My husband and I have been married for 8 years. We have no children. For the past year, I have found out that he has been using pornography, visiting massage parlors and paying for sexual services. He categorically denies this even in the face of overwhelming evidence. We have tried counselling both and separately (with Catholic Family Services). Should I separate until he stops, is this unrealistic? I love him very much and have been praying for him a long time.

-- Robyn Brooking (goldrushgal@hotmail.com), January 20, 2004

Answers

Bump!

-- bumping thread (bump@bumpity.com), January 20, 2004.

Even he denies , you have to try to find out why he's visiting pornsites , keep trying by talk him about his problem , that's a good start , I think !!

Should I separate until he stops, is this unrealistic?

Absolutely not , that would only makes it wurse for the both of you !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 20, 2004.

Dear Robyn,

Your situation is very difficult. You and your husband will be in my prayers.

The man needs to know he has a problem, and you have to confront him very strongly. If he does not respond, try bringing in someone he respects. (His father??) If all this fails, for your own well-being you should probably separate. You can do this in a loving way, telling him that unless he amends his ways, you cannot continue in that living situation.

Your life with him right now is a form of mental abuse. And the fact that he is paying for sex services means you may be exposed to a sexually transmitted disease, even perhaps AIDS.

Your husband is probably drawn to pornography out of a deep unexpressed loneliness earlier in life. Men are initially drawn to pornography for this reason. Then it becomes addictive in that his viewing pornography will actually isolate him more. As he becomes more selfish, he will be even less inclined to develop meaningful relationships with anyone, including you.

But nobody can change him unless he is willing to try. If he does decide to make the effort, he will need much kindness and encouragement. But, he will need to go cold-turkey. This probably means no internet access, or other access (such as cable). He will probably fall a few times in the process and be prepared for that.

But no woman should remain in a living situation with a man who frequents prostitutes. Not for any reason.

A good person to contact for advice on this is a fellow named Rick Fitzgibbons, a psychiatrist in W. Conshohocken, New Jersey. He has treated a lot of priests and other men struggling with this addiction. His number is listed and he specializes in phone consultations. He can give you better advice.

Take heart. But do press for a change and do not despair.

God bless,

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), January 20, 2004.

Apparently you seek a possible secular answer that will end the suffering? Separation is not the answer and will only make things worse 0-abstaining from sexual contact may be necessary...

Psychoanalysis is not the answer and has not worked -why keep trying it? -Suggest you pursue brief solution based therapy --find out about it at this site: Divorce Busting

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), January 20, 2004.

Oh, Robyn, what a tough situation. I am praying for you.

Even if he isn't interested in going to counseling with you, then I suggest you go by yourself. There are also places online and in real life that you can go for help. This site has a lot of helpful links: http://www.christiananswers.net/love/supportgroups.html

This site especially looks like it could be helpful: http://www.pureintimacy.org/online2/

Btw, it doesn't sound like you're interested in leaving your husband, but if he had this addiction before your marriage and you didn't know, then you may have grounds for an annulment.

Please let us know how you're doing.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 20, 2004.

Thank goodness there are no children yet. I don't like to say this, but you may wish to officially separate until he gets his life back in order. Not only can he give you a disease, he can go through the family money leaving you to pick up the debts. Addicts do lots of strange things, including forging signatures on loan documents, or perhaps deplete a 401K or Thrift Savings Plan and suddenly you have no retirement.

He has to want to change on his own, not for you or his father (as was suggested) or anyone else.

You can still support him with your prayers and by going to counseling sessions. I'll be thinking of you too.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 20, 2004.

Robyn,

As others have stated, you are in a terrible situation. If your husband only had a problem with pornography, then the answer would be not to separate but to help him overcome this addiction.

Even with outside sexual relations by him, it would be best if you do not separate. However, if he is truly engaging in sexual relations of any kind with other women, then you have to protect yourself. If you do not physically separate, then you must cease any sexual relations with him.

Once he acknowledges his problems and promises to stop, I would still ask him to be tested for any venereal diseases he may have acquired. I realize he is denying any type of sexual relations outside of your marriage, but if you believe it, insist on the tests.

I will pray for both you and your husband.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), January 20, 2004.

Mam,

If I were you, I would let him go to work one day, and move out when he was at work(If you have some place to go?). Let him come home to a empty house without you. You're husband is a sick dude that has to knock this off.

Sometimes you don't know what you had to its gone. If you want respect you have to earn it.This is no way for a Lady to have to live. He is going to make you old before your time(and you'll be lucky if thats all he does to you.)

You can keep praying for him, but you don't have to take this abuse living with him, either. Maybe if you leave for a while, this might wake his but up, and relize if he don't stop, he's going to loose you forever. Sometimes if you ignore someoene, than this is the worse thing you can do to them, because they never know where you're coming from.

And no matter how bad it is, it could always be worse, like GT said. You could have three of four little children that need him too. I would keep praying about this in front of the Blessed Sacrament after I moved out of the war zone. You are made in the image of our Lord. Don't let your husband run around with whores and come home to you. Believe in yourself, because you deserve more respect than this.

I will pray for your husband and you too in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

God bless you

-- - (David@excite.com), January 20, 2004.

David, I respectfully disagree with you on one point--HE should move, not Robyn (she should have the locks changed and stay, unless in some other type of danger).

Usually the one who stays in possession of the property is better off, particularly if he is making more money, the house might be all she has should things get worse and divorce is looming in the picture. I most certainly hope not, but one has to "hope for the best and prepare for the worst" in these things. A lawyer can advise in these matters better than we can, although if Robyn goes to www.nolo.com, she can find a lot of good sound self-help legal advice on the site, and their books, which are very useful are often in public libraries (make sure they are the most recent editions).

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 21, 2004.

GT,

I hear you! But, she can't control what he does(at this point).

My opinion was based on the "basics".(knowing nothing about the finances ). Usually a "cat" like this is a "control freak", and likes to bend the "elbow" in a lot of the cases, so I thought it would be best to get her out of "harms way" RIGHT AWAY.

But, if she can afford to get(Pat the Lawyer) and wants to go that route than I agree with you too. I was hoping for her sake that by her leaving, that it would make JR. wake up and repent.

Chances are you are right though, GT.

God bless you

-- - (David@excite.com), January 21, 2004.

GT, I do not, and will not ever practice this kind of law, except perhaps pro-bono. It leads to immorality by the lawyer if done for money.

AVC, This is way WAY too early to be even thinking about or suggesting divorce/annulment.

All, Changing locks to secure property will cause a divorce. Guaranteed (happened to me.) There is no real advantage to this here either. There are no children. The husband needs help. So does Robyn.

Robyn, Make sure you are safe, first and foremost. Then do what you can to help your husband. Most of all pray and frequent the Sacraments and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you. I'll pray for you too.

God bless,

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), January 21, 2004.

Frankly, Pat, if my husband was visiting prostitutes (and lying about it), there'd be no question. I'd immediately start looking into an annulment -- because that would NOT be the man I married. He's lying to Robyn, he's violating his marriage vows and he's endangering her LIFE, for crying out loud!

I think a woman who unknowingly marries a man who hides a profound sexual addiction absolutely has grounds for an annulment. He certainly doesn't sound capable of honoring his marriage vows.

I commend Robyn for wanting to work through this. But I wouldn't blame her one bit for wanting an annulment, and I just wanted to let her know that that avenue was open to her.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.

Thank you to all. I probably need to confront first, then consider what is next. I thank you all for your support --- it really has helped. I will let you know how it goes.

-- Robyn Brooking (goldrushgal@hotmail.com), January 21, 2004.

Pat, I was not referring to you when I wrote the word lawyer--based upon all of the writings of yours that I have read concerning your feelings on marriage, and various postings (maybe yours, can't remember) about the Church's position on Catholic lawyers and divorce cases, I would never think that you would take a divorce case, ever.

(Although in another thread, I would like to know what the Church's position is on lawyers who defend criminals (who have actually done the crime they are accused of) and get them off on technicalities, for their own glory as lawyers).

Also, Pat, when you said AVC was 'way to quick to mention annullment, remember that Robyn said she found out about the addiction last year. Many addicts start small, and become adept at hiding the evidence until the addiction grows to a point where they get sloppy or they just don't care! He could have been doing this 'way before Robyn found out about it. (And AVC, you remember that the Church won't even look into an annullment until a divorce is final).

I too commend Robyn for wanting to stay, but it is a lot easier to abstain from sexual relations if one or the other party isn't there in the first place. Just one episode of "make-up sex" can result in an innocent child being part of this terrible situation, which would make it worse, because if there were a divorce later, this person would probably still be granted visitation and custody rights, the courts being what they are. I wouldn't want such a person seeing MY children under any circumstances. NO WAY.

So yes, it's a painful thing to have to go through, but Robyn might have to officially separate--which you can do for years without ever divorcing. You want to do things to take care of yourself, and I do mean look after things like your finances, health insurance, and so forth. No one else is going to do it for you.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 21, 2004.

if my husband was visiting prostitutes (and lying about it), there'd be no question. I'd immediately start looking into an annulment

Based on what?

-- jake (j@k.e), January 21, 2004.

Jake, I believe it would be misrepresentation of character, if nothing else.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 21, 2004.

Dear Robyn,
I don't wish to pry -- i.e., I am not asking you to reply to me -- but if the reason you do not have children is because one or both of you has not been open to having them, then you are not living within a valid marriage. For a marriage to be valid, both of the partners must be open to its being fruitful -- i.e., for God to bless you with children, if it be his will.

If, then, one or both of you have been closed to the possibility of children since your wedding, I recommend that you begin your separation now, followed by a divorce, followed by a petition for a Declaration of Nullity from the Catholic Church.

Canon Law says that you are under no obligation to remain in the same abode with your husband, who is an adulterer. Besides this great injustice he is doing you, he is potentially bringing AIDS and/or other diseases into your marriage bed. Please protect your mind and body by leaving now (or, if possible, requiring him to leave). Do not let yourself be destroyed by your lingering feelings of love for him. Sometimes people have to be apart from those they love.

-- (The@Hard.Truth), January 21, 2004.

I believe it would be misrepresentation of character, if nothing else.

What does than mean, exactly? That he was intending to do these things all along, and used deception to get married? She didn't say that; only that she just recently found out about them. AFAIK, if tey were wed in the Church validly, they are both bound for life to those vows. Not even the Pope has the authority to dissolve a Catholic marriage.

Not that I'm any sort of expert. I have (thanks be to God) no experience in this area and no use for any of it whatsoever, but a valid marriage is a valid marriage. It's an indissoluable bond. There's a difference between there having been a defect with validity and just getting divorced with the Church's blessing, and let's face it, that's what this whole annullment fiasco since the 60's has been about.

To the original poster, you say that you were married for 8 years and never had any children. If that is because you contracepted, your marriage was doomed from the beginning. If contraception, cohabitation (fornication), and/or abortion are part of either or both spouses' lives before the wedding, the marriage will inevitably (in most cases) end in heartbreak.

God gave us clear laws to folow in the areas of marriage and childbearing. We can't blame God for what happens when we choose not to follow them.

-- jake (j@k.e), January 21, 2004.

Hey people,

Let's back off on the issue of why they don't have children here. She needs help with her immediate problem of what to do in regards to her husband's sexual addiction and denial there of.

Separating does not automatically have to led to divorce. One step at a time. Right now she needs to draw some healthy boundries for herself.

Robyn, whatever you do, please surround yourself with people that can support you, especially if you are going to confront him. Don't be alone through this. Counseling on your own can help also. You are not to blame for HIS problem! Keep praying for him, but remember to love and take care of yourself, and that involves healthy boundries for you. You are in my prayers.

-- - (let'shelp@love.com), January 21, 2004.

Robyn,

Best of luck to you, and I hope everything works out o.k. I also would be very concerned about contagious diseases (including AIDS), and you should not (IMO) have relations with him until you know that he doesn't have any. You have the right to protect your own life. Will put you and him in our prayers.

Jake,

Perhaps that's best left to the church to decide, if the marriage was valid or not. I would doubt though (personally) that the church would say it was a valid marriage if he was seeing prostitutes before the marriage and intended to keep doing so while married, but concealed it from her. Obviously we don't know, but it seems like kind of a strange habit to just start up in middle age. Thankfully, it's not something I have to decide.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 21, 2004.

Perhaps that's best left to the church to decide, if the marriage was valid or not.

I didn't make any judgements about her marriage. I just pointed out that a valid marriage is a bond that only be broken by the death of one of the spouses.

I would doubt though (personally) that the church would say it was a valid marriage if he was seeing prostitutes before the marriage and intended to keep doing so while married, but concealed it from her

But look at what she said:

My husband and I have been married for 8 years. We have no children. For the past year, I have found out that he has been using pornography...

Granted, it's not exactly clear what went on, but based on what she wrote, it sounds like a case of the "seven year itch." If the husband starts to act like a jerk in year 7, it doesn't mean that there was no marriage to begin with for years 1-6.

-- jake (j@k.e), January 21, 2004.

Please don't assume that because I have no children that it is because I have not been open to them. I have not been able to have children. Why should I be punished because I have no children? WHy does that make my commitment to my marriage any less valid? I did all the right things from a Catholic point of view. I kept sex until marriage, I did not cohabitate. Please do not make assumptions.

I said that I found out one year ago, that doesn't mean that it STARTED a year ago, and looking back, I can see that it probably was going on a lot longer.

-- Robyn (goldrushgal@hotmail.com), January 21, 2004.

Please do not make assumptions

I didn't. Here's what I said:

If that is because you contracepted, your marriage was doomed from the beginning. If contraception, cohabitation...

As for when this all started, that's an mportant piece of information you'll need to find out.

-- jake (j@k.e), January 21, 2004.

Jake, frankly, I think you owe Robyn an apology. While you didn't flat-out SAY Robyn was contracepting, you certainly implied it strongly.

Robyn, I'm pretty new to this board, and I've noticed that there are some pretty vicious posters here. If you'd like the URL to a really great board with a lot of wonderful, caring Catholic women, please e- mail me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.

Jake, frankly, I think you owe Robyn an apology. While you didn't flat-out SAY Robyn was contracepting, you certainly implied it strongly.

I do apologize if she took it that way. That's not how I meant it. All I was trying to point out that there are several sure-fire ways to marital failure. Contraception is number one. I didn't mean to accuse anyone of anything.

the URL to a really great board with a lot of wonderful, caring Catholic women,

This one?

-- jake (j@k.e), January 21, 2004.

Nope.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 22, 2004.

Thanks to all. You have all given me such support. I do appreciate. I will avail myself of the sacraments and pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance during this difficult time.

-- Robyn Brooking (goldrushgal@hotmail.com), January 22, 2004.

I shall say this, you do the work of satan by telling this woman to seperate from he who is part of her. It is sick that you encourage her to 'change the locks', 'leave when he is at work', 'pray alot and then seperate if ...', etc. You use a mask of piousness to spread the scourge of feminism. Woman of the man, do not seperate from your husband, but love him; be tender, be sweet, be submissive. You are his wife, do not listen to the evil others spout. Do not fall into the abyss in which america resides. You are one with him, be as you should.

To all of you speaking of issues, poisining by way of feminism: get away from her you minions of satan, be gone to where you came.

-- Mikeeusa (avrt@cat2.ath.cx), February 05, 2004.

If the woman is unsafe, she must leave the marriage bed and perhaps live separated if needed. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is the prudent thing to do.

BTW, Jesus Christ was himself a feminist. So am I, even though I was unjustly accused of being an "unsafe" male partner at one point in my life, for other reasons.

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 05, 2004.

I've been married 25 years and the last two years my husband acts like he does not even know I exsist.All the years before that we were very close.We have not had sex in one year and when i bring it up he acts like it is a shock of his life that even suggest such a thing.I caught him on porno sights a couple of years ago.He has changed towards me drastically in the last year.I'm like a room mate not a wife.He acts like he never wants to take me anywhere are have deep communication.It is like he has his life and I have mine.I have seen on the internet lately where women are e-mailing him with there pictures that he asked for on top of that I happen to get on a couple of sites where he has requested pictures of a man and a women now I'm beginning to think he is bisexual also and I'm so confused that trying to figure this whole thing out that I can't even sleep at night.I ask him about all of this and he deynes all of it.I feel in my heart that his mind is so far somewhere else that he will never come back to his senses,This is very sad and hurts me alot.I married him when I was onlt seventeen and he was nineteen.I have never had a chsnce to get a career because I have been home raising kids for the last twenty years and now I can finally get a career.At this time in my life because of him I feel so depressed some days I cry alot and have a hard time functioning.I miss him so much and love him with every breath I take.So your not alone if someone that has been through this that can give me some good advice I'm ready to listen.

-- Ginger Jack (targetme77@aol.com), March 19, 2004.

Ginger,

There is a lot of good advice posted on this topic on the thread above. Your husband has admitted a great evil into his life. You must confront him, but bear in mind that he may only respond by you taking drastic measures. If he does not repent, you may need to separate yourself at least for a temporary period of time.

Get counseling NOW! from a good priest and a marriage counselor. This emotional and mental abuse that you should not endure.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), March 25, 2004.

Jesus was not a feminist. Don't leave your husband ever. "Mental abuse" is nonsense. Just hang in there, continue on with life, it is easy to stay as one is and not try to destroy your life, just stay with your husband.

-- mikeeusa (mikeeusa@RMcat2.ath.cx), April 11, 2004.

You be surprise at how many men visit escorts. All kinds. My ex husband is a physican. We were a young couple in our 30s. I am very attractive and intelligent. Great sex life and very happy. My ex husband was soliciting escorts online and in every state. After 7 years this pretty much killed me. I am very crushed. 1 child. I tried to live with him but it is only hurting both of us. I will never be the same again. Two months prior to my discovery I had developed warts and herpes. Now I understand that I had chlamydia before and he was constantly prescribing me antibotics claiming it was a bladder infection. Leave him right away. It only gets worst. I have tried very hard and he has had fallen too many times. It ends of hurting you. God would not want you to hurt yourself. You cannot help those that do not want to be helped. He is a really good looking man that has no need for this and destroyed me emotionally and mentally and partially physicaly. I speak from experience and only pray that I do not have a fatal disease. Good Luck

-- Debra (webb4457@aol.com), May 04, 2004.