Can Satan Be Saved?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
"A certain deception was indeed practised upon the Evil one, by concealing the Divine nature within the human; but for the latter, as himself a deceiver, it was only a just recompense that he should be deceived himself: the great adversary must himself at last find that what has been done is just and salutary, when he also shall experience the benefit of the Incarnation. He, as well as humanity, will be purged." (The Great Catechism, 26)
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 13, 2004
The short answer is 'No', Satan cannot be saved, and indeed the scriptures clearly reveal his doom. One difference between man and angelic beings is that angelic beings do not require faith. They walk by sight, they are spiritual and inhabit a realm where God is definately present. They appear before Him, as Job 1 and 2 shows, the devils also worshipped Christ, knowing full well Who He was. They have no excuse for any rebellion from the belief in and knowledge of God, indeed they 'believe and tremble'. Another factor is that Man is born a sinner and must be born again, by the Spirit, to receive salvation. Until this occurs man cannot please God. Satan and his angels are eternal beings who have ever known God and His pleasure yet chose to disobey Him in full possession of the facts and full knowledge of the judgement of God. A second chance therefore for Satan would not be just.-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 23, 2004.
It is stated in the bible Satan will be tossed in the pit for eternity. Now however long eternity is, is how long Satan will suffer. God is all powerful and what he says can be done. If God changes his mind, he could give Satan another chance, but it's all up to God, he can do what he pleases. -- John (mr_win2004@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
Gillian do you believe that God is omnipotent?
clearly not!
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 22, 2004.
dear Ian, yes, but I do not think His omnipotence affects His justice.
God Bless..
-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 23, 2004.
Gillian surely God created Satan. the person. the proclivity. all of it.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 22, 2004.
God as Creator does not interfere with His justice either. He also created man yet man will be judged. He created the earth but cursed it etc. One has to remember that God is Holy, Just and True, as I am sure you believe.
God Bless you...
-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 23, 2004.
A thought just occured to me. The Bible says: "All things are possible with God", so I guess it is possible for Satan to be saved. I think it is highly improbable though. Comments?
-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), February 21, 2004.
Hi James. I wrote about such a problem if Satan were Saved. I can't the write-up just now. But, I think Hell would have an entirely different abience. Man would have a different definition in Hell.
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
Satan's evil role would then become Man's role, if it isn't already Man's role. ...........................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
Dear rod, You are right, if Satan were saved hell would be different. Would it even exist? I think there are just some things that we cannot know in this lifetime and we need to sometimes learn to accept that. I think if we say no that Satan cannot be saved, then we put limits on God, which we cannot do. On the other hand, I think we would be foolish to say that such an event is likely. Of course, keep in mind that this is just my speculation, I could be highly wrong.
-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), February 21, 2004.
Rod, they can no longer say: The Devil made me do it!!!
People would then be worse than the Devil whoever he is!!!
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
I am gonna have to believe that God has one Salvation plan for us mortals. His Angels--even the fallen ones--have their existence to deal with, which is not at all like ours. The Angels already have eternal life in Heaven or Earth or Hell at situational times. I think such demons are allowed to roam away from Hell unlike the other souls there or soon to be there. I do believe that their battles are still in progress. .................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
Rod, you mean they are here on Earth inside our bodies? The Christian yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.....And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 'And the devil that deceived them' was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20 -- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 23, 2004.
Gillian sums it up with Revelations. I do believe that man can be possesed by demons, Elpidio. There are many mental abnormalities that are given clever scientic names. Well, replace those names with those names mentioned in Revelations. Sure, that's a simplistic way of viewing things, so those abnormalities may as well be those demons that posses us.
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
Whatever happened to free will, Rodrigo? -- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
Whatever happened to free will, Rodrigo? Then Demons will nevwer allow us to be saved, Rod.
The man of Yahweh.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
Well , it is the very Free Will that brings a soul to such a situation. Free Will allows us to chose a path. Some resort to vice while others do not. Addiction, hey many suffer with it. The monkey on their backs can be removed. But, it would take us who call themselves "Christian" to make the effort to pull that monkey off the victim's shoulders. The extreme would be an exorcism. Free Will has a double edge on it. ...................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
We all have the Free Will to become a Satanist, Atheist, Agnostic, or a Believer. Which choice will surely fry us? ...................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
God gave us Free Will. Anything or anyone who takes Free Will away is to be approached with caution. I think Satan would want to remove Free Will and, come to think of it, Calvinism has that peculiar attribute, too. .....................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
I think one has to understand which 'spirit' one lives by to understand man's free will. "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, 'the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience': Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Eph. 2:2,3
"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him 'at his will'." 2 Tim.2:25,26
-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 23, 2004.
Um....hmm...No, he can't be. But that didn't stop "Roman" church fathers from believing it.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 13, 2004.
I think that the early Church father Origin thought that Satin would eventually come back to God, as would all beings. I think also that he was condemned as a heretic in the 5th century....years after his death. (Or perhaps it was only certain of his teachings, I'll check)I understand he wrote 1000 books during his lifetime. He was a very bright light.
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), March 19, 2004.
Satan... not the fabric.
-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), March 19, 2004.
I thought cotton was the fabric of our lives. Sorry, I just had to do that.............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 20, 2004.
Rod, I think you're right. I'm pretty sure I have more cotton than Satan.Why is it I can only spell after I hit the "submit" button?
-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), March 20, 2004.
Funny, I've wondered the same thing about my spelling fiascos. It seems that 90% of my posts have errors.....that's spelling and grammatical errors, David. Silly mistakes abound. I was beginning to think that an external force was behind it. But, it is probably the multi-tasking our brains are suffering with. I think the phrase, but the fingers don't react fast enough, I guess. (Much like my piano playing.)...............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 20, 2004.
The Bible says that in Adam ALL die, and in Christ All shall be made alive.Evil is important as we wounot know good without evil. Satan was created by God for evil, God cannot commit evil on anyone. Good without the knowledge of evil can scarcely be called good at all. Who could possibly speak of the day if night had never been known? There was no first light if there were no darkness? What could we know of life if there were no death? What would we know of health if there were no sickness? What would we know of wealth if poverty had not spread its specter upon the earth? No man can be trusted until he has been EXPOSED TO THE OPPOSITES, until he has been tempted. No man can be declared strong until he has been tested for weakness. Nor can he be an overcomer until he has faced the dreadful foe. Those who are worthy to slay their Goliaths must first have slain their lion and their bear. No man can be an overcoming Son of God until he has encountered THE SERPENT IN THE WILDERNESS and come forth victorious!Dont worry everyone will eventually arrive at the party, even Satan.
-- dennis (duboisd31@shaw.ca), October 08, 2004.
Satan was already at the party. He was created there. He chose to reject the party and its Divine Host, a decision that is irreversible. And those who choose to follow Him down the road to self-destruction will likewise forfeit eternal life.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 08, 2004.
Is Satan,--- Judas? Because I really have some problems with this. If he was set up, then should he really be held responsible?Would God really do this to somebody, or would this be how we as humans would put it down as scripture.
If God were more like a shmele like me and wouldn't, than why would this have happened to Judas? I know as I've been taught that he's a bad guy. But why am I having conflicting feelings. Catholic? or Sinner?
-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 09, 2004.
Judas wasn't set up. But He was used by God to further His purpose. God--in His foreknowledge--knows our hearts and whether or not we will accept His Son.Just as God used Pharaoh's wickedness, He also used Judas's rejection of His Son to further His will.
God does not create puppets for destruction--but judges us justly-- even before we were created, he knew us.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 09, 2004.
FaithAnother good answer.
-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 09, 2004.
FaithThen, you may as well say that God uses Satan to get His Salvation plan in working order. That is not my understanding. God is not evil. We are not predestined anything, as you continually hang on to. God gave us free will--the only true measure of us accepting Him--and as a result, Satan became what he is, Judas became what he was, and we become what we are. I have checked and double checked; I still cannot find any strings attached to my body.
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.
Don't confuse predestination with free-will.Predestination is based on what we chose in this life.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 09, 2004.
Predestination is what God sees. He is all knowing. God may intervene what He sees fit to do so. He knows when I will experience joy in my life and when I cease to live on this earth. He doesn't pull any strings; He is the one who cut them off in the first place............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.
We can learn His plan here in our experiences. Isn't it rather obvious that, when we are born, each of us has the umbilical cord cut? We could have been born without the need of an umbilical cord. We could have been hatched out of an egg. Every infant must be released in order to live in the world. That sounds like free will to me............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.
rod..,I prefer to discuss Scripture.
If you'd like to do that--let me know.
Predestination according to Scripture--is when God predestines us to certain blessings because of His foreknowledge about what we did with HIs Son.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 09, 2004.
Faith.., I prefer to discuss everything. If you'd like to do that--let me know. Predestination according to Faith--is when God predestines us to certain blessings because of His foreknowledge about what we did with HIs Son.That's your view Faith.
If you want to discuss Scriptures with me, go ahead. But, you should expect me to pick and choose Scriptures like a game of cards or something. I'll will reveal my teachings and understandings of Scriptures my way. You don't have to respond to me if you feel uncomfortable. I know that it is difficult to discuss things with me, considering I'm not a "Sola Scriptura" player.
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.
oops!But, you shouldn't expect me to pick and choose Scriptures like a game of cards or something.
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.
"I'm not a "Sola Scriptura" player."No kidding???
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 09, 2004.
Okay rod..,So what is your measuring stick?
How do you determine truth?
You don't accept the Word of God as your sole source--nor do you accept the Roman Catholic Church' word...
So what then?
I think you rely on your emotions and when you make posts like this one:
We can learn His plan here in our experiences. Isn't it rather obvious that, when we are born, each of us has the umbilical cord cut? We could have been born without the need of an umbilical cord. We could have been hatched out of an egg. Every infant must be released in order to live in the world. That sounds like free will to me....
How am I suppose to respond? This post doesn't even address anything I was saying. I never denied free-will. You have me confused with David.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 09, 2004.
You say that I am confused about Predestination. I suppose that you are not?Of course, the Bible is not the "sole" source. It was been revised; how many times? Protestants even accuse the Catholic Church of tampering with the Scriptures, yet they fail to see the importance of the Catholic Church in regards to the Bible's compilations. You criticize me? Hmmmmm.
Faith, I am looking at your interpretations and other's. Somebody here is wrong. The Catholic Church seems more correct to me. But, like Eve's moments of doubt and disobedience, I too question everything that is out there, including the Catholic Church. I am more in tune with the Church because of my predicament. But, like Kevin and you preach, every man can understand the Scriptures and don't need the pope to figure it out for him. Really? If that is true, then you and Kevin should agree on everything that is Scriptural; hey! you don't agree. I bet your Bibles are also different. But, you do agree on a form of hatred towards the Catholic Church. I don't ever want to fall into that pit of hatred towards other faith systems. (If "hatred" is too strong a word, I apologize. It just seems like the truth.)
Intuition and emotionalism? Shoot! if it were that, I would have stayed with the Pentecostals, who are seeking signs and stuff. I love their gusto, though!
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.
I would love to see Protestants, Catholics, Atheists, Gnostics, Agnostics, Pagans, and every cult or denomination holding hands and accepting each other as humans who are together in this world. Of course, some of us will indeed fry in Hell. And, some of us will never accept Christ. Some of us will not accept Christ to another believer's standards, either. But, shouldn't we embrace each other the way Jesus intended us to?I do not have the power to convince anyone about accepting Christ. Oh sure, I can bring them to my views and my Bible and my understandings, but it is up to that person to gnaw and experience what Christ is all about. St. Thomas had to have proof that Christ had risen. I guess I'm a "Thomas" (John Gecik figured me out along time ago). Generally, these types don't like being fooled into believing things that require "blind faith". Some people don't need much to be converted--hello, "Sola Scriptura". But, gosh! why is there so much confusion about the Scriptures and the different denominations in this world? You are comfortable with your faith, Kevin with his, Elpidio with his, and on down the line. But, each of your beliefs have flaws when thrown against the wall of discernment. Just like you all find flaws in Catholicism, I find flaws in non-Catholicism. Well, we can argue the rest of our lives about what is "error"/"false". People have even gone to their deaths fighting over doctrine/theology.
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.
" ...you may as well say that God uses Satan to get His Salvation plan in working order."I think he does rod.
2Thessalonians 2 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.
Thanks, Luke.That verse looks more like a damnation plan. I guess I need to go back and do some more studying about God and Satan being weaved together in Salvation.
Thanks, again for pointing to that Scripture, Luke.
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 10, 2004.