Under the Law...,Question for Davidgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
I was wondering how Abraham was able to please God under the Law? If Paul really means that no one in the flesh--the sinful nature, under the Law can please God, then how did Abraham please God?Is it possible that although a sinful man who allows himself to be controlled by his flesh in the sin nature cannot please God--that he can change his mind and choose what is good by believing God?
I mean, was Abraham regenerated or born-again?
Just curious??
-- Faith (faith01@myway.com), February 15, 2004.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2004
Faith, good question actually.Here is what I know:The Law had not yet been given to man. It was given to Moses upon the mountian, and passed to the hewbrews. Abraham was not under the law, so he could not please God by it. How did he please God then?
Paul in Romans,, James in his book, both speak of the righteousness of Abraham.
Romans 4 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'"
James 2 "Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Issac on the alter? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete bye what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
Remember, Adam and Eve had no law either, but only to trust and obey God. When they did not do this, they were cast out of Eden. And so it was before the law came, that faith through obedience was how Abraham, and others, pleased God.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 17, 2004.
Thank you Luke.. That is an interesting answer.
But what about the sin nature and curse. Abraham was effected by it even though the Law hadn't been introduced, right? He was in a sinful state--yet he was able to please God by choosing good. Yes?
Yet it is believed that Paul said we could not please God in this state. Do you think Paul might have been making a different kind of statement than what the Calvinist, lets say., thinks??
-- (faith01@myway.com), February 17, 2004.
dear Faith, I think Romans 4 may answer your questions, it is all about the subject you mention. For example:
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."
Imputed righteousness (Christ's) comes by faith. We never 'become' righteous by what we do, but have righteousness 'imputed' by what, or rather 'Whom' we believe.
And yes, I believe that Abraham was born again.
God Bless you...
-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), Feburary 18, 2004.
Thank you Gillian---and I agree with you. What does Abraham's being able to choose to believe God even while in the sin nature do to Calvin thought that says no man can choose Christ of his own accord while in the sin nature unless God causes him to do so by regeneration? Do we read in the Old Testament that God regenerated or caused Abraham to believe Him?
I am having this discussion with a Christian friend on another site, who is leaning towards Calvinism. I thought David might be able to answer me this question.
But I agree with you on your understanding. Thanks : )
-- (faith01@myway.com), February 18, 2004.
We don't know where David has gone to. Rod is calling from another thread. -- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 18, 2004.
He's around--I see that he posted his daily verses on the 16th and the 17th. Maybe he doesn't have the answer. My friend on the other site doesn't either. -- (faith01@myway.com), February 18, 2004.
Faith, Sorry, I won't be posting much this week. I have to prepare for a chess tourney this weekend, and I have to keep up with school and UIL. Till then, God Bless!
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net ), February 18, 2004.
That's okay David. I hope you have a great week... I don't really think there is a satisfying answer to my question anyway. My friend Brian didn't have one.., and I keep coming back to the same request--show me a verse where Paul, or anyone in the Scriptures--says that we cannot turn from our sinful selves without God first causing us to do so.
I guess if it were that simple--we wouldn't have so many different denominations religions and theology in the first place.
-- (faith01@myway.com), February 18, 2004.
Some people have to be forced, Faith because they serve God's purpose. Others, will probably ever get that chance. -Abraham is told to that he will destroy Sodom and Omorra (not Gomorrah, no G in original). Lot is taken out.
-God appears to Moses in the wilderness to convince to bring the Israelites out of Egypt.
-Joseph is sold as a slave. In Egypt he becomes a powerful man.
-Samson. Samuel, David, Saul, are chosen for a purpose.
-David is warned about the adultery and murder he committed.
-Solomon learns he has forgotten God, so God will divide his kingdom.
-Ahab is told he has cosen another God,responsible for the death of another man, so he will die in battle.
-Jeremiah is told not to marry.
-Hosea to marry a prostitute.
-John the Baptist is forced into the desert.
-Jesus has to fulfill his mission by dying in the cross.
-Peter is told about his denial of Jesus
-Paul is thrown down from the horse. ....
So turning from evil into the right way, many times is done by God Yahweh.
The Christian Yahwist/The Man of Yahweh
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 18, 2004.
Faith, I don't believe you'll find what you are looking for, in that sense. God doesn't cause us to turn from sin. It is a choice we have. Calvinists wouldn't agree here, believing that once God chooses you, you have no room to argue. You don't find God causing our repentence, though you could say , "it is because of God that I turn from sin." God gives you us the strength when we decide to let him strengthen you. Otherwise we would all be slaves. Elpidio, I agree that our mistakes/sins can be used by God to do good. I don't believe that our disobedience somehow derails God's eternal plan. DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that we should go cause as much pain and hurt as we can to provide God an opportunity to do miracles. Somehow I felt the need to place this on this forum.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 18, 2004.
dear Faith, You are welcome, and I agree with yourself and with Luke that nowhere does God in Scripture say that He controls a man's repentance. On the contrary, there are verses that clearly indicate that acceptance or rejection of God (Christ) belongs to man.
"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." John 5:40
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:14
The argument that God has to cause man to seek Him and please Him is flawed, as I see it, for the Word of God says repentance is a command to 'all' men 'everywhere'. It also makes clear that God exacts vengeance on all that do not know Him.
"but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" Acts 17:30
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2Thess. 1:8
For God to be just He cannot give a command to all men everywhere, knowing only those He chooses will ever keep it and then exacting 'vengeance' on the rest for not doing so.
God Bless you...
-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), Feburary 19, 2004.
hm...I'm getting better at this the more I do it.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2004.