"However, just because Mary obeyed God, and gave birth to our Saviour does NOT mean that she had any part in the salvation process. It was Jesus who died on the cross, Mary had NOTHING to do with it. "

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 23, 2004.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- --

I think Mary had much to do with Salvation.

Why didn't Jesus just simply appear out of thin air?

Why did Jesus arrive through natural birth?

There is a real significance to Christ being born of Mary. It had to be this way if mortal man was to grasp the full meaning of Salvation. Mary was a real mortal human and Jesus was also human. This is a very significant reality for our Salvation. Had Christ appeared out of anything other than a human natural birth, then how could man have proof that mortal man could have Salvation. Afterall, man didn't appear out of thin air after Adam and Eve. Man has been born of the flesh. Jesus was born also of the flesh as proof that Salvation is meant for all of mankind. Mary is very necessary for this evidence and proof of God's intentions. It is as if God would be saying, "Look, see? Here is how Salvation works. I have my Son to show that this really does happen. You don't have to be divine to experience Salvation. My Son was born as you were. Sure, I could have done it another way, but you have my proof."

To say that Mary has no part in our Salvation is to say that we our overlooking the full meaning of God's plan. Mary does not deliver us from sin; Jesus is our Redeemer. Mary does not wash away our sins; Jesus paid the price in full. But, Mary is the example of our human condition and the Grace God may fill us with.

There is also a great symbolism here with Mary and the Church. For me, Mary symbolizes the bringing forth of the Word and the word/Gospels. This is why the Church is called "Her" or "She". This is also another significance of the Church' role in the Salvation "process". The Church has the role of nurturing/teaching the path of Salvation. No, the Church does not save, but "She" brings the souls to Christ, as a good mother should. As Mary, her duty was to bring forth Christ to our world because this was God's will.

................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004

Answers

Ascend!

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.

"As Mary, her duty was to bring forth Christ to our world because this was God's will."

This is God's will! Why should we minimalize, trivialize, detract, ignore, belittle, omitt, or defile God's will? We must understand His will and accept His will.

.........................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.

Luke 1:26-36

"In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the House of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. He went in and said to her, 'Rejoice, so highly favoured! The Lord is with you.' She was deeply disturbed by these words and asked herself what this greeting could mean, but the angel said to her, 'Mary, do not be afraid; you have won God's favour. Listen! You are to conceive and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David; he will rule over the House of Jacob for ever and his reign will have no end' Mary said to the angel, 'But how can this come about, since I am a virgin?' The Holy Spirit will come upon you' the angel answered 'and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God."

The Jerusalem Bible

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.

The Gnostics would have had no problems understanding the above Scriptures. (That's for David.)

........................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.

Luke 1 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

up.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

David? No rebuttal on my initial points?

.................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.

hmm...I got side-tracked because there was a kkk address signed up for an email alert.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

Yes, I noticed them, too. I should show you some pictures of me going up against the KKK when I lived in the Dallas area. I walked right up to them and asked for some of their propaganda. When they saw the color of my eyes and skin, they became quite agitated. I don't know who was more afraid, them, the cops, the bystanders, or me. Anyway, the cops made their presence known and the kluts....uh, kooks....uh, KuKluxKlan high-tailed it out of there. I shall never forget that night.

............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.

rod,

I didn't say Mary was "insignificant", I merely stated the FACT that Mary had NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR SALVATION. It was Jesus who died on the cross and NOT MARY.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 24, 2004.

rod,

If Mary had ANYTHING to do with our salvation, please provide the scriptural references that show this to be TRUE. If you cannot, then Mary did NOT have anything to do with our salvation.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 24, 2004.

If bringing the Savior of the human race into the world doesn't have something to do with salvation, what does? Obviously that doesn't make Mary our Savior, or in any way equal to God. However, the fact remains, if Mary had not done what God requested her to do, there would be no salvation, for there would be no Savior. She therefore played an essential, even though indirect, role in God's plan of salvation.

Of course, if Mary had said "no" when the angel presented her with God's request, God would not have given up on the human race. He no doubt would have gone to "plan B" in providing for our salvation. Perhaps He would have asked another woman to be His mother. Maybe the very next year. Or a hundred years later. Or 5,000 years later, in which case we would all be either Jewish or pagan. Thank-you Mary for your generous "yes" to God's request that you deliver His Son, our Savior, to us!

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 24, 2004.

Paul, it is just inane to think that Mary could stop God's plan of salvation!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 24, 2004.

I don't read into Paul's reply that he is in any way suggesting that Mary could have "foiled" God's plan... (see plan B). Its just that for Catholics, Mary is revered and venerated for the awsome importance of her role in the series of events that lead to the salvation of the world. This is a very big deal. She brought Jesus into the world, cared for him, and suffered the pain of losing him through a horrifying form of Roman execution.

-- Jim Furst (furst @flash.net), January 24, 2004.

Paul wrote, "If bringing the Savior of the human race into the world doesn't have something to do with salvation, what does?"

Dying on the cross for our sins, that is what brings us salvation, NOT the mother of Jesus for she had NOTHING to do with the remission of our sins.

Paul wrote, "Obviously that doesn't make Mary our Savior, or in any way equal to God. However, the fact remains, if Mary had not done what God requested her to do, there would be no salvation, for there would be no Savior."

This is your OPINION and of course you are entitled to it, but you do a pretty good job of ASSUMING Paul when you make this statement. If Mary had NOT done what God requested her to do, I am sure that someone else would have been selected however, we do NOT have to worry about this now do we???

Paul wrote, "She therefore played an essential, even though indirect, role in God's plan of salvation."

Mary gave birth to our Saviour, and had NOTHING to do withour salvation. A woman exclaimed in Luke 11:27, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!"

Listen to Jesus reply, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Luke 11:28).

Paul wrote, "Of course, if Mary had said "no" when the angel presented her with God's request, God would not have given up on the human race. He no doubt would have gone to "plan B" in providing for our salvation. Perhaps He would have asked another woman to be His mother. Maybe the very next year. Or a hundred years later. Or 5,000 years later, in which case we would all be either Jewish or pagan."

Paul, do you not realize that you just CONTRADICTED yourself??? Earlier you said, "if Mary had not done what God requested her to do, there would be no salvation, for there would be no Savior." and now you say "if Mary had said "no" when the angel presented her with God's request, God would not have given up on the human race."

Give me a break...

Yes, Mary is BLESSED among women for she gave birth to our Saviour Jesus Christ, but that is ALL. Mary did NOT shed her blood on the cross NOR does she have anything to do with the plan of salvation. It is the blood of Christ that cleanses for this is PLAINLY revealed in Hebrews 9:14-15, "how much more shall the BLOOD OF CHRIST, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason HE IS THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, BY MEANS OF DEATH, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 24, 2004.

Maybe this issue comes down to "degrees of gratitude and appreciation"

"Yes Mary is Blessed among women for she gave birth to our Savior, Jesus Christ..."

That is precisely why she is so revered by Catholics. Keep in mind, She lost her "flesh and blood," her son Jesus Christ, the result being, the salvation of the world. I think that her role in the events leading to our salvation deserves a bit of gratitude. I realize some don't,... its simply a fact that Catholics do.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 24, 2004.

"I think that her role in the events leading to our salvation deserves a bit of gratitude."

Jesus corrected the woman who tried to give glory to Mary more than what she was due when He said: "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Luke 11:28). Catholics venerate Mary and place her FAR ABOVE what scripture reveals she is to be placed.

Catholics CLAIM that Mary was "bodily assumed into heaven" and this FALSE DOCTRINE is NOT taught in the word of God.

Catholics also CLAIM that Mary was "without sin" however this FALSE DOCTRINE is also NOT taught in the word of God. God said in Romams 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," and this INCLUDES Mary. God said in 1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Catholics say that Mary was without sin, so the TRUTH is NOT in them!!

The ONLY human to ever walk this earth WITHOUT SIN was our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for God said in 1 Peter 2:22, "Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth"

Catholics EXALT Mary to the position of "queen of heaven" thus Catholicism, like paganism, has her high priestess!!! (See Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-19, 44:25). This FALSE DOCTRINE is also NOT taught in the word of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 24, 2004.

This is a very interesting comment you've made, Kevin:

"Mary did NOT shed her blood on the cross..."

Technically, I would say that Mary did shed her blood on the cross if we look at it closely. Jesus' human-ness came from Mary--DNA, blood type. But, I know what you are saying, Kevin. I have this annoying habit of looking at things from all sorts of angles.

............................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 24, 2004.

Do you believe that God would arbitrarily allow the existence of Mary or that Mary was always God's intention and purpose for our Salvation plan?

.......................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

Predestination fans will have a great ol' time with the above question.

.......................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

The question forces us to identify our theological thinking.

...............................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

rod,

Please tell everyone here who died on the cross???

Was it was Mary as you seem to allege???? If so, please show us through the word of God how this is indeed the case. Book, chapter and verse please. You should have no problem with this if this doctrine is taught in scripture right???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 25, 2004.

Kevin, you were talking about Mary's blood not being shed on the cross. I merely made the connection. It is in the Bible, if we are to believe that Mary gave birth to Christ. As far as I know, all babies get their parts from their parents' parts, including "blood". I was really trying to be very "Sola Scriptura" in my answer to you. I read it and said it. Now, I never said that Mary died on the cross. There wasn't a need for her to me sacrificed. Jesus paid the price for our Salvation, not Mary. Is this clear enough for everyone?

Now, it is your turn, Kevin. Where did Jesus get his "blood" if not from Mary's own blood? So, Mary's blood was still part of Christ's human anatomy, yes? Whether this is significant or not is not part of this debate. But, it is a result of bringing in scientific attitude and understanding based on Scriptures.

..................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

Jesus paid the price for our Salvation, not Mary.

Well, that isn't exactly true. Let me recant on that one:

Jesus paid the price for our Salvation, Mary did too. She lost her Son; therefore, she too paid a price.

.........................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

rod,

You seem to be becoming more of a heretic that more you continue posting.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 25, 2004.

Finally! that's what I've been telling you for the longest time, David.

But, a heretic against who?

.............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

The Catholics would have me open a can of worms in order to return.
Kevins church would definately invite me for a bar-b-que, me being the main course.
Your church would not have me, I'm not a "youth".
Faith's church is invisible, so it would take me forever to find it.
That lutheran gal would have me attending services in a padded room.
Luke has wings.
Jim, Gail, James, and Ian, I can relate to. Paul is brilliant.

But, I'm the "heretic". So, Elpidio make room for me when you get your church in order. I will probably have to learn a multitude of languages in order to fit in with your congregation, though.

.........................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

But, Elpidio. While attending your church, I would go around and secretly tell everyone that Jesus is God. You probably wouldn't excommunicate me, but your "homily" would intensify with the book of Isaiah.

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

David, You are calling Rod a heretic? YOU, David ARE THE HERETIC, no doubt.

-- J.John (J.John@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

rod,

Are you calling for help again? Remember what happened the last time!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 25, 2004.

Ok J.John, explain why i am the heretic. rod is the one saying mary had a part in salvation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 25, 2004.

rod says:

"Jesus paid the price for our Salvation, Mary did too. She lost her Son; therefore, she too paid a price."

That's a good one rod, I never thought about it that way. Mary did pay a price for our salvation.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), January 25, 2004.

Ah! thanks J.John.

I have told people that when I am dying to please call for a priest. So, I still bleed like a Catholic and I can't shake that off. So, I go with the flow and let my honesty reveal its true-ness. But, this doesn't make me Catholic.

...............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

David. The only time I call for the calvary is when the calvary is needed. We are talking about me, I don't need to calvary to defend little ol' me. I'm just a tiny speck. The truth is greater than me. After the week I've had fighting with the school big shots, ha! everything is a breeze.

Uh, I have a collection of Mary images in my home. I'm also gonna get a small statue. No, I do not worship her, but I feel her joys and suffering. They have Martin Luther Day in some schools, hey, they can have religious days too. Protestants should have images in their dwelling of significant people from the Gospels.

.........................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

rod,

Let me ask this question again since you IGNORED it the first time,

"Please tell everyone here who died on the cross???"

I also asked you another question "Was it was Mary as you seem to allege????" and asked you to "If so, please show us through the word of God how this is indeed the case. Book, chapter and verse please."

This you HAVE NOT DONE.

Where is your scripture that supports your FALSE allegations???

To claim that Mary had ANYTHING to do with Jesus death on the cross just shows how much you really do NOT know what you are talking about.

We have had discussions in the past about your LOGIC right rod???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 25, 2004.

I believe I've answered those question 3 or 4 times already. I even posted the Scriptures Luke 1:26-36 and so did David.

There is nothing wrong with knowing and understanding the people mentioned in the Bible. There is nothing wrong with learning the Gospel stories through text, images, icons, motion, music, or whatever. The whole idea is about accepting the Salvation plan--Jesus Christ.

Ok, Kevin, I know nothing about the Bible. Absolutely nothing. Where does it say that in the Bible? Give me the chapter and verse.

................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

rod,

I suppose you did answer my first question when you said, "Jesus paid the price for our Salvation, Mary did too. She lost her Son; therefore, she too paid a price."

Mary may have lost her son, but she did NOT die on the cross, hence she had NOTHING to do with our salvation.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 25, 2004.

Second try for Kevin.

Now, it is your turn, Kevin. Where did Jesus get his "blood" if not from Mary's own blood? So, Mary's blood was still part of Christ's human anatomy, yes? Whether this is significant or not is not part of this debate. But, it is a result of bringing in scientific attitude and understanding based on Scriptures.

...................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

rod,

You wrote, "I believe I've answered those question 3 or 4 times already. I even posted the Scriptures Luke 1:26-36 and so did David."

Luke 1:26-36 has NOTHING to do with Mary having anything to do with our salvation.

You wrote, "There is nothing wrong with knowing and understanding the people mentioned in the Bible. There is nothing wrong with learning the Gospel stories through text, images, icons, motion, music, or whatever. The whole idea is about accepting the Salvation plan--Jesus Christ."

AMEN... Yes, FINALLY that is the whole idea isn't it rod??? There is NO MENTION in the word of God where Mary has ANYTHING to do with the plan of salvation.

You wrote, "Ok, Kevin, I know nothing about the Bible. Absolutely nothing. Where does it say that in the Bible? Give me the chapter and verse."

Now you are just mocking my words and that is TYPICAL behaviour for Catholics who do NOT have an answer to the TRUTH. I have repeatedly asked you to provide the verses which state that Mary had ANYTHING to do with salvation, and this you STILL have NOT DONE. Why is that rod???? If the TRUTH is on your side, then you should have NO PROBLEM delivering them. Catholics do a good job of ASSUMING many things that they have to PROVE and this they have NOT DONE. You say that you are NOT a Catholic, but in your writing style and in those whom you approve this tells a different story.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 25, 2004.

If Christ had arrived from thin air, I would agree with your comment, Kevin. I do not imply that Mary has the power to absolve sins. But, God chose a human to bring forth His only Son. What is that saying about Mary and all of humanity? Do you think Mary would have made a good church of Christ member? She was obedient to God's will, more than human on earth.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

rod wrote, "Second try for Kevin. Now, it is your turn, Kevin. Where did Jesus get his "blood" if not from Mary's own blood? So, Mary's blood was still part of Christ's human anatomy, yes? Whether this is significant or not is not part of this debate. But, it is a result of bringing in scientific attitude and understanding based on Scriptures."

Was Mary still alive when Jesus died on the cross??? If you answer yes, then you really do NOT know what you are talking about. If you answer no (which is the correct answer), then your premise is FALSE. Just because Jesus had the blood of Mary, does NOT mean that she had ANYTHING to do with our salvation. It was Jesus who died on the cross, and it was HIS BLOOD that was shed, NOT the blood of Mary.

Your "smooth words" rod are CONTRARY to the doctrine that we read about in the New Testament concerning the plan of salvation and just like all other FALSE TEACHERS are to be REJECTED.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 25, 2004.

Kevin said,"If you answer no (which is the correct answer)"

Mary was not alive when Jesus died on the cross?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 25, 2004.

sorry....."...more than any other human on earth."

I'm not mocking you. I'm mocking the "Sola Scriptura" system. I'm not an "SS" guy. Here is a perfect example of the clashing of "SS" and simple reasoning. I don't have to go digging through lost scrolls in order to make a viable point. Jesus was also human. There are truths that never change. DNA is that stuff that makes humans. I couldn't find that in the Bible, but I'm sure that it is there--not written in the same terms, though. Someday, even the scientists will read the Bible and understand that their discoveries were always there, but (like parables) the words were synonyms and homonyms and symbolism and metaphors and yes, even literal.

......................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

rod,

Don't use a straw man against sola scriptura. No one ever claimed the bible contains all knowledge.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 25, 2004.

rod,

You wrote, "If Christ had arrived from thin air, I would agree with your comment, Kevin. I do not imply that Mary has the power to absolve sins."

Then why do you continue to hold to the LIE that Mary had anything to do with our salvation??? If Jesus died on the cross (and He did) and this was FOR the remission of our sins (and it was) and it was His blood that was shed (and it was) then how can you state that Mary had anything to do with it when the word of God is silent on this issue??? You try to think too much when looking at the word of God. It is NOT that hard to understand.

You wrote, "But, God chose a human to bring forth His only Son."

Yes, for that was the ONLY way that we could be saved. Yes, Mary was blessed among women, but Catholics elevate Mary to a position that she was NEVER intended to be. Catholics CLAIM that they don't worship Mary, but they do NOT speak the truth.

You wrote, "What is that saying about Mary and all of humanity? Do you think Mary would have made a good church of Christ member? She was obedient to God's will, more than human on earth."

Jesus HAD to become HUMAN and God gave the very reason for this in Hebrews 2:17, "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

Catholics place TOO MUCH emphasis on Mary. Yes, Mary was obedient to God's will, but she did NOT obey more than any other human on earth and this is another ASSUMPTION of the Catholic Church that would have to be PROVED in light of what God has revealed in His word.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 25, 2004.

David,

Thanks for pointing out my earlier mistake. Yes, Mary was alive when Jesus died on the cross. I flip-flopped my question. Sorry...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 25, 2004.

Hey! now not only am I a "heretic", I'm a false prophet. Well, like I said, it is only an observation about that DNA stuff. God had it planned to have Mary give birth to Jesus, that was not some accident or coincidence. Mary lived a religious life, not some pagan or heathenistic life. She had faith. There is a message there for all of us to understand. I don't know all of it, but I sense that the message is there for all of us to grasp. And, it deals with the fact that all souls have the offer of Salvation when they believe in Christ and accept Him.

.....................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

My earlier question should have read: "Was Mary still alive when Jesus died on the cross??? If you answer NO, then you really do NOT know what you are talking about. If you answer YES (which is the correct answer), then your premise is FALSE."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 25, 2004.

rod wrote, "Hey! now not only am I a "heretic", I'm a false prophet."

No, I said "FALSE TEACHER", not "FALSE PROPHET".

rod wrote, "Well, like I said, it is only an observation about that DNA stuff. God had it planned to have Mary give birth to Jesus, that was not some accident or coincidence."

No one here is denying that fact rod. What I am denying is the FACT that Mary did NOT die on the cross. Jesus is the one who died on the cross, NOT Mary.

rod wrote, "Mary lived a religious life, not some pagan or heathenistic life. She had faith. There is a message there for all of us to understand. I don't know all of it, but I sense that the message is there for all of us to grasp. And, it deals with the fact that all souls have the offer of Salvation when they believe in Christ and accept Him."

Absolutely, and why didn't you say something about how someone is to believe in Mary since you seem to think that she had something to do with our salvation??? Yes we MUST believe in Christ and not merely "accept Him", but DO WHAT HE SAYS, NOT what Mary says.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 25, 2004.

Kevin, just as the Bible is silent on somethings, have you noticed that I too am silent on somethings? You basically assume that I am 100% Catholic and 100% in total communion with the Church. Hey, you accuse me of thinking too much, do you mean like what you are doing with me right now? I never said that Mary was the Queen of Heaven, as the Catholic theology does. I would have to really study up on that in order to make my beliefs clear. So, if it don't come out of my mouth, don't print it.

................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

rod,

You complain of being called a Romanists, yet you have never clearly defined what you believe in.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 25, 2004.

Ok.....here goes.

I believe much of Catholicism. I think like a Catholic. I disagree with some of the doctrine (a bad thing). I do not pray to Mary, but I do understand about her and why it is ok to give honor to her. She will not save me, but she did do her part in accepting God's will. Jesus accepted God's will and God gave His Son, not Mary, for our Salvation.

I have been around various denominations. Some are spooky and false, some are sound, and some are almost Catholic (Pentecostals). I have witnessed similarities in belief, some seem minor to me.

I don't believe that Faith Alone is the only requirement for Salvation.

I don't believe "Once Saved, Always Saved" is safe.

There are some issues with the catechism that do not connect for me and I must figure them out.

I do believe that souls will either fry or have eternal life.

I don't believe that the Bible is to be worshipped. Talk radio talks about the Bible more times than mentioning Jesus or even God.

I believe that not all men can conform to one faith system.

I believe in Free Will.

Well, I don't think this helps any. So, what do you think I am?

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

rod,

You wrote, "Kevin, just as the Bible is silent on somethings, have you noticed that I too am silent on somethings?"

Please tell me what it is that you are silent on rod??? It most certainly is NOT that Mary had anything to do with our salvation as your posts CLEARLY state. However, when it comes to PROVING this from scripture, your keyboard is SILENT. Is this what you mean by your statement above???

You wrote, "You basically assume that I am 100% Catholic and 100% in total communion with the Church."

No, I know that is not true, but you could have fooled a lot of people by what you have written in this forum.

You wrote, "Hey, you accuse me of thinking too much, do you mean like what you are doing with me right now?"

No, I mean in your LOGIC in how YOU interpret the word of God.

You wrote, "I never said that Mary was the Queen of Heaven, as the Catholic theology does. I would have to really study up on that in order to make my beliefs clear. So, if it don't come out of my mouth, don't print it."

I didn't attribute the "queen of heaven" bit to you now did I rod???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 25, 2004.

I think that giving my views is one thing, but to take the whole Bible and to make quotations and interpret them without a complete understanding of those Scriptures is not in my capacity to do. Some of the Scriptures may seem like a cut and dry process, until one discovers their history and purpose. You once said that any man can read the Bible and understand the Salvation plan. I don't see evidence of that in this tiny forum, much less the world. I can read a verse and come up with something different than Hitler's interpretations. And, besides, I could quote Scriptures all night long only to have us argue over them. I'd rather just make my views public right along with everyone else's views/interpretations. That's really what we are doing most of the time.

If my views are not accepted, it's because I know nothing about the Bible, anyway. Right, Kevin? Or, I'm a "smooth" talker and people should beware of "False Teachers". Well, ok. My posts are just my views so don't take them seriously. How's that for a disclaimer?

What I know is what I've read, heard, experience, and believe.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

Every man needs to seek out those who have wisdom in the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit is needed for us to understand the Scriptures. Simple man may get some meaning, but we do need spiritual guidance.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2004.

Hey, Rod,

I believe you have hit it right out of the park. These words of you say it all about Mary:

God had it planned to have Mary give birth to Jesus, that was not some accident or coincidence. Mary lived a religious life, not some pagan or heathenistic life. She had faith. There is a message there for all of us to understand. I don't know all of it, but I sense that the message is there for all of us to grasp. And, it deals with the fact that all souls have the offer of Salvation when they believe in Christ and accept Him.

I do believe that Mary, like her husband Joseph were chosen by Yahweh our God because they not only were righteous people before God, but they were believers. Righteousness means trying to live a godly life.

An unbeliever would not understand God's plan.

Your brother in Christ The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

This thread has gone through a lot of twists and turns. Forgive me in advance if I don't have this quite right or if my speaking for others is presumptuous. I'm just trying to clarify.

In summation it looks like Rod, James, Elpidio and I agree that Mary at least played "a part" in the "series of events" that lead to the salvation of the world. That being, Jesus' suffering and death on the cross. That she lost her "flesh and blood," ..... her son Jesus Christ, to execution on the cross for the salvation of the world is something Catholics recognize, and believe to be important. Thus ...the honor and veneration.

Keven and David believe that Mary is Blessed among women, but do not recognize or feel Mary's role "in the series of events..." is important,... at least not in the way Catholics do. They feel Catholics place too much emphasis on Mary's "role."

So is it "only" the sense of Mary's importance as understood by Catholics, that many Protestants find objectionable? (Besides everthing else)

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 26, 2004.

Sorry for my typo... Kevin.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 26, 2004.

Jim

i can definitely confirm that you do not agree with Elpidio's opinion. he does not believe that Jesus is God. his support of any statements about the Blessed Virgin must be treated accordingly. Elpidio is a non-Christian. tht's why we always get this "Man of Yahweh" sign-off.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 26, 2004.

"The Holy Spirit is needed for us to understand the Scriptures."

Really??? Did you learn this from your study of scripture, or does the word of God say that one cannot understand scripture without the Holy Spirit's guidance???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 26, 2004.

Hi Ian,

I'm aware of Elpidio's beliefs and know he doesn't see things from a traditional Christian standpoint. I included him rightly or wrongly in my summary because of his agreement with a fairly specific statement that Rod had made. I was trying to simplify the wanderings of the thread in order to better understand, or to isolate the reason why many Protestant's have such a strong, sometimes angry sounding objection to the the Catholic veneration of Mary. I also know that my attemt at a reduction of this debate to a "specific" is probably impossible.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 26, 2004.

David,

Please delete my last post on this thread as it was way off topic.

Thanks...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 26, 2004.

"The Holy Spirit is needed for us to understand the Scriptures."

(Kevin asks:)Really??? Did you learn this from your study of scripture, or does the word of God say that one cannot understand scripture without the Holy Spirit's guidance??? "

I learned it, plain and simple. Had I been raised in a Protestant environment, I would have read it. But, I grew up in the Catholic Church and learned about it through the catechism--the story of the Apostles. I also have read it in the Scriptures. But, my first enlightenment came verbally from a priest.

...............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

Simple man may get some meaning, but we do need spiritual guidance.

If my statement is not true, than someone please try to explain away the spiritual leaders throughout the beginings of time: Moses, Abraham, the prophets, the Gospel writers, the church leaders, the Reformers (right or wrong), your pastors, ministers, reverends, priests, evangelists, etc., etc., etc.,

..................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

The tough part is knowing who to trust. ("than" should have been "then", sorry)

..................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

Ian,

I am a Christian. I have been, I will always be, regardless of your personal opinion or anyone else's who believe that to be a Christian you must believe Jesus has to be Yahweh himself.

That is the argument that I have with David O and many others: the same passages and books which could imply Jesus to be God himself, also contradict each other. The evidence is 4 to 1 in favor of Jesus not being God himself.

Example: In John in response to Phillip: How long have you been with me and you still don't known me? Later Jesus says, I am going to your God and my God.

Romans 1 says Jesus came from thhe seed od David: translation, a direct descendant(Greek sperma) by Joseph and Mary having real sex.

Mark says that Jesus tells his disciples God knows only the time and hour of the endtimes.So Jesus did not know.

Jesus used to pray to God (not himself every morning).

The voice from heaven called Jesus my son during his baptism by John.

The 4 famous sayings besides the one from John saying Jesus could be God are Mathew 28, John 1, Ephesians,and Phillip's.

Timothy's 3:15 has been discovered to be a copists error. It says God in later translations, but he in the older ones. the difference : O becomes Theta.

Jim Furst may disagree with me,Ian, but he is also a person who is trying to find the truth too.

We were not born knowing all. We have to knock, and the door will be opened.

The Christian Yahwist.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

Mary was a filthy sinner. Her heart was decetfull above all else and desperately wicked.

-- JohnTheRevealer (Heaven@onhigh.glory), January 26, 2004.

This whole discussion is based on sentiment and emotional plays and has nothing to do with the words of God as recorded in the christian bible.

Please consider mary, who was human, in light of these passages.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

These passages describe mary, she is all of them and probaby more.

If you can find any passages that refute these, be my guest!

-- JohnTheRevealer (Heaven@onhigh.glory), January 26, 2004.

"rod" of (elreyrod@yahoo.com) Wrote the following on January 23, 2004

"I think Mary had much to do with Salvation".

In light of the above passages? Would you trust someone who was "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" with having anything to do with your salvation?

Would you consider a person whose "righteousnesses are as filthy rags" a good reference?

I would not!

-- JohnTheRevealer (Heaven@onhigh.glory), January 26, 2004.

John?

I thought I made my belief very clear. Mary does not absolve sins, nor does she "save" me. But, she did have a role in Salvation, as described in Luke.

I do believe that now you are bringing up another interesting issue--Perpetual Virginity and the idea of Purity (without sin).

..............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

BTW, "rod" is not my real name. Rod is my real name.

....................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

Rod, I would not so insult you as to presume that your beliefs in mary were a trivial thing, you yourself stated they are not. You said

"There is a real significance to Christ being born of Mary. It had to be this way if mortal man was to grasp the full meaning of Salvation."

And yet as the scripture I have quoted states, mary was a hopeless sinner, an evil wicked hearted person.

If you had of replaced "mary" with "woman" I could agree with your arguement, for yes, it was an important aspect of our salvation that Jesus was born of a woman, of the lineage of king david. But who the woman was is irrelivant, it could have any jewish woman of the line of david.

These words of God reguarding all those born of the flesh, including mary, cannot be ignored. They themselves trivialize your arguements, not I. The word of God speaks to you clearly, telling you where salvation lies and where is does not. Anything outside these issues, is in reality, trivial!

-- JohnTheRevealer (Heaven@onhigh.glory), January 26, 2004.

John, according to the Bible, Mary was "full of grace." Interestingly, the words "full of grace," translates "endued with grace." Grace, or Kharitoos (Strongs) denotes a charisma, a gift of grace. She was endued with the charisma of grace. The words spoken by the angel were strong words indeed.

Mary was also "the most blessed of women," according to Elizabeth who was phophesying under the annointing of the Holy Spirit.

It was also prophesied to Mary "a sword shall pierce your soul so that the thoughts of men shall be revealed." What does THAT mean? She was drawn into the drama of all dramas, the passion of all passions, from the very beginning to the very end. She shared in the greatest work ever done under heaven. The Redeemer of all Mankind was about to enter the stage; born of two parents, one human, one divine.

How little you must think of the Lord, to think that "any woman would do." God the almighty created a mother for His son, a perfect mother, and her name is Mary. Would God the father have thought as little of the Lord Jesus as you do? Me thinks not!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 26, 2004.

Rod, I would not so insult you as to presume that your beliefs in mary were a trivial thing, you yourself stated they are not.

You said

"There is a real significance to Christ being born of Mary. It had to be this way if mortal man was to grasp the full meaning of Salvation."

Pick and choose which quotations to use next time. Uh, Mary was doing God's will.

And yet as the scripture I have quoted states, [M]ary was a hopeless sinner, an evil wicked hearted person.

If you had of replaced "[M]ary" with "woman" I could agree with your arguement, for yes, it was an important aspect of our salvation that Jesus was born of a woman, of the lineage of king david. But who the woman was is irrelivant, it could have [been] any jewish woman of the line of david.

Well, it was "any" jewish woman who just happened to be Mary (with a capital letter). And, it was "any" man who just happened to be Jesus, I suppose. So, Jesus could have been "any" human man, too? The problem is that it wasn't just "any" woman because this would imply a random, arbitrary, insignificant, trivial, unmeditated, coincidental, "long shot", "roll of the dice", "shot in the dark", quantum physics, chance, action by God. And, if I may borrow one of Einstein's quotes, "God doesn't roll dice" (did Einstein say that?). Gon doesn't make mistakes and He surely doesn't work blind-folded. Moses could have been somebody else? Adam and Eve were accidents? Mary was created for God's will. God knew Mary's mind, heart, and will. Mary's free will accepted her purpose, her mission, and her significance in God's plans. God's plan, not Mary's.

These words of God reguarding all those born of the flesh, including mary, cannot be ignored. They themselves trivialize your arguements, not I. The word of God speaks to you clearly, telling you where salvation lies and where is does not. Anything outside these issues, is in reality, trivial!

Well, here is where the real problem begins. How can we trivialize God's will? This pretty much trivializes God when we cast away anything that doesn't deal imediately with Christ' sacrifice on the cross. I'm not saying that anything should supercede or overrule Christ' sacrifice because Jesus is Our Saviour. But, this also does not mean that there is no significance to everything in the Old and New Testament(s).
"Sola Fide" does not have complete significance or justifications for our Salvation. Why are the Scriptures so in tune with social order for each other, namely "love" for each other? Or, is Love trivial to our Salvation? How are we to prove our faith to society? Should we quote Scriptures without living by those teachings? Should we simply memorize the Scriptures and simply believe? Of what benefit will a lost soul have by us knowing the Scriptures? We must show it by living it.

I believe Mary has lived it and has no need for text, do you believe this?

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

Gail

I do not dispute your bible quotes, the words of God are our only guide to truth. Yes I agree that many gifts were bestowed on mary, and because of these gifts she was blessed. It was the gifts of God that made her blessed, not her own special fitness to recieve such blessings.

You say "How little you must think of the Lord, to think that "any woman would do."" This is a nice sentiment Gail but it has nothing to do with reality or with the word of GOD.

2Chronicles 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

God does not respect persons, as I said before, any jew with a womb would have done in God's economy.

And Jesus Himself said.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing

mary had nothing, could do nothing, was, in a sense, a nothing. It was only the grace of God upon her life that resulted in her womb giving birth to the Lord Jesus Christ. And because of that, we call her blessed.

-- JohnTheRevealer (Heaven@onhigh.glory), January 26, 2004.

Who in Heaven is "Gon"??? I meant to say/write/type/post "God".

..............................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

It is interesting that you put yourself higher than Mary, John. Have you noticed your use of captital "J" and lower case "m"??

So, are you saying that Mary Mother of Jesus is nothing, but you are more deserving of a correct spelling of your name than Mary's?

Whatever happened to "honor your mother and father"?

.................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

John? Let's try a little experiment, ok?

I will apologize afterward, trust me.

John, your mother is a "nothing"!

Now, did I offend you or make you feel bad?

Experiment is over.

I'm sorry. I was merely trying to show you how offensive your comments about Jesus' nurturer--Mary--are. I don't mean any offense to your mom.

..............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

Why is it that "Christians" can go hog wild over their favorite professional sports team and attend in humungous numbers, but call Mary a "nothing" and make her into a lowlife?

............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2004.

To answer your last question Rod, mary is not my mother, and she is dead. So your use of scripture in this case is rather, dare I say it, "trivial". You, as a living person to whome I show respect, asked me to capitilise your name, from rod to Rod. That is quite acceptable, a little pickish since you use "rod" as your forum name, but none the less, acceptable.

As to how I address myself, or some woman who lived thousands of years, that is my concern.

But as to addressing your earlier post, where you said "And, it was "any" man who just happened to be Jesus, I suppose.. So, Jesus could have been "any" human man, too? "

I would not myself like to be unsure as to who the person was that my salvation depended on. Jesus as I presume you mean, was not just any person. This we know.

Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease. Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Jesus, quite literally came down from heaven, literally! Now Rod, you must admit, that's a little different than mary, who did not come down from heaven.

These questions about Jesus and mary are really quite straight forward Rod, there is no ambiguity as far as the bible goes. The catholics have a religeon, like many others have theirs. They all differ one from the other as you well know. I am not here to debate if mary was this or mary was that. The bible is clear on the matter. mary was a woman, a jewess, of the line of david. She just happened to be used of God. A thing we would all hope for ourselves.

-- JohnTheRevealer (Heaven@onhigh.glory), January 26, 2004.

You are right Rod, my mother is a nothing, just dust, she knows it too. Jesus set the example for all of us. That is why Jesus, instead of saying goodbye to His earthly mother in a sentimental way as we would, simply said...

Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

He called her woman, she was just a woman, and He gave her into the care of another so as to fullfill the scripture youu quoted earlier.

Jesus honoured her, to fullfill all of God's word.

-- JohnTheRevealer (Heaven@onhigh.glory), January 26, 2004.

I'm sorry, I didn't ask for my name to be capitalized. I started the sentence using my real name. "rod" implies a user name or a false name; I was just trying to show that "rod" is really rod--my real name. I do not capitalize my name in any forum, here.

............................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

The term "woman" needs to be understood in its usage. BTW, I do sometimes use the proper form of my name, but rarely. Perhaps our physical bodies are "nothing", but our souls are not "nothing". I do not subscribe to the "Depraved" idea in Calvinism.

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

Well, this is the basic debate --"Sola Scriptura" vs. "non-Sola Scriptura".

"Jesus honoured her, to fullfill all of God's word. "

It isn't about God's word. It is about God's Word. We aren't worshipping text in a book. The Word is Jesus Christ Our Saviour. This is the problem with "Sola Scriptura" of idolizing paper and ink. The Bible, The Bible, The Bible, The Bible, The Bible, is the resounding call of "Sola Scriptura" soldiers. Well, let's make a resounding call for what is real, Jesus Christ Our Saviour, Jesus Christ Our Saviour, Jesus Christ Our Saviour, Jesus Christ Our Saviour!

If it isn't in the Bible, it must not matter or be true? Let's give God more credit than to limit Him to a book. Everything that He has created has meaning and purpose. If the earth were not here, would we be here? So, why Creation? So, why Mary?

It is ok to get our eyes and mind out of the Bible in order to experience God. (No, I do read the Bible. I also read people and life experiences.)

John, why do I get the feeling that you think Jesus reduces Mary to "nothing" with His use of the word "woman"? And, what meaning does "woman" have during His time?

.................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

Dark to light.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

Our friend, Rod, States:

"It isn't about God's word. It is about God's Word. We aren't worshipping text in a book. The Word is Jesus Christ Our Saviour. This is the problem with "Sola Scriptura" of idolizing paper and ink. The Bible, The Bible, The Bible, The Bible, The Bible, is the resounding call of "Sola Scriptura" soldiers "

Yet Jesus himself says of the word.

Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

And again He says. "Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Here Jesus says we are Sanctified by God's word? Powerfull!

And those that followed said of the word

"Acts 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,"

What word? The word of God? Without doubt. But why? Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And what has the Lord God of Hosts to say about His word.

"Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

The Lord of Hosts places His word above all His name. What a wonderous thing, but it should not surpise us. God places great store in His word, when He gives it, it is for all time and he is not a man that He should repent.

Yes, I have failed, and I as a man will fail again. But the word of God will never fail, it shall never fall to the ground nor come up short or wanting. You cannot trust me, I am a liar, the word says that of me, of all men! But who am I to speak for God anyway, I am but dust, a filthy rag.

Let God speak, now, today. Look! He does wonders, for the very sake of His word.

2Samuel 7:21 For thy word's sake, and according to thine own heart, hast thou done all these great things, to make thy servant know them.

We are instructed to live by it even.

Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

And to grow by it.

Psalms 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

There are many today who wish to debate the word of God, to disect it and, to their eternal peril, alter it. But we were never instructed to do any of these things. We were instead, instructed, to read it, meditate in it and tell it to others.

Our friend Rod has stated his beliefs.....

"Let's give God more credit than to limit Him to a book. Everything that He has created has meaning and purpose. If the earth were not here, would we be here? So, why Creation? So, why Mary? .....It is ok to get our eyes and mind out of the Bible in order to experience God. "

Rod wishes to "experience" God. He believes he is capable of descerning the many voices that cry out "This way.. This is the truth.... This is God's will, over here..." He places little store in God's word even though that same word warns us of powerfull deceptions, that could...

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect

That is his choice, I for my own salvation choose to remain rooted and grounded in the word of God. For of all things that have been and are yet to come it is the only thing I have at my disposal that I am sure, to %100, is pure and of God.

Psalms 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven

Amen.

-- JohnTheRevealer (Heaven@onhigh.glory), January 27, 2004.

John, I agree with most of what you've pointed out, but I do ask this:

You are believing that the Bible is complete, which it is not. You are saying that man is the ultimate source for knowing that the Scriptures are correct. You are also not mentioning the reality of the many Bible versions and the "other gospels" and their validity. So, when you make Bible quotes, any man can step in with his Bible versions. So, whose man-made Bible do you subscribe to when you say "God's word"? And, how do you know Matthew's, Luke's, John's, and Mark's doctrinal intentions? Let's not forget Paul's "recommendations".

All I'm saying is that man has a way of getting things wrong. He also has his interpretations, which are plenty. But, I think that you are also missing what I'm trying to point out. I know men who have memories the Quran and the Holy Bible, but do not understand and cannot teach.

................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

oops! I meant "p".

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

"memorized"

I also think that you have left out one very import key to understanding the Scriptures.

You also do not account for the invention of ol' Gutenberg's printer and those who lived before the Bible. What did they have, if not the Bible?

You mentioned Dismas on the cross with Christ. It seems like Dismas didn't read his Bible, yet managed to get "saved". How do you explain such a thing? There must have been other ways. There must also be other ways today in this so-called modern society. How do you convince an atheist with a super-duper degree in English Lit?

Certain things happen to people that make them understand and believe, then they come to reading the Bible. How do I know this?

...........................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

Explain that "Sola Scriptura" problem with the Pharisees; they were stuck in the library all day and failed to behold the True Messiah.

.............................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

Rod, I think you mean Gestas(Justus in Latin), the one to whom Jesus said you will be with me in paradise.

Demas or Dismas was the one who reviled him.

Justus is means a just person in Latin. Demas means people in Greek. It is the name used by the man who at first worked with Paul in preaching the Gospel, and later abandoned him. Col 4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. Phm 1:24 Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers

2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 2Ti 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.

Your brother in Christ The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

Hi Elpidio.

Well, here is what I've gathered about "Dismas":

"An early Arabic narrative identified the good thief as Titus who, along with his evil companion Dumachus, had attempted to rob Mary and Joseph some 30 years earlier as they were fleeing to Eygpt with the infant Jesus. When Titus bribed Dumachus to spare the holy family, Jesus predicted their end on crosses flanking his. Early Christians gave the good robber the name Dismas, from the Greek word for dying, and made him the patron saint of prisoners and penitent criminals."

Reader's Digest: Who's Who In The Bible Copyright@1994 The Reader's Digest Association, Inc.

I know what some will say, "Reader's Digest? Yeah, right."

.......................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

I did not know that, Rod.

Let me find the other passages which show Dismas in other Christian writings not in the canon.

Your brother in Christ. The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004.

PAPAL ADDRESS...... presentation in St. Peter's Basilica on March 12, 2000: 'purification of memory'.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=purification

-- RodgerJH (Anintiminy@yahoo.com.de), January 28, 2004.

OOPs!! Forget that link. Its the wrong one. Don't go there.

-- RodgerJH (Anintiminy@yahoo.com.de), January 28, 2004.

John?...........JohnTheRevealer?.............Yo......(where'd he go?)

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 28, 2004.

"About the words of Simeon to Mary, there is no obscurity or variety of interpretation....By a sword is meant the word which tries and judges our thoughts, which pierces even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of our thoughts. Now every soul in the hour of the Passion was subjected, as it were, to a kind of searching. According to the word of the Lord it is said, 'All ye shall be offended because of me.' Simeon therefore prophesies about Mary herself, that when standing by the cross, and beholding what is being done, and hearing the voices, after the witness of Gabriel, after her secret knowledge of the divine conception, after the great exhibition of miracles, she shall feel about her soul a mighty tempest. The Lord was bound to taste of death for every man--to become a propitiation for the world and to justify all men by His own blood. Even thou thyself, who hast been taught from on high the things concerning the Lord, shalt be reached by some doubt. This is the sword. 'That the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.' He indicates that after the offence at the Cross of Christ a certain swift healing shall come from the Lord to the disciples and to Mary herself, confirming their heart in faith in Him. In the same way we saw Peter, after he had been offended, holding more firmly to his faith in Christ. What was human in him was proved unsound, that the power of the Lord might be shewn." - Basil (Letter 260:6, 260:9)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 31, 2004.