Divinity of Christ

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So is Christ half-God and half-man, or is He fully God and fully Man?
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 04, 2004

Answers

You know the answer to that question Gail.
Jesus is God.
The problem stems from your inability to understand my point--which is that Mary was mother of the flesh and blood Jesus...not of God.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

That's not exactly my question; let me be even more specific.
While Jesus was on earth, from the time of His conception until the time of His ascension, was He:
1) Half God and Half Man; or
2) FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN.
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 04, 2004.

Jesus is God, fully and completely Gail. And I never denied that.
But there are different natures of God...and when He humbled himself in the form of man--he gave up equality with God the Father for a time. He chose this. He became the Son.... He knew that when He rejoined the Godhead--he would recover his authority....
Even Paul from your forum agrees:
"Of course the human nature Jesus took upon Himself was not equal to the nature of God, and therefore "Jesus as man" was not the equal of God. However, the point which Faith cannot seem to grasp (no-one could simply from personal bible reading) is that Jesus, even while taking upon Himself an imperfect and inferior human nature, did not relinquish or compromise in any way His perfect, infinite, eternal divine nature. Therefore He was always and in every way GOD, and as such could not have been inferior to GOD in any way. He did not become something LESS than God by taking on human nature. He became something IN ADDITION to God. An additional, imperfect nature, freely accepted IN ADDITION to His complete and perfect divine nature. His divine nature was eternal. His human nature was not. The fact that his divine nature is eternal means that it always was and always will be. It could not be "set aside" or lessened in any way. The "nature" of an entity is immutable. If you change its nature in any way, it becomes something else. God has never for a moment been less than God, even when He became also a man."
I responded to Paul that I agreed, and that that didn't change my point--which is that Mary was only mother to the human side of Jesus the man....

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

Faith, this is what you said:
"I responded to Paul that I agreed, and that that didn't change my point--which is that Mary was only mother to the HUMAN SIDE of Jesus the man.... "
Then you said, "Jesus, the HUMAN SIDE, agonizes over his pending death, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Matt 26:39
Then you said, "Clearly, the above Scripture reveals that Jesus wants His heavenly glory back. He WAS LESS THAN the father while in human form. Mary was mother of that PART OF JESUS, THE HUMAN SIDE.
Then you said, "Jesus, the HUMAN SIDE, agonizes over his pending death, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Matt 26:39
******
The point is, Faith, that Christ is not divided into two halves. He is FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN! Again, Christ voluntarily gave up divine "attributes," not His "divine nature." His nature is not divided into a human SIDE and a God SIDE.
*******
Then with regard to the Christ's actual, physical, fleshly body, in which He ascended into heaven you say this:
Then you said, "Ah...but Jesus was raised immortal and incorruptable...for there is no place for flesh and bones in heaven. Jesus' NEW BODY WAS NOT EARTHLY OR FLESHLY."
Then you said, "Gail...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The fact that Thomas could touch Jesus' wound...says nothing about the spiritual quality of Jesus' presence. Do you think jesus was dripping in blood at that moment when Thomas touched him?
Then you said, "The Bible tells us that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. JESUS' RESURRECTED BODY WAS A SPIRITUAL BODY.., and that doesn't mean ghost, it just means that Jesus' raised body was not the same as it was while on earth. THERE IS NO BLOOD IN JESUS' glorified body."
Then you said, "Jesus DID NOT HAVE FLESH AND BLOOD when he ascended into heaven. He had an immortal body. Blood is necessarily corruptable."
Then you said, "So then we can all agree that WE WILL NOT BE HUMAN BEINGS ANYMORE?"
********
I am hoping that your Protestant brothers and sisters can at least help you with the nature of Christ, before, during and after the incarnation, and the physical nature of Christ at His ascension. These are not insignificant issues, they are ESSENTIAL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE. You can call me whatever names you want, but you are confused as to just WHO Jesus is.
And since you will not take any help from me a Catholic, I sincerely request that David help you with these issues.
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 04, 2004.

I believe the same thing.
I never said otherwise.
I just said that Mary is not the mother of God.
It is my belief as a protestant that jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time.
But that doesn't make Mary, mother of God.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

Sorry Gail., but I am not the one who needs help. I understand the nature of God, the nature of Jesus, and the nature of the Holy Spirit.
It is you who does not understand what I am saying.
Mary is the Mother of the flesh and blood Jesus...not His nature.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

Faith, if you believe as you stated above in the quotes I pulled, then you have a divided Christ; half God and half man. It is that simple. This has nothing to do with Mary, nor the creed that Jeanie posted. It only has to do with the nature of Christ.
His God/human nature is not divided into halves. His flesh and bone REAL body was ascended to heaven.
Are you now saying that you do not believe your own quotes?
Gail
P.S. BTW, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians ALL AGREE on the nature of Christ . . . He does not have a dual nature, nor a dual personality! He didn't leave His other half in heaven when He came to earth. He ascended into heaven in a glorified BODY, a real flesh and bones physical body.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 04, 2004.

Thanks Jeanie.....
It would seem that the Catholic creeds agree with me/us....
Where do their faithful get lost?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

Jeanie that is just plain illogical. The creature cannot be the mother of the creator! Mary was the mother Jesus, not Jehovah.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 04, 2004.

I'm sorry Jeanie..I thought you posted those creed to show that i was right. You even said that I have to use their own creeds against them.
When I read those creeds, I think...yes! See?
The second one you posted in particular..,agrees that the humanity side of jesus was less than God the Father. Even Jesus himself says that the disciples should be glad that he is returning to the Father because the Father is greater.
I agree that Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time--I just don't agree that Mary is mother to both.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

"I just don't agree that Mary is mother to both." Both what?
Hey, that's OUR Creed -- the one we read at mass every Sunday! YES!
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 04, 2004.

And here we have the 'sides' thing again. "The second one you posted in particular..,agrees THAT THE HUMANITY SIDE OF JESUS WAS LESS THAN GOD the Father.
Jesus does not have sides, Faith. He is 100% God and 100% man AT THE SAME TIME. He gave up divine ATTRIBUTES, but not His Divinity.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 04, 2004.

Both natures.., Gail.
Mary was not mother to both natures.
Mary only birthed the human nature...The nature of God and His divinity was present since before the creation of the world....including Jesus the Word...

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

Gail,
Mary is still not the mother of Jehovah. She is only the mother of the human side of Jesus.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 04, 2004.

Maybe if I highlight it for you:
He is God, eternally begotten from the nature of the Father, and he is man, born in time from the nature of his mother, fully God, fully man, with rational soul and human flesh,
equal to the Father as to his deity, less than the Father as to his humanity;
and though he is both God and Man, Christ is not two persons but one,
one, not by changing the deity into flesh, but by taking the humanity into God;
one, indeed, not by mixture of the natures, but by unity in one person;
for just as the rational soul and flesh are one human being, so God and man are one Christ. ****************************
Do you see how this becomes about Jesus...and sort of leaves Mary behind?
She mothered the humanity of Jesus...not the divinity.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

Jeanie..,
I know that those creeds didn't mean Roman Catholic. I am familiar with the little "c" in catholic because that was how it originated and it always only meant universal. It is a Christian creed--not belonging only to Roman Catholics.
Thanks.
We can agree on some matters : )

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

Jeanie.., with all do respect,
I have had enough of this argument from the Catholic site.
I simply have a different revelation from God on the matter.
Saying it over and over won't change what God has revealed to me on the subject.
Mary gave birth to the flesh and blood human infant.....whom God indwelled...

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

To set the record straight and then I'm out of here -- Catholics do not believe that Mary gave birth to Christ's divine nature. She gave birth to Jesus who was 100% man and 100% God -- not half man and half God.
True God from True God!
Gail
P.S. Definition: \Nes*to"ri*an\, n. (Eccl. Hist.) An adherent of Nestorius, patriarch of Constantinople to the fifth century, who was condemned as a heretic for maintaining that the divine and the human natures were NOT merged into one nature in Christ (who was God in man), and, hence, that it was improper to call Mary the mother of Christ; also, one of the sect established by the followers of Nestorius in Persia, india, and other Oriental countries, and still in existence. opposed to {Eutychian}.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 04, 2004.

Come on Jeanie...
Revelation comes through God's Word--with the Holy Spirit as our guide.
God talks to me through His Word...
You should know better...
But then, now I wonder...
Have you experienced re-birth in baptism?
Did the Holy Spirit come and are you changed? Are you a new creation in Christ?
Are you born-again?
You should understand about revelation if you are.
Is it real for you? Or do you just talk the talk without walking the walk??

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2004.

The Southern Baptist faith calls Nestorianism a heresy:
"Those who founded this institution were painfully and solemnly aware of the history of heresy which included Arianism, Nestorianism, Pelagianism, Socinianism--a parade of doctrinal deviation."
*****
Definition: \Nes*to"ri*an\, n. (Eccl. Hist.) An adherent of Nestorius, patriarch of Constantinople to the fifth century, who was condemned as a heretic for maintaining that the divine and the human natures were NOT merged into one nature in Christ (who was God in man), and, hence, that it was improper to call Mary the mother of Christ; also, one of the sect established by the followers of Nestorius in Persia, india, and other Oriental countries, and still in existence. opposed to {Eutychian}
I guess the Holy Spirit hasn't enlighted the Southern Baptists yet!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 04, 2004.

Gail,
On the topic of the resurrection of Jesus, yes he did had a glorified body. Exactly what Faith has been trying to tell you on the Catholic forum.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 05, 2004.

But Jesus is still a man, only in a glorified body and is in heaven right now. (Yes, he is still 100% God and 100% Man.)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 05, 2004.

Gail...until you can come to terms with the fact that you are misrepresenting what I have said.., I will end the conversation with you. I have no room for dishonest discourse. Your integrety is at question as far as I am concerned.
You have ignored my posts that clearly reveal that I beleve Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time. I believe Jesus is God. I simply have said that Mary did not birth God--she merely birthed the human baby Jesus--whom God indwells.
Until you can wrap your imagination around that--and see the *mystery* in that...then I am done with this.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2004.

Gail, what articles?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 05, 2004.

First of all, I had No say in the naming of this forum. Secondly, Jesus did rise physically. Jesus still has his human body and is in heaven right now. The only thing is, his body is a glorified body (and it doesn't have blood because he shed that blood on the cross). And Thirdly, no matter what you say, Mary did not give birth to Jehovah. Jehovah is the Creator, the Alpha and Omega. He has no begining and no end. Mary, on the otherhand, is a creature. The creature Cannot be the mother of the Creator. Mary was only mother of the humanity of Jesus. He got is divine nature from Jehovah.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 05, 2004.

Gail,
You keep telling Faith that she can't even get the nature of Christ right, and you call her (and somehow you added me into this) a Nestorian. If you say she can't even get Jesus' nature right, why is the moderator Paul correcting you?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 05, 2004.

Of course, Mary didn't give birth to JEHOVAH!! NO ONE BELIEVES THAT! She gave birth to Jesus Christ who is GOD the Son!
Jesus did not leave His divinity in heaven, come down to earth, and then go back up to heaven and take up His divinity.
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2004.

You should probably re-think this:
Jesus did not leave His divinity in heaven, come down to earth, and then go back up to heaven and take up His divinity.
After reading this:
Philippians 2:5-11 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! Therefore God exhalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
"You have heard me say , 'I am going away and I am coming back for you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to be with the Father, for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2004.

Faith, just to avoid any misunderstanding, or misrepresentation, please tell me exactly how you are interpretting these scriptures.
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2004.

In reading your quote of my post and reading the scripture you posted, it seems that you are saying that Christ was without His "divine nature" after His conception in the womb of Mary?
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2004.

David says:
"She is only the mother of the human side of Jesus."
Can you give some scriptures that support this?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), January 06, 2004.

Faith, you are beginning to sound like a Jehovah Witness. Tell us it isn't so.
................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 06, 2004.

James,
Read the bible. It is just illogical to say that the creature gave birth to the Creator.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 06, 2004.

Rod,
The Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus' is Michael the archangel.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 06, 2004.

Amen David!!!
To claim that Mary is the mother of God is just NOT what the Bible teaches.
If Mary is the "mother of God" as Catholics claim, then they ought to be able to provide the verse(s) that state that Mary gave birth to God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 06, 2004.

In Luke:
"Hail Mary, full of grace! the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."
If one believes that Jesus is God, then it is only logical to believe the above prayer. But, of course, it is crazy to say that Mary gave the beginning of God. God is and has no beginning nor end. So, the prayer/belief does not say that God began with Mary. Gave birth does not necessarily been to begin life. The Holy Spirit put Jesus in Mary's womb, but Jesus has always been and always will be.
...................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 06, 2004.

No, it is NOT logical to believe the prayer that was quoted, for this prayer was given by MEN and NOT by God.
If one holds to the belief that Mary gave birth to God, then they ought to be able to prove it from God's word!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 06, 2004.

Kevin are you not recognizing the belief that Jesus is God?
...........................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 06, 2004.

Yes rod, Jesus IS God however, Mary did NOT give birth to God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 06, 2004.

If one cannot accept the "Hail Mary" prayer, than how can one accept any man-made prayer? I think that you--Kevin--even reject the "Lord's Prayer" in the Catholic context.
..................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 06, 2004.

Then, what exactly happened with Mary if she didn't give "birth"?
What then is the definition of "birth" in this situation with Mary and Jesus?
Did she give birth to Christ or not?
.......................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 06, 2004.

If one cannot accept the "Hail Mary" prayer, than how can one accept any man-made prayer? I think that you--Kevin--even reject the "Lord's Prayer" in the Catholic context.
Mary is DEAD and CANNOT do anything, NOR does she know of anything that is going on in the earth. I reject ANYTHING that is Catholic because their doctrines are NOT taught in the word of God and those who refuse to see this are truly blind.
Then, what exactly happened with Mary if she didn't give "birth"?
I didn't say Mary didn't give birth now did I rod??? There you go again with your ILLOGICAL conclusions.
What then is the definition of "birth" in this situation with Mary and Jesus? Did she give birth to Christ or not?
Mary gave birth to Jesus, she did NOT give birth to God.
What purpose does it serve for Catholics to call Mary the "mother of God"???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 06, 2004.

Since Catholics claim that Mary is the "mother of God", I suppose that makes Joseph the "father of God" right??? If not, why not???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 06, 2004.

Since the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and impregnated her, does this make the Holy Spirit the "father of God"??? If not, why not???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 06, 2004.

Kevin, did you use a password or it the forum public?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 06, 2004.

Kevin, Joseph was the step-father of Jesus Christ, a/k/a God the Son!
So was Christ 100% God and 100% man at His conception? If so, did he remain so throughout his earthly life? I have heard suggestions that he left his divine nature in heaven, to take it up again later. Is that correct Protestant theology?
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 06, 2004.

David,
No, I did not have to use a password.
Gail,
You wrote, "So was Christ 100% God and 100% man at His conception?"
I don't have that answer and neither do you as the word of God does NOT specify this now does it Gail???
You wrote, "If so, did he remain so throughout his earthly life?"
I have stated that Jesus is God. What part of that statement do you not understand???
You wrote, "I have heard suggestions that he left his divine nature in heaven, to take it up again later. Is that correct Protestant theology?"
First, there is NO mention that Jesus "left his divine nature in heaven" in the word of God and I never said that He did. Second, I am NOT a "Protestant" and of course you know this now don't you Gail???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 06, 2004.

Jesus is mentioned in the bible as the "son of Joseph", NOT a "step-son" Gail. (See Luke 3:23).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 06, 2004.

Oh, so are you saying that Joseph was Jesus' father, and not the Holy Spirit?
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 06, 2004.

Joseph adopted Jesus basically. Adopted son's still call them "dad's" and the "dad" still calls him "son"

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 06, 2004.

Actually Kevin, it's not that I'm looking for THE non-Catholic answer to the divinity of Christ; I am actually looking for ANY coherent, Biblical response to the question of who Christ is and was at the time of conception, His birth, and ascension, and thus far, I have not received much of a response from David, Faith or you, that makes any sense biblically!
It would seem from your above post that you think Joseph was Christ's father. Don't you believe in the virgin birth? Don't you believe Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit? I call Joseph Jesus' step dad because he was not the biological father of Christ but raised Him as a son, much like what we would call a step-son in today's vernacular.
I did not realize this would be such a touchy subject. In fact, to be honest, I figured the two of you (David and you) would have strong doctrinal positions on this subject.
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 06, 2004.

Oh, so are you saying that Joseph was Jesus' father, and not the Holy Spirit?
No Gail, I did not say that now did I???
According to your Catholic logic, Mary is the "mother of God", so that also makes Joseph the "father of God", and the Holy Spirit the "father of God" and where does that leave God the father in the scheme of things???
Can't you see where your FAULTY (that Mary is the "mother of God") Catholic logic leads???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 06, 2004.

Hey Kevin, what you stated is not "Catholic" logic at all. You are the one who said Joseph was Jesus' father. I merely wanted you to expound on your statement.
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 07, 2004.

So was Jesus God at the moment of His conception?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 07, 2004.

This discussion seems like a rubick's cube problem. The cube is still a cube, but the matching of colors is the problem. How can Mary be the mother of Jesus--the birth--and Jesus be God--in the beginning--and still not concede that Mary gave "birth" to God? I'm not saying that God was started or given life by Mary. I'm saying that God allowed His human presence on earth, through birth, for all men to witness and experience Salvation through Jesus Christ. Had Christ not been born a man, ordinary man would have a difficult time accepting the entire Salvation plan.
I don't think that we are strictly confined to Catholic doctrine, here. So, let's not even say "Catholic" if that complicates things.
.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 07, 2004.

Gail wrote, "Hey Kevin, what you stated is not "Catholic" logic at all. You are the one who said Joseph was Jesus' father. I merely wanted you to expound on your statement."
Is Joseph the father of Jesus??? Yes or No??? All I want to you to do is give a simple answer. If he is not the father of Jesus, please explain how this is the case and why the Holy Spirit inspired the lineage of Joseph to be written down for us in the New Testament???
Gail wrote, "So was Jesus God at the moment of His conception?"
Did Mary have anything to do with Jesus (as God) at the moment of His conception??? When you answer this question in the negative, which is the only correct answer, then you will have your answer to the question, Is Mary the mother of God?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 07, 2004.

Uh, Mary had 3 things to do with "God"--the Trinity. The Holy Spirit, God the Father, and the Son Jesus Christ. If we deny this, we are then saying that Jesus was merely "exalted" and was never divine in the womb. This sounds way too radical to believe. Jesus is always divinity; that's my belief and I'm sticking with it.
.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 08, 2004.

Joseph is the adopted father of Jesus, not the biological father. If one believes that Joseph is the biological father, one is saying that the Immaculate Conception is false or inaccurate.
............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 08, 2004.

Virgin Birth

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 08, 2004.

further
St Luke 2:49,50:
".....Did you not know I must be about my father's business. And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them."
a) Joseph [and the Blessed Virgin] had a vey poor memory; OR
b) Jesus was about the business of someone other than Joseph.
[v. 51 dispels the notion that the "them" are the bystanders as opposed to Joseph and the Blessed Virgin.]

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 08, 2004.

Mary offered herself to God in humble obedience when the could have RAN! She gave birth to the Child Jesus. She nursed Him, nurtured Him, raised Him as a "Mother" would -- wiped His snotty nose, changed His dirty diapers. Did all the things "Mothers" do. It was Mary's egg that was fertilized at conception by the HOLY SPIRIT, NOT JOSEPH! So yes, BY ALL DEFINITIONS SHE IS CHRIST'S MOTHER.
Following your logic none of my children are really mine because they had a "father." What kind of nonsense is THAT!
Yes, she is Christ's mother, and Joseph is his adoptive father. One of the gospels lists Mary in the genealogy. Don't have time to look right now.
Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 08, 2004.

The prayer "Sub tuum Praesidium", first found in a Greek papyrus around 300, is directed at the Blessed Virgin.
"We turn to you for protection, holy Mother of God. Listen to our prayers and help us in our needs. Save us from every danger, glorious and blessed Virgin."
of course, we know better as we have the benefit of being a further 1,700 years away from when it all happened!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 08, 2004.

How about this one Gail...
If Mary is the mother of God, then Can God be her Father in heaven?
Or.., is Mary God's wife since she is the mother of God's Son., but then how could Mary be God wife and mother at the same time?%$#?..
If we simply hear the Word of God--then we hear that Mary was a humble maid-servant, chosen to bear the baby Jesus. She is Jesus's mother.
She is a child of God herself--all in the human respect.
She needs a Savior, and recognized as much. She is greatful and blessed that she could do God's will...as we all should be.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2004.

It's really really simple, Faith.
Jesus has two parents, one is Mary, one is God the Father. Likewise, God the Father and Mary have a son, His name is Jesus! He was conceived of the Holy Spirit while in the womb of Mary. That means her egg was "fertilized" (so to speak) by the Holy Spirit in the womb. That is the moment the human egg united with divinity, and nine months later we have Jesus a/k/a God the Son. He was God the Son in the womb. He was God the Son out of the womb.
Gail
P.S. Hope you get your computer going soon!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 08, 2004.

I really like my son's computer--it is so big...easy on the eyes. And it goes so fast. No wonder he doesn't want me using it. He wants to keep it running smoothly.,lol!
But anyway., I have but a few minutes to post, and then I won't be back on 'till tomorrow.
You didn't answer my question:
How can Mary be God's mother and wife and yet be married to Joseph and be a sinner herself etc...
Seems like we are trying to fit a round Mary into a square peg. Or better--it seems like we are giving Mary too many roles here. We should make up our minds.
Frankly.., I think she is exactly who the Bible says she is. She is a humble maid-servant, chosen to give birth to the baby Jesus.
Mary remained human., and stayed behind after Jesus left. That is as much as the Bible reveals.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2004.

this boils down to:
how can someone create their own mother. ie God made the universe. Mary included. but she is His mother. how can she be mother.
well, that is hard to comprehend; but it is in Scripture. see eg St Luke 1:42-4. and, just because you don't understand it, well: i would love to bring people back from the dead, give sight to the blind, and so on.
these are the mysteries.
the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God. this has been accepted since the first times. eg St Irenaeus in 189.
that is "faith".

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 09, 2004.

After 3 weeks of vacation I am back. Happy New Year to you all.
In going back to the original question : Is Jesus half-God or half man, or is he fully God or fully man?
None of them.
Most people (90 % plus) come into this world as normal human beings without a purpose for life. These are the fully human.
These are the ones who need direction for salvation since they don't have a salvation plan inbedded at birth.
None of you (Kevin, Gail, Rod, David, Ian, Faith) hold this belief nor do I.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 14, 2004.

There are those who believe God adopted Jesus at his baptism.They quote Mark 1: Mar 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
This was the view of Paul of Samosata, Bishop of Antioch. As mentioned by Eusebius in Book 7: CHAPTER 27 Paul of Samosata, and the Heresy introduced by hint at Antioch
After Xystus had presided over the church of Rome for eleven years, Dionysius, namesake of him of Alexandria, succeeded him. About the same time Demetrianus died in Antioch, and Paul of Samosata received that episcopate. As he held, contrary to the teaching of the Church, low and degraded views of Christ, namely, that in his nature he was a common man, Dionysius of Alexandria was entreated to come to the synod. ....... For to anticipate something of what we shall presently write, he is unwilling to acknowledge that the
Son of God has come down from heaven. And this is not a mere assertion, but it is abundantly proved from the records which we have sent you; and not least where he says 'Jesus Christ is from below.'

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 14, 2004.

There is also a view which applies to less than 10% of humanity.
These are the ones predestined for something special. Examples in the Bible:
Moses (to save the Jews from Egypt), Samuel(as a prophet and to give his mom confort in having a son), Hezekiah (to rule in times of trouble),Jeremiah (to warn the people about being exiled, see Jer 1 ), Cyrus (to return the Jews out of Babilonia), Alexander the Great (see daniel, to spread Greek language), John the Baptist (to prepare The Way, see Isaiah 40 ,Malachi, and Luke 1),Jesus *(to show people the way of Salvatio, see Isaiah 53),...
This view is that of the Ebionites, the followers of James, the brother of Jesus after the break beteen Jewish followers of Jesus and Gentile Christians followers of Paul.
For the Ebionites who could know Jesus better than his own family (mother, brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts). That is why they rejected paul and his letters.
As to whether Jesus had brothers see Mark 3 and 6 Mar 3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. James , Jesus brother was influential in the early church, being the one in charge of the Jerusalem Church.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Paul had problems with James, especially about foods and circumcision. he even had to scold Peter and Barnabas. Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Jesus other brother, Jude(Judas) was also active:
Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ,
Eusebius mentions them in book 3: CHAPTER 27 The Heresy of the Ebionites The evil demon, however, being unable to tear certain others from their allegiance to the Christ of God, yet found them susceptible in a different direction, and so brought them over to his own purposes. The ancients quite properly called these men Ebionites, because they held poor and mean opinions concerning Christ. For they considered him a plain and common man, who was justified only because of his superior virtue, and who was the fruit of the intercourse of a man with Mary. In their opinion the observance of the ceremonial law was altogether necessary, on the ground that they could not be saved by faith in Christ alone and by a corresponding life. There were others, however, besides them, that were of the same name, but avoided the strange and absurd beliefs of the former, and did not deny that the Lord was born of a virgin and of the Holy Spirit. But nevertheless, inasmuch as they also refused to acknowledge that he pre-existed, being God, Word, and Wisdom, they turned aside into the impiety of the former, especially when they, like them, endeavored to observe strictly the bodily worship of the law. These men, moreover, thought that it was necessary to reject all the epistles of the apostle, whom they called an apostate from the law; and they used only the so-called Gospel according to the Hebrews and made small account of the rest. The Sabbath and the rest of the discipline of the Jews they observed just like them, but at the same time, like us, they celebrated the Lord's days as a memorial of the resurrection of the Saviour. Wherefore, in consequence of such a course they received the name of Ebionites, which signified the poverty of their understanding. For this is the name by which a poor man is called among the Hebrews.
My belief is closer to theirs when it comes to Jesus being sent to Earth for a purpose.
I believe Joseph was his real human father, not his adoptive father.
Why? because the Ebionites like any Jews of their days and even today find it abhorrent to think God could commit adultery by taking someone elses's wife.
David taking the wife of Uriah the Hittite comes to mind. God is said to have destroyed the child of that union because it was the product of adultery.
2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
I mention this also because Kevin opened a pandorax box when he said, in reply as to Mary being the mother of God by Rod and Gail, he says can Joseph also be the father of God?
This leads to can God be the father of God?
This cannot be possible.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 14, 2004.

Elpidio,
This is the very reason we have many denominations.....it's because people like you pick and choose what to believe in the bible. You CANNOT escape the fact that Jesus DID claim to be God. He is either Lord, Liar or Lunatic. And don't give me none of this "Holy Spirit doesn't know Greek well enough and mistranslated" defense. There is no mistake, the majority of bible versions/manuscripts all agree that Jesus is God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 14, 2004.

100 Truths About Jesus
Jesus claimed to be God - John 8:24; 8:56-59 (see Exodus 3:14); John 10:30-33
Jesus is called God - John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8
Jesus is the image of the invisible God - Heb. 1:3
Jesus abides forever - Heb. 7:24
Jesus created all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17
Jesus is before all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:17;
Jesus is eternal - John 1:1,14; 8:58; Micah 5:1-2
Jesus is honored the same as the Father - John 5:23
Jesus is prayed to - Acts 7:55-60; 1 Cor. 1:2 with Psalm 116:41; (John 14:14)
Jesus is worshipped - Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6
Jesus is omnipresent - Matt. 18:20; 28:20
Jesus is with us always - Matt. 28:20
Jesus is our only mediator between God and ourselves - 1 Tim. 2:5
Jesus is the guarantee of a better covenant - Heb. 7:22; 8:6
Jesus said, "I AM the Bread of Life" - John 6:35,41,48,51
Jesus said, "I AM the Door" - John 10:7,9
Jesus said, "I AM the Good Shepherd" - John 10:11,14
Jesus said, "I AM the Way the Truth and The Life" - John 14:6
Jesus said, "I AM the Light of the world" - John 8:12; 9:5; 12:46; Luke 2:32
Jesus said, "I AM the True Vine" - John 15:1,5
Jesus said, "I AM the Resurrection and the Life" - John 11:25
Jesus said, "I AM the First and the Last" - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13
Jesus always lives to make intercession for us - Heb. 7:25
Jesus cleanses from sin - 1 John 1:9
Jesus cleanses us from our sins by His blood - Rev. 1:5; Rom. 5:9
Jesus forgives sins - Matt. 9:1-7; Luke 5:20; 7:48
Jesus saves forever - Matt. 18:11; John 10:28; Heb. 7:25
Jesus discloses Himself to us - John 14:21
Jesus draws all men to Himself - John 12:32
Jesus gives eternal life - John 10:28; 5:40
Jesus resurrects - John 5:39; 6:40,44,54; 11:25-26
Jesus gives joy - John 15:11
Jesus gives peace - John 14:27
Jesus has all authority - Matt. 28:18; John 5:26-27; 17:2; 3:35
Jesus judges - John 5:22,27
Jesus knows all men - John 16:30; John 21:17
Jesus opens the mind to understand scripture - Luke 24:45
Jesus received honor and glory from the Father - 1 Pet. 1:17
Jesus reveals grace and truth - John 1:17 see John 6:45
Jesus reveals the Father - Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22
Jesus bears witness of Himself - John 8:18; 14:6
Jesus' works bear witness of Himself - John 5:36; 10:25
The Father bears witness of Jesus - John 5:37; 8:18; 1 John 5:9
The Holy Spirit bears witness of Jesus - John 15:26
The multitudes bear witness of Jesus - John 12:17
The Prophets bear witness of Jesus - Acts 10:43
The Scriptures bear witness of Jesus - John 5:39
The Father will honor us if we serve Jesus - John 12:26 see Col. 3:24
The Father wants us to fellowship with Jesus - 1 Cor. 1:9
The Father tells us to listen to Jesus - Luke 9:35; Matt. 17:5
Everyone who's heard & learned from the Father comes to Jesus - John 6:45
We come to Jesus - John 5:50; 6:35,37,45,65; 7:37;
The Father draws us to Jesus - John 6:44
The Law leads us to Christ - Gal. 3:24
Jesus is the Rock - 1 Cor. 10:4
Jesus is the Savior - John 4:42; 1 John 4:14
Jesus is the King - Matt. 2:1-6; Luke 23:3
In Jesus are the treasures of wisdom and knowledge - Col. 2:2-3
In Jesus we have been made complete Col. 2:10
Jesus indwells us - Col. 1:27
Jesus sanctifies - Heb. 2:11
Jesus loves - Eph. 5:25
We sin against Jesus - 1 Cor. 8:12
We receive Jesus - John 1:12; Col. 2:6
Jesus makes many righteous - Rom. 5:19
Jesus sends the Holy Spirit - John 15:26
Jesus offered up Himself - Heb. 7:27; 9:14
Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for all time - Heb. 10:12
The Son of God has given us understanding - 1 John 5:20
Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith - Heb. 12:2
Jesus is the Apostle and High Priest of our confession - Heb. 1:3
Jesus is preparing a place for us in heaven - John 14:1-4
Jesus is the Light of the world - Rom. 9:5
Jesus has explained the Father - John 1:18
Jesus was crucified because of weakness - 2 Cor. 13:4
Jesus has overcome the world - John 16:33
Truth is in Jesus - Eph. 4:21
The fruit of righteousness comes through Jesus Christ - Phil. 1:11
Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come - 1 Thess. 1:10
Disciples bear witness of Jesus Christ - John 15:27
Jesus died for us - 1 Thess. 5:10
Jesus died and rose again - 1 Thess. 4:14
Jesus was a ransom for many - Matt. 20:28
The Christian dead have fallen asleep in Jesus - 1 Thess. 4:15
Jesus tasted death for everyone - Heb. 2:9
Jesus rendered the devil powerless - Heb. 2:14
Jesus is able to save completely - Heb. 7:25
Jesus came to serve - Matt. 20:28
Jesus came to be a high priest - Heb. 2:17
Jesus came to save - John 3:17; Luke 19:10
Jesus came to preach the kingdom of God - Luke 4:43
Jesus came to bring division - Luke 12:51
Jesus came to do the will of the Father - John 6:38
Jesus came to give the Father's words - John 17:8
Jesus came to testify to the truth - John 18:37
Jesus came to die and destroy Satan's power - Heb. 2:14
Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets - Matt. 5:17
Jesus came to give life - John 10:10,28
Jesus came to taste death for everyone - Heb. 2:9
Jesus came to proclaim freedom for believers - Luke 4:18
From CARM
100 Truths About Jesus

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 14, 2004.

If Jesus is not God, then explain...
Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically.)
Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1,14)?
Why is the phrase "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?
Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was , "...calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God," (John 5:18)?
What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God.
How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)?
How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?
How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?
How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?
How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?
How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?
How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)?
How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?
How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?
How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and "God" also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21?
How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?
How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)?
How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?
Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)
In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58.
Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.
Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?
Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?
Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 14, 2004.

I haven't met people who believe Jesus is half human and half God.
Truly human and truly divine was accepted in 451 AD. in Europe. They had accepted Mary being the mother of God by 431 AD in opposing Nestorius view of Mary being Theotokos..
In the East they accepted only his divinity. They were called by that reason Monophosites. Today most of these churches accept both.
Protestants also do. Yet, in the case of Mary, they prefer Nestorius view of mary being Theotokos (God bearing) than Meter Theos, Mother of God.
That is why, to me, all of you sound the same: trinitarians.
In assuming that Jesus could be God himself, one that has to ask?
Can the energy(light) of God (Yahweh) be contained by the human flesh of the one we know as Jesus?
First, God's light covered a bush to make it appear to Moses the Bush was burning. Thus, the Bush could not contain God's light. Exd 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed. Exd 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. Exd 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I. Exd 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground. Exd 3:6 Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Second, When Moses talked to God his face was shining. Exd 34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him. ..... Exd 34:33 And [till] Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face. Exd 34:34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel [that] which he was commanded. Exd 34:35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
Third, when Jesus, like Moses went up a mountain with 3 of his disciples, his body was also shining, like that of Moses. This had not happened to Jesus before. Many interpret this as proof of Jesus being God.
The problem with this assertion is that the disciples hear a voice, one which did not come from Jesus lips. The voice calls Jesus his son. Thus, God was talking to him also.
This voice is the same voice heard by John the Baptist when he baptizes Jesus. Mark 1 Mar 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Notice how the Spirit descends, that is, in wasn't inside or part of Jesus if Jesus is to be the same as the Holy Spirit.
Also notice that the voice again calls from Heaven. It wasn't Jesus voice. So Jesus cannot be God the Father(Yahweh).
As to the Holy spirit again being Jesus, again Mark 1 says: Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Here, John equates water with the Holy Spirit (In Hebrew ruach Ha Kodesh means Holy wind also since ruach is wind.)
Thus, Holy Spirit cannot be Jesus since Jesus could not take pieces out of himself and give them to the people.
What makes Jesus different to Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, people who also did miracles? Only Jesus was pre-ordained by God(yahweh) and is als called God's Son.
Isaiah 53 is the only scripture from the old testament that best fits Jesus life.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Even this passage shows the prophet distinguishing the Lord (Yahweh) from the servant (Jesus).
Thus, in conclusion, Jesus never was God, neither was he the Holy spirit. He was the one pre-ordained foer our salvation.
Neither was he adopted by God after his baptism.
As paul says in 1 Romans 3: Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Thus, Jesus was the Son and had to be the son of Joseph.
To me all the confusion about his divinity started with the mistranslation of Almah in Isaiah 7:14 by virgin insrtead of its proper hebrew translation Young woman.
This created the fabrication of false books like the Protoevangelium of James which shos Mary being born also miraculously.
As the Church became a gentile Church, Jesus becmae God, since even the Roman Emperors were given divine status.
The rest is history.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
All of my quotations were from the Blue Bible
Your brother in Christ The Man of yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 14, 2004.

"Theotokos", hmmm, sounds Greek Orthodox, yes?
I happen to have a small facsimile metal painting of the Theotokos. I suppose that image is much easier to understand. I also have the other "Catholic" images of Mary and Infant Jesus. Plus, La Virgen de Guadalupe and Fatima. Also, the "Protestant" painting of Christ, the "Catholic Sacred Heart", and the less accepted images of the "Black Christ" are in my collections. Uh, they all portray Christ with long hair, David.
.....................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 14, 2004.

I will not respond to the 100 but to the reasons you give, David Ortiz 2 or 3 at a time at a time.
Your first 2: If Jesus is not God, then explain...
Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically.) Answered by Jesus: Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Jesus calls God his God, David. Thus, he is not God.
Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
Answer: In the Greek Septuagint not in the Hebrew, David. Psalms Chapter 45 � �� -��, ��-��; ��, �� . 1 For the Leader; upon Shoshannim; [a Psalm] of the sons of Korah. Maschil. A Song of loves. � �� , �� -- �� , �� ; ��, �� . 2 My heart overfloweth with a goodly matter; I say: 'My work is concerning a king'; {N} my tongue is the pen of a ready writer. ...� ��, ��: ��, �� ; ��, �� . 6 Thine arrows are sharp--the peoples fall under thee--[they sink] into the heart of the king's enemies. � �� , �� ; �� , �� . 7 Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom. � �� , ��-��: ��-�� , �� -- ��. 8 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; {N} therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.stringed instruments have made thee glad. ... � �� , ��; �� , �� . 10 Kings' daughters are among thy favourites; at thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir
The sons of Korah lived at the time of solomon. Most likely solomon is the one of whom they are talking.
Also note it doesn't say your throne oh God, David.
Once before you said the Catholics perverted the scriptures. Could it be possible they also altered biblical texts in Greek to suit their beliefs about Jesus being God?
David, take a look at Jerome the translator of the Bible and Augustine, the one who introduced the theology of Original sin and infant Baptism .
This letter, classified as # 71 from Augustine to Jerome, Augustine tells Jerome to follow the greek Septuagint istead of the Hebrew.
3. In this letter I have further to say, that I have since heard that you have translated Job out of the original Hebrew, although in your own translation of the same prophet from the Greek tongue we had already a version of that book. In that earlier version you marked with asterisks the words found in the Hebrew but wanting in the Greek, and with obelisks the words found in the Greek but wanting in the Hebrew; and this was done with such astonishing exactness, that in some places we have every word distinguished by a separate asterisk, as a sign that these words are in the Hebrew, but not in the Greek. Now, however, in this more recent version from the Hebrew, there is not the same scrupulous fidelity as to the words; and it perplexes any thoughtful reader to understand either what was the reason for marking the asterisks in the former version with so much care that they indicate the absence from the Greek version of even the smallest grammatical particles which have not been rendered from the Hebrew, or what is the reason for so much less care having been taken in this recent version from the Hebrew to secure that these same particles be found in their own places. I would have put down here an extract or two in illustration of this criticism; but at present I have not access to the manuscript of the translation from the Hebrew. Since, however, your quick discernment anticipates and goes beyond not only what I have said, but also what I meant to say, you already understand, I think, enough to be able, by giving the reason for the plan which you have adopted, to explain what perplexes me.
4. For my part, I would much rather that you would furnish us with a translation of the Greek version of the canonical Scriptures known as the work of the Seventy translators. For if your translation begins to be more generally read in many churches, it will be a grievous thing that, in the reading of Scripture, differences must arise between the Latin Churches and the Greek Churches, especially seeing that the discrepancy is easily condemned in a Latin version by the production of the original in Greek, which is a language very widely known; whereas, if any one has been disturbed by the occurrence of something to which he was not accustomed in the translation taken from the Hebrew, and alleges that the new translation is wrong, it will be found difficult, if not impossible, to get at the Hebrew documents by which the version to which exception is taken may be defended. And when they are obtained, who will submit, to have so many Latin and Greek authorities: pronounced to be in the wrong? Besides all this, Jews, if consulted as to the meaning of the Hebrew text, may give a different opinion from yours: in which case it will seem as if your presence were indispensable, as being the only one who could refute their view; and it would be a miracle if one could be found capable of acting as arbiter between you and them.
Now, David, you understand why I want you to study Hebrew and Greek Koine and attic after graduation from High School?
Because the Bible wasn't written in King James' English.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 14, 2004.

This quotation of letter 71 is from the New Advent library.http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102071.htm
the Hebrew is from the 1917 translation of the Masoretic text by Mechon Mamre.http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm
Your brother in Christ The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 14, 2004.

Answers to Questions from david:
Question#3)Why does the writer of john use the word "word" Greek Logos, David, because logos is in Hebrew Dabar, theat is 'word'. He thought of Jesus as Dabar. The scriptures always says that God sends his word:
Exd 6:2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I [am] the LORD: English Strong's Hebrew (Root form) Tense (Click on any item below for Concordance) (Click) And God [0430] 'elohiym spake [01696] dabar (Greek-elalesen, as a verb, logos as a noun) unto Moses, [04872] Mosheh and said [0559] 'amar unto him, I [am] the LORD: [03068] Y@hovah
See a silmilar constructio in Matthew Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
English Strong's Greek (Root form) Tense (Click on any item below for Concordance) (Click) But [1161] de while he [846] autos thought on [1760] enthumeomai these things, [5023] tauta behold, [2400] idou the angel [32] aggelos of the Lord [2962] kurios (Here Kurios refers to Yahweh) appeared [5316] phaino unto him [846] autos in [2596] kata a dream, [3677] onar saying, [3004] lego (see dabar in Hebrew as lego in Greek) Joseph, [2501] Ioseph thou son [5207] huios of David, [1138] Dabid fear [5399] phobeo not [3361] me
unto thee [4675] sou to take [3880] paralambano See John 1 for the use of Logos: In [1722] en the beginning [746] arche was [2258] en the Word, [3056] logos (see logos in Greek) and [2532] kai the Word [3056] logos was [2258] en with [4314] pros God, [2316] theos and [2532] kai the Word [3056] logos was [2258] en God. [2316] theos
Can you see logos in Greek has the meaning Dabar as in Hebrew, David? The writer compares Jesus as the word of Yahweh. A man is as good as his word, yet the word doesn't make the man (translation: Jesus the word is the Christ, but not Yahweh himself).
Answer to Question #4: In response to your question why Jesus is called Kurios, because of Isaiah 45.
Isaiah 45 refers to Cyrus, not Jesus. Cyrus is also called Christ, that is, anointed. The gospels, Acts, and Paul refer always to Isaiah. They found the words they needed there to refer to Jesus the Nazorean (as was called early in Acts) as the Kurios and the Christ (used before for King Cyrus the Great who freed the Jews from Babylonia). Isaiah 45
Thus saith [0559] 'amar the LORD [03068] Y@hovah to his anointed, [04899] mashiyach ( Greek Christos ) to Cyrus, [03566] Kowresh (Greek Kurios) whose right hand [03225] yamiyn I have holden, [02388] chazaq to subdue [07286] radad nations [01471] gowy before [06440] paniym him; and I will loose [06605] pathach the loins [04975] mothen of kings, [04428] melek to open [06605] pathach before [06440] paniym him the two leaved gates; [01817] deleth and the gates [08179] sha`ar shall not be shut; [05462] cagar

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 15, 2004.

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