What is the deal with the "big c" Church?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread
The reason I decided to post here was because of a glitch on your site's behalf for sending me responses to a post i made long ago, which had some really ridiculous, and also some good responses in it. Note: usually i care about grammer, capitolization, and spelling, but i didn't this case, so don't be insulted if i didn't capitolize certain words.
Why do Christians argue about denominations? Isn't the goal to lead as many to Christ as possible, and supply the babes with the sufficient milk of God's word? and not fill them with ungodly doctrines?
What i've learned about Sola Scriptura: It's not correct. HOWEVER, the scriptures are SUFFICIENT, and more than we could ever ask for. We will be judged by the commandments of the Bible, not by traditions of any denomination.
Where does it ever say in the Bible about traditions breaking up evil into pieces. As far as i can tell, the word tradition has cause more controversy than i can ever comprehend. So is, what you Catholics call, the "big t" tradition beneficial? i don't think it is. So throw away what is not beneficial and focus on that which is.
in response to the "divisions" of the big C Church. Most of those divisions are a result of bad calls, judgements, whatever, of the catholic church. Look at all the bologna that happened during the middle ages. The reason there are such things as Baptists, Presbyterians, etc, is because of the Reformation. Because Christians wanted to reform the ungodly teachings of the Catholic Church. Give em a break. Can't you look at other Christians with love, and call them brothers and sisters?
Honestly, as i've been reading the Holy Word of God, the idea of the church that i got, from reading it, not commentaries, and not relying on my "intuition" as someone called it. I understand this: The Church is the body of believers. And that it grows through evangalism. No single human is a leader. Christ is the head of the church. Discipleship is the core of Christianity. Charity, meaning you before me. Personal relationships, exalting one another, and lovingly correcting one another, and if necessary, cutting off. That is what the Church should be.
this is what i experienced within the catholic church. this is what most people experience. spiritual emptines, and philosophies of man.
There was never a HINT of evangalism, the priest, whom we're supposed to call "father." discipleship, "WHAT IS THAT?" Reading the Bible? "thats only for those folks that wanna show off at church and be know it alls, besides, i don't need to read the bible cus the priest tells me everything i need to know." praying, confessing? "i better pray to this image of God, or confess through the priest"
Mr 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. Mr 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. Mr 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part. Mr 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. Mr 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Ga 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the TRUTH?
the big c Church is not the Catholic Church as most of you claim.
-- marcin of chicago (email@example.com), March 06, 2004
A point i should have cemented was: the sufficiency of the Word. Why do Catholics always seek what some Vatican council said, or what the pope said on abortion, or contraception, or whatever. WHO CARES??? the WORD IS SUFFICIENT, if only you read it you'd find all the answers. instead of relying on the word of man that's supposedly God's revalation. give me a break
-- marcin of chicago (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 06, 2004.
Sure, Marcin, we all get a copy of the Bible, create our own dogmas based on our own "revealed truth", and then go about gathering disciples unto ourselves! Hey, what a novel idea!! Problem is, though, that experiment has already been tried. We've seen 600 years of it, thus far, and all it leads to is DIVISION.
"What is Christ divided?" says St. Paul. Ahhh, but doesn't the devil love it.
-- Gail (email@example.com), March 06, 2004.
If you simply go through the "catagoized" threads I'm sure you will find all the answers you are in search of. All of your questions and suppositions have been anwered many times and in many different ways. Its all here, just have a look around. The tone of your post suggests that what ever you read about Catholicism will be discarded unless it agrees with your current bias. Search the site and see if I'm wrong.
-- JimFurst (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 06, 2004.
Your answer is a result for the lack of understanding what discipleship is. Discipleship: servant leadership, wash the feet of your disciples. You think it's some cult doctrine. No, its not, its the core of christianity if done biblically. Making disciples does not mean making followers. it means making christian, followers of christ through a personal relationship with that person. but its hard to grasp that idea because its never been presented in the catholic church.
Mt 23:12 And whosoever shall EXALT himself shall be abased; and he that shall HUMBLE himself shall be EXALTed.
can i ever post something without being personally attacked?
Ga 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the TRUTH?
-- marcin of chicago (email@example.com), March 06, 2004.
Haha! ''Because I tell you the TRUTH?'' That takes the cake. Disciples are those who sit at the feet of a Master. Basically, students of a teacher. The Master is Jesus Christ. He was not learning from dudes like you and other heretics. He was the Master, and His own disciples learned everything from Him. They in turn went out and made disciples of all nations (Matt 29:19) by Christ's authority. They learned from Jesus, passed on Jesus' revealed truth, and made successors to do this after they died.
The Catholic Church is taught by these successors, starting with the holy apostles. Only the Catholic Church can send disciples of Jesus to teach the world. YOU do NOT teach yourselves by reading Bibles. Phony disciples end up with false doctrine. (NOW:) Did this seem like a personal attack on you? It isn't; it's just the facts.
-- eugene c. chavez (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 06, 2004.
Marcin said: What i've learned about Sola Scriptura: It's not correct. HOWEVER, the scriptures are SUFFICIENT, and more than we could ever ask for. We will be judged by the commandments of the Bible, not by traditions of any denomination.
Marcin, what do you mean when you say that Sola Scriptura is not correct, but that the Scriptures are sufficient? Are you referring to the authority of the Christian Church? The principle of Sola Scriptura says that Scriputure alone is the authority for the Church. Are you denying this principle? I am just trying to understand what you're affirming and denying.
Secondly, you said: Your answer is a result for the lack of understanding what discipleship is. Discipleship: servant leadership, wash the feet of your disciples. You think it's some cult doctrine. No, its not, its the core of christianity if done biblically. Making disciples does not mean making followers. it means making christian, followers of christ through a personal relationship with that person. but its hard to grasp that idea because its never been presented in the catholic church.
I agree that discipleship is necessary, but not the kind to which you are referring. Jesus himself made disciples, and they were his followers. At the point when he left and they began to teach, their names changed to "apostles." I also agree with the principle of servant leadership.
I think I know to what you are referring when you speak of this type of "discipleship." Your proposal for discipleship seems to say that we should convert people to Christianity, but not to any particular denomination. This is a common teaching among Protestants, and I suspect that Gail has heard of it before since she is a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism. I too am still officially Protestant. I do not know about Jim's background, but that is beside the point.
The Catholic Church teaches that teachers and leaders in the Church should teach the TRUTH. Now, if the truth is that Jesus wanted His Church to be one (John 17), and He established that Church (Matthew 16), then why would any Christians teach anything different from that? Jesus wanted one Church, and he wanted people to know all truth (John 16:13). For that reason, he sent the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles and their successors into all truth (John 16:13), so that by their witness of being one, others would come to believe (John 17).
From your theory of converting people to Christianity but not to a denomination, does that mean if the person falls into the trap of cult groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc (there are many other cults, some of whom do not deny Jesus' deity), you will not try to rescue them out from the deception?
If you will, how can you support a bias against some "denominations" but not others. What classifies a group as a true Protestant "denomination" as opposed to a fringe movement or cult? I suspect your answer will be whether they follow the teachings of Scripture and their doctrines line up with that. But which teachings of Scripture?
Will you rule out all churches in which women do not wear head coverings because of 1 Cor 11? What about all churches who do not require that members observe the Sabbath, despite the fact that it is one of the 10 commandments? Will you deny that someone is a Christian if they disobey their parents (due to Rom. 1:30)? Will you deny the legitimacy of those who claim that baptism is a necessary work that you must do for salvation (there are Baptists who believe this) based on Acts 2:38? I could go on and on...
God bless and guide you (and all of us) into His Truth,
-- Emily (email@example.com), March 06, 2004.
You are right in your supposition that we share much in common with our fellow Christian brethren. The Holy Father himself has said as much. We are all in the fight together.
We all seek the Truth and the key is how you find it. You can privately read the Bible like some do. You could rely on many of the evangelical ministers to guide your interpretations like the majority of evangelicals (if they are honest they will tell you) do. The other option is to see what the collected wisdom of the Church that Christ created has to say. She was founded by Him (God is indeed merciful) so that we don't have to stumble about blindly.
An Episcopal Bishop and a majority of his collegues say the Bible seems to say Gay is OK. Are they right? Evangelicals say that the Bible tells of a "rapture" where 114,000 of the faithful will be removed from earth before Armageddon. Jehovah's witnesses claim the Bible tells them not to take blood products. Why the chaos?
Personal interpretation leads to absolute anarchy as we see in the 1000s of denominations that exist. If you don't like Hell just get rid of it. If Purgatory turns you off no problem it doesnt exist for protestants. Don't even think about in vitro fertilization or contraception. Only the catholic faith has a stance on these modern issues. The other faiths tend to embrace every modern convenience as a good thing or have no stance at all.
A wise man once said " Europe knows God and has rejected Him, America knows God and wants to change Him."
For the sola scriptura slant you need to answer these words from the Gospels:
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
John 14 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 16 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John 20 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."
So we have Christ Himself making Peter His earthly successor. He empowers him with the Holy Spirit and the ability to forgive sins. He also adds that Hell will not prevail against the Church. Sounds like the Catholic Church is THE Church to me. She existed for 1500 years. She made mistakes and has had scandals to be sure, but Her leadership that was given the power of the Holy Spirit cannot err on matters of Faith and Morals (because Christ says so).
Until April 11th I am an Episcopalian. I cannot wait to take my first Eucharist in the Church. I have no doubt that She is the Church founded and defended by God Himself.
-- David F (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 06, 2004.
Making disciples does not mean making followers. it means making christian, followers of christ through a personal relationship with that person. but its hard to grasp that idea because its never been presented in the catholic church.
Really? Are you sure about that? I bet the monks that I have been studying would have wondered what you were saying since they did exactly that. Had a personal relationship with the person and led them to become better Christians and better monks.
Marcin, you just have sola scriptura without the latin name. But deep down you are saying in exact same things. Pity, your ignorance has even blinded you from that.
-- Scott (email@example.com), March 06, 2004.
Everyone is being very diplomatic towards you. However I have concluded that you talk bollocks!
You've read the bible...clearly, where in it does it say that Christ left it. The church preceded the bible. This Sola Scripture nonsense really is a modernist lie.
Look at the evidence, after over 1000 years of split, the Orthodox and the Catholics still have practically the same beliefs!
If you are not going to be Catholic, then go and be Orthodox. You have no authority to interpret the book written by them and then use it to establish your own church.
Think about this PLEASE. It is the truth.
-- Hugh (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 09, 2004.