When did the Church begin?

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When did the Church begin?

-- david silvestri (davidsilvestri@aol.com), February 21, 2004

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 13, 2004

Answers

founded by Jesus, 2000 years ago.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 22, 2004.


33AD, the day of the Pentecost? 2000 years? can't be. you still need least 26 more years before you can say that =)

-- @ (@@@.@), February 22, 2004.


didn't the Church begin in the 16th century?

-- david silvestri (davidsilvestri@aol.com), February 22, 2004.


nope, 1600's was the reformation of a corrupted church. god showed them the light, and the truth

-- @ (@@@.@), February 22, 2004.


you mean the Church was corrupt for 1500 years until the revolt? could that be possible?

-- david silvestri (davidsilvestri@aol.com), February 23, 2004.


Actually what most sola scriptura types argue is that the Churches that developed through the reformation were just as corrupt as the Catholic Church. Therefore, Lutheranism, Calvinism, Anglicanism are all paths to hell. They argue that their own churches are the true descendants of the churches formed by the Apostles. The problem with their argument however is that they have no historical evidence that their churches go all the way back to the Apostles. I guess they think that the evil Catholics burned all the historical manuscripts that shows that their churches derive from the Apostles.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), February 23, 2004.


Jesus said that His church is not of this world anyway...so everyone is wrong!

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2004.


Actually Faith,

Jesus said that his Kingdom is not of this world, he actually said to Peter:

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

So in this case Faith, you are wrong.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), February 23, 2004.


No., actually James..,

What Jesus said is that he will build his church on the proclamation that Peter made, which is that Jesus is the Christ--the Son of the living God. That is the foundation of the church.

And Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world. His kingdom and His church are the same thing. Both His kingdom and His church are a body of believers....growing in number every day : )

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2004.


How can "kingdom" and "church" be the same thing?

Try to seperate "kingdom" and Heaven.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.


The kingdom of God will be established as heaven.., from what I can gather....a new heaven(sky) and new earth will be it's location at the end of this age.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2004.


So, there is definition between "Church" and "Kingdom".

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.


Yes, Rod. You are right.

Jesus, even though he desceded from King David, could not be king in this life.

So God gave him a heavenly kingdom.(psalm 110)

The church meaning those called out (ek-lesias)begins on Earth. But from this group come the elect who will be part of the Kingdom. Not everyone in the Church will be saved.

Matthew 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The Man of Yahweh

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.


As to when did the Church begin?

If you mean the body of believers, then probably with Abraham over 3500 years ago.

If you mean Jesus Christ, then after his execution by crucifixion in AD 33AD (or 30. Since only 2 dates agree with a Friday crucifixion).

Original name: The Way

The way split into a Jewish group: Ebionites, Nazoreans and a gentile group: Christians by about 70 AD.

By 200-300 church started calling itself catholic to distinguish it from Gnostic groups.

By 325 Catholic group broke into Arrians, followers of Arrius and Catholics, followers of Athanasius.

By 381 the Catholic group triumphed.

By 431 the Catholic gropu broke into Nestorians and catholics.

In the 500s the Catholics broke into Monophosites and Catholics. Modern Monophites are the Copts, Syrians, Armenians, Ethiopians.

By 1054 Cathloics split into Roman Catholics (Pope) and Orthodox Catholics (Eastern).

By 1530s Catholics split into Lutherans, Anglicans,Calvinists, Presbyterians, Reformed,Roman Catholics,Catholics,...

1870s Roman Catholics broke into Old catholics and Roman Catholics

1960s-1980s Roman Catholics broke into Pius X society(Mel Gbson and Co) and Roman Catholics.

Now, The way, The Church of yahweh in Christ Jesus.I myself used to be Roman Catholic. I finally broke away in 2004. It took me ayear and a half of constant prayer to do so.

The Christian Yahwist- The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.


testing....

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 13, 2004.

Elp

there is, i submit, a golden thread that runs throughout your little, potted history of schism, heresy and apostasy.

can you see it!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 15, 2004.


Well, Ian, what can I say: Today's heretic becomes tomorrows Orthodox man.

Catholics are a heretical group from the way, the original Church. The Way was a heretical group from Judaism. I a heretical from catholicsm....

But I am not heretical from God.

.....One day...

The grass will be greener on the other side.

Serenidad y paciencia, Solin, mucha paciencia, Kaliman used to say to his buddy. Mucha paciencia.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 16, 2004.


Elpidio

is this is where you faith stands or falls? ie "The way split into a Jewish group: Ebionites, Nazoreans and a gentile group: Christians by about 70 AD. "

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 17, 2004.


let me re-phrase that.

you are the "modern day" Ebionite? is that your assertion?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 17, 2004.



Sort of Ebionite(James) and Pauline(Paul).Ebionites believed in Circumcision. I don't think Gentiles need it. Paul did not clarify to well for James what he meant by justification by faith.

I do.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 17, 2004.


i thought we were starting to pin you down Elpidio!!

however, i see that you fall somewhere between 2 stools. a little bit of research tells me that the Ebionites refer to Christians as Paulists, believeing that St Paul led the faith astray.

in fact there is one website out there that seems to consider St Paul to be the beast of the Apocalypse.

on another Ebionite site, the steadfastly refuse to be labelled Christian or to pray or associate with Christians.

somehow, you marry the 2 together!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 17, 2004.


Maybe, Ian, that is why Yahweh God and Jesus appeared 3 1/2 years ago on July 23.

World religions tend to disenfranchise their membership that in the end they will be left without members.

To me religion is about loving God and our fellow human beings, even when some are complete as....

I had already quit discussing God with others. I had entered the Catholic Forum in 1999 but never participated. My first post there was in 2001. Right after my dream.

Yahweh told me to go to Protestants (they have the Bible but don't see him)

while Jesus to Catholics (They pray to Mary, The saints,..only call Jesus when they really in trouble).

My wife is the one receiving messages from God and Jesus lately. She talked to Jesus even before me in 1999. She talked to God in December and in March.

My mother is the other one who talks to Jesus way back in 1985.

As you can see, I don't have a monopoply on the truth or on visions. Neither was I the first in my family to see Jesus.

What makes me different is I am the only one who received a command.

Maybe that was the problem with the Ebionites: too exclusive.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 17, 2004.


Elpidio,

How can you truthfully call yourself, "The Christian Yahwist" when you do not even believe the confession that Peter made of Jesus in Matthew 16:16 "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."???

To be a Christian, one has to be "of Christ" and ONLY those who have obeyed the gospel of Christ are those who can be called Christian.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 18, 2004.


One more thing.

The WAY is NOT a name for the church. This is spoken of in Acts 24:14, "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the WAY, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

The New Testament does not teach that the church was given an official name.

The church began on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem according to Acts chapter 2 when the apostle Peter preached the first gospel sermon.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 18, 2004.



The quotation you made from Acts says it all, Kevin:

"according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

The Way is called a sect (Greek hairesis, meaning division). From this word originated the word heretic, heresy,..

So using modern sense of word, The Way is called a heresy. That is, Jesus movement was heretical.

By the way, Kevin, The Way is how some of those at the Qumran caves called their movement too.

Have you read the dead sea scrolls?

You will be fascinated by what you wll find!!!

Besides the Way, Kevin, you will find in those scrolls new words to understand the true meaning of the Poor of Spirit in Matthew, which Luke simply calls the poor. Hebrew for poor is Ebionim, from where we get Ebionites, Jesus early Jewish followers. The words there are Ebionim Hezed, the pius poor.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 18, 2004.


Who are you to say their faith is false and their way is wrong? Are you not being hypocrites!? The Lord only can condemn, for He is perfect. Why not try uniting the Church as one! For the Church is His Kingdom on Earth!

-- Hobbes (hobbitgonewild@yahoo.com), December 02, 2004.

Elpidio,

You didn't answer the question.

The New Testament does "not" teach that the church was given an official name.

Yes, the Bible states the "way" was called a "sect" however, this was not an offical name of the church.

Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the WAY, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

The church began on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem according to Acts chapter 2 when the apostle Peter preached the first gospel sermon after Jesus death, burial and resurrection.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 02, 2004.


Kevin,

The Jews had no concept of Church the way we undrstand it. For them kehal means those called out. They could be divided in beliefs but still think of themselves as one people(that is, one church).

Paul's preaching created a problem and the rest of Jesus disciples proseltizing created a huge problem. Could genntiles be part of Eretz Israel (people of Israel) or not.

According to Josephus the Jewish historian, Pharisees are a sect, and Saducces are a sect, but both rejected The Way (Acts 24) which also is a sect (as Paul states), then by rejecting it, then The Way can truly be thought out as a different Church than Eretz Israel.

Thus, The Way is the name of the original Church. Yet, it was still also called The Church of God in Christ Jesus according to Paul. See the beginning of each of his letters.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 02, 2004.


I find myself agreeing n part with Elpidio-- the church existed long before Pentecost.

Stephen described Israel as the "church in the wilderness" before the Sanhedrin (Acts 7:38)

The Psalmist also described worship as a church (Psalm 22:22)

If we think logically, God has had his "elect" and "called out" (as Faith pointed out) thoughout the ages. Even though Jesus did not build "my church" until much later, the prophets and righteous men who lived by faith are considered part of the church as well.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 03, 2004.



"If we think logically..."

Luke.

"If we think logically"......the Church was "invented/made" at the Crucifixion, and manifested itself at the Pentecost.

those pre-dating the Church could therefore -- "If we think logically" -- be judged by the applicable rules of the time. circumcision etc.

i wonder if you or Elpidio believe that Moses was both "original- sinless" and "sinless". to posit but one example.

favoured, no doubt.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 08, 2004.


Ian, those who lived before and during the Old Covenant were saved by having faith in God and obeying him, just as all those who have lived under the New Covenant are saved. Circumcision could never justify, as no part of the law could justify. Righteousness and therefore salvation could not come through the law, and it's purpose was to condemn the world basically. The "righteous" under Mosiac law weren't those who were circumcised or who observed sabbaths, but those who had faith in God.

This is why the church is not limited to Christians after Pentecost

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 08, 2004.


I could not have said it better, Luke.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 08, 2004.


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