Does anyone have any good links to debates or transcripts of debates between Protestant and Catholic theologians? I am especially interested in any that address Reformed/Calvinist doctrine from the Protestant perspective.

For those who are unfamiliar with Calvinist doctrine (ie., that proposed by reformer John Calvin), it basically consists of five main points, abbreviated TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Infinite sovereignty of God, Perseverance of the saints

Other key words are "eternal security", "once saved, always saved", predestination, election, chosen.

Thanks in advance for your help in my study of Christianity! God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), January 19, 2004

Answers

Check out the thread below titled "To Faith about Calvinism"

I can recommend "What Love is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God" By Dave Hunt.

And also, there is a book titled "Debating Calvinism" by James White and Dave Hunt. I am going to look for the "Debating Calvinism" book myself, because I like both authors, and it should be interesting to see them disagree.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2004.

Thanks Faith!

I read that thread, and I thought there was something I could refer you to. It's called _All Israel Will Be Saved: A Bible Study on Romans 9-11_. It's a series of 4 cassette tapes by Dr. Scott Hahn, who is a Catholic theologian. He basically gives an overview of Israel's history and says that Israel are the real chosen people, as opposed to the Calvinistic view of predestination. Although he is Catholic, the study is pretty general and is something that could be agreed on I think by most non-Calvinist Protestants as well.

As for what I'm looking for, it's more debates between a Catholic and a Protestant than a Protestant with another Protestant. Thanks for the recommendations, though! I know this has been quite a struggle for me, trying to figure out what is right and true to God's Word. I think I am most convinced by either Catholicism or (to a lesser extent) Calvinism, so I am trying to sort out the two.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), January 19, 2004.

That's interesting Emily.

I suppose you recognize the similarity in the two?

Have you visited the Catholic board?

As far as Israel goes.., I do believe they have their day in the sun, so-to-speak. Scripture definately describes two things going on. God's chosen people (Israel) and his called people (the church). Revelation reveals the final judgement as being that of the Jewish nation...and that the church, already judged in Christ, is raptured away.

Fascinating--really.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 20, 2004.

Doesn't Gail also believe that Israel is still God's Chosen? I thought Roman Catholicism rejected that idea.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 20, 2004.

I could be wrong in my understanding about Israel as God's chosen in the New Testament also. I am not sure what the Catholic Church's official stance is.

Yes, I have visited and posted at the Catholic forum. Actually, I posted this same question there as well.

It's not that I really see very many similarities between Calvinism and Catholicism. They are quite different in many ways. However, I do see one thing as similar. Both traditions have a kind of claim to exclusivity (whether in holding the complete truth or in who God offers salvation to). I get the sense that people have a longing for someone to tell them that this is the most accurate truth, eg. Bible interpretation. I think God designed us to long for that exclusivity, so that we can *know* for sure of His promises and what He desires of us.

My experiences have been around the spectrum of Christianity, since I was raised in a Christian home of the Wesleyan (Methodist) tradition. I go to a Calvinist college, and my mother is studying Catholicism. There are many convincing arguments from all sides, but I am finding the Catholic ones (on other issues also) to be the most convincing. However, for a long time I was wondering whether Calvinism was right, because what about all those verses about predestination, election, etc.? It seemed like other churches simply brushed those verses under the carpet. But that tape series by Dr. Scott Hahn is the first in-depth, believeable answer that I have heard for the other side (the Catholic view as opposed to the Calvinist view).

I think that anyone who is a Calvinist or is considering Calvinism should listen to those tapes or something similar to give the opposing views a fair chance. Otherwise, it's like having a trial and hearing only one side of the story, then deciding the case based on that. That's why I'm looking for debate transcripts, especially among theologians who have studied this stuff and know from history and Bible study what they are talking about. I want to look at all sides and make a fair decision after considering all the evidence. Human nature's tendency is very tempting - to approach it with the view I want to hold or that I currently hold and try to back that up no matter what. But I think that is unwise, because God may show me something different in the future. I want to be open to God's leading right now rather than simply trying to tell God what I think is right.

Thanks and God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), January 20, 2004.

That must be awfully hard to do...to try and pick the truth I mean.

Instead, you should turn to your Father in heaven and ask Him to reveal it to you while in His Word.

Simply trust in His Son to save you--give your life over to Him and just ask Him to do with you as He wills.

He will guide you by the Holy Spirit when He knows you are sincere. His Word tells us to seek the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind, an He will reveal himself to you.

If pre-ordaination were true--a person couldn't even choose to do that much.

Let God's Word speak to you, and do it with believers who are free to study God's Word without threats of excommunication if they don't just believe what the hierarchy says.

Good luck Emily.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 21, 2004.

Scott Hahn is a joke!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 21, 2004.

Faith said, "That must be awfully hard to do...to try and pick the truth I mean."

My response: It's not that I'm merely trying to arbitrarily pick whatever seems best. I'm simply examining the evidence and giving it lots of prayer and asking others for counsel. It is hard, but God never said that the Christian walk was going to be easy. Where He leads, I will follow.

Faith said, "Instead, you should turn to your Father in heaven and ask Him to reveal it to you while in His Word. Simply trust in His Son to save you--give your life over to Him and just ask Him to do with you as He wills."

My response: Thanks for the great advice. That's what I have done and am continuing to do. This is where I believe God is leading me, after much study of His Word.

Faith said, "He will guide you by the Holy Spirit when He knows you are sincere. His Word tells us to seek the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind, an He will reveal himself to you."

My response: again, very similar to above. He is revealing Himself to me now more than ever, now that I am seeking Him out and desiring to learn.

Faith said, "If pre-ordaination were true--a person couldn't even choose to do that much."

My response: As for that, Calvinists say that people still (somehow) have free will, but it's kinda like an unexplainable mystery. I don't fully understand the doctrine, so I think if you want a response on that, you should ask someone who believes in it. Sorry I can't help there.

Faith said, "Let God's Word speak to you, and do it with believers who are free to study God's Word without threats of excommunication if they don't just believe what the hierarchy says."

My response: No one is threatening me. I think from what I've seen, there's more freedom in knowing the truth and having Christ's message passed along through the apostolic succession of the popes in Catholicism. Otherwise, the meaning of Scripture is well, your guess is a good as mine. It seems to me that Protestants must "try to pick the truth" as you said at the top more than Catholics do. Catholics are given the truth and can grow through it. All Protestants can really do is speculate or vote on it.

Like I said in my previous post, I'm studying to give Protestantism a fair chance, even though I am fairly convinced about Catholicism. Also, since I was/am a Protestant all my life (22 yrs), I expect to hear comments from concerned Protestant friends as to why I am converting. I want to be ready to give an answer about why and what God is showing me (1 Pet. 3:15), and as of now, I am not quite ready.

David, As for your comment, you are entitled to your own opinion, but please, if you are going to make such a comment, could you back it up by giving some kind of reason for what you're saying? I happen to think he is very intelligent and a respectable theologian.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.

Good Catholic - Protestant debates.

http://roamincat.tripod.com/ptm/apologists/bonocure/bonocure.html

-- John Miskell (RomanRite@aol.com), January 21, 2004.

f you really want to look into things, as you say...then perhaps you could ask yourself these few things:

Is eternal life an earned reward? Or is it the gift of God? It can't be both.

Whom will you trust to save your soul? Mary or Jesus?

The Catholic Church says that Mary is the *Refuge of Sinners* Catholics should surrender their souls at the hour of their death wholly to her care, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

By contrast, the Bible reveals that we should put our complete trust in Christ to save us. (Romans 10:8-13)

Where does the teaching of purgatory come from? You can look fron Genesis to Revelation and not find any hint that teaches there is a half-way place for those who need to suffer, pray their way to heaven, or wait for their family members to give enough money that their dearly departed can get out of purgatory sooner.

Perhaps, before this church's Fathers dreamed up this doctrine, they should have read Revelation 22:18.

What about the Assumption of Mary?

The Immaculate Conception?

The Mass?

Paul warns believers to be wary of strange new doctrines:

"As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you *have received,* let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:9)

Can you really find any of these Catholic doctrines in the teachings of the apostles from the New Testament times?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 22, 2004.

Roman Catechism:

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969

"Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Pg. 125, #494

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 22, 2004.

Faith are you also going down the list and make Methodists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Baptsists, Apostolics, and every other denomination make their justifications for their doctrine? Are you also going to make your justifications made about the "invisible church", of yours, based on Scriptures? Which faith system are you going to endorse and promote, if not your ex-Catholic church?

Do you think that you are being fair or just anti-Catholic with your isolationism against the Church?

Wouldn it be a fair deal if you simply promote your bias without the anti-Catholic basis of your advice? I know that you dislike the Church and can't pull your views out of that dislike. But, just promote what your faith system is.

If you are gonna debate the doctrine, then debate the doctrine. Don't leave us hanging with your "what ifs". If you can't find your Purgatory justifications, perhaps you should ask for them. I'm sure that a true Catholic can show you.

...................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 22, 2004.

rod, you are being anti-protestant. how's that?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 22, 2004.

Faith,

Thanks for your concern and these are things that I must consider, like I said. I do not know enough about some of these things to explain them, but I have read in other threads on the Catholic board where Gail mentioned references to purgatory when debating with you. I know that you know where they are, or are said to be at least.

Your bias shows, as Rod pointed out, but I guess I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. His also shows. It's a sign that you both are being sincere in your faiths. For me, I don't want to be sincere in my faith unless it is true (to the best of my ability to know), so that's why I'm seeking it out. It's good that you raise these issues - some I have never dealt with or heard of and some I have seen before. I want to be challenged with issues so that I can search them out. That is why I asked for debate transcripts. In reading the archives here and at the Catholic forum, I have found many debates in which I gained a perspective from both sides. However, there weren't really many that I saw debating issues of Calvinist theology, so that's partly why I'm looking for these too. And also since they would be respected theologians who have studied well and know their stuff.

As for "anti-Catholic" or "anti-Protestant," I would say those would mean anyone who considers the other party to be completely evil or that no person from the opposite group can ever attain salvation. There are many good Christian people and ministries on both sides, and to discredit them completely would be to discredit God's work. Because of their claims, either Protestants or Catholics must be deceived in some aspects of the truth, but God can still work through these people to do some good for His kingdom (Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.)

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), January 22, 2004.

www.aomin.org - James White, read some stuff on his site. He has some video debates if your interested in buying, or mp3 debates.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 22, 2004.

"Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word."

Would anybody be saved if Mary had chosen to say no? If you claim it doesn't matter then what you are doing is denying free will. And there can be no arguement that Mary could have chosen to say no.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

Just because Mary was "obedient" does NOT mean that she was the "cause of salvation" for the human race.

Mary had absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation.

If Mary would have declined, God would have chosen someone else.

Jesus is the cause of our salvation and NOT Mary.

Mary was a SINNER just like the rest of us for Jesus was the ONLY human being ever to walk this earth who was WITHOUT SIN.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 23, 2004.

Kevin says:

"If Mary would have declined, God would have chosen someone else."

Can you back that up with some scriptural references?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

I said, "If Mary would have declined, God would have chosen someone else."

To which James replied, "Can you back that up with some scriptural references?"

No, I cannot back it up with scriptural references, but don't you think that if Mary had in fact declined that (1) God would NOT have forced this decision upon her and (2) that He would have chosen someone else???

Obviously we don't have to worry about that because Mary obeyed God!!!

However, just because Mary obeyed God, and gave birth to our Saviour does NOT mean that she had any part in the salvation process. It was Jesus who died on the cross, Mary had NOTHING to do with it.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 23, 2004.

Do you all actually believe that God would ask someone He knew would refuse His will? I doubt it. God knew her answer, that's why He chose Mary. God doesn't make errors in judgement, action, or will.

...............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.

Did God choose Mary at Random to bring Jesus into the earth?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

We can't go around projecting our human nature into God's will. God knows men's hearts. God did not mess with Mary's free will; He knew her free will. We can't say that God had a choice like mortals betting on a horse. God has His divine nature, which we can't begin to understand.

......................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.

James, I understand your position on this; I'm really answering to Kevin. (...just in case my answer seemed abiguous.)

.....................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.

rod,

My question was directed more at Kevin, since Kevin seems to argue that it makes no difference who brought Jesus to earth. According to Kevin, it might as well have been Hitler. Well at least a female version of Hitler.

The more relevant question is why did God choose Mary for this task and did her level of holiness have anything to do with it? Kevin, says that if Mary said no, God would have chosen someone else. My question is whether there is or was anyone else who would have been willing to be an unwed mother in a culture where they stone women to death for adultery? Perhaps this is why she says that all generations will call her blessed.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), January 24, 2004.

Mary is called "blessed" because she OBEYED GOD. Luke 1:38 says, "Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word." Do you not think that Mary could have DECLINED the invititation by the angel Gabriel??? If you do believe this, then you are DENYING FREE WILL. Mary could have DECLINED, but we ALL KNOW she did no such thing.

Mary believed what God told her through Gabriel would happen (i.e. that she would have a child without "knowing a man") for her cousin Elizabeth said in Luke 1:45, "Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 24, 2004.