To Faith - Calvinism

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread

Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

Gail...I don't know much about the Southern Baptists or this movement you posted about. If they believe anything Calvinistic.., then they are not for me.

My church is purely biblical and we are not Southern Baptist.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2004.

Would you please explain what you have against Calvinists'?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2004

Answers

I guess the bottom line is that I don't believe that God has elected *particular * people to be saved. This understanding denies man's free-will....and contradicts God's own words which state, "whosoever will believe., has eternal life." I also reject the idea of predestination. Foreknowledge and predestination are different things.

I think Calvin spoke much about God's justice and mercy., but little about his love. Calvin limited God's mercy and love to the elect. I mean, how could it be said that God is loving and merciful towards those that he presumably predestined to eternal torment?

I simply believe that Calvin perverted God's meaning in predestination...and I find him to be very much "Augustinian" in many ways.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2004.


Faith, read Eph. 1 and Romans 8 & 9.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.


Ephesians 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.


I am familiar with why Calvin teachings see it the way I guess that you do too? Are you in a Calvinistic Church?

Ya see, David...I can't ignore the clear Scriptures that teach that it is God's will that *all* come to a saving faith in Christ and that we are all chosen from before he creation of the world. The question is.., will we choose Him?

The way I understand it, God, in His foreknowledge *knew* which of us will choose Him. Surely the blessings specified are the inheritance the heavenly Father has planned from eternity past for those who would become His children through faith in Jesus Christ.

The fact is that predestination and foreknowledge always pertains to some blessing or favor. It never has anything to do with salvation. It would seem that God., in His foreknowledge, knowing who would accept the gospel and receive His Son, has predetermined something unique for them.

Foreknowledge means to know in advance, not to determine something in advance. I think that foreknowledge as knowing something in advance does not deny free-will--whereas, foreknowledge, as understood by Calvin..does deny free-will.

How can someone choose Christ and accept the gospel if he has been pre-ordained not to be able to?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2004.


Predestination is God's thing, not man's. So, man has no business dabbling in things that are unkown to him or are out of his power to deal with. Predestination is pretty much a moot issue for man. So, why even bother with it in a theological or doctrinal context? We shouldn't. Unless, we are trying to control people with "Predestination" let's all become Calvinists.

..................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2004.


Faith, you and I agree on something . . . finally!!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2004.


Yea!! I knew we could, Gail...and we do agree on some important issues like the Trinity.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2004.


I am disapointed, David--that you haven't responded to me.

Are you mad at me?

We could have some pretty good theological debate.

What do you think of Dave Hunt?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2004.


No I'm not mad Faith. I've just been at church and a party for my little cousin.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.


Faith,

I still like Dave Hunt, even though I found out he thinks all "Calvinist" are hellbound. I already pre-ordered my debate book by Him and James R. White. It's called "Debating Calvinism". Can't wait to read it. You should get it too, or when it comes out i'll be happy to scan you some pages to see if you'd be interested in buying it.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.


Well., I was going to reccommend a book titled "What Love is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God" By Dave Hunt.

I never really knew much about Calvinism and never really needed to know anything--when I fell upon this book by chance. I only read it because I find Dave Hunt to be an excellent theologian and man of the Word. He is so dedicated to God and he is fair-minded.

His most basic point is that Calvinism doesn't necessarily do justice to Calvin himself--and that Calvin really never left-behind his Catholicism.

I find the book amazing.

I even learned that the Latin Vulgate--repleat with all its errors, is the reason that the Geneva translation and the KJV translation are so full of error as well.

But yes, anyway...I would be interested in what you learn.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2004.


I've never read that book, and from what I hear it misrepresents Calvinism.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.


You need to hear the other side too Faith, I'd recommend this new book or The Potters Freedom by James White

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004


And the KJV is not "full of error". Is wasn't even translated by the Vulgate. It was translated from Greek and Hebrew.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.


"Fox have holes...", yes I love that one.

............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 18, 2004.


what is that rod?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.


hehe, Faith. do you believe spurgeon denied limited atonement?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.


Rod, whats up with this?

"Posted earlier somewhere else: That imperfection does not indicate God, but man. Or, even more directly Satan. But, I think that all of this imperfection is the flip side to Free Will. God cannot be good unless He does good things. Those good things open the door to evil if we choose not to obey or learn from God's will. So, it is really man's own weakness that evil is in the world. [A poster] may chant "Sin Nature" and man's inability to choose God. I think that man has every open door and may choose which door he thinks is for him at the risk of rejecting God. Free Will can be the purist form of obedience because it is a conscious choice to accept Christ.

...........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 18, 2004.


So now I am just "a poster".?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.


I didn't want to mention your name over there without your permission, so I played it safe. Besides, "Sin Nature" comments can be made by just about anyone.

...............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2004.


Hi David...

To be honest--I know little about the inner-workings or people behind the scene in Calvinism.

Dave Hunt mentions Spurgeon, and I recall him saying that Spurgeon had a hard time agreeing with his religion, and that it wasn't a spoken thing--but is revealed in his own writings. I don't really know.

I wasn't reading the book out of any particular need to debate Calvinism. I was just curious.

I find that Dave Hunt is quite convincing though. His points about predestination and foreknowledge not meaning what Calvinism teaches, were convincing to me because I have the Word of God in which to see if *special election* is really taught, or if God has damned certain people to hell and nothing they could do would matter because God has pre-ordained them not to be able to believe. I think that that denies free-will, which I believe we all have.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2004.


Faith,

Whether you know it or not, you are a Calvinist, because you believe in the "Once Saved Always Saved" (OSAS) doctrine which is one of the false doctrines of Calvinisn - "Perseverance of the Saints".

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 19, 2004.


Kevin,

Dave Hunt believes in Eternal Security but he opposes Calvinism.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 19, 2004.


David,

How can he believe in "eternal security" and yet oppose Calvinism when this doctrine "eternal security" is one of the five doctrines of Calvinism???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 19, 2004.


I don't know Kevin, beats me. Maybe Faith can tell us, she owns the book "What Love Is This" by Dave Hunt. Maybe he mentions it there.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 19, 2004.


Oh, okay.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 19, 2004.


Faith, you still haven't answered me. Do you believe spurgeon denied limited atonement?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 19, 2004.


David.., I thought I did answer you. I said that I don't know Spurgeon. I know nothing about him--really.

And the reason I believe that we can't loose our salvation is because that is what the Bible reveals... I don't think that everything about Calvinism is wrong. But Calvinism gets this revelation correctly from the Scriptures.

I am having computer problems--still don't have mine back...so my time is limited. Sorry for taking so long to come back and check the board.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 20, 2004.


According to Professor Brad S. Gregory, Stanford U.,

In Calvin's mind: Predestination is meant to remove entirely any anxiety about one's status in God's eyes. A denial of predestination is an affront to God's sovereignty as it reflects the human desire to create a reasonable God in man's image.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 23, 2004.


hm...testing... ok I think I about got it right

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2004.

can't seem to get the line in the center right.....oh well.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2004.

"I think that that denies free-will, which I believe we all have"

Faith, we can only do what our nature allows us to do. Our freewill chooses to hate God, and sin.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2004.


but it is not our 'nature' that 'chooses' God. It is our heart that believes and receives Him. The sinful flesh is dead to sin and God, and the mind of an unbeliever is 'blinded' by Satan against the truth, which is why God speaks to the 'heart' of a man and it is the heart that responds. God says - "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your 'heart'." "For with the 'heart' man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our 'hearts', to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

-- Gillian... (Gilliantwin@msn.com), March 08, 2004.


Perfect response Gillian...

The Bible does not teach that we are unable to respond to God unless God first causes us to do so., as is taught in Calvinism. Our depravity has to do with the flesh., and our inability to keep the Law. God was revealing to us our need for Jesus Christ., and Paul concurs that we art unable to save ourselves because of the sinful nature/flesh....

Abraham is proof that man could choose good things while under the Law., or as it is more commonly understood--in the sin nature. Paul never said that we cannot choose to do good unless God first caused us to believe in Jesus Christ.

It is a simple choice between following the sinful desires of the flesh--which we are all victims of, or following the desires of our heart.

Abraham did it--Moses did it.., Noah did it...who else??

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2004.



"Our freewill chooses to hate God, and sin. "

Huh?

Can you make some kind of proof for that, David?

...........................................

-- rod (elrleyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2004.


rod,

I could. But you don't care. You have shown that you do not like testing your traditions to the Word of God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 08, 2004.


My Traditions?? Or, do you mean those Traditions that make up the Bible?

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2004.


I agree Faith,

We still have that old sinful 'nature' even once we are saved. The Bible teaches that it is not changeable or improveable, which is why we are to reckon it dead, because it is 'crucified' with Christ. Regeneration is purely spiritual. When a sinner believes and receives Christ as his Saviour, the spirit of man that died with Adam is made alive again and placed 'in Christ'. Hence He is 'in' us and we are 'in' Him, and we live by the Spirit of God. God knew what He was doing going straight to the 'heart' of the issue and not the flesh or spirit.

God Bless...

-- Gillian (Gilliantwin@msn.com), March 09, 2004.


The problem with all these western interpretation of the Bible is reflective of the imperialistic political agenda that they have sadistically enjoyed over the many years, carried over into Church, Mission and ministerial methods bringing forth another Gospel other than that which has been set forth in the Book of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Devoiding the Book of its Jewishness results in OSAS theories, which can easily be refuted in an eastern set up where cultural waves are more akin to the waters of the Jewish Midrash. Predestination as per Ephesians is not a very complex matter, which need to be so desperately guarded or so vehemently abused for the propagation of the OSAS proponents. The matter although not complex is definitely very deep, and that is where my western brothers have not learnt to dive into.

My wife and myself love each other. This is very non-complex statement, but definitely a very deep proclamation upon which our marriage and family soars. Predestination is a non-complex issue but rather deep for discussion and assumptions. For example, I purchase a car for the chief purpose of driving it. If I rather keep it locked in the garage and take routine peeks at it, will my purpose be fulfilled? Similarly God has predestined us unto adoption of children by Christ Jesus to Himself, does not make much sense if we do not show forth the glory of the Father by obedient following. Yes, God has decided to adopt us from time eternal in Christ Jesus. However, just as we get adopted through Christ we are to fulfill the purpose of that adoption, and that is to obey our Father who has adopted us. If we are willingly disobedient then we are not fulfilling the eternal purpose of God in having predestined us. Predestination is not predetermination with dictatorship.

Western society has lost touch with humanity, and has become too industrialized and therefore the simplicity of the Word does not appeal to them any more. You can decide to employ a teacher to teach your son, but if the teacher decides not to teach the son do you keep him any longer. You decide to cultivate a land to grow rice, but if the land does not yield any harvest, do you still call it your cultivable land? Yes the land legally belongs to you, but does it actually belong to you? There is always a purpose to a creation or a birth. However, if that purpose is not fulfilled does the created and the born make any sense to the Creator of the life-giver? What good is the forgiveness of Christ on the Cross of Calvary if we continue sinning? What good would the forgiveness of Jesus be to the adulterous woman who was about to be stoned by the Jews, if Jesus would just say to her, ‘As none have condemned you, neither do I condemn you.’. If He would not have said, ‘Go and sin no more’ then would the grace of Christ have any value to the woman? No.

Therefore stop mincing words and sounding right. Fear God and Live. The only way to march into the kingdom of God is on your knees, and the beat is to be the tremble and the fearful shaking of our souls before an all-powerful God. When we loose this we have the OSAS smugness hitting the Church.

-- Dilip Shlomo Dutt (crusade@vsnl.com), June 11, 2004.



Moderation questions? read the FAQ