To Kevin from a different thread: St Peter in Rome

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Ian wrote, "1 St Peter 5:13 - The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark." St Peter was in Babylon, ie Rome. and its Scriptural!!!!

Kevin wrote: There is NO mention that Peter was in Rome at all in this verse. This verse is a greeting to the CHURCH that is in Babylon, however there is NO Mention that Peter is there at all. Remember, Peter was WRITING to the churches that were in "...Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia..." (1 Peter 1:1).

Ian writes: i assume that you meant a greeting FROM the Church; but, more importantly, isn't your a purposive interpretation. ie if one do not want to believe that he was in Rome, one can convince one's self that he was somewhere else but saw fit to send greetings on behalf of Rome.

to me, the clear gist is that St Peter sends greetings from Rome; and what better reason for doing so that if he WERE in Rome.

that's the common sense meaning of this.

PS Kevin, the thread i took this from is getting so long and involved that i did not want this to get lost.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 30, 2004

Answers

Ian wrote, "to me, the clear gist is that St Peter sends greetings from Rome..."

That is the POINT isn't it Ian? That is your OPINION for you said "to me..." I do NOT see that Peter states that he is in Rome and nothing in the word of God indicates that he ever visited Rome. You also CANNOT prove with any degree of certainty that this is not another FABRICATION of the Catholic Church to prop up their FALSE DOCTRINE that Peter was the first Pope.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 30, 2004.


Kevin

hand this Scripture to a Martian and he will tell you that St Peter was in Rome. to me. to most people that are not trying toprove a point.

i said "to me" because i wanted to repect yr opinion. i could have said "to any reasonable objective person".

why on earth would i send a letter to, say President Bush saying that the people of Mongolia wish him well when i do live in, have never visited, and most likely will never visit, Mongolia.

seems to me, too, that even if St Peter was not in Rome (a contorted interpretation that does not stack up), he was speaking for Rome. you won't accept that.

i know.

face it Kevin.

St Peter was in Rome. he lead the Roman church. he was Pope. and that's straight from God.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 30, 2004.


"to me"

you are spinning, Kevin.

let me explain:-

1. “to me” the earth is not flat

2. “to me” the rain is wet

3. “to me” the moon is quite a distance away

4. “to me” the snow is white

5. “to me” the mountains are high

6. “to me” God the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost

7. “to me” the Resurrection

8. “to me” the Ascension

9. “to me” He will coming to judge the living and the dead

10. “to me” the life of the world to come again

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 30, 2004.


There is NO Biblical evidence that he was ever in Rome. Paul wrote to the Roman Christians and saluted 27 persons (Romans 16:3-15) but did not mention Peter. In the last letter Paul wrote to Timothy from Rome, he said, "Only Luke is with me," and "At my first defense, no one took my part, but all forsook me" (2 Timothy 4:11,16).

Where was Peter?

He was not in Rome?

Surely, had Peter occupied the "papal throne" as the visible head of the Church on earth, Paul would have greeted him first.

Paul was imprisoned in Rome and wrote several letters while incarcerated. He wrote four letters to various local churches in Asia and not one time did he mention Peter. If Peter had really been head of the church does it sound logical that Paul would have so studiously ignored him? Paul wrote several individuals from Rome. In his last letter to Timothy he mentioned several who had forsaken him and then specifically said, "Only Luke is with me" (2 Timothy 6:11).

Where do you suppose Peter was?

The truth is SIMPLE, Peter was NOT the first Pope.

Nor was Peter in Rome!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 30, 2004.


1 St Peter 5:13 - The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark."

Kevin, this is like catching an eel with one's bare hands!!!!!

you tell me that you believe in Scripure alone. i, therefore, use Scripture alone and provide Scripture that proves that St Peter, the first Pope, was in Rome.

when you go on holiday to Florida, do you write your mother a postcard saying that you are in Seattle? of course not.

when your friend or relative writes your mother saying that they are in Florida on holiday with their wife and kids, does it automatically follow that no-one else is in Florida. of course not.

more importantly, woud it over-rule your postcard proclaiming that you were in Florida. of course, not.

i give you Scripture that is 100% on the point.

you fish around and find Scripyure that MIGHT, given a willing intellect, disprove God's word.

that is "purposive" interpretation.

i don't think i will ever understand "private interpretation" on this basis.

does it really and truly mean that the Bible says what you think it says? surely there are RULES OF INTERPRETATION. you know, rules that eliminate bias and other human motives.

your arguments are far from convincing. i'd even say they are far- fetched.

the Bible does not say that Scripture alone provides the necessary gamut of teaching. it merely says that the Bible is profitable/useful; and it also prescribes adherence to tradition.

yu ignore tradition. and when using Scripyure, you use the Bible to justify your beliefs. i have proved it above.

that is the weaknedd of Scripture alone and personal interpretation. that's why we have 30,000+ denominations.

Scripture states that St Peter was in Rome. Tradition confirms this.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 01, 2004.



Ian,

What do you NOT understand about what Peter is saying??? Does the verse you quoted say that "I Peter who am in Rome salute you"??? or does it say the "She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son."??? (1 Peter 5:13). This verse STATES that the church that is in Babylon (Rome), elect together with you (all who are saved), greets you; and so does Mark my son. This does NOT say that Peter was in Rome and that is an ASSUMPTION that the Catholic Church makes that you have YET to PROVE. This verse STATES that the church that is in ROME GREETS YOU and mentions NOTHING about Peter or his son ever setting foot in the city of Rome. You really have to be TWISTING scripture to get out of this verse that Peter was in Rome.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), February 02, 2004.


no Kevin

you are twisting it to make your point.

please, please.

just take a look at your last post and you will see what i mean.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 03, 2004.


heres your other post, btw.

line 'em all up and see who's ASSUMING.

you must think we are all mad, Kevin.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 03, 2004.


Ian,

We can go back and forth on this and you will NEVER convince me that Peter was ever in Rome for that is a FABRICATION of the Catholic Church. There is NO proof in history that he was ever in Rome, NOR does the word of God settle the issue.

No, Ian I don't think that you are all "MAD" just LOST.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), February 03, 2004.


It makes no difference if Peter was or was not in Rome. Even if he was in Rome, that doesn't make the Roman organization automatically right.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), February 03, 2004.


"you will NEVER convince me "

QED

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 04, 2004.


The Los Angeles Times published today, Feb 4, 2004, that there are about 70,000 to 100000 members of the Sabean religion, followers of John the Baptist. They live around Bagdad, and its surroundings. They bathe in the Tigris River which crosses Bagdad.

Bagdad is not too far away from Babylon.

If these many followers of John the Baptist still exist here, then Peter had to be here and not in Rome when he writes babylon in his letter.

1Pe 5:13 The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you; and [so doth] Marcus my son.

Even the letter shows the people receiving the letter are in what is now Turkey and Iraq. 1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 04, 2004.


Elpidio

you are starting to go crazy on this anti-Catholic thing.

who is the whore of Babylon?

Kevin and David, whom you are trying to befriend, accepts that Babylon is Rome.

they do say that a common "enemy" oftimes provides the best glue -- or, as i like to think of it, "any port in a storm".

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 04, 2004.


Am I a Catholic basher? No!!!

My family is Catholic, Ian. I am the one who actually took them in. Unfortunately for them, God took me on a different path.

A path for truth.

Ian, people see Revelation (The Apocalypse) and autimatically imagine Babylon is Rome. Revelation gives you clues. For Rome is 7 hills.

yet, Ian, Acts mentions these places:

Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

These people lived in what is now Iran and Iraq. Babylon is close to Baghdad, Iraq.

So there is a higher likelihood since peter doesn't give any clues as to whether he refers to real Babylon or the other babylon: Rome.

Let me give you another flaw in this argument: Jerusalem.

in revelation Jerusalem is called Sodom: Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

So, if I see the word Sodom any other place in the Bible, should I call it Jerusalem?

Of course, not!!!

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 04, 2004.


Elpidio,

question:

you would accept that the use of "Babylon" would be more likely than "Rome", were St Peter to be in Rome, surely? in fact, it would be certain.

suggestion:

maybe you should just imagine that Jerusalem was not a particularly nice place. persecution of Christians? Sodom?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 04, 2004.



We know Ian Paul was in Rome. So says Acts so says Paul's letter to the Romans that he intends to go there.

Neither mention Peter.

The only ones which mention peter are I corinthians (modern Greece) and Galatians. They mention Peter at Antioch (now in Southern Turkey). I Peter says Babylon. It mentions Mark.

Mark is mentioned at Paul's first trial (that is at Cesarea, modern Israel). This is about 60 AD.He is also mentioned going to Cyprus.This is about 50 AD. Tradition also mentions him at Egypt.

2 peter mentions Paul's letters.

Papias is the only one who mentions he was Peter's interpreter.

When did this happened?

The man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 05, 2004.


Elpidio,

You keep calling yourself "The man of Yahweh". What do you mean by this?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), February 05, 2004.


David,

it is the name given to me in a dream I had about Prince Roger Nelson, The artist Formerly Knowns as Prince, From Prince and the revolution.

Prince is now a Jehovah's witness.

In my dream in 2001 I had to talk to someone. He lived in this old ragged mansion. When I came inside the mansion, his servant said,

Sir, the Man of Yahweh is here to talk to you.

I saw a bust with the likeness of Prince. except there was no body attached to it.

We talked.

It has been 2 years since I wrote to Prince about this dream. By this time I found out he was joining the Witnesses. I still have no answer from him.

In Aramaic, Gavra is man. So Gabriel means man of El(God).

I just like the sound of it. Man of Yahweh (God's name as revealed to Moses.)

Yah or yahw (Yahoo) is a short form. That is why I use my Yahoo account instead of my school account as I did when I still considered myself a Catholic.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 05, 2004.


Elpidio

would you accept that if Babylon = Rome, then St Peter was in Rome at the time he scripted "1 St Peter 5:13 - The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark."

hypothetical question for a non-Christian like yourself, but i would be interested in yr answer.

PS was Sheena Easton also in the Raspberry Beret dream?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 05, 2004.


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