I read an interesting (Catholic) tract cencerning the difference in the number of old testament books between the Catholic and protestant bibles. It explained that the Palestinian Jewish old testament, once finalized in the first centuries A.D., rejected some of the Greek books that were (by then) in use by the Catholic Church.

Were the deuterocanonicals omitted from the finalized Palestinian Jewish canon because of some conflict with Christianity?

Thanks, Mark

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), February 03, 2004

Answers

Send this thread to “ New Answers” to invite further comment by posting this statement.

-- The Bumper! (bump@bumpitybump.bump), February 04, 2004.

There is a good history here.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), February 04, 2004.

I'm not sure I was able to properly digest that. What's the heart of the article?

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), February 04, 2004.

The Hebrew Canon of sacred writings was fixed by tradition and the consensus of rabbis, probably by about 100 A.D. This Canon, embodying the tradition and practice of the Palestine community, did not include a number of works contained in the Alexandrian version of sacred writings translated into Greek between 250 and 100 B.C. and in use by Greek-speaking Jews of the Diaspora and the apostles. Early Christians received the deuterocanonicals from the apostles. I don't know of any conflict between early Christians and Palistinian Jews specifically over the deuterocanonicals.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), February 04, 2004.

Thanks so much. Sincerely, Mark

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), February 05, 2004.

Hi Mark, This is just a guess and perhaps something you could look into. Perhaps the Jews who did not wish to convert to Christianity were looking for a way to deny the Church's authority. So this could have been done because the deuterocanonicals were written in a different language (not Hebrew).

Now the Israelites (turned Samaritans due to intermarriage with other nations) were the 10 tribes other than Judah and Benjamin. Judah and Benjamin (known as Jews) accepted the OT including prophets, while Israelites (Samaritans) only accepted the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). So disregarding books was in their history anyway.

Around 400 AD when the Catholic Church officially established the canon of the Bible, they affirmed the books of the OT as part of Scripture, including the deuterocanonicals. They also decided officially which books would be included in the NT. It is ironic that Protestants trust this authority when it comes to the NT, but not for the OT, when in reality the decision affirmed both at the same time.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 05, 2004.

Thanks Emily,

Your first paragraph states more clearly what I tried to get across in my question.

What was the reason the protestants rejected these books? The answer may have been in Bill's info, but that's a lot to comprehend in one gulp.

Thanks, Mark

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), February 05, 2004.

Perhaps the Jews who did not wish to convert to Christianity were looking for a way to deny the Church's authority.

I don't know of any historical evidence for this hypothesis. Do you have any?

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), February 05, 2004.

One of the main reasons why the Palestinian Jews have the books they have in their collection is that they applied certain criteria (which was finalized to a certain extent at their council of Jamnia, c. A.D. 90), the main being: 1) the text had to be written before 5th cent. B.C.. 2) It had to be written in Hebrew (or Aramaic). 3) That it had no hint of Hellenism (including a Greek text).

This canon was different than the Alexandrian canon which had the deuterocanonical books in them and was translated into Greek (the Septuagint). This was the Old Testament used by the early Church and She received all the books of it. There was of course debate over the canonicity of certain books, but this was allowed by the Church because She had not yet proclaim certain books as inspired and others as not (nor did She feel compelled to until heretics attacked the Church). This eventually happened, however, and was solemnly (infallibly) defined at the Council of Trent. Protestants eliminated the books because they contradict their heresies, such as the Book of Maccabees supporting prayer for the dead, and the like. It can be assumed that the Jews also had ulterior motives in their canon formation as well since things were not stable in Israel at that time (and Christians were rivals).

It may be noted that the Catholic canon of Scriptures is complete, whereas the others are incomplete.

-- Sean Whittle (s22w22@yahoo.com), February 06, 2004.

Bill- I have no evidence.

Sean- Well stated.

Thanks to all, Mark.

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), February 06, 2004.

"It may be noted that the Catholic canon of Scriptures is complete, whereas the others are incomplete."-Sean

I neah the same thing from the Mormons...

The toruble in acceptign the Additional, contested books lay in the fac thtat the Jews never accepted them, we have no Hebrew otigionals, and no evidence that they where ever part f the Jewish Cannon.

with Kiknf permission, I will write a longer, more detailed article on this, as I feel my time to prove my worth and talent has come, and htat I will procceed, however, with due caution to present both sides fo the story.Withm, as I said, kind permission.

( I am in the porccess of wporkign on the KJV Thread I promised, which takes a little time.)

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 06, 2004.

Are there any contradictions besides praying for the dead? I don't think the lack of "Jewishness" concerns us Catholics, because they didn't accept Jesus either (no disrespect intended).

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), February 06, 2004.

Mark, you make an excellent point. So what if the Jews didn't accept the deuteros . . .? They also do not believe that Christ is the Messiah!

The Greek Septuigint DID contain the deuteros, and the Greek Septuigint was the primary text extant during those times.

*****

Here's our Fathers quoting from the deuteros (just a few):

"Having then this hope, let our souls be bound to Him who is faithful in His promises, and just in His judgments. He who has commanded us not to lie, shall much more Himself not lie; for nothing is impossible with God, except to lie. Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us, and let us consider that all things are nigh unto Him. By the word of His might He established all things, and by His word He can overthrow them. 'Who shall say unto Him, What hast thou done ? or, Who shall resist the power of His strength?'[Wisdom 12:12,ll:22] When and as He pleases He will do all things, and none of the things determined by Him shall pass away? All things are open before Him, and nothing can be hidden from His counsel. 'The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handy-work. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. And there are no words or speeches of which the voices are not heard.'[Ps. 19:1-3]" Clement of Rome,To the Corinthians, 27:5(c A.D. 80),in ANF,I:12

"Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When you can do good, defer it not, because 'alms delivers from death.'[Tobit 4:10,12:9] Be all of you subject one to another?[1 Pt 5:5] having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,'[1 Pt 2:12] that ye may both receive praise for your good works, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed![Isa 52:5] Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. Polycarp,To the Phillipians,10(A.D. 135),in ANF,I:35

" 'Be just in your judgement':[Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. 'Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving'[Sirach 4:31]" Didache,4:3-5(A.D. 140),in ACW,VI:17

"Melito to his brother Onesimus, greeting: Since thou hast often, in thy zeal for the word, expressed a wish to have extracts made from the Law and the Prophets concerning the Saviour and concerning our entire faith, and hast also desired to have an accurate statement of the ancient book, as regards their number and their order, I have endeavored to perform the task, knowing thy zeal for the faith, and thy desire to gain information in regard to the word, and knowing that thou, in thy yearning after God, esteemest these things above all else, struggling to attain eternal salvation. Accordingly when I went East and came to the place where these things were preached and done, I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song off Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books." Melito of Sardes,Fragment in Eusebius' Ecclesiatical History,4:26 (A.D. 177),in NPNF2,I:206

"[New Testament books...] The Epistle of Jude, indeed, and two belonging to the above-named John--or bearing the name of John--are reckoned among the Catholic epistles. And the book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honour." Muratorian Fragment(A.D. 200),in ANF,V:603-604

"What, then, again says the prophet? 'The assembly of the wicked surrounded me; they encompassed me as bees do a honeycomb,'[Ps. 22:17,118:12] and 'upon my garment they cast lots.'[Ps. 22:19] Since, therefore, He was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, His suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against Israel, 'Woe to their soul, because they have counselted an evil counsel against themselves,[Isa. 3:9] saying, Let us bind the just one, because he is displeasing to us.'[Wisdom 2:12] And Moses also says to them, 'Behold these things, saith the Lord God: Enter into the good land which the Lord sware [to give] to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and inherit ye it, a land flowing with milk and honey.'[Ex. 33:1, Lev. 20:24]" Epistle of Barnabas,6(A.D. 74),in ANF,I:140

"And when these things are done, he says, 'God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth.'[Isa. 6:12] 'And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves.'[Isa. 65:21] For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: 'And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,' And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, "Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God. O Jerusalem, put off thy robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from thy God. Gird thyself with the double garment of that righteousness proceeding from thy God; place the mitre of eternal glory upon thine head. For God will show thy glory to the whole earth under heaven. For thy name shall for ever be called by God Himself, the peace of righteousness and glory to him that worships God. Arise, Jerusalem, stand on high, and look towards the east, and behold thy sons from the rising of the sun, even to the west, by the Word of that Holy One, rejoicing in the very remembrance of God. For the footmen have gone forth from thee, while they were drawn away by the enemy. God shall bring them in to thee, being borne with glory as the throne of a kingdom. For God has decreed that every high mountain shall be brought low, and the eternal hills, and that the valleys be filled, so that the surface of the earth be rendered smooth, that Israel, the glory of God, may walk in safety. The woods, too, shall make shady places, and every sweet-smelling tree shall be for Israel itself by the command of God. For God shall go before with joy in the light of His splendour, with the pity and righteousness which proceeds from Him.'[Baruch(reckoned as part of Jeremiah) 4:36-5:9]" Irenaeus,Against Heresies,V:35:1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:565

"Those, however, who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts, and, do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt towards others, and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat, and work evil deeds in secret, saying, 'No man sees us,' shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance (secundum gloriam), nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words, to be found in Daniel the prophet: 'O thou seed of Canaan, and not of Judah, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust perverted thy heart.'[Daniel 13:56-Susanna] Thou that art waxen old in wicked days, now thy sins which thou hast committed aforetime are come to light; for thou hast pronounced false judgments, and hast been accustomed to condemn the innocent, and to let the guilty go free, albeit the Lord saith, The innocent and the righteous shalt thou not slay.'[Daniel 13:52-53-Susanna] Of whom also did the Lord say: "But if the evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, and shall begin to smite the man-servants and maidens, and to eat and drink and be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day that he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.' [Matt 24:48] " Irenaeus,Against Heresies,IV:26:3(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:497

"For, when one reads of God as being 'the searcher and witness of the heart;'[Wisdom 1:6] when His prophet is reproved by His discovering to him the secrets of the heart; when God Himself anticipates in His people the thoughts of their heart, 'Why think ye evil in your hearts?'[Matt 9:4] when David prays 'Create in me a clean heart, O God,'[Ps 51:12] and Paul declares, 'With the heart man believeth unto righteousness,'[Romans 10:10] and John says, 'By his own heart is each man condemned;'[1 John 3:20] when, lastly, 'he who looketh on a woman so as to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart,'[Matt 5:28]--then both points are cleared fully up, that there is a directing faculty of the soul..." Tertullian,On the Soul,15(A.D. 197),in ANF,III:194

"Our instruction comes from 'the porch of Solomon,' who had himself taught that 'the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart.'[Wisdom 1:1]" Tertullian,Prescription Against the Heretics,7(A.D. 200),in ANF,III:246

"For they remembered also the words of Jeremias writing to those over whom that captivity was impending: 'And now ye shall see borne upon (men's) shoulders the gods of the Babylonians, of gold and silver and wood, causing fear to the Gentiles. Beware, therefore, that ye also do not be altogether like the foreigners, and be seized with fear while ye behold crowds worshipping those gods before and behind, but say in your mind, Our duty is to worship Thee, O Lord.'[Baruch 6:3] Therefore, having got confidence from God, they said, when with strength of mind they set at defiance the king' s threats against the disobedient: 'There is no necessity for our making answer to this command of yours. For our God whom we worship is able to deliver us from the furnace of fire and from your hands; and then it will be made plain to you that we shall neither serve your idol, nor worship your golden image which you have set up.'[Daniel 3:16]" Tertullian,Scorpiace,8(A.D. 205),in ANF,III:246

"At this stage some rise up, saying that the Lord, by reason of the rod, and threatening, and fear, is not good; misapprehending, as appears, the Scripture which says, 'And he that feareth the Lord will turn to his heart;'[Sirach 21:6] and most of all, oblivious of His love, in that for us He became man. For more suitably to Him, the prophet prays in these words: 'Remember us, for we are dust;'[Ps 103:14] that: is, Sympathize with us; for Thou knowest from personal experience of suffering the weakness of the flesh. In this respect, therefore, the Lord the Instructor is most good and unimpeachable, sympathizing as He does from the exceeding greatness of His love with the nature of each man. 'For there is nothing which the Lord hates.'[Wisdom 11:24] For assuredly He does not hate anything, and yet wish that which He hates to exist Nor does He wish anything not to exist, and yet become the cause of existence to that which He wishes not to exist. Nor does He wish anything not to exist which yet exists. If, then, the Word hates anything, He does not wish it to exist. But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God. Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one--that is, God. For He has said, 'In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.'[John 1:1]" Clement of Alexandria,The Instructor,I:8(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:225

"And again He says, 'Come all to Me, who labour, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest;'[Matt 11:28] and that which is added the Lord speaks in His own person. And very clearly He calls to goodness by Solomon, when He says, 'Blessed is the man who hath found wisdom, and the mortal who hath found understanding.'[Prov 3:13] 'For the good is found by him who seeks it, and is wont to be seen by him who has found it.'[Prov 2:4,5;3:15] By Jeremiah, too, He sets forth prudence, when he says, 'Blessed are we, Israel; for what is pleasing to God is known by us'[Baruch 4:4]--and it is known by the Word, by whom we are blessed and wise. For wisdom and knowledge are mentioned by the same prophet, when he says, 'Hear, O Israel, the commandments of life, and give ear to know understanding.'[Baruch 3:9] By Moses, too, by reason of the love He has to man, He promises a gift to those who hasten to salvation. For He says, 'And I will bring you into the good land, which the Lord sware to your fathers.' [Deut 31:20]" Clement of Alexandria,The Instructor,I:8(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:232-233

"[H]aving heard the Scripture which says, 'Fasting with prayer is a good thing.'[Tobit 12:8]" Clement of Alexandria,The Stromata,6:12(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:503

"But they said, 'We will not come forth: neither will we do the king's commandment; we will die in our innocency: and he slew of them a thousand souls.'[1 Macc 2:33] The things, therefore, which were spoken to the blessed Daniel are fulfilled: 'And my servants shall be afflicted, and shall fall by famine, and by sword, and by captivity.'[Dan. 11:33] Daniel, however, adds: 'And they shall be holpen with a little help.' For at that time Matthias arose, and Judas Maccabaeus, and helped them, and delivered them from the hand of the Greeks." Hippolytus,Commentary on Daniel,2:32(A.D. 204),in ANF,V:183

"What is narrated here, happened at a later time, although it is placed before the first book (at the beginning of the book[of Daniel]. For it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings....To all these things, therefore, we ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest any one be overtaken in any transgression, and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the Judge of all; and the Word Himself is the Eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah." Hippolytus,Commentary on Daniel,6:1,61(A.D. 204),in ANF,V:191,194

" 'For even now the angel of God.' He shows also, that when Susannah prayed to God, and was heard, the angel was sent then to help her, just as was the case in the instance of Tobias[Tobit 3:17] and Sara. For when they prayed, the supplication of both of them was heard in the same day and the same hour, and the angel Raphael was sent to heal them both." Hippolytus,Commentary on Daniel,6:55(A.D. 204),in ANF,V:193

" '[T]he prophet says, "The ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright," that is, about Christ, "Let us lie in wait for the righteous, because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings and words, and upbraideth us with our offending the law, and professeth to have knowledge of God; and he calleth himself the Child of God.'[Wisdom 2:1,12,13] And then he says, 'He is grievous to us even to behold; for his life is not like other men's, and his ways are of another fashion. We are esteemed of him as counterfeits, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed.[Wisdom 2:15,16]" Hippolytus,Against the Jews,65(ante A.D. 235),in ANF,V:218-9

"But the case stands not thus; for the Scriptures do not set forth the matter in this manner. But they make use also of other testimonies, and say, Thus it is written: 'This is our God, and there shall none other be accounted of in comparison of Him. He hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant (son), and to Israel His beloved. Afterward did He show Himself upon earth, and conversed with men.'[Baruch 3:25-38]" Hippolytus,Against the Noetus,2(A.D. 210),in ANF,V:224

" 'It should be stated that the canonical books, as the Hebrews have handed them down, are twenty-two; corresponding with the number of their letters.' Farther on he says: 'The twenty-two books of the Hebrews are the following: That which is called by us Genesis, but by the Hebrews, from the beginning of the book, Bresith, which means, 'In the beginning'; Exodus, Welesmoth, that is, 'These are the names'; Leviticus, Wikra, 'And he called'; Numbers, Ammesphekodeim; Deuteronomy, Eleaddebareim, ' These are the words'; Jesus, the son of Nave, Josoue ben Noun; Judges and Ruth, among them in one book, Saphateim; the First and Second of Kings, among them one, Samouel, that is, 'The called of God'; the Third and Fourth of Kings in one, Wammelch David, that is, 'The kingdom of David'; of the Chronicles, the First and Second in one, Dabreiamein, that is, 'Records of days'; Esdras, First and Second in one, Ezra, that is, 'An assistant'; the book of Psalms, Spharthelleim; the Proverbs of Solomon, Me-loth; Ecclesiastes, Koelth; the Song of Songs (not, as some suppose, Songs of Songs), Sir Hassirim; Isaiah, Jessia; Jeremiah, with Lamentations and the epistle in one, Jeremia[Baruch 6]; Daniel, Daniel; Ezekiel, Jezekiel; Job, Job; Esther, Esther. And besides these there are the Maccabees, which are entitled Sarbeth Sabanaiel." Origen,Canon of the Hebrews,Fragment in Eusebius' Church History,6:25 [A.D. 244],in NPNF2,I:272

"In all these cases consider whether it would not be well to remember the words, 'Thou shalt not remove the ancient landmarks which thy fathers have set.' Nor do I say this because I shun the labour of investigating the Jewish Scriptures, and comparing them with ours, and noticing their various readings. This, if it be not arrogant to say it, I have already to a great extent done to the best of my ability, labouring hard to get at the meaning in all the editions and various readings; while I paid particular attention to the interpretation of the Seventy, lest I might to be found to accredit any forgery to the Churches which are under heaven, and give an occasion to those who seek such a starting-point for gratifying their desire to slander the common brethren, and to bring some accusation against those who shine forth in our community." Origen,To Africanus,5(ante A.D. 254),in ANF,IV:387 In Origen's epistle to Julius Africanus he defends the canonicity of Susanna [Daniel 13], Bel and the Dragon[Daniel 14], the prayers of Azarias[Daniel 3], and the hymn of praise of the three youths in the fiery furnace[Daniel 3].

"And I make it my endeavour not to be ignorant of their various readings, lest in my controversies with the Jews I should quote to them what is not found in their copies, and that I may make some use of what is found there, even although it should not be in our Scriptures. For if we are so prepared for them in our discussions, they will not, as is their manner, scornfully laugh at Gentile believers for their ignorance of the true reading as they have them." Origen,To Africanus,5(ante A.D. 254),in ANF,IV:387

"[A]s is written in the book of Tobit: 'It is good to keep close the secret of a king, but honourable to reveal the works of God,'[Tobit 12:7]--in a way consistent with truth and God's glory, and so as to be to the advantage of the multitude." Origen,Against Celsus,5:19(A.D. 248),in ANF,IV:551

"But he ought tp know that those who wish to live according to the teaching of Sacred Scripture understand the saying, 'The knowledge of the unwise is as talk without sense,'[Sirach 21:18] and have learnt 'to be ready always to give an answer to everyone that asketh us a reason for the hope that is in us.'[1 Pt 3:15] " Origen,Against Celsus,7:12(A.D. 248),in ANF,IV:615

****************

So, you see they were used extensively. Then we have this from the Council of Carthage deliniating the use of the deuteros and calling them "canonical):

Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397). The Third Council of Carthage was not a general council but a regional council of African bishops, much under the influence of Augustine. The English text below is from Bruce Metzger. Canon 24. Besides the canonical Scriptures (listed below), nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the four books of the Kings,(a) the two books of Chronicles, Job, the Psalms of David, five books of Solomon,(b) the book of the Twelve [minor] Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, the two books of Ezra,(c) and the two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament: the Gospels, four books; the Acts of the Apostles, one book; the epistles of the apostle Paul, thirteen; of the same to the Hebrews, one epistle; of Peter, two; of John the apostle, three; of James, one; of Jude, one; the Revelation of John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the Church across the sea shall be consulted. On the anniversaries of martyrs, their acts shall also be read.

Note that the N.T. was canonized FOR THE FIRST TIME at this council WITH the deuteros.

Gail

P.S. All deutero quotes from above compiled by Joseph A. Gallegos © 1999 All Rights Reserved.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 06, 2004.

They key to thinking on this issue is this: The Church did not "add" books, but simply declared the Christian canon that existed. This took some taking away over by the consensus of the Church like the 151st Psalm, Prayer of Manasseh, and various "gospels" and letters. In the case with the Hebrews, they didn't accept certain books, so they eliminated (because the Septuagint was also used in Palestine). The Protestants aliminated books from the Church's canon (because all the reformers were apostates). Further it should be noted that those deuterocanonical books are universally recognized as being almost all originally Hebrew/Aramaic. Cases which are beyond a doubt are Sirach (which we have fragments of, and the prologue which was written by the author's grandson when he translated the text into Greek specifically says he worked from the orig. Hebrew) and Tobias (which St. Jerome rendered from Chaldaic while he was living in Israel). With more explorations we gather more and more Hebrew parts of the deterocanonical texts.

-- Sean (s22w22@yahoo.com), February 07, 2004.

Sean, you said,

The Protestants aliminated books from the Church's canon (because all the reformers were apostates).

Aside from the fact that they were not really "reformers," the men to whom you refer were not "apostates." The Catechism says, 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. 'Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.'

Clearly, the first Protestants were not apostates, because they did not totally repudiate the Christian faith.

-- Please (Use@Correct.Terminology), February 07, 2004.

I agree they were revolters at best. I was using apostate in the sense that they apostatize from their orders, e.g., Luther was a priest and he abadoned his order to marry a former nun. In the wider sense they were heretics yes. The fit practically any one of those words in some way.

-- Sean (s22w22@yahoo.com), February 07, 2004.