I would like to know about the catholic belief of santifying Grace. I am inclined to believe that people can lose favour with God through mortal sin and that the need for confession and penance is necessary for reconciliation but I don't see how that can stand up against some of Paul's writings(e.g. you are sealed with the Holy Spirit etc.) When says certain things like that or when St John says that a "Christian can not sin" ( and I refuse to interpert that as habitual sin because that means fat people who constantly overeat are hell bound also). Please explain how the verses that make one think that the Holy Spirit never leaves a Christian are worked out in the Catholic Faith.

-- J.D. Brabant (joshua123@qwest.net), January 21, 2004

Answers

Sorry about the terrible syntax. I swore there would be a spellcheck so I did not reread my question and this is my first time using this board. Anyway I simply meant that when I read some of the apostle's writings I don't see how that belief can be completely justified. Thanks

-- J.D. Brabant (joshua123@qwest.net), January 21, 2004.

What a wonderful subject. The truth is we don't know all the answers, however I have known some wonderful people who have a "besetting" sin, who try and try and yet seem unable to overcome. All I can say is "mercy triumphs over judgment," and without the grace of God none of us could stand.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 21, 2004.

J.D,

Great question. I don't know if this helps or not, but here's what I got out of reading 1 John in its entirety. Seems to me that one important theme of his letter is that we can know that we are in union with Jesus and have the love of God on our hearts if we keep His commandments and love as He loved. When I read verses such as 1 John 3:5-6 and 1 John 3:9-10 I take them as a guide for us to know if we love Jesus or not. If I sin, how can Jesus abide in me and I in Him? How can I know I have the love of Jesus in my heart if I sin against Him and go against His commandments?

Let me explain further. John says in 1 John 1:5-10 (NAB) 5 Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say, "We have fellowship with him," while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say, "We are without sin," we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. 10 If we say, "We have not sinned," we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

From a Catholic perspective, in which I am constantly working out my salvation and striving to persevere with Christ, I take this as John telling us that we all sin and when we sin we are not "walking in the Light" anymore. However, if we ask for forgiveness and are truly repentant, Jesus forgives us and cleanses us of our sins.

But John also tells us that "no one who remains in him sins" or "no one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God." Look at it this way, no one who commits sin is begotten by God. Or, no one who sins remains in him (Jesus). If God's seed truly remains in me I will not and cannot sin. But I can reject that seed if I choose to, even if I at one time accepted it. Then, woe unto me. In other words, we are not walking in the light, but are rebelling against God and denying our inheritance as Christians when we sin. Therefore, when we sin, we must do as John says in 1 John 1:9 above to continue walking in the Light.

I admit a Catholic bias when reading these verses. So I might interpret these verses this way because of my Catholic background. But I believe that Jesus' death was sufficient to save us all and that he redeemed us all but that for me to truly be saved in the end that after Baptism, I must keep Jesus' commandments, especially to love as He loved. In that way, Jesus will abide in me and I in Him.

For me, the Eucharist and Reconcilation are the means that God provides to aid us in this quest to love as He loved. When I sin, I willingly break this union with God and am not in fellowship with Him until I repent and ask for forgiveness. Just my two cents. Others more attune to the Spirit can probably explain John's verses better than I.

I haven't looked at Paul's verses regarding the Holy Spirit lately so can't speak to those yet. But in general, God does not take away our free will. He wants us to come to Him willingly, so though the Spirit may dwell in us, we can still deny the Spirit and disobey Christ, which is a willful breaking of our promise to love and serve Him in everything we do. I don't know how this sits with the concept of once saved always saved, or Calvinism. I'd be curious to see what those doctrines, or other Catholics would say about my thoughts on this.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), January 21, 2004.

Dear Andy,

I really appreciate the interpertation you posed. It was quite insightful and I like the way you explain it alot but from what I have read about Catholic belief concerning this matter your interpertation does not seem to completly agree(if I understand you correctly, that is). By this I mean that not only is the sinner who mortaly sins not "walking in the Light" but he is in a state that is unacceptable to God and the sinner cannot enter Heaven(or even purgatory) if he dies in this state. I must admit that I am not a Confirmed Catholic so I don't wholly know this doctine but if it is true that Christians are constantly wavering between salvation and damnation it makes for a wholly different way of looking at ones daily life and decisions( maybe for the better). I could believe this doctrine since it does make sense scripturaly on many levles but I have never in my life thought I was damned unless I chose infidelity. Thanks again Josh

-- J.D. Brabant (joshua123@qwest.net), January 22, 2004.

Josh,

I agree with what you say about mortal sin. Don't let me mislead you if what I said does not agree with Church teaching. I guess I was reading John's letter from a generalized point of view regarding sin, but mortal sin does kill our soul and results in a loss of sanctifying grace. John, at the end of this same letter says that not all sin is deadly (1 John 5, 17), but that there is sin that is deadly (verse 16). That is why it is so important to repent immediately. I think that choosing infidelity to God can be one way of describing mortal sin. I guess its important to keep in mind that for sin to be deadly (or mortal) according to the Catechism it must involve grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. To me this means you won't be damned for something you did accidentally, out of ignorance, or that's trivial. You almost have to make a conscious decision to turn away from God and choose grave evil. I'm confirmed, but am still learning so call me on something I say that sounds wrong.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), January 23, 2004.