I need your help with a question. A Protestant friend of mine (Calvinist) asked me what I think about the idea of total depravity, as it is evidenced in Scripture under the Calvinist interpretation. The Calvinist belief is that man is so deep in sin (sick, dead in their sin) that they are unable to reach out to God for salvation. Thus, salvation is completely a gift from God. Faith and Repentance are both gifts from God and come nothing from our own merit, simply because we are not able to do them, being so corrupt as humans. A related belief to this is that the whole world is not thus Christian because God "elected" or "chose" only certain people for heaven/salvation.

1. What is the Catholic answer to this? Is man capable of doing some amount of good, enough that it takes to reach out to God? Please provide Scriptural support for your answer as much as possible. Official Church teaching from the Catechism would also be helpful, but Scripture is better, as she does not see the CCC as authoritative.

2. She gave me a number of passages that appear to support her belief. How do Catholics explain the passages below (in KJV), if not in the Calvinist sense of saying that man is completely depraved and unable to reach out to God? (Note especially the bolded and underlined portions and the comment I make below each passage).

Psalm 14:1-5
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

It says here that no one understands, seeks God, or calls upon the Lord. Thus, in the Calvinist view, no one seeks out God on their own. It is only through God's grace of reaching out to us that we have any hope at all. No one is able to reach out to God for salvation.

Psalm 53:1-4
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

It says that no one does good, and seeking God is something good. So how can people seek God on their own? Thus, the Calvinists believe that people (in their sinful, corrupt state) do not and cannot seek God, but God seeks them.

Psalm 58:1-3
Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth. The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

If we work wickedness in our hearts, how can we seek God? From birth we are corrupt and sinful.

Isaiah 48:4-8
Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them. Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

How can we seek God if we are obstinate and our ears are not opened to His call?

Rom 3:9-18
...for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Above we see that no one understands or seeks God. Also no one does good, including the good that is seeking God.

Thanks for you help and answers to my questions. God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 15, 2004

Answers

bump

-- bump (bump@bump.bump), February 15, 2004.

Your Calvinist friend failed to compair those general statments with other specific statements from the Old Testament, such as about Noah, who was a just man who found favor with the Lord....yet after the fall! Or Lot who also was spared...or Moses, or Abraham...or John the Baptist - who was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb!

I find it highly revealing that those who claim sola scritura as their theological guide don't seem to know their scripture as well as they might. But this is because they fail to realize that Catholics have studied the scripture longer and with greater devotion: no line in scripture can contradict another if taken in context.

Thus we read some Protestants claiming Jesus had siblings because "they asked one another, is this not the son of Joseph?" But Christians who knew the Gospel knew the answer was 'NO'! jOSEPH wasn't Jesus' biological father (though he acted as father), and hence neither were those others his biological siblings...it seems the protestants failed to account for the source of that line (the crowd).

Calvin believed in total depravity... a word not found in the scripture by the way, as a way to differentiate himself from Catholic teaching that holds that man's will and mind were not totally corrupted (else how could Paul later hold pagans accountable to the "law on their hearts" in Romans? If their minds were totally depraved, and if their hearts totally corrupt, then how could they be morally responsible for sin?

That's a colossal blunder of thought Calvin fell into (who by the way, wasn't as brilliant a scholar of philosophy or theology as he claimed to be).

I've read Calvin's work... it's funny...he presumes teaching authority without anywhere proving to have such authority. Yet we are still taking HIS word for things pertaining to salvation?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), February 15, 2004.

Joe said: compair those general statments with other specific statements from the Old Testament, such as about Noah, who was a just man who found favor with the Lord....yet after the fall! Or Lot who also was spared...or Moses, or Abraham...

She addressed these by saying that God created Adam & Eve perfectly able to choose good or evil, and when they sinned we are now all corrupted. She would simply argue that the above people you mentioned were selected by God, not that they chose God on their own.

Joe said: or John the Baptist - who was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb!

I suspect the response would be something along that lines of "simply because he was chosen to bring God's message (thus filled with HS) does not mean he was without sin or corruption. It just means God chose him and redeemed him."

Joe said: I find it highly revealing that those who claim sola scritura as their theological guide don't seem to know their scripture as well as they might. But this is because they fail to realize that Catholics have studied the scripture longer and with greater devotion: no line in scripture can contradict another if taken in context.

She knows Scripture very well, more than most people I know. She is almost like a walking concordance. Who is making the assumptions here, you or her? She also believes that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

Joe said Calvin believed in total depravity... a word not found in the scripture by the way,

Whether the phrase is mentioned in Scripture is irrelevant. She provided proof texts (that I listed in the original post) for the idea behind the doctrine, so please address that.

Joe said: Catholic teaching that holds that man's will and mind were not totally corrupted

Do you have any Scripture verses that teach this?

Joe said: else how could Paul later hold pagans accountable to the "law on their hearts" in Romans? If their minds were totally depraved, and if their hearts totally corrupt, then how could they be morally responsible for sin?

She would say that it goes back to the fall when Adam & Eve chose sin. They chose it for the whole human race, and we inherit it through original sin. Just because God told them what was right, doesn't mean they will listen. They hardened their hearts.

I am pretty familiar with Calvinist teachings, as I have been exposed to it a lot, so I am trying to answer the points raised from a Calvinist perspective, although I don't necessarily agree with the argument. Any more input would be appreciated, especially addressing the verses in my original post.

Thanks and God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 15, 2004.

'Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.' [Catechsim of the Catholic Church #405]

'Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.' [Genesis 6:9, NIV]

'Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man...' [Matthew 1:19, NIV]

-- John Miskell (RomanRite@aol.com), February 15, 2004.

Emily, For your benefit (since you are called to become a Catholic nun), in case you don't know, and for the benefit of others, I just thought it pertinent to reveal the wolf in sheep's clothing

-- faith01 is answering your question NOT from a Catholic perspective but from her own protestor's brew of man-made denominationalism.

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 16, 2004.

Salvation for only a few selected ones?

That's not what my Bible says:

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2)

If GOD WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED who are we to put limits to God's will?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), February 16, 2004.

Emily,

James Akin has a good intro to Calvinism and the TULIP at http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm. It's a good intro to Calvinism and specifically where it goes wrong (including it's definition of Total Depravity). The other Protestant view contrary to Calvinism is Arminianism. This might be the view Faith is explaining. Correct me if I'm wrong Faith. Both views have some truth in them. Mr. Akin offers some Bible verses to consider. He also has good writings on justification and sanctification that might be useful. Let me know if you need those links.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 16, 2004.

Faith said: Otherwise- -what is the purpose of preaching. If it is already predermined who is going to heaven--why bother with the preaching?

Calvinists won't let you off that easily explaining them away. I've tried this argument before. They say that preaching, evangelism, sharing the gospel, etc. are necessary because:

1. Commanded by Jesus (eg. Great Commission)

2. These may be God's intended method to use to reach the people who are His elect. If you don't follow God's commands in spreading the gospel, perhaps you really aren't saved after all, since you aren't doing what God wills for you to do. Also, Paul wrote about wherever Christ is preached, it will not go out void.

They would say that such actions should be a result of your faith, and if your fruits of the Spirit and salvation are absent, you really must have no faith at all. This is admittedly better than saying that someone who has faith but has no deeds can still be saved, since that would oppose James 2 (esp. v. 20, 22, 24, 26 which essentially say faith without deeds is dead, so faith requires deeds to back it up).

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 16, 2004.

To Everyone: Thanks for all your help with my questions, and I would love any more responses, especially Bible verses that oppose this Calvinist view of total depravity.

Faith, your Bible verses and thoughts were especially helpful.

Jimmy, just because Faith is a Protestant does not negate her ability to have insightful thoughts. I saw nothing wrong with what she said. As for becoming a nun, I believe that is my calling, and Lord-willing it will come about. But there is more to be revealed with each new day, and God may lead me somewhere else. It's in the Lord's hands, and it would not be right for me or anyone else to make any statements prematurely regarding this.

Andy, thanks for the great link! I read that entire site and it is very good. I think I will show my friend. Let me get this straight, just to make sure. This is my understanding of the Catholic points on the site to which you referred: Catholics can follow official Church teaching and believe in the doctrines of the Molinists (more similar to Arminians) or Thomists (more similar to Calvinists). They can believe either and not be in conflict with Church teaching. Is that true? That is quite fascinating on 2 levels. 1. How can both be true at the same time? 2. Amazing that the Catholic Church did not split over this despite the drastic differences in doctrine. This is a testimony to God preserving His church and the gates of hell not being able to prevail against it by disuniting it.

Thanks and God bless!

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 16, 2004.

Emily,

I agree with your understanding on what a Catholic believes regarding Thomism and Molinism. In a practical sense, belief in one or the other shouldn't change the important things like our faith or desire to do good out of faith and love for Christ. Both views seem to be speculation as to how God accomplishes salvation. I think the bottom line is: no one really knows whether me, you, or anyone else is predestined to get to heaven until we actually get there. So why should predestination change our actions? Who really knows whether someone is one of the elect or not? And if you get there because God predestined you to choose Him or whether you chose Him of your own accord, what does it matter?

I guess I don't see a problem with the understanding that we seek out God because of His grace, and not because of our own merits or good works. Having said that, I don't see that the quotes from Scripture your friend offered really prove that the other concludions of Calvinism are necessarily correct. To say that we are by nature sinful and that God's unmerited grace is what draws us to Him would be correct, I think. The problem comes in with the conclusion that God only wants certain people to respond to that grace or that He takes away our free will to respond to Him. Here are a few verses that I think show that God wants us to choose him freely.

Gen 3:22 "Then the LORD God said: 'See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.' " Here God tells us that man now knows what is good and what is bad. So we can sin because we know what is good and what is bad, but does this mean we must sin?

Gen 4:3-7 "In the course of time Cain brought an offering to the LORD from the fruit of the soil, while Abel, for his part, brought one of the best firstlings of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not. Cain greatly resented this and was crestfallen. So the LORD said to Cain: 'Why are you so resentful and crestfallen? If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master.' " Knowing what is good and what is bad, it seems to me that God is holding both Abel and Cain responsible for their actions. Abel chose the best firstling of his flock. Apparently, Cain did not give God the best offering he could have. If total depravity were true and man had no free will to choose good (i.e, respond positively to God's grace), then why did God tell Cain, "If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master.' "?

I guess, the Calvinists are right if they say we need God's grace to seek Him, but wrong if they say humans have no free will to reject that grace or respond to it.

There may be other examples in Scripture of humans choosing to respond to God's grace and God holding others responsible for not responding to that grace. A Calvinist may still make the point that God decided whther those individuals would respond to His grace or not. But to say that God wills certain people to reject Him is contrary to 1 Tim 2 and other verses that say that Christ died for all.

In John 8:34-38 "Jesus answered them, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. A slave does not remain in a household forever, but a son always remains. So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free. I know that you are descendants of Abraham. But you are trying to kill me, because my word has no room among you. I tell you what I have seen in the Father's presence; then do what you have heard from the Father.' "

If Calvinism is correct, then it should be correct if we apply it to Jesus' words. If my understanding of Calvinism is correct, then a Calvinist interpretation is, "Amen, amen, I say to you, everyone has been willed by the Father to commit sin and is a slave of sin. A slave does not remain in a household forever, but a son always remains. So if you are one of the elect, then you will truly be free. I know that you are descendants of Abraham. But you are trying to kill me, because my word has no room among you. I tell you what I have seen in the Father's presence; then those who have been chosen do what you have heard from the Father."

Does the meaning stay the same? In my view, it doesn't, but a Calvinist might disagree. Seems to me that Christ is offering salvation to all and allowing them to make the choice. I think Faith is correct when she said The question we need to ask though- -is "What is God's will?" .

Just my opinion.

God bless! By the way, you start up some great discussions Emily.

-- Andy (ASZMERE@EARTHLINK.NET), February 16, 2004.

Emily,

To a protestant, Faith might indeed be insightful; but to a Catholic, she (using the words of H W Crocker III) "stamps on the Eucharist, obliterates statues of the Virgin Mary, smashes crucifixes, takes hammers to break down altars, and shatters stained glass." IMO, that is at the very least, a lack of Catholic insight.

I suppose she's entitled to give her protestor's insight into Calvinism, another heresy.

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 16, 2004.

Emily,

About your call to be a nun ...

Voltaire acclaims ...

"There is not, on all the earth, anything to equal the sacrifice of beauty, youth, and often high birth, which the gentle sex offers gladly in order to solace, in the hospitals, the welter of human suffering.... The nations separated from the Roman faith have but imperfectly copied so noble a charity."

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 16, 2004.

trying something

-- e (e@e.com), February 17, 2004.

confirming to see if alerts deleted

-- e (e@e.com), February 17, 2004.

Faith,
If your ''insights'' were really biblical you would not reject the Holy Spirit.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 17, 2004.

Faith, it is a monstrous pretense to believe that you are enslaving yourself to the Holy Bible -- written, identified, and assembled by the Catholic Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- when you persecute the Catholic Church, the Author, with your calumnies and disrespectfulness.

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 17, 2004.

"My insights are biblical.., and at the least, not Roman".

A: And that's just the beginning of your problem! Note that your "biblical" "insights" are likewise not Anglican - or Episcopalian - or Presbyterian - or Calvinist - or Lutheran - or Baptist - or Methodist - or Pentecostal - and yet, each of these groups - and thousands of others - make EXACTLY the same claim you make - "MY INSIGHTS ARE BIBLICAL - AND NOT ROMAN". It seems that the ONLY thing their beliefs have in common is the fact that they differ from the original beliefs of Apostolic Christianity. Is that something to be proud of? Does the Bible contradict itself so often that thousands of conflicting, contradictory beliefs can all be "biblical"? If not, why would YOUR "insights" be any more valid or authoritative than the so-called "biblical" "insights" of any of these other denominational groups?? And please, don't claim that YOUR scriptural interpretations are guided by the Holy Spirit. They ALL make that same claim. Give me something that distinguishes you FROM all the others, and makes YOU right, and all of them wrong. There is only one Church which can provide such valid reasons for the truth of its doctrine - the Church Christ founded for all men - the one to which He personally said "the Holy Spirit will guide you to ALL TRUTH" - the Holy Catholic Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 17, 2004.

The Calvinist belief is that man is so deep in sin (sick, dead in their sin) that they are unable to reach out to God for salvation. Thus, salvation is completely a gift from God. Faith and Repentance are both gifts from God and come nothing from our own merit, simply because we are not able to do them, being so corrupt as humans.

I'm coming in a little late here, but I really don't understand this. What about the centurian in the New Testament, and every blind man and leper that Jesus healed because of their *faith*? Not that they were perfect, as we are all sinners, but that they had the *faith* to ask God to help them? I know nothing of Calvanism, but if it's predeterminist, what is the point of TRYING?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 17, 2004.

"From a Catholic perspective, Calvinism is blank walls, one book -- or actually two, the Bible and Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion -- and no fun; a religion in which Jesus turns water into castor oil rather than wine, tells parables about wedding wakes rather than wedding feasts, and instead of instructing the adulteress to go and sin no more, says, 'Well, we might as well stone her to death as she's predestined to go on sinning anyway.'"

"In his Institutes of the Christian Religion, Calvin cited Scripture to justify his conclusion that the 'Lord commands all those who are disobedient to their parents to be put to death' -- but judicially, only by a ruling from a council of elders, of course. The Catholic Church promised a sinner absolution through the sacrament of penance. The Calvinists looked to erase the sin by erasing the sinner."

"Calvin himself said that, for most people, it would have been better had they never been born, and more sensical that they 'mourned and wept at the birth of their relations, and solemnly rejoiced at their funerals.'"

"(The Calvinist's) faith was not to be found in a visible church, in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, or in apostolic priesthood. It was to be found in Calvin's gloss of Scripture. Outside of Calvin's invisible church of the predestined there was no salvation."

"Despite (religious art's) long history and its official confirmation by the (Catholic) Church after the iconoclastic wars, Calvin was as opposed as any modern ACLU lawyer to the public -- or, for that matter, private -- display of religious art, even of a crucifix, which, for him, was sheer idolatry, condemned in the Ten Commandments. To the Protestant, history -- the historical experience of the Church -- has no real meaning, because the Bible is the sole source of authority, though in more liberal denominations today, secular opinion has that role."

-- H W Crocker III

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 17, 2004.

Faith says "I'd much rather be a slave to God and His Word--than to any man-made religion on the face of this earth! My insights are biblical.., and at the least, not Roman."

What a lot of sanctimonious garbage. Faith, your statement is supremely INSULTING! As if to be Roman Catholic and a "Bible believer" is somehow mutually exclusive.

These are the kinds of statements you have made in previous threads that turn well-meaning debates into ad hominen attacks, and has not endeared you to the members of this forum.

Emily, you are a precious young lady, and at least Faith and I can agree on this: "you would make an excellent nun."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 17, 2004.

I don't usually agree with Faith's views, but in all fairness, I didn't see anything in her original posts to Emily that contradicted Catholic teaching on this subject. She even agrees that Calvin was in error. In this case, I'll go out on a limb and say that she even agrees with the "Roman" view of Calvinism.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 18, 2004.

Andy,

At the very beginning of this thread, Faith failed to announce herself as a protestor (or give any indication) who was giving a protestor's point of view to the question : Catholicism v. Calvinism. To the unwary forum reader & to those new to this Catholic forum, she would have been thought of as a Catholic. In other words, she slyly posed as a Catholic. (She's done many devious tactics in the past, surely this one was done on purpose, too.) IMO, that was a form of disrespect to the forum. If someone was giving you a million dollars, wouldn't you want to know if that person was a Catholic philanthropist or a Mafioso? I don't think you'd be comfortable in spending blood money.

Laurent always announces himself as a non-believer. Zarove always gives an indication that he is a protestant. They don't pose as Catholics (or try to).

But Faith is treacherous. She does NOT play fair as a guest.

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 18, 2004.

No, Faith.

You are guilty of lying about the Church.

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 18, 2004.

I think she was very clear and honest on this issue:

Faith said above "I am Protestant--but I am not a Calvinist. "

You probably just missed it.

Dano

-- Dan Garon (boethius61@yahoo.com), February 18, 2004.

Dano,

Faith announced that she's protestant AFTER my clarification and caution. Had I not done so, she would probably go on using "we" ambiguously (1. humankind, 2. Catholic), ipso facto, deceitfully.

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 18, 2004.

I'd like to take this moment to quote a song: "They will know we are Christians by our love."

Now a famous Bible passage: Galatians 5:22-23 (KJV) "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Now ask yourself, "Will they know by my example?"

God bless and may His peace & love prevail in this forum,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 18, 2004.

Thanks for the gentle reminder Emily. In all our theological discussions/debates it's good to be reminded to stay grounded in Christ's love. 1 Cor 13:1-7

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 18, 2004.

Also, ask yourself, "How did the Church deal with the Turks?"

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 18, 2004.

At the risk of inciting you to un-charity:
A song of vague direction is not what unites, it is really the Church that does it.

The Catholic Church is communion; what protestants have called ''fellowship''. Our Communion is more than solidarity and strength in faith. We are One in the truth; and the dissidents are outside truth, for the most part.

It was Our Lord said, ''Love one another as I have loved you,'' and He was speaking to the Church of His own apostles. The CHURCH is called to be loving, each member to the other. Others are not to be hated; we are to do good to them, and forgive them. We are to pray for them, and call them to conversion. Love will have its day; but we must love the Catholic faithful above the rest. Do not consider them our friends. Not if they come here to proselytize. Neither do we despise them nor love them in their error. Saint Paul called them anathema.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 18, 2004.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; ... For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans do so?" Matthew 5:43-44,46-47

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 18, 2004.

"I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel ///anti-Eucharist\\\. Which is not another: only there are some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ ///heretics\\\. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be ANATHEMA. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be ANATHEMA." St. Paul to the Galatians 1.6-9

"But there were also false prophets ///anti-Mary\\\ among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers ///iconoclasts\\\ who shall bring in sects of perdition ///man-made denominatinalism\\\ and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their riotousness, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of ///anti-Catholic\\\. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you ///televangeli$$$m\\\. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not: and their perdition slumbereth not." 2 St. Peter 2.1- 3

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 18, 2004.

Jimmy,

Just because people are "anathema" (cursed, condemned), this does not give us any reason or excuse to not show love to them.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 18, 2004.

Faith, you said "I'd much rather be a slave to God and His Word--than to any man-made religion on the face of this earth! My insights are biblical.., and at the least, not Roman."

I did not twist or contort your words. In fact, I quoted you verbatim. I merely said that I am insulted by your remark as I am sure are many other Catholics on this forum.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 18, 2004.

It could be argued that yours is the false gospel that Paul warned about.

A: Yes, it could - if Jesus lied when He told the first leaders of His Church "the Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth". Our Church has that divine promise. Your church doesn't. End of story. It's astounding that someone trapped in the doctrinal chaos of Protestantism would use the term "false gospel" relative to any Church outside that tradition of conflicting and contradictory beliefs.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 18, 2004.

Emily,

How do you propose to act when the infidel Turks are invading the Holy Roman Empire, massacring, raping, looting, destroying?

Faith, using yet another sly tactic from your magical bag of tricks, 'ey?

The words inside /// \\\ are my own COMMENTS. I would not dare add to Scripture.

Faith, in your case, you ARE the false gospel ///anti- Eucharist, anti-Mary, iconoclast, anti-Catholic\\\ that Paul warned the Catholics about.

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 18, 2004.

You are right in saying that the words of Christ applied to "all believers". However, the fact is all believers who were present at Pentecost, and all believers who lived before the 11th century were Catholic believers. The term "believers" meant believers in the fullness of Christian truth as given to the Apostles by Jesus Christ, NOT believers in thousands of manmade human traditions of partial truth, NOT believers in any old combination of Christian and non-Christian ideas that comes down the pike, NOT believers in denominational religion. Members of such unauthorized, semi-Christian religious traditions have no valid basis for claiming any promises which Christ made to His Church, and HIS Church alone.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 19, 2004.

During your next ''search of the scriptures,'' Faith; find a passage for us?

Where is it written the Church of the holy apostles, would be ''reformed'' someday? Did Jesus say, ''I am with you all days, even to the end of the world''-- or did He say, I am with you until the ''reformation''; and until then-- only then, you have the Holy Spirit to guide you in the whole truth?

When you find the ''Reformation'' in the Bible, show it to us, please.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 19, 2004.

Faith,

I don't think your request of Eugene is fair. Catholics don't subscribe to Sola Scriptura and don't claim that everything about Christ's Church is explicitly mentioned in Scripture. Even "Bible-believers" don't necessarily subscribe to that either. The Trinity is never explicitly mentioned in Scripture, though there is strong evidence of it in various passages.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 19, 2004.

Jimmy said: How do you propose to act when the infidel Turks are invading the Holy Roman Empire, massacring, raping, looting, destroying?

I believe there are causes and times for just war, and the situation you described may be one of them. But Faith did not do this, at least on this post. Before you accused her, she did nothing wrong in her original post to me, and posted what I saw to actually be in line with Catholic teaching. Someone else agreed with me above. I already knew that Faith was a Protestant from reading her posts, and she is just as open about it as some of the other Protestants on this board, from what I've seen. Just because there is evil in the world, does not excuse us from showing Christ's love to everyone. That love may be in the form of just war against evil for the good of society. But on this post, I saw no cause to attack her.

Faith said: The apostles clearly warned that there would be those who would preach another gospel. All I am pointing out is that Romanism is seen as that *other gospel* by people who chose not to continue to follow them.

So if Catholicism is the false gospel, which of the 32,000+ Protestant denominations possesses the true gospel? How can we know which ones are the 31,998 other imposters?

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 19, 2004.

oops...

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 19, 2004.

Hey, that's easy for Faith. She's in possession of the only true gospel, you see. Her version is the one we should all accept. NOT.

She cannot show any prophesy of Jesus telling His disciples that a ''reformation'' would become necessary someday. In fact, he said clearly; ''Go, therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them, etc.,'' and said it to the same apostles that started the Catholic Church. None other!

These would be BAPTISED believers, not a ''body of believers'' without visible organisation. DISCIPLES is a word meaning ''those who are TAUGHT, by a Master.

These believers had no BIBLE!

The Gospel would be, as the Church teaches, ''Repentence and remission of sins, preached in His name to all nations (Universally-- meaning CATHOLIC in scope) beginning from Jerusalem.'' (Luke 24:47.)

It was to BEGIN from Jerusalem; and from there be proclaimed to the world at its very CENTER, which was ROME. --All roads lead to Rome, was the ancient word. Saint Paul says ''To all God's beloevd who are in Rome . . . I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of YOU: (ROMANS) because your faith is proclaimed all over the world,'' (Rom 1:7-8). This was the diocese of Rome at the center of the world then, as it remains today. We are historically certain; and tradition shows us Peter was bishop of Rome before his martyrdom. A CATHOLIC and the first Pope.

Does Faith think the Church had already passed away in the days of the empire? Yes; she claims it had ended as the ''scriptural'' Church. How does she prove that?

She can't. She only denies the existence of Christ's Church in Rome; no matter what Paul the apostle thinks in Romans 1.

Her Bible won't show the word catholic. Catholic is Greek for Universal. Universal means all over the world. The Church in Rome was already proclaimed ''all over the world'' as Paul wrote. It was universally famous; Catholic.

Faith cannot show where Christ expected that to change in 1520 Germany or England in her so-called ''reformation movement.'' WHY? It's not in the scriptures. She fails.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 19, 2004.

Faith,

That begs the question as to how you know what you believe is true. If every Christian believer or denomination has a piece of the truth, but not the whole truth, how can we know what is true and what is not? Is this what Christ intended by his prayer in John Chapter 17?

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 19, 2004.

Faith also denies the Holy Spirit, ''I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to DWELL WITH YOU FOREVER'' (John 14:16).

That promise was NOT to ''free lance believers of whatever they PLEASE''. It was made to the holy apostles and to those, who through their word were to believe in Him (John 17:20). Which means the Catholic Church ONLY. Not heretics. Faith denies the power of the Holy Spirit to protect the Church from all error. He never existed, according to her.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 19, 2004.

Emily,

You were made for the convent. Your mistake is that you think this Catholic forum is a convent. I believe that this forum is a battlefield -- accessible to all the secularists, protestors, new agers, schismatics, etc., of cyberspace. I see Faith as an infidel Turk, a bloody one ... I've seen Faith massacring, raping, looting, and destroying the Catholic Church. The Most Blessed Sacrament and the Blessed Virgin Mary cringe at sound of her repulsive blasphemies. Don't you think that any conversation with wolf-in-sheep's-clothing- Faith is a just war? She made an attempt to deceive; I simply cried, "Wolf!"

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 19, 2004.

Faith, using yet another sly tactic from your magical bag of tricks, 'ey?

A protestor trying to split Catholics, 'ey?

This is the Truth: You are an Anti-Eucharist, Anti-Mary, Anti-Pope, Iconoclast, Anti-Catholic. Very sad.

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 19, 2004.

Faith: Who said, ''I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to DWELL WITH YOU FOREVER'' (John 14:16).

Faith denies the Holy Spirit, no way she can paper over it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 19, 2004.

Faith,

For 2,000 + years the Church has consistently preached that salvation is NOT by faith alone. Then the Reformation comes along and says that it is by faith alone in direct contrast to St. James and to HISTORY. So how can you say that we are the ones preaching "a different gospel"?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 19, 2004.

Faith said: I have the Holy Spirit in me--guiding me to all understanding and truth.., even if you don't agree.

The verse to which you refer is: John 16:13 (KJV) "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth"

However, here Jesus speaks to the apostles, or leaders of the Church. But you claim it for yourself.

Faith said: I don't believe that any one religion or denomination has all the truth in a perfect way. I can see a lot of truth in many though.

But above you claimed that the Holy Spirit leads you into truth. If you are going according to the words of Jesus in the passage, you should have all truth. But you yourself say that you do not. Your are contradicting yourself.

God bless and guide you into the truth,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 19, 2004.

"Actually--that is not the verse I am thinking of."

Typical.

"The true church of Jesus Christ is spiritual. Yes there is a physical reality in that we are His Body.., and He is in us...But not until Christ returns will He establish us as His Kingdom on earth..."

As far as I know, His Kingdom was already established on earth 2000 years ago when the Cross was planted on Calvary. His Church -- His Kingdom -- has been REIGNING and GROWING for 2000 years.

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 19, 2004.

Hi Faith,

No., what I said is that no one institution or religion has the truth. The truth is not trapped in any earthly institution.

I don't think any member of a denomination would describe their religion as an "earthly" institution. All Christian religions I know of base their beliefs on Christ and what they see as Christ's church including their interpretation of Scripture. How is that different than you deciding what is the truth based on your reading of Scripture and what you discern as the Spirit's guidance?

The Holy Spirit has come to me through God's Word...and that is where the truth is.

How do you discern whether you are being guided by the Spirit or not? We all agree that Scripture being God's Word, is infallible, but a big problem occurs when interpretations contradict each other. It seems to me you may be setting yourself up as your own authority since you discern for yourself whether the Spirit is guiding you or not in your interpretation of Scripture. I believe that the Spirit can and does guide all of us, but there are times when we can be fooled that something is of the Spirit when it is from ourselves or something more sinister. How do you "test the spirits" without some authority outside yourself?

I look at how there are many different beliefs on abortion and artificial contraception among "Bible-believers" and it seems to me that having as your ultimate authority your own personal ability to discern the truth makes it easy to be led astray. How many "Bible- believers" use abortificents because they believe that Scripture is silent on the matter? How can everyone being led by the Spirit come to different conclusions about something so important? That's why Christ gave us the Holy Spirit in the Church so we will not be led astray. In fact, many Catholics make the same mistake. Our conscience should be our guide, but many forget that we need a well formed conscience that is open to the Spirit. I have many friends who use their atrophied conscience as an excuse to go against Church teaching, especially when it comes to artificial contraception.

The true church of Jesus Christ is spiritual. Yes there is a physical reality in that we are His Body.., and He is in us

This statement in itself has a lot of truth in it. But the piece I think is missing is that the physical reality of Christ's Body is in all of us united in His church (in my view, it is the Catholic Church). As you know, Paul likes this analogy a lot.

From previous posts of yours I gather that you left the Catholic Church at some point. Let me know if I'm wrong. If I have it right, I'd be curious to hear how that came about. I'm not looking to attack your testimony and I hope no one else is, just curious what happened. I once found myself drifting from the Church, but the more I prayed and sought the truth, the more I came to believe that the Catholic Church is truly the Church Christ established.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 19, 2004.

I have many friends who use their atrophied conscience as an excuse to go against Church teaching, especially when it comes to artificial contraception.

At the risk of being self effacing, I'll have to apologize that statement. It was pretty arrogant of me to say that my friends' consciences have atrophied. This statement's really self-accusing because my conscience had atrophied from lack of use for a time. I'm still working to strengthen it. Lord, grant me humility.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 19, 2004.

Sure, Faith. Yours is an "invisible kingdom" / "invisible church."

We, sheep, have a visible Head/Shepherd/Vicar of Christ -- Pope John Paul II; a visible center -- the Vatican; a visible Kingdom of Christ -- the Holy Catholic Church; a visible representation of the humanity of Jesus -- the Crucifix; a visible Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus -- the Most Blessed Sacrament/The Eucharist; a visible prayer -- the Rosary; a visible "photograph" of Mary -- the tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe; a visible representation of the Saints -- their statues, pictures, and photographs.

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 20, 2004.

It's very true she became a new creature; not in Christ, however. Faith became a bibliolater. She worships the Bible.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 20, 2004.

I appreciate it when someone is nice like you are. That is how a true Christian should be. Emily seems like a sincere person as well.

"Soon afterwards the wolf knocked, and cried, 'Open the door, grandmother, I am Little Red Riding Hood, and am bringing you some cakes.'"

-- (bedtime@story.teller), February 20, 2004.

Faith,

Thank you for sharing your testimony. Having kids prompted me on my search for the truth and to study Scripture too. God's Spirit led me to the truth in the Catholic faith. I'll pray that God continues to touch your life. Thanks again for replying.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 20, 2004.

Faith said: I never really consciously decided to "leave the Church." I was a nominal Catholic at best. I just wasn't interested in religion. I hated going to church as a kid. So when I was old enough, I just stopped going.

Faith said: Any way.., long story short--One day I found myself in a bible-based church and the pastor had us opened-up to the Scriptures. I was following along when suddenly it hit me that this was God speaking to me. The words just seemed to jump up at me and I just *knew.*

Faith, it seems like your attitude is really what changed. Catholics read the Bible in their church too, but as a child you probably weren't listening - like you said, you hated going to church. The Bible speaks to Catholics too. What is it about your Bible or your church that differentiates itself from the Catholic Church, and how do you know what you believe is true?

What if instead of landing in that particular church, you happened to end up in a Presbyterian church, where they taught Calvinism? Or the International Churches of Christ, a cult. Or the Mormons? Or Jehovah's Witnesses? No matter where you go, your interpretation of the Bible when you read it will be subject to your own personal bias and what you have been taught (your pastor's preaching becomes your "papal" authority, because you use his words to interpret Scripture, regardless of whether you consider him infallible). How can you and all these other Protestants (cults aside) be led into the "truth" by the Holy Spirit, if you all have different "truths" (and don't tell me they are minor differences, because there are some very major ones)?

In another post, you talked about not wanting to belong to an institution. This is not what the Catholic faith is. Rather, it is about belonging to God's family. We are His children.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 20, 2004.

Faith said: For example--the Scriptures clearly reveal that Jesus had brothers and sisters. I know all the theologicla arguments coming from the Catholic Church denying this--but what rings true for me, is the clear Scriptural revelation.

Faith, you cannot read completely clear Scriptural revelation in the English language. The word for "brother/sister" in the original Greek could also mean cousin. But I don't see you saying "Scripture clearly reveals that Jesus had cousins." You are imposing the English language on the Bible. There are also other arguments, such as they could've been Joseph's from a previous marriage, etc. I know you said you don't want to debate it, but I have to point out if you spread false or incomplete information.

Faith said: Purgatory is not revealed...and I know the arguments, so I will pass on debating it.

Again, I must correct this error in what you said. The book of Maccabees talks about purgatory, and whether the Protestants accept it irrelevant, because you are pointing out that Catholic theology is wrong for teaching something that is not in the Bible, when it is in fact in the Catholics' Bible. But you don't want to debate it, so we'll leave it at that.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 21, 2004.

Does anyone (Faith, that's you too if you like, no matter what Jimmy says) have any more verses that oppose the Calvinist idea of total depravity, as I described in my original post? My friend has given me plenty that support it, so I need to find some that oppose it. I will hopefully be able to research this soon extensively myself as well.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 21, 2004.

Faith is plagiarizing AGAIN! The above excerpt comes from Dave Hunt's "What Love is This," written in response to the Calvinist view on predestination.

Faith, can you ever come up with your own ideas, or do you always have to copy someone else's work and stamp your name on it? Do you know that's ILLEGAL? YOU HAVE TO SITE YOUR SOURCE!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 21, 2004.

Gail,

I'm glad you caught that. Faith does not play fair. Amazing how she would resort to plagiarism just to proselytize!

-- (Jimmy_B.@orthodox.catholic), February 21, 2004.

Faith, I am afraid Gail is correct. Using plagiarism to win arguments is deceitful and thus goes against the rules of this forum (courteous and Christian). In addition, the rules clearly ask everyone to act responsibly and appropriately. In the future, when citing someone else’s work, please quote your source.

Non-Catholics are invited to the forum to provide them an opportunity to “ask sincere questions about the beliefs and practices of Catholicism”. They wear their welcome out if they incessantly undermine the purpose of the forum by monopolizing threads, undermining other participants efforts by, among other things, plagiarizing, being argumentative for the sake of argument and criticizing our faith. Genuine, honest questions are always welcome, however, constant badgering is not.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), February 21, 2004.

Faith says, "The important thing is the verses that Emily asked for." ANSWER: The verses are not the problem, it's the commentary you copied under your pseudonym.

Faith says, "You just get mad with a good post and want to derail it." ANSWER: No, I have a problem with intellectual dishonesty.

"I am an anonymous poster who is not stamping anything to my name. You don't know my name. I am not receiving any credit or looking to get published." ANSWER: Oh, I think the credit is what you're after. Your writing style is substantially different than Hunt's and whenever you post someone else's writings it sticks out like a sore thumb.

"The only reason you know my source is because I recommended the book a zillion times here." ANSWER: I don't know if or where you cited this book, (certainly not in this threaad) but that's not how I know it's Hunt's book.

It is just one of the many reasons why honest people cannot debate you, Faith.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 21, 2004.

Faith wants us to know: ''I did not copy His work word for word...and I interjected my thoughts.''

So? That plus a buck-fifty gets you the ordinary coffee in any mall.

''Dave Hunt is talking about Calvinism. I think he is a very good theologian and I have recommended him a number of times.''

As a theologian Dave Hunt has no more authority to teach than any other self-ordained heretical minister. No more authority than Faith's --which is zero; -- She ought to interject her thoughts where they're asked for. Not here.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 21, 2004.

Authority is all in Christ's Church. One thing we know for sure is He never heard of your church; Period. The Catholic faith is the only faith given this world by the holy apostles. That's going to still be true long after you and I are dust, Faith. It's true as well that YOU reject Christ's own words. I speak with the clear understanding of where you come from: a heretical sect, started by men. --Show us in scripture where Jesus Christ ever mentioned a ''reformation'', or a protestant ''movement''-- You can't; and never will. But, by Golly, He mentions the CHURCH! And the Church is none other than our Holy Catholic Church. Everybody in the world knows this fact --except your hare- brained ministers. They're all disciples of those false prophets: Luther, Henry VIII, John Knox, Calvin, the Russells, Bakers Eddys, and your own lunatics, Billy Sundays, Jim & Tammys, Jimmy Swaggarts, Oral Roberts, David Koreshes, Jim Jones' etc., etc., ad nauseam. You are ALL birds of a feather.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 21, 2004.

Faith,

You have no shame whatsoever. It amazes me that you try to turn your lack of integrity around on me. I'm not the one that tried to pawn someone else's work off as my own. I would be HUGELY embarassed if I were you, but not only do you have no consciousness of guilt but you try to blame the one who uncovered your deceit.

I am sure Dave Hunt would be proud to know that his work was not only copied and pasted, but EDITED as well.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 21, 2004.

Faith, don't deflect the argument, the issue is plagiarism and dishonesty. I have a problem with plagiarism and dishonesty. I have a problem with anyone who comes to the forum to proselytize under the guise of exhibiting a genuine interest in questions about the faith. Most of the time, this dishonest tactic works for awhile owing to the hospitality and charity accorded by us to all visitors, but after a bit, even the most patient of us grow tired of the same old castigation, abuse and harangue we’ve heard so many times before. Eventually, the perpetrator is asked to leave. Please respect our rules. If you feel you have a cause worth shouting about then I suggest you open a forum of your own and have at it.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), February 21, 2004.

Faith, you say you come under no pretense. In the post before that one, you’ve said your mission in coming here is “to lead people to Christ”. Well now, finally, you’re being honest. Your purpose here is to lead Catholics to Christ. Faith, this forum is not for those who want to lead people to Christ in the best way they see fit. This forum’s purpose is clearly outlined in the “Rules of the Forum” thread. Your mission here, unfortunately, does not suit the purposes for which this forum was created. This forum has not been created for non-Catholics to evangelize Catholics. I suggest you strongly think over your presence here in light of our forum rules. I won’t comment further. I will let you have a comment and then hopefully we can all get back to the topic at hand.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), February 21, 2004.

Emily,

You might do better looking for Bible verses that contradict the Calvinist doctines of Limited Atonement, Irresistable Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. Total depravity, as I understand it, is not far off from the truth.

"In Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma Ludwig Ott gives the following as a defined article of faith: 'For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary' (Ott, 229)." - quoted from James Akin's A Tiptoe Through TULIP copyright Catholic Answers 1993, from the September 1993 issue of This Rock magazine.

Just being careful ;)

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 21, 2004.

Faith,

My understanding of Total Depravity as defined by Calvinists is that man can do no good without the grace of God. I think it's the other tenets of Calvinism that I mentioned in my previous post that deny man's free will to cooperate or reject God's grace. That's the understanding I have of Total Depravity anyway. Anybody have an official definition of Total Depravity?

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 21, 2004.

I see Emily provided a definition of Total Depravity in her first post: "The Calvinist belief is that man is so deep in sin (sick, dead in their sin) that they are unable to reach out to God for salvation. Thus, salvation is completely a gift from God. Faith and Repentance are both gifts from God and come nothing from our own merit, simply because we are not able to do them, being so corrupt as humans. "

Am I missing something here? What's wrong with this definition? Where exactly does it go against Scripture or Catholic teaching? Maybe I paraphrased it incorrectly. I think the big problem is the the idea that God chooses only a select group for salvation and damns all the rest, which is a conclusion Calvinists draw from Scripture.

Or as Emily describes it, "A related belief to this is that the whole world is not thus Christian because God "elected" or "chose" only certain people for heaven/salvation."

I think if we're going to show where Calvinism is wrong, we need to be very specific on where it is wrong and where it may be correct.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 21, 2004.

It seems to me that Faith's not leading anyone to Christ. Rather, she's attempting to lead people away from Christ's church into error.

She seems to be another Jeanie. That's, of course, if she isn't Jeanie reincarnated.

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), February 21, 2004.

Now that I look at it, I'm probably splitting hairs. I think we all agree that salvation is an unmerited gift from God and that we can only do good by the grace of God. Even the good accomplished by unbelievers is done by the grace of God, whether they know it or not. All good comes from God. Sorry for complicating things.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 21, 2004.

Andy,

The Church teaches that man must cooperate with the grace of God in order for Christ's transforming power to work in our lives. Calvinism teaches that NOTHING you do has anything whatsoever to do with salvation.

Contrary to what Faith suggested earlier, the Church does NOT teach that we must work our way to heaven. However, we must respond to the grace of God . . . and that is an act of our will.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 21, 2004.

Thanks Gail. I totally agree.

Faith, I do not believe that man is so totally depraved that he can't choose good and I do not believe that God preordains anyone to heaven or hell. As Gail said, it is all dependent on our response to God's grace.

Sounds like I'm misunderstanding what Calvinists mean when they say "Total Depravity". I took it to mean that salvation is an unmerited gift from God and that we need his grace to come to him. I did not take it to mean that we cannot choose Him by our own free will and that it is God who "makes" us choose Him. From both your posts I take it I have misunderstood the term Total Depravity and that it does include all that. Thanks for clearing that up.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 21, 2004.

Emily,

I found a few links arguing on both sides regarding Calvinism. Like you said in an earlier post, we can't refute Calvinism that easily. Calvinists even have an answer to the point that Calvinism ultimately means that man has no free will and thus repentance is meaningless, or that Calvinism means that there is no need for repentance. Calvinists would deny both charges. The links are worth a look.

http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/badargum.htm http://www.biblebelievers.net/Calvinism/kjcalvnr.htm http://www.gospeltruth.net/harris/har_cal_toc.htm

These are Protestant resources but the arguments are laid out so you can better understand how the Calvinist might answer all the arguments we have raised here against Calvinism. I have already pointed you to James Akin, a great Catholic apologist, and his writings on the topic. The more I look into it, the more it seems that it doesn't matter much if you're a Thomist or Molinist (referring to the Catholic precursors). The arguments have been going on for a long time and there are points and counterpoints to many of the obvious arguments. That doesn't remove our responsibility as humans to respond to God's grace and repent. Whatever Calvinism says, or what we say to refute it, the bottom line is what Gail said in an earlier post: "man must cooperate with the grace of God in order for Christ's transforming power to work in our lives." This doesn't help answer your original post, but you may want to see what your friend says about the need for repentance or the need for us to choose Christ.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 21, 2004.

One more thing I found real interesting is that the Calvinist uses Scripture to back up every one of their arguments. In fact one Calvinist said he didn't become a Calvinist because of anything he read from Calvin, but strictly on his reading of Scripture. They are as convicted about their doctrine being strictly biblical as anyone who might refute Calvinism. The Calvinists claim it is the Arminianists who misinterpret Scripture. As Emily pointed out, Calvinists have a lot of Bible verses to back their doctrine up. It's the interpretations that vary.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 22, 2004.

Andy said: Calvinists have a lot of Bible verses to back their doctrine up. It's the interpretations that vary.

This is very true. I grew up going to an Arminian (Wesleyan) church, and when I came to college (a Calvinist college) I was confronted with these ideas I had never considered. Many of them are very prepared, having memorized the Westminster Catechism that states their beliefs and the Bible verses that support it. They challenged me for not having a viable alternative view of what predestination meant, and I was perplexed. However, I found it difficult to accept the idea that God would only choose to save certain people and let the rest die in hell, not giving everyone the opportunity. Their answer to that (they have one to just about everything and tend to be very well-studied) is "Why do you question God and His purposes? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, Why did you make me like this?" (verse in Romans somewhere). I hated this response, because I wasn't questioning God. I was questioning their idea of God.

Anyway, when I listened to Scott Hahn's "All Israel Will be Saved: A Bible Study on Romans 9-11", this tape series was the first I ever heard of an alternative interpretation of these ideas of predestination, election, etc. that actually made sense. This is important because Rom 9-11 is their longest proof text for their doctrine. I have not finished listening to the series yet (there are 4 tapes, and I'm going through it slowly), but it is excellent and highly recommended.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 22, 2004.

I'll have to get those tapes and have a listen. Thanks!

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 22, 2004.

Faith,

I'm trying to defend something I don't really believe, so forgive my clumsiness in answering your point. But Calvinists do have an answer to your point of faith before regeneration or vice a versa.

They would point to: "But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) . . . that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-10)

Their interpretation of this passage is that the grace of God comes first and regenerates the individual which then allows us to have faith (which is itself a gift from God). Their point being that it is not our initiative, but God's.

It's spelled out better at http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/theology/full.asp?ID=248 which is from The New Genesis by R.C. Sproul.

My point being that Calvinists use Scriptiure to answer just about any argument you can come up with. It comes down to interpretation, I think.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 22, 2004.

I hear ya.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 23, 2004.

I guess that's what can happen when someone recognizes no authoritative interpretation of Scripture.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 23, 2004.

Ahh, wow, what memories I am having. I used to be so hardcore of "election" I didn't believe everything Calvin said, but I followed a radio station that I will not name. The argument between free-will believers and election believers can become very hot. Iv'e never seen such hot sometimes hateful arguments with so much tension between the two beliefs.

There's really not much you can say but just preach your own beliefs of Catholicism in return. But if this person is anything like the way I used to be then it won't matter because whatever you say, they'll just keep using their "own" interpretations against you from scripture. If come to realize EVERY SINGLE VERSE a calvinist preaches, another denomination will use ALL OF THOSE SAME VERSES and have a completly different interpretation. It all goes along with just more and more denominational churches out their forming.

I forget where but in the Cathechism it talks about Gods grace (correct me Catholics if i'm wrong) about God's grace. I do believe it says God MUST intervene FIRST by giving us grace where we are shown the gospel and only God can give us that so we can see it. But we must make the choice to follow him. There's a name for that but I cannot remember what it's called. St. Augustine talked about it as well. But just there by saying "we have to make the choice" the electionist will jump all over you again blindly saying " but no one CAN seek God"

Who can understand Salvation anyways? I mean REALLY understand? Are we give Adam and Eve credit and glory for the entire time they DIDN'T eat the forbidden fruit until the time they did? No! GOD gave them FREE-WILL. It is God's glory for what we do with our free will because Almighty God gave us it. It's a gift, though now shatered but we still have it. We are not robots and there are verses in the bible that calvinist have to explain away as well, or at least the radio station I used to listen to.

Praise the Lord for Catholicism

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), March 15, 2004.

I think Faith keeps coming here because she senses a spark of truth in Catholicism hehe. I feel sorry for Faith. I really do. I wish people would not use such sarcasim against others in here, even some Catholics. People without Catholicism are lost sheep. I don't know, I just hope for all.

-- William (Ducin25@aol.com), March 15, 2004.