772.
Paul seems to call them Poor in Romans:
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
This tradition is still in use by modern Jews:
Jews- Gifts for the Poor-Evionim
This passage taken from there.
MATANOT LE-EVIONIM (GIFTS FOR THE POOR) Sometimes, when eating, drinking and being generally merry, we tend to forget about those who can't afford the best type of vodka. Or those who "absolutely" can't afford vodka at all. Incorporated into the body of four laws pertaining to Purim is this - one must give a monetary gift to at least two poor Jewish people. Now, realistically speaking, how easy is it to step out of your front door and plop a few dollars in the hand of the first two poor Jews you see swaggering down your street? And who is to say that the person you give will really accept the money (being too proud to take it)? The solution in many communities (or local synagogues) is the central collection idea: Everyone gives on Purim into the hat and it is redistributed to those in need. This way, the givers and the receivers remain anonymous (to each other) which is one of the highest forms of charitable- distribution (according to Maimonides). Maimonides also said in relation to Purim: "It is better for a man to increase gifts to the poor than to enlarge his feast and to increase gifts to his friends. For there is no greater and more wonderful joy than to make happy the hearts of the poor..." By the way, the money collected and distributed on Purim to the poor is often used to fund Passover, which is right around the corner.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 22, 2004.
The Essenes from this link:84. Communal Order at Qumran 2 They shall walk in these ways in all dealings with each other, wherever they dwell: --regarding work and wealth [mammon]: the lesser shall heed the greater. --but united they shall eat 3 and united they shall pray; and united they shall take counsel. --and in every locale where there are ten men from the common council, 4 --a priest shall not be lacking among them. and they shall sit before him each according to his rank; and thus they shall be asked for their counsel in every case. --and when they prepare the table for eating or the new wine 5 for drinking, the priest shall be the first to stretch out his hand for the blessing on the first portion of bread or new wine. --- Dead Sea Scrolls, Community Rule (1QS) 6.2-5
85. Council of Twelve 1 In the council of the community there shall be twelve men and three priests perfected in all that has been revealed from the whole 2 Torah: --for practicing truth and righteousness, justice and loving kindness and walking humbly with each other; 3 --for keeping faithfulness in the land with firm intention and contrite spirit; --for overcoming iniquity by deeds of justice and endurance of fiery trials; 4 --and for walking in all things by the standard of truth and the regulation for the occasion. --- Dead Sea Scrolls, Community Rule (1QS) 8.1-4
Taken from the above link Copyright © 1999-2003 by Mahlon H. Smith All rights reserved.
(click on Essenes to see full text).
Notice they have 12 members and 3 priests. That corresponds to Jesus 12 disciples. Also, Paul speaks of the 3 pillars: James, Peter, and John in Galatians
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
This shows Jesus spent those "40 days" with the Essenes after being baptized by John.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 22, 2004.
Did See Scrolls .................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 23, 2004.
Thanks David O. At last I have a place I can call home.Whether to mainline Christians (Trinitarians) I might look like a heretic (Arrian, Nestorian,...)
I nonetheles consider myself a Christian in basic beliefs, though not in dogmas. Christian Yahwism is here to stay.
In 1981 I didn't know exactly who Yahweh was. I thought he was Jehovah. Most likely I thought He was Jesus.
By 2004 7 members of my family also believe in Yahweh.
The First time I typed the name in 1998 I got less than 5000 hits. Now is over 100,000.
I am among the top Yahwists in production even though I am one of the ltest ones.
-Yahwists include messianic Jews, Essenes, Ebionites, Nazarene Essenes, Jehovah's Witnesses, Assemblies of Yahweh, Servants of Yahweh, ....even those who don't use the name like the Way International, Unitarians, Christadelphians.
I am from the Way, The Church of Yahweh in Christ Jesus.
The Christian Yahwist The Man Of Yahweh
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 19, 2004.