Poor French

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I watched a news clip from CNN about how Europe views American politics, in particular the use of God. A French political analyst said that it ircks the French and Europe when American politicians envoke God. He then said that the religion of France is leisure. Scary stuff. People seem to describe Europe as this God loving place since it is the center of Christianity. But how wrong they are. We can only hope and pray for the French that they will return to God.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), January 23, 2004

Answers

You shouldn't generalise like that. I'm sure there are God-loving French, Swedish, Italian, German, British... people! Some Europeans may be irked when American politicians invoke God. Likewise, some American people may be irked by American politicians invoking God!

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), January 23, 2004.

You may find this article informative World Net Daily article

In general, Europe has become totally secularized. They do not mix religion and politics and they hate references to moral absolutes - such as claiming someone or a nation is "evil". We truly have very different world-views.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.


Dave,

As a European, I am proud and unashamed to say that I wouldn't dream of categorising an entire nation as EVIL! Individuals may be evil, but not the whole population of that nation.

There are 55 million people living in the UK, goodness knows how many more millions throughout Europe, some are evil, some good. If I were to say that the entire American nation was evil, I would be a liar, and Americans would, quite rightly, be offended.

Society in general may have become secularised, but that's a trait throughout the world, it's not confined to one continent.

God bless

p.s. God will not judge us according to which continent we happened to be born in, but according to how we live our lives, particularly how we love our neighbour.

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), January 23, 2004.


I watched a news clip from CNN about how Europe views American

Yeah , right CNN

And , Brussels is the capital city of Paris ???? __ At least , that's what an American girl told me once a few years back !! __ So that means , all American citizens are thinking the same ??

I like France , I've got family & a few friends overthere !!

I'm living next to France , they are my neighbours !!

Let people believe in what they want , what's wrong with that !!

I'm an convinced atheist , but who cares and why should they ??

We're all individuals with our own thoughts , good or bad !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 23, 2004.


But how wrong they are

Why , and who says we Europeans are wrong ??

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They do not mix religion and politics and they hate references to moral absolutes - such as claiming someone or a nation is "evil".

Especially , no mix of religion & politic , in the past it has proven , it went wrong !!!!

Claiming someones is "evil" , mmmmm , dictators are evil/rot , but it doesn't have to mean the whole nation is rot or mad !!

We truly have very different world-views.

Yes indeed

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 23, 2004.



Though I don't disagree with it necessarily being wrong to paint amn entire nation as being evil, sometimes it's necessary as a function of war. For instance, the actions of Germany's government and military during WWII certainly and justifiably could allow the nation to be painted as evil. Were there "good" individuals in it? Of course, that's the nature of war - demonize the enemy and in that case, it was well-deserved.

God has no problem calling a nation evil - ask Sodom - and He does indeed judge nations. In fact, most of the people we'd call "good" are actually "evil" in God's eyes and will be punished in Hell. Consider a nation you view as good . . . does it murder it's babies through abortion? Then guess what, that's grossly evil and there's judgement waiting. What standard do you judge someone or a nation as being good? Is it God's standard?

Now, that said in response to your indignation at my comments, I'll add that I think that America's self-perceived moral superiority is often, but not always, naive and foolish. We have our fair share of evil. But I'd prefer living in a nation that still has a sufficient moral conscience that it debates and argues to stop abortion and makes it a major political battle every year and isn't ashamed to pray to God at public functions and ask God's blessings to one that has totally surrendered to the evil of abortion and considers itself so mature and evolved that it doesn't want God even mentioned in public anymore. Call me naive or immature if you will, so be it.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), January 24, 2004.


You're right Dave. I also wouldn't be too quick to uphold the great U.S. of A. as being morally superior ... aren't we the pioneers and perpetrators of the "culture of death"? I heard from EWTN that the percentage of babies aborted in the entire US population today is the same (if not more) as the percentage of babies killed as sacrifices to the pagan gods in the Aztec civilization.

-- Jeff (JeffWhatley@yahoo.com), January 24, 2004.

I'm an convinced atheist, but who cares and why should they??

1. Every Catholic SHOULD care, because they have the duty to be concerned about the fact that, as a fallen-away Catholic, you may be headed to damnation.

2. It's impossible for a person to be a "convinced atheist." To be "convinced" of anything, there must be proof of it. But it is impossible for there to be "proof" that an invisible, spiritual Being (God) does NOT exist. Those who call themselves atheists are really only agnostics -- people who don't KNOW WITH SCIENTIFIC CERTAINTY whether or not God exists. They cannot say anything more than, "I think that God doesn't exist (even though I can't prove it), or, "I doubt that God exists," or "I don't believe in God, but I have no scientific evidence of his non-existence."


I also wouldn't be too quick to uphold the great U.S. of A. as being morally superior ... aren't we the pioneers and perpetrators of the "culture of death"? I heard from EWTN that the percentage of babies aborted in the entire US population today is the same (if not more) as the percentage of babies killed as sacrifices to the pagan gods in the Aztec civilization.

If, overall, a nation (flawed though it might be) is "morally superior" to another -- as "the great U.S. of A." is superior to many others -- then it is good to say so. Similarly, it is very important not to hide the names of nations that are, overall, "morally superior" to the "U.S. of A." -- such as Poland and Malta.

It is not true that "we" (the "U.S. of A") are "pioneers and perpetrators of 'the culture of death." Just as Sara warned against generalizing about Europe and about each nation of Europe, so we must not generalize about the "U.S. of A". Most of the people in America want nothing to do with "the culture of death." Don't blame on the whole "U.S. of A" the horrendous errors of a minority of politicians and a bunch of idiotic, liberal, unelected judges. And don't try to compare the human sacrifices of the Aztecs to modern American abortions. What the Aztecs did was obviously insane and without any excuse whatsoever -- the sheer murder of already born, visible, sound-making human beings. While most of us know that the abortion holocaust is horrendous murder too, many of the bereaved mothers do not know this and can be at least partly excused due to their ignorance of the humanity of the unborn (whom they cannot see/hear) or due to the extreme pressures that they feel.

-- (Odds@and.ends), January 24, 2004.


And don't blame all liberals for abortion, either...I consider myself a liberal but consider abortion to be an atrocity in most circumstances.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), January 24, 2004.

1 Every Catholic SHOULD care, because they have the duty to be concerned about the fact that, as a fallen-away Catholic, you may be headed to damnation.

Who says I'm a fallen-away ?? __ I just didn't like the fact I was baptized , it was not my decision !! __ In fact , that's the only thing I completely disagreed with my parents' !! __ After a while (years later) I heard (from a girlfriend) you could to "unsubscribe" yourself for free , and that's what I did !! __ BTW: But there's one thing I don't get , why I would be headed to a hell (as a fallen- away) ??

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(I rewrote 2 as my answer):

2 It's impossible for a person to be a "convinced believer." To be "convinced" of anything, there must be proof of it. But it is impossible for there to be "proof" that an invisible, spiritual Being does exist.

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 25, 2004.



I completely disagreed with my parents'!!

That came later, when you threw your faith away. Before that, you agreed with your parents and believed what the Church teaches -- and were perfectly happy to be baptized, receiving Communion, etc.. THAT's why you are in trouble.

After a while (years later) I heard (from a girlfriend) you could to "unsubscribe" yourself for free , and that's what I did !! But there's one thing I don't get , why I would be headed to a hell (as a fallen- away) ??

Well, its "free" in this lifetime, but you pay after death with an eternity in hell. Someone who is a believer in the Catholic Faith and then becomes a "defector" from it, commits a mortal sin that must be repented before death, to avoid hell. This was stated by the bishops at Vatican II: Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved..
So, your "girlfriend" was ignorant, and you are now paying the price for her stupidity and your lack of courage to persevere.

(I rewrote 2 as my answer): 2 It's impossible for a person to be a "convinced believer." etc etc etc. That's an interesting topic -- but for a different conversation. You don't have the option of changing the topic right now, to hide the fact that you were refuted. The only thing being discussed was the fact that you called yourself a "convinced atheist." I believe that it was clearly shown that this is a senseless term -- and that even "atheist" is a senseless term. You now have only the following options: to admit that you now call yourself merely an "atheist," because "convinced atheist" is a bad choice of words ... to admit that you are only an agnostic, because being an atheist requires proof that God does not exist, and no one has such proof ... somehow to demonstrate convincingly that you were not actually refuted. (You have only those options. You do not have the option of attacking anyone's belief in God. As I said, that is a subject for a different discussion.)

-- (Odds@and.Ends), January 25, 2004.


I think the French have a big problem. The fact that they are getting rid of veils in schools, or yamakas is a big problem. What the French are doing is not keeping Religion and the State seperate. It is making religion subjective to the state. The French are afraid that religion might actually pay a part in people's lives. Now I understand that they had a very turbulent history with the combination of the Church and State. But so did most other Western European Countries.

Someone needs to tell the French that they aren't protecting religious freedom. They are no better than the Taliban. They are just taking everything to the other extreme. Eventually they will declare themselves an atheistic society like the Soviet Union.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), January 30, 2004.


Someone needs to tell the French that they aren't protecting religious freedom.

SCott the Pope tried to tell the French exactly this and the Minister responsible in France basically told the Pope to get lost and mind his own business.

The whole problem with demanding "religious freedom" is like asking "how long is a piece of string" perhaps the church has a definition that would help as to my mind its a rather nebulous term.

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), January 30, 2004.


I think that the French government was correct in introducing the headcarve ban in state schools, France has a good record in promoting secular and liberal values within society and these honourable values are being transferred to the state education system, the French government is belatedly trying to encourage French Muslims to integrate within mainstream French society. People are wrong when they say that the headscarve ban is sectarian and divisive as the Catholic church and the French government were formally separated in 1905, if only those secular values were exported to Ireland and The United States.

-- Ross (rhmurphy80@campus.ie), February 08, 2004.

Ross, you inadvertently hit on the problem with banning headscarves. Why are “secular values” necessarily more “honorable” than any religious values? History shows the opposite. Today they ban muslims from wearing headscarves. Tomorrow they’ll ban nuns from wearing veils. Then they’ll ban anyone from showing ANY sign of their religion.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), August 31, 2004.


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