I didn't write this, but I think it raises some good points...

Dominion over Kings?

The last identifying characteristic that John was given concerning the woman astride the beast was that she was a city "which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (Revelation 17:18).

Could there be a city that actually reigns over the governments of the world? History bears witness that there was indeed such a city, and only one.

That city was, of course, Rome, after its bishops began to call themselves popes and, claiming to be the successors of the Ceasars, took it upon themselves the imperial powers of worldwide sovereignty.

Consider, for example, the arrogant imperialism of Pope Alexander III (1159-81). Declaring that "the power of the popes is superior to that of princes," Alexander excommunicated Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor, King of Germany and Italy. Attempting to chastise the pope, Frederick's forces were defeated by the pope's army.

The chastened emperor came to Venice to beg for forgiveness and absolution, promising to: "submit always to the Roman Church." Imagine a church ruling the world by military might!!

Fortunatus Ulmas, a Catholic historian, enthusiastically described the scene:

When the emperor arrived in the presense of the pope, he laid aside his imperial mantle, and knelt on both knees, with his breast on the earth. Alexander advanced and placed his foot on his neck, while the cardinals thundered forth in loud tones, "Thou shalt tread upon the cockatrice, and crush the lion and the dragon."...

The next day Frederick Barbarossa...kissed the feet of Alexander, and, on foot, led his horse by the bridle as he returned from solemn mass, to the pontifical palace...

The papacy had now risen to a height of grandeur and power which it had never reached before. The sword of Peter had conquered the sword of Ceasar!

But as a swordsman, Peter had been signally inept: Aiming to cut off a head, he had instead severed an ear. Christ rebuked His erring disciple., healed the ear, and then allowed the armed band to lead Him captive on His way to the cross.

The early church knew full well that Christians did not weild sword or spear in defense of Christ. His kingdom, which is "not of this world," must first be established in the hearts of those who believe in Him as the Savior who died for their sins. These true disciples follow in His path of rejection, suffering and death.

Here is the question:

How then did those who called themselves vicars of Christ reach such a worldly pinnacle whereby they could command emperors, defeat their armies with a sword, and place a foot upon the neck of a vanquished sovereign??

-- Faith (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2004

Answers

Bunkum

Apocalypse 17:18 "And the woman which thou sawest, is the great city, which hath kingdom over the kings of the earth."

try Washington.

or does that sound really really silly?

i think it does.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 01, 2004.

Your point Ian?

The woman is clearly a religious entity--some say it is Catholic Mary who represents this false New World religion. The city? Vatican City....Rome..,of course! Which, by-the-way, sits on seven hills.....and yes., Rome has had dominion over many kings. Prophecy suggests that this empire will be revived.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 01, 2004.

the point, Faith, is that Washington is the country that has most dominion in the world we live in, but i would consider myself very foolish if i were to suggest that the Apocalypse referred to Washington.

do you get it now?

PS what did the Mother of God do to you to make you hate her so?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 01, 2004.

Understand one thing Ian--I do not hate the Mother of Jesus. Biblical Mary and the Catholic Church's Mary--are *not* the same person.

There is also a big difference between the Church having dominion over kings and a secular city doing that.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 01, 2004.

First of all, the Roman Empire fell in approximately 476 AD. The Evil Empire had world dominion at that time and was an arch-type of the World Dominion to come, under the control of Satan.

If you read anything at all in the news today, you see that kingdoms are "merging" together for the purpose of gaining control and power. You see the microchip (or VeriChip) is being used even now in THIS COUNTRY. Did you know, for instance, that the European Union has a statue of a woman riding a beast in front of its headquarters?

Here is an excellent website (probably Protestant) that depicts the many symbols that the European Union is using RIGHT NOW that mock Christianity and in fact are using the "Woman Riding the Beast" as its emblem.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/european_union.html#Woman%20adn% 20Beast

I believe that the European Union along with all of the nations of the world will one day gather under one "lord." We see the "set-up" of that right now. Scary stuff.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 01, 2004.

I agree that the European Union can be the begining of this One World Order--or revived Roman Empire. But there will be a necessary religious element that will also become a strong part of this union-- and in fact., take it over.., for a time. This union will suit Satan for a time--until he decides she is no longer useful. Religion and government in cahoots together....history repeating itself??

Isn't the Pope already very busy trying to unite everyone under one banner? Will an apostate church rule this revived government?

I really have no idea--but is the Roman Catholic Church involved in the European Union at this time?

Revelation describes the Woman--which is the religious aspect--riding the beast--which is the revived government. It is a temporary partnership....

I do find it odd that there is already a statue depicting the woman on the beast...since it hasn't happened yet.

But there needs to be a religious connection to this woman--she is guilty of the blood of the marytrs and she once had the voice of the bridegroom and the bride in her.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 01, 2004.

Faith,

I hope you don't mind me sending this to you privately but I wanted to share this with you off-line. (Okay, so I'm a little paranoid)

Not only does the EU have a statue of this "thing," but there it has become the European symbol. They have credit cards with this image on it! Phone cards, etc.

The world is not going to stand for any Christian symbolism as its "lead" unless it is to MOCK Christianity. That is what is happening now. Did you know that the building that is now the headquarters of the EU was designed to look like a 16th century painting of the "Tower of Babel"? I've seen pictures of it, but they are VERY HARD to find on the Internet. (I wonder why)

The person who heads up this New World Order will be "secular" and humanism will be the religion. Humanism is the religion of our own country. Take a look at what is happening. Christianity is under major assault in this country, what with the purging of all things "Bible" from our system. Next our money will be purged, our government buildings will have to be sandblasted of any scripture.

I saw on the news the other day (that ribbon that runs on the bottom of your screen across all the major networks) that a Muslim man is suing JPII and Cardinal Ratzinger for insisting that Christianity is superior to all religions!

Just think about it, Faith, the Church will not be able to be part of any "Union" as long as Christ is the central figure and we claim Christianity as superior to all other religions.

I know that the Vatican is a UN "observer" only and is NOT a member. I'm not sure about the EU. I don't doubt that there are those in the Vatican that would DEARLY LOVE for the RC to take a lead role, but the Church is not going to change creeds that are 2,000 + years. NO WAY can they do that, because if they ever did, they would simply cease to be Catholic. The creeds are the glue that hold the Church together. They cannot recant ANY OF THEM.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 01, 2004.

Thanks Gail..,

I will look at the link you provided me. Certainly I do not mind that you e-mailed me. Without having looked at the site yet, I have a feeling it pertains to freemasonry?

There are some theories about their involvement in the endtimes....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2004.

sorry to blow away another conspiracy theory, but the odds of religion playing a role in the EU is nil.

the French (lapsed Catholics) are very much for separation of state and church, a la USA. the Germans and British are mainly non- practising protestants. the Italians are run by a fascist atheist.

Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Poland, Croatia, the Catholic countries, are too small and/or poor to make an impact.

add to that the possible entry of Moslem Turkey, the growth of the Moslem population in Europe (esp France).

the Pope will try to bring an agenda to the EU, but the odds of abortion or divorce or contraception being outlawed are simply nil. he will remain a powerful pastoral force within the EU, but that's really about it.

i think that it is very easy to play on the so-called "super-power" emerging in Europe, but however big it gets there will only ever be one super power - that's Uncle Sam. if you believe it is LITERALLY necessary for there to be a country that has dominion over Kings, look at Uncle Sam. its the only one, and is likely to remain the only one.

add into the cocktail, the President that pushes his christian agenda, and you have the religious aspect.

i for one do NOT accept for one second that there is any connection between the Apocalypse and the US/ Bush. however, you must see that these conspiracy theories abound everywhere. before that, there were other Empires. eg Napolean Bonaparte.

if you chose to believe in one, that's your look out.

The real short answer to this is that, whilst Catholics are not required to adopt any particular interpretation of the Apocalypse, it would, however, be truly consistent with the book to argue that the prophesy came true when the Roman Empire was crushed -- BTW, by the Catholic Church. Rome is clearly described. pagan worship. the flurry of false prophets in the aftermath of Our Lord's time here. the role of the Emperors that made themselves gods. the use of the currency of the ROman Empire. that's all consistent with the Apocalypse.

the rest of the prophesy, that is covered in other Scripture, confirms the Second Coming in any event. we just don't know when.

anyways, when a website uses material written by Ian Paisley, as the one mentioned above does, its time to go log-off.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 02, 2004.

Don't forget Ian--that the end times are not yet.

There is still plenty of time for the apostate church to rise up and be more evil than ever.

Maybe its not going to be the Roman Catholic Church--exactly.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2004.

you have absolutely no basis for these beliefs but you keep going and going -- as if this is what you want to believe.

i have offered you the most plausible, and the most widely accepted (theologians, others - generally no vested interest), interpretation.

you have no basis to reject it, do you (if so, pls share)? but you chose to do so because it suits you.

do you consider that the references in the Apocalypse resemble the crumbling of the Roman Empire BY COINCIDENCE??? well, what a coincidence, i'd say.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 02, 2004.

Excuse me Ian..,

You have offered me what?

You are incoherant.

I can't even understand this last post.

I base my beliefs in Scripture. The Bible absolutely describes an apostate One World Religion that is destroyed in the end times. An entity that is in cahoots with Satan. Thus the Woman on the Beast.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2004.

Faith, this will make it easier:

1 there is a very very plausible explanation for the prophesy in the Apocalypse. the fall of the Roman Empire. i outline it above. please remember that it is a miracle of the Catholic Church that it made it through these times, given the amount of persecution (by Romans and Jews) and the fale prophets etc. those times were the worst so even the choice between the austere life of a Catholic and the hedonic life of a non-Catholic was a further obstacle to the survival of the Church.

2 then there are the conspiracy theories. they come and they go.

3 and to reject the most plausible explanation (see 1 above), you need to have a reason.

4 if you don't have good reason to reject the most plausible explanation, then you have a bad reason to reject it.

5 all the anti-Catholic nonsense that follows is, therefore, just that: anti- Catholic nonsense.

i cannot make it any simpler.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 02, 2004.

Ian..,

Maybe I am thick or something., but I seem to have missed your plausible explanation.., and what is it you are trying to explain.

We need to get on the same page.

Would you mind telling me again what it is that is your point., or explanation, and of what??

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2004.

don't play dumb Faith. let me simplify it through a series of questions.

Q/ do you you persist in associating the Church with the beast etc in the Apocalypse.

Yes or No?

PS: this will help you: "The woman is clearly a religious entity-- some say it is Catholic Mary who represents this false New World religion. The city? Vatican City....Rome..,of course! Which, by-the- way, sits on seven hills.....and yes., Rome has had dominion over many kings. Prophecy suggests that this empire will be revived."

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 02, 2004.

Q/ do you you persist in associating the Church with the beast etc in the Apocalypse

By associate--do you mean "do I think that the Church is the beast?"

The beast is Satan. So my answer to your question is no. The Church is represented by Mary...who may very well be the woman on the beast.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2004.

the failure to answer a direct question is quite an answer in itself.

here's another quote of yours to help you along.

"I agree that the European Union can be the begining of this One World Order--or revived Roman Empire. But there will be a necessary religious element that will also become a strong part of this union-- and in fact., take it over.., for a time. This union will suit Satan for a time--until he decides she is no longer useful. Religion and government in cahoots together....history repeating itself?? Isn't the Pope already very busy trying to unite everyone under one banner? Will an apostate church rule this revived government?

I really have no idea--but is the Roman Catholic Church involved in the European Union at this time?"

I repeat:

Q/ do you persist in associating the Church with the beast etc in the Apocalypse. ["associating" has its plain meaning: connecting, correlating, linking, relating, bracketing together]

Yes or No?

Which one is it?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 02, 2004.

As I explained...,

I see the Woman as the Church. She is sitting astride the beast, riding him--for a time. The beast is the government or Empire.

I can't answer any more plainly than that.

So....your point or question or explanation is?????

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2004.

so your answer is "yes", even though you steadfastly refuse to say so.

this is progress.

the Church is riding the beast. you do not know who the beast is. it might be the European Union. buyt you're not sure.

why then do you believe that the woman on the beast in the Church.

are you speculating in the sense that you believe with the exact same conviction that the woman could be Minnie Mouse? or do you actually have some reasons that you can share?

pls advise -- esp bearing in mind that the beast is unknown in yr theory.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 02, 2004.

Here is a very timely article that appeared on the Christian Broadcast Network concerning the spiritual vacuum in Europe and the fact that ISLAM not Catholocism is filling the gap.

Is Europe the New 'Dark Continent'?

*****

Realistically, there are some MAJOR problems with the assumption that the Catholic Church is the one who will ride the "beast" so to speak.

The world HATES the Church's stance on abortion. The world hates the Church's stance on homosexuality. The world hates the Church's stance on birth control. The world hates the Church's stance on marriage. Not to mention, the fact that Christ is worshipped as the ONLY Lord and Savior. The EU or the UN is not going to tolerate such a "closed-minded" organization.

So how is this thing going to happen? The world HATES the Catholic Church. Wouldn't the Catholic Church have to CHANGE all of its disciplines and creeds in order to fit the "politically correct" climate of the Europeans?

As I mentioned earlier, the EU has already chosen the "Woman Riding the Beast" as its logo and motto. It has chosen to mock Catholocism, NOT embrace it.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 02, 2004.

Gail, please don't post long articles. That is exactly why we have over 70 threads messed up.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 02, 2004.

Okay David.

Here's a link reported by the Chicago Sun Times concerning France's refusal to show "The Passion" because of its large Muslim and Jewish population.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-passion29.html

I'm afraid the religious climate in Europe is no where near being ready to embrace Catholocism as the "false religion" of the New World Order.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 02, 2004.

The beast is antichrist. No one knows who he is yet. He will be a great leader--well liked, of this Empire yet to arise.

Is it the European Union?? Possibly.

What ever leader and Empire makes this peace treaty with Israel...is a clue--but still future.

The apostate church will be Christian only on the surface. It will wear a thin veil of Christianity. The clue to its identity will come in the overwhelming acceptance of it by most people. (The true church is rejected and persecuted for Christ's sake)

The reason I see the Roman Catholic Church is because the Catholic Church is so similar in its practices to pagan Babylon. The Roman Empire continued in Babylonianism..., and the Church took on much of the same rituals rites and festivals...just changing the names.

Across the forehead of the woman is written "Mystery Babylon." She represents revived paganism.., but more interesting is that she embodies paganized Christianity. Mystery is, by-the-way, at the heart of Catholicism.. "Mysterium Fide".

John is not simply surprised at the identity of this woman--but he is astonished! What could astonish him if the identity were simply some pagan or secular entity?The woman is no doubt representing a religious institute that has connections with Christ. We are told that no longer will the voice of the bridegroom and bride be heard in her. We are told that she is guilty of the blood of the prophets, apostles and saints of Jesus Christ.

We are told that many were led astray by her magic spell.

Mystery Babylon sits on seven hills....what city on earth sits on seven hills and also meets all these religious qualifiers?

Then God says to us in the book of Revelation--which is written to the seven churches=Christians....

"Come out of her my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes." (This makes me think of the inquisitions and crusades and the Jewish holocuast and all the wrong things committed by the Church.)

Give back to her as she has given; pay her back double for what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup.

Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself. (Makes me think of the riches she has accumulated.)

In her heart she boasts, "I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn." (Well that says a lot.)...................

Rev. 18

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2004.

Gail...I don't think the world hates the Catholic Church at all.

I think the world hates the Word of God.

And if anyone can unite the world under one banner--it is Mary. She is revered and claimed by people all over the world--apparitions and shrines are everywhere--including in Muslim countrieEveryone finds these apparitions quite appealing. And her message is world peace. Pope John Paul the second kissed the Koran and he is agreeable with the Dalai Lama...

It's coming.....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2004.

Faith, I read Dave Hunt's book a long long time ago. It is pure speculation based on his biases. Nothing more. Practically speaking, the Church could not be the "Woman" unless it burns the catechism, and recants its confessions in the creed. THAT is not going to happen.

Are you telling me the world doesn't mind being told (by the Church) that homosexuality is a sin, or that birth control is a sin, or that extramarital relations is a sin, or that Jesus Christ is the only Savior of the World, or that Jesus Christ was crucified, buried and resurrected? The world doesn't mind being told that there is a literal hell, a literal heaven?

How is the Catholic Church going to govern the world, practically speaking, when most of Europe, its headquarters, has converted to Islam?

Do you really believe the U.S. Government is going to yield in submission to the Pope, when it has only had two Catholic Presidents in ALL of its history? That's why guys like Kerry and Daschle backpeddle on Catholic moral issues, because they know their chances of getting elected "President" while "practicing" their catholocism is practically impossible.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 02, 2004.

Faith

what seems clear to me that your search for the true meaning of the Apolyptic prophesies is led by your own prejudice and not by reason BECAUSE you are content to settle upon the Church as the harlot without identifying the other protaganists, namely, beast #1 (the Anti Christ that comes from the sea) and beast #2 (the so-called false prophet that comes from the earth) AND in settling upon the Church as the harlot you make some very, very fundamental errors.

we know some things about the harlot - the way she is dressed, the scandalous way that she has behaved, BUT the most tangible statements are that:

a/ she is a City that has kingdom over the kings of the earths -- 17:18; and

b/ this City sits on seven hills -- 17:9.

Rome does sit on 7 hills; but the Vatican City is NOT a City, it is a sovereign state. it may be enclaved in the City of Rome, but it lies to the West of the Tiber whereas the hills lie to the east.

furthermore, the Vatican City does not have "kingdom over the kings of the earth". that has been proven above. it may once have acted as a very powerful mediator amongst kings, but its power never ever, in that sense, approached the power of the Roman Empire or the current power of the US.

in short, the Vatican does not meet the criteria that the Apocalypse sets forth.

furthermore, in terms of the other features of the harlot, your assaults on the activities of the Church are ill-informed and mislead you. do you really understand the Inquisition - what it was about? do you really understand the Crusades? are you not aware of the many plaudits received by the Pope and the Church FROM JEWS on account of the sensitive and heroic manner in which the Church hid and protected Jews from the Nazis?

clearly not.

IF you were to approach this in an objective, rationale manner, you might note that, yes, indeed, Rome has seven hills; and Rome was the most despotic and immoral of places; and the Romans persecuted Catholics for 300 years; and that the Emperors considered themselves gods; BUT that the Empire eventually accepted Catholicism as the state religion; and that evetually that evil empire divided and fell.

within that short paragraph, you find most of what you need to create a plausible analysis that includes the harlot and beasts #1 and #2. that is, a theory that is balanced and passable, rather than one directed at the Church and hoping to find a beasts #1 and #2 that fits.

btw, you might also begin to understand the conversion of pagan festivals to holy days. remember, Rome was not built in a day, nor was the infrastructure of Catholicism. Christmas Day was the day previously used as some pagan feast day (something to do with mid- winter, i think). However, I, and all other Catholics, celebrate the Nativity on that day. does that make us pagans? get real.

of course, as this analysis does not involve criticism of the Church, you will not be interested.

PS surely the "apostate church" is beast #2, not the harlot? or are you saying that the Church is both the harlot AND beast #2? heck, maybe its all 3 of them?!?!?!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 03, 2004.

Faith

let me just clarify one thing. the harlot is a City - that's what the Bible says - not a religion. i iommitted to mention that you therefore make a 2-step error in yr attack on the Church.

the harlot may be Rome or Jerusalem or Rio in Brazil or Edinburgh in Scotland (see below!!) or some other city built on 7 hills.

CONSPIRACY THEORY #2,000,000,000: "The Treaty of Edinburgh finally broke the Auld Alliance with France and made newly Protestant Scotland an ally of Protestant England. In an unofficial civil war between Scotland's Protestant Lords and its Catholic regent Mary of Guise, the Protestants were helped by England, while Mary of Guise received French support.

The result was a stalemate, which broke only when the regent died. The Protestant Lords seized the chance to expel the French and end the Auld Alliance. They also called the "Reformation Parliament" to make the break with Rome."

John Knox was born near Edinburgh!!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 03, 2004.

Ian...,

You said: let me just clarify one thing. the harlot is a City - that's what the Bible says - not a religion. i iommitted to mention that you therefore make a 2-step error in yr attack on the Church.

the harlot may be Rome or Jerusalem or Rio in Brazil or Edinburgh in Scotland (see below!!) or some other city built on 7 hills.

The Catholic encyclopedia states: "It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined."

There are, of course, other cities--such as Rio de Janeiro, that were also built on seven hills. Therefore--John provides us with at least seven more characteristics to limit the identification to Rome alone. Rome is the only city that passes every test John gives., including it's identification as Mystery Babylon.

The city is Rome, but more specifically--Vatican City. Even Catholic Apologist Karl Keating tells us that Babylon is a code word for Rome. Peter writes: "The church here in Babylon...sends you her greeting" (From 1 Peter 5:13).

"Mystery" which is printed on the woman's forehead is the perfect designation for Vatican City. "Mysterium Fide" is at the very heart of Roman Catholicism.

One of the first things we are told about the woman is that she is a whore., and that earthly kings have committed fornication with her. Why would a city be called a whore and be accused of such things? Such an indictment would make no sense against any old city. Fornication and adultery are used in the Bible in both the physical and spiritual sense. Since there is no way that a city could engage in literal fleshly fornication, we must understand that this fornication is spiritual. In the Old Testament--Israel was accused of spiritual adultery because of their relations with heathen nations and their false gods.

We must recognize that this "city" has a spiritual relationship with God--otherwise, such an allegation charged against this city--would be meaningless. What reason would God have to charge Rio de Janeiro or any other city on seven hills with adultery or fornication--Does Rio de Janeiro make any claim of having a special relationship with God??

Jerusalem is not built on seven hills.

Only Vatican City, Rome, makes the claim to be the world-wide headquarters of Chriustianity. Her Pope entroned in Rome claims to be the exclusive representative of God--the Vicar of Christ.

Not only does Rome's pope call himself the vicar of Christ--but the Church he heads claims to be the one true Church and the bride of Christ. Christ's bride--whose hope is to join her Bridegroom in heaven.., is to have no earthly relations or ambitions--yet the Vatican is obseesed with earthly enterprise. Has the Roman Catholic Church remained faithful to Christ? I think history answers that question for us.

Christ said: "My kingdom is not of this world; otherwise my servants would fight." Popes have, however, fought with armies and navies in the name of Christ to build a huge kingdom which is very much of this world.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 05, 2004.

you're at it again Faith.

Rome might meet the criteria, but the Vatican City does not.

the VC is a sovereign state, independent of Italy and Rome, with its own head of state, the Holy Father, and its own diplomatic corps.

it just so happens to be surrounded by the city of Rome, but it quite clearly sits outside the traditional 7 hills of Rome.

for that reason alone, the city that sits in the seven hills CANNOT be the Vatican City. it might be Rome, i beleve it is Rome or Jerusalme, but it is not the Vatican State.

for the same reason, it is not Avignon, a previous location for the See. the same logic applies.

you are so desparate to think the worst of the Church that you ignore these basic OBJECTIVE FACTS.

the rest of what you write is just hearsay and speculation - or worse.

equally, the whore is a city, not a church. you ignore that too.

i think you need to go back and read the Apocalypse again.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 07, 2004.

I think you need to recognize that the *Woman* represents the religious aspect of this *city*.., in the same way that Mary [not the biblical Mary, mind you] represents the Roman Catholic religion.

That this Woman represents a world-wide religious system based in Rome and has its roots in Babylonianism--is all to clear.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2004.

the whore is a City, not a religion, not anything else. the whore is a City.

The Vatican is not a City, nor does it sit on seven hills.

it is a sovereign state that is enclaved within a city that sits on seven hills.

that city is a city that was once hell on earth, around the time the Scriptures were being written, that persecuted Christians.

the same could be said of the city of Jerusalem.

by attempting to pin this on the Church, you betray your subjective emotions. the objective facts render your treatise as nothing more that an overly imaginative, and rather offensive, conspiracy theory.

you have yet to identify the beasts -- from the se and from the earth.

other interpretations of the Apocalypse not only stay true to the Scriptures by identifying the whore as Rome or Jerusalem, cities built on seven hills, but are also consistent with the overall requirements of Scripture -- that there must be 2 beast and 1 whore.

the truth is there for you to see.

i wonder why you WANT to believe this conspiracy theory.

if you will -- were you born into fundamentalism?

or did you marry a fundamentalist?

or is there another reason for this?

you don't have to answer these questions btw, i recognise that they are personal and i would never push you for a response. however, if you are willing to share, we can use this thread as "the couch",....

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 08, 2004.

Ian...

Why do you suppose John chose to represent this city with a Woman?

I think that the *woman* is an understood symbolic inference to religion.

I was raised Catholic--but by the time I was in my twenties--I was a non-practicing Catholic.

I became born-again while in the Scriptures at a friends church while attending a baptism.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2004.

Faith

the whore IS A CITY, not a religion, not anything else.

The Vatican is neither a City, nor does it sit on seven hills: it is a sovereign state that is enclaved within a city that sits on seven hills.

the city in the Apocalypse is a city that was once hell on earth, around the time the Scriptures were being written, that persecuted Christians.

the same could be said of the city of Jerusalem -- IN THOSE DAYS.

believe what you WANT TO believe. i choose to believe what I OUGHT TO believe.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 08, 2004.

Ian.., though you denounce my position--you have not refuted it.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2004.

Ok, my two "sense".

John of Patmos was probably the author of Revelations. Patmos was probably writing under direct persecution from Domitian (A.S. 81-96).

Could the "Seven Hills" actually be referring to the seven churches of Asia (Rev. 1:4)?

Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2004.

Or maybe they refer to the seven points in Lady Liberties crown...hm??

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2004.

Oops! Make that, Domitian (A.D. 81-96) who is characterized as a persecutor of Christians during his reign (A.D. 95).

Reader's Digest: Who's Who In The Bible.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2004.

Ah! yes, Lady Liberty and her points. Next, we'll be discussing the Washington Monument and its direct relationship to the sun worshipping idolatry and the "manly" representation of pre-Christian mythology.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2004.

Faith

i have clearly refuted your position AND denounced it.

refuted because you have not read the Apocalypse properly -- the whore is a city (not a religion) that sits on 7 hills. the Vatican City is not a city, it is a sovereign state that sits outside the 7 hills of Rome. Rome meets these objective criteria, as does Jerusalem. the VC does not. you are refuted.

i have denounced you also because you are trying to "pin" something on the Church and are twisting Scripture to do so.

in reality, there is an astonishing symmetry between the prophesy and the events in Rome and Jerusalem about the time St John scriopted the book.

the beasts and the whore have most likely already revealed themselves.

the prophesy has come true already. Romamn emoperors' self- deification, persecution of Christians in Rome and Jerusalem, etc etc.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 09, 2004.

I would more than likely have to agree with you, Ian. At least, 50% agreement. Does that make sense? Ok, 51%. I'm not sure enough about Revelations to make any firm conclusions. I cannot accept the idea that the Catholic Church is the "item" named in Revelations.

Also, by naming St. John, do you consider him to be the John and not another priest/monk by the same (common/popular) name?

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2004.

rod,

a short summary from Advent:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 09, 2004.

Thanks, Ian. I think I read that article way back when. It is good to review it though.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2004.

Ian, foe you to refute Faith two things must happen: a)She accepts your theory b) The majority (80% plus) accept your thesis. If not it is just like any other theory. c)You are either Jesus Christ, God, or any of his angel who knows the truth

Instead of refuting, as catholics like to boast, use rwsponded, replied,...they provide your opponent with the idea your tying to dialogue and not bully him/her into submission.

Rod, faith, and Ian:

the 7 hills represent Rome . The Woman, who sits there, the Roman empire. It makes sense since Rome was the capital. It could not be the roman catholic Church because it did not exist then!!! People were called either Christians, Nazoreans, ebionites, and the Church was the Way (see Acts).

Rod is right in saying the beast is domitian. He is the 8th emperor on the list of rulers. His father was Vespasian and his brother Titus. That is why he belongs with the others.(There were 3 usurpers between Nero and Vespasian). That is why revelation mention 7 heads and 10 horns. 7 main rulers: Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Vespasian and Titus before the beast(Domitian). Then 10 crowns: the previous 7 plus Vitellius,otto,and another who ruled 68-69 AD as usurpers.

Kaisaros(abbreviated with K) meaning Caesar, Domitian (Domitianus (pronounced domitsianos), Greek Domitianos, tralsliterated as Domitsianos with Hebrew letters) gives you the famous 666!!!

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 10, 2004.

the whore is a City Elpidio.

the woman therefore is Rome, not the Empire.

or maybe she is Jerusalem, also on 7 hills, also a major persecuter of early Catholics.

i agree with most of the other stuff, look at the first house of Rome post Caesar - the "princeps" wasn't it (first real dictators). fits it like a glove really.

however, at least you are not tryingto put the square peg in the round hole here, as FAith has. Amen for that.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 11, 2004.

Elpidio...

John's vision ogf the Woman riding the beast--was a vision pertaining to the endtimes. To say that the Roman Catholic Church didn't exist yet is non-sensical.

That would be like saying that the prophecy about Jesus' crucifixion in Isaiah 53 isn't about Jesus because Jesus didn't exist when Isaiah wrote that.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2004.

indeed Faith

you agree that the Church was founded by Jesus. we both know that!!!

but you are foolish beyond folly to pin this on the VC.

try Rome, try Jerusalem. that's the reasoned approach.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 11, 2004.

Do you really believe that Rome and/or Vatican City are anything different, Ian??

The words "Vatican" and "Rome" are universally used interchangably. When people speak of Rome--it is understood that they are refering to the hierarchy that runs the Catholic Church. So closely are Catholicism and Rome linked that the Catholic Church is known as the *Roman* Catholic Church.., or simply the Roman Church.

More than that--for more than a thousand years, the Roman Catholic Church exercised both religious and civil control over the entire city of Rome *and* its surroundings...I am sure you heard of that fraudulent document titled "The Donation of Constatine"...right?

That document claimed that Constatine had given quite a bit of land, along with Rome and the Lateran Palace, to the popes in perpetuity. But in 1440 this document was proved a forgery by Lorenzo Valla, a papal aide. This is recognized by historians today. Yet allegedly infallible popes continued for centuries to assert that the donation was genuine and on that basis, they justified their pomp, power, and possessions.

The Papal States were literally stolen by popes from their rightful owners. The papacy controlled and taxed these territories and derived great wealth from them until 1848.

Ultimately--in September of 1860, over his raging protests, pPope Pius IX lost all of the papal states to the new, finally united Kingdom of Italy--which left him, at the time of the First Vatican Council in 1870, still in controll of Rome and its surroundings.

The point is that, exactly as John foresaw in his vision, a spiritual entity that claimed a speacial relationship with God became identified with a city that was built on seven hills. That woman committed spiritual fornication with earthly rulers and eventually reigned over them. The Roman Catholic Church has been continuously identified with that city.

The Catholic Encyclopedis since Vatican II declares:

"....hence, one understands the central place of Rome in the life of the Church today and the significance of the title Roman Catholic Church, the Church that is universal, yet focused upon the ministry of the Bishop of Rome. Since the founding of the Church there by St. Peter...Rome has been the center of all Christendom."

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2004.

What do you mean by endtime, Faith? 325 AD?, 1519AD?, 1070AD?, 1914 AD?, 1945AD?, 2000AD?

To me, revelation's prophecies came true during Domitian's rule:81-96 AD. He , like Nero persecuted Christians. He is called the beast. Even the woman from revelation (Mary) talks about her delivering a baby, which happened around 4 or 5 BC. His name was Jesus. Jesus had to fight the works of the devil (that is evil).

Other than death becoming extinct at the end of Revelation one day, 96% of revelation already has been fulfilled. This includes the famous 666 who was Domitian.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 11, 2004.

Faith

the whore is a city.

the VC is, in old speak, a Kingdom.

the whore is not the VC.

might be Rome, might be Jerusalem. these are cities that sit on 7 hills. even if the VC were a city of Italy, its sits beside a city that sits on 7 hills, ie beside Rome.

square peg, round hole, never a match as hard as you might try.

sorry.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 12, 2004.

God is not charging a *city* with fornication Ian.., He is not charging a *city* to be a whore. Revelation says that this city is a woman=religious entity.

Vatican City is called a city whether you like it or not. But more importantly--this woman sits on=reigns over the city.

What a perfect description of the Catholic Church who reigned over Rome for so long.....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 12, 2004.

Sounds too much like that Hislop conspiracy.

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 12, 2004.

Faith

God IS charging a City with fornication, the City of Rome that sat at the centre of abominable practices for so long and that tried to destroy the Catholic Church.

the whore is that Rome, sitting on the seven hills of Rome. Remember the Roman empire stretched as far as contemporary imagination.

a further clue - the 7 heads are also 7 kings:

- five are fallen - one is, the 6th - other will be there for short time, the 7th - the 8th is one of the first 7

Well, ive Roman emperors would have been dead by that time: 1 Augustus, 2 Tiberius, 3 Caligula, 4 Claudius, and 5 Nero.

The current (6th) Emperor would be Vespasian, 70-79, the sixth emperor.

The 7th – due a short reign – would be Titus who only reigned for two years (79-81).

After him comes the 8th emperor, Domitian (81-96). Now see 17:11: "And the beast which was and is not: the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into destruction".

Well Domitian carried out the second persecution of Christians, believed to be even worse that the persecution under Nero because it was Empire-wide.

Therefore, Nero, one of the previous 7, is seen as being “re- incarnated” (an allusion) as Domitian.

this makes great sense to me.

obvioulsy you know 7 kings that must men that the whore is not a City but is actually the Church whose HQ is located for the time being in a sovereign state adjacent to the city of Rome but outside the 7 hills of Rome.

i look forward to seeing this analysis.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 15, 2004.

Such an allegation against a mere city would be meaningless.

How does one commit adultery or fornication again someone they have no relationship with in the first place?

Pagan Rome has no relationship with God--therefore it cannot be commiting adultery or fornication.

As I pointed out earlier--John, like the prophets in the Old Testament is using the term fornication in the spiritual sense. The city must, therefore, have claim a special relationship with God.

Rome really equals Vatican.

It may be true that pagan Rome made sport of throwing to the lions, burning and otherwise killing thousands of Christians and not a few Jews. Yet "Christian Rome" slaughtered many times that number of both Christians and Jews.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 15, 2004.

Faith

i have already won the point about the 7 hills. read ALL of the previous posts in an objective manner.

i was actually offering you a chance to widen the debate to the 7 kings.

can you identify these kings?

i have.

please provide yr analysis.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 15, 2004.

I wasn't aware that we are in a contest. You won? Says who? I have shown you why Vatican City is the whore....and why plain ole' Rome alone doesn't quailify.

I believe that the Bible prophesies the revival of the Roman Empire--

No., I haven't studied about *who* these kings might be., though I think it is clear that they are antichrist. One hasn't come yet., and the others could possibly be all the main kings of the past fallen empires--Babylon, Media-Persia, Greek and the Roman Empires. I believe the Roman Empire divided into two.

All of these Empires have been under the spell of this "woman" who is the epitome of paganism....

Let's see...

King Nebuchadnezzar., King Xerxes'., King Alexander., Constatine., Ceasar..,who knows??

These are end-time prophecies...

What ever this apostate church is--this end-time revived Empire/New World Order--it will be far worse than anything we see today, because the true church will be removed, and evil will run rampant.

That this apostate church has its roots in Roman religion is so clear.

Even coins issued by the Roman government during the first century of the Christian era carried the motto "the city on seven hills." And I'm sorry Ian--but you really can't separate the city from it's professed state religion. Emperors were popes and popes were emperors.

Did you know that the harlots of ancient Rome used to identify themselves to their customers by wearing their names on a label on their foreheads?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 15, 2004.

very scientific Faith.

is this a superstition or a faith system that you belong to?

on the basis of yr response, looks like the former to me.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 15, 2004.

"No., I haven't studied about *who* these kings might be"

how can you possibly run around making accusations if this is where you are?

this proves what i have been saying all along.

you have identified yr culprit. now you just need to "fit him up".

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 16, 2004.

All any of us can do is guess at who the kings might be.., you certainly do not know!

I haven't attacked that because I think it more important to understand who this woman is and who is that city.

It's all theology Ian--nothing provable.

I think I've done a pretty good job at studying this--minus the identity of the kings., and I think what I have said is far more reasonable than anything you have said.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 16, 2004.

faith

i think you are an admirable scholar of Scripture, don't get me wrong.

however, it really does seem to me that you have lined the Church up for the rap, and that you intend to find the evidence post facto. that's not right.

currently, the best evidence is that the Apocalypse references Nero/ Domitian.

PS i haven't even bothered you with the Casear Nero = 666 (or 661, assuming an alternative spelling of the name) argument because i do not have the language skills. and i don't see the need.

however, someone like Elpidio could take you through that very easily, i'd bet.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 16, 2004.

Don't think that I haven't studied all about the theology that claims Revelation already happened...blah, blah, blah.

I find it to be wrong.

One of the first and one of the greatest persons to fit the role of Antichrist was Emperor Nero. He put many Christians to death, and even killed many members of his own family. But Nero's actions actually helped the Christian church grow. And when he learned that the Roman Senate was plotting against him--he died by poisoning himself.

Some have even thought that Ronald Wilson Reagan was the Antichrist! Notice that there are six letters in each of his three names. Lol!!

Clearly--Revelation is referencing the end-times.., when Christ returns. Do you conclude that Christ has already returned then?

I'm sorry--but even the temple has not been rebuilt for the third time.

I did not just decide to think that the Catholic Church is somehow involved in the end-time scenario--but after studying Scripture--this is what is revealed. But it is not necessarily the church of today-- but a future and more apostate version. Once the true believers are raptured out of here--there will be no one to keep it at bay.

This entity--this woman--existed before Roman Catholicism did.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 16, 2004.

well faith

if you are going scripture alone, you will need to provide the scriptural nexus between the apostasy and the Church.

that is LACKING in yr analysis -- which is why i believe that your analysis is self-serving. peviously you listed all sorts of "bad things" you accused the Church of perpretating. NOW, you say that it will be an altogether different Church -- so history is irrelevant.

consider this -- why does that need any church to be involved? couldn't someone sets himself up as a god, as the Romans did? dedicated to the worship of money, hedonism,...., a return to Roman times. isn't that a far more likely scenario?

and if, as Gail has stated, the Pope ever changed the dogma that the Church has held for 2,000 years, we would all know that he was not acting for the Church. of course, he wouldn't because it has been promised in Scripture.

btw, no protestant denomination has ever had that protection, or ever will -- and you have to add in the random effect of private interpretation.

in summary, there's just sooo much coincidence for one part of the Apocalypse not already to have been fulfilled. it seems very clear, and historians looking at the evidence conclude this, that this is the case.

yes, there WILL be a Second Coming. that is for the future. but the 2 beasts and the whore have already been routed by Holy Mother Catholic Church!!!!

(personal thesis, not Church teaching, btw)

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 16, 2004.

No kidding Ian...this is your personal thesis? I could have never guessed.

The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place.

John's prophecy requires a spiritual connection between God and the woman.

And I never said that this apostate church woul;d be something entirely different from what it is today--only that it would be worse.

The first beast is the Antichrist--a false Messiah

The second beast is the false prophet. He is a counterfeit of the Holy Spirit.

These are Satan's evil accomplices--and together, the three form an unholy trinity in direct opposition to to the holy trinity.

Satan is an imitator, and he loves to imitate Christ! Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 9:5). Satan disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14). He spreads a false illumination upon the Word of God, resulting in false doctrine that leads people astray.

God sent a Messiah, Jesus Christ. Satan will send a messiah too--the Antichrist.

God will send His son to earth on a white horse (Rev. 19:11). Satan will send his son, the son of perdition, on a white horse (Rev. 6:2).

The devil is a master of deception!

See the unholy Trinity of the last days (Rev 13)

This unholy trinity--The dragon (Satan), the beast out of the sea, and the false prophet--unite in a desparate attempt to overthrow God. Because the beast-- the antichrist, is a false messiah, he will be a counterfeit Christ and even stage his own ressurection (Rev 13:14). People will follow and worship him and be awed by his power and miracles (Rev 13:3-4). They will believe that he is Christ returned!

And the Jews will mistake Himfor their Messiah who they still wait for.

We should remember all the warnings about false Christs and pay close attention.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 16, 2004.

ever more fascinating. Faith, pls explain this, with scriptural references, if you will:

"The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place."

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 16, 2004.

Faith, if the anti-Christ is revealed to you, you may not be in the situation that we all desire to be in-it will be too late to do anything.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 16, 2004.

Rod...

Antichrist can't really be unleashed until the church is removed.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 16, 2004.

Ian...why do you need Scriptural references to understand what adultery is?

Can a woman commit adultery againt a man she is not involved with?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 16, 2004.

Faith

you said:

"The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place."

where is the Scripture?

Surely (!!!) you have not made this all up?!?!?!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 16, 2004.

Faith, my understanding is that the anti-Christ will be revealed to those who are--well, who are damned--left behind.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 16, 2004.

Ian.., it is common sense.

How can a pagan city be guilty of spiritual adultery and fornication?

What the Bible is accusing this woman/religious order of is that she is cheating on God.

She has not been faithful.

Pagan Rome can't cheat on God--can she? She isn't even in a relationship with God.

The Bible reveals in Revelation that this woman was spiritually connected with God. In Revelation 18., he calls His people out of her.

He says that no longer will the voice of the bridegroom and bride be heard in her. Who is the Bridegroom and Bride--according to Scripture? And how is Jesus and his followers--the body-the church., heard in this woman?

The same chapter declares that no longer will the light od the lamp shine in her. Who does Scripture tell us is this light? Jesus--right?

We also read that this *woman* claims to sit as queen......hmm...does that ring any bells for you?

The Roman Catholic Church claims a special relationship with God--yet she has cheated on Him.

The Bible tells us that we 9the church) are not of this world and we are not to fight with sword for the cause of Christ--yet, what has the Catholic Church been involved with over history?? Politics! And war!!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 16, 2004.

one more time Faith. you say:

"The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place."

where is the Scripture -- OR are you making this up?!?!

verses and Bible version please.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 17, 2004.

Faith, if what you are preaching is the truth, then it seems that all of our faith has amounted to nothing. You say that that Catholic Church is what you claim and that the anti-Christ is merely a few feet from being revealed, then you, everyone on this forum, all believers, non-believers, and I don't have a chance. Therefore, we are in the final pre-stages of your so-called "Rapture". I suppose that Elpidio may be correct in saying that certain events have already occurred, which bothers me even more. It sounds like we may be waiting for the wrong thing here. Christ may have already swept up his "elect" and we are the after math. If you are correct, Faith, I think that our Salvation has passed us by. That's if you know the identity of the anti-Christ.

One major problem:

History has never recorded any image in the sky for all to see, as Jesus makes His second coming. Or, has it happened and history didn't see it?

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 17, 2004.

nice point Rod.

the so called "rapture" in a point in itself.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 17, 2004.

Not quite sure I can continue in this... Ian., you must be thick or something., no offense. But I answered your question. It is common sense to understand that a woman cannot cheat on a man or commit adultery or fornication against him ifm she isn't even his woman. Do you see? Pagan Rome cannot commit spiritual adultery or fornication against the God of the Bible unless she is spiritualy involved with Him. Do you understand?

I also told you to see Revelation chapter 18--in order to see the spiritual qualifiers John describes of this woman. >>>>>>>>>>>>

Rod?

Huh?

Faith, if what you are preaching is the truth, then it seems that all of our faith has amounted to nothing. You say that that Catholic Church is what you claim and that the anti-Christ is merely a few feet from being revealed, then you, everyone on this forum, all believers, non-believers, and I don't have a chance. Therefore, we are in the final pre-stages of your so-called "Rapture". I suppose that Elpidio may be correct in saying that certain events have already occurred, which bothers me even more. It sounds like we may be waiting for the wrong thing here.

I don't believe I gave a time frame--though I do think that history is revealing that we are closer than ever before. Look at what is happening in the middle east.

The Antichrist has not been revealed. We don't even see the temple being rebuilt in yet. Relax.

I don't know what it is that you are waiting for..but according to Scripture, the church returns as an army with Christ at His second coming. So I long for the rapture...something that there will be no warning about. In the twinkling of an eye...the dead in Christ will raise first, then, those still living, those who have received Christ as their Savior-- will meet up with the others in the air and we will be forever with Christ. That is what the Bible says. This has not happened yet.

Christ may have already swept up his "elect" and we are the after math. If you are correct, Faith, I think that our Salvation has passed us by. That's if you know the identity of the anti-Christ. One major problem:

History has never recorded any image in the sky for all to see, as Jesus makes His second coming. Or, has it happened and history didn't see it?

I am not sure what the heck you mean rod. Nothing has paased us by. If you are in Christ--you are saved. I do not know the identity of Antichrist, why do you keep saying this?

There has never been any image in the sky for all to see...what are you talking about? When Christ returns--there will be no mistaking it. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 17, 2004.

Trying to help.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 17, 2004.

I answered you Ian.

Read Revelation 18. That is the Scripture verses you need to see in order to understand the qualifications of the woman. She is a city where the voice of the Bridegroom and Bride are heard.., she is a city where the light of the world shone.., she is a city that calls herself *queen* and she is guitly of fornication and adultery against the God of the Bible. Pagan Rome doesn't qualify because Pagan Rome is not in this spiritual relationship with God. But religious Rome-- Vatican City--is.

If you are expecting a verse that Says: "Rome cannot be the adulterer because she was not in a relationship with God" then I can't help you. You can't show me a verse that says God is a Trinity--yet we can see the teaching anyway. Same thing applies in all Scriptural understanding.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 17, 2004.

Oh no!! the italics are back!!

Who are the italics? Could they be some elite group from Italy??

Faith, for somebody who doesn't know or care about who the anti- Christ may be, you sure are making the Catholic Church out to be one of the twins. Maybe, you should "calm down"? The Catholic Church is made up of many believers and non-believers--it takes all kinds of people. In retro-inversion, I tend to view Protestantism as that "Great Apostacy". Protestantism can very well fit into your conspiracy theory, too. But, why all the clamor about the anti- Christ and your "Rature"? If a person is truly saved--ear marked for Salvation--of what significance is the end times? We can see the writings on the wall, but let's hope that we may never make heads or tails (tales) of that writing. Only the damned will understand who the anti-Christ will be. Yes, I know you have a hard time trying to figure out what I'm talking about. But, it really isn't that difficult, is it?

Somewhere in that Bible, it tells of everyone on earth looking up into the sky and seeing Christ's return. Everyone will see Him.

.....................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 17, 2004.

Oops! lights off. I thought I did.

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 17, 2004.

Faith

you may as well say "Go read the Bible".

if you cannot substantiate yr point, don't bother making it.

again, you said this: "The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place."

where in Chapter 18 of the Apocalypse do you find this?

a VERY simple question.

the alternative -- retract the comment with an apology to the Church.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 17, 2004.

Faith, your thread has made me go back and re-read Revelations, again. For me, John of Patmos is writing about his oppressive government ruled by an authority figure calling themselves "God". It isn't talking about the Catholic Church. Oh, sure, we could insert any for of government or denomination or idealogy into that book. But, Revelations is a tricky book to ....uh, reveal.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 17, 2004.

Lol!!

Forget it Ian. I answered your question. Don't blame me if you don't get it!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 17, 2004.

Faith wrote: "The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place."

Faith, pls provide verse and Bible version that supports this.

all i can do is ask. but ask i will.

do i need to start drawing inferences from your inability/refusal to respond?

-- Ian (ib@vertfigo.com), March 17, 2004.

What makes you think that I have to provide a Scripture verse that says that--for it to be true?

It's common sense Ian.

I already provided you with the Scripture--but apparently, you don't want to read.

Let me try this in a different way.

Can a woman cheat on you if she isn't your wife or girlfriend? Can she commit adultery or fornication against you--if she isn't in a relationship with you?

I rest my case.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 17, 2004.

Faith wrote: "The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place."

Faith, pls provide verse and Bible version that supports this.

...IF you can

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 18, 2004.

Ian.., You provide the Scripture verse that says adultery and fornication against God can be committed by a pagan state...first!

Provide the Scripture verse that says a man can commit adultery against a woman who isn't his wife!!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 19, 2004.

Faith wrote: "The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place." Faith, pls provide verse and Bible version that supports this.

...IF you can

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 19, 2004.

You are becoming obnoxious Ian.

If you are incapable of debating--then don't bother.

I gave you the Scripture, so don't ask again., as though I haven't.

You'll need to read....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 19, 2004.

Faith

you are starting to treat me with quite some contempt. i do not believe that i deserve to be treated in this way.

i repeat my question, which was asked in good faith:

Faith wrote: "The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place."

Faith, pls provide verse and Bible version that supports this.

pls.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 19, 2004.

Ian., I am tired of this demand. It is unreasonable. Do I need to supply a Bible verse to prove that men can't bear children?

Catholicism doesn't support 2/3 of its dogma with any Scripture whatsoever--so why demand it of others?

But anyway.., since you are too lazy to look up Revelation chapter 18 and read it, I guess you'll just have to deal.

Revelation 18 lays down the requirements of this woman. It describes her as being intimately involved with the God of the Bible--but she has committed fornication and adultery against Him.

Why you don't want to look at it is understandable--but I have provided what you are asking of me.

Please don't mindlessly repost the same request yet again.

I won't respond anymore...

Read the Scripture I did provide and respond to that---if you can!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 19, 2004.

touche Faith.

you are not answering my request because I have asked the impossible -- ie reconciling yr opinion with Scripture.

i will demonstrate why when i can a chance to type it out. maybe (hopefully!) later today.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 20, 2004.

Here is an interesting question that you ask, Faith:

"Do I need to supply a Bible verse to prove that men can't bear children? "

If we have a closer look at the human anatomy, we would have a difficult time trying to explain why men require a particular physical part--his breasts. Why? The Bible does not give an answer to this, does it?

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 20, 2004.

In other words, the Bible does not give us the answers in perfect syntax. We may have to wait for the Holy Spirit to guide us in understanding what we read.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 20, 2004.

"Can a woman cheat on you if she isn't your wife or girlfriend? Can she commit adultery or fornication against you--if she isn't in a relationship with you? "

Yes.

If I am to believe that we should live a sanctified life, we must remain faithful to God's teachings. This means that we are to remain celbate until we are joined with our mate. If a single person goes against these teachings, in reality , the single person committs a sin against himself/herself and the future spouse. The relationship may not have manifested itself prior to the sin, but the sin has occurred.

But, we are talking about a relationship with God. That relationship started since the beginning of creation, whether or not the person has realized it yet or has become a soul yet.

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 20, 2004.

Wrong rod....there is no way you are going to have a relationship with all women. A woman who will marry another man, and will never know you, cannot cheat on you.

Same thing holds for pagan religions. These pagans will never know God or enter into a relationship with him. They love other gods....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 20, 2004.

Well, of course, in your man and woman relationship when one never meets the other. But, you are looking at it from a human point of view, rather than God's point of view.

You are saying that the pagans are on their own with their own god(s). You are saying that the pagans are outside of creation. The pagans are not outside of creation; they are outside of faith in God. But, they are still God's creation. God will not deny that He created them, but they will deny (fornicate, adulterate) Him. Which leads me to the point of the real meaning of "fornication" and "adultery". I believe that we are always meaning that relationship with God, not humans. We are to stay true to God.

...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 20, 2004.

Sorry rod....but close scrutiny of the Scriptures reveal that fornication and adultery is not the fleshy fornication and adultery we think of., but a spiritual one. Israel is guilty of this same thing against God.

Pagan Rome--the city itself--cannot commit fornication or adultery. It is necessarily a spiritual offense, and since pagan Rome has no spiritual connection with the God of the Bible--Revelataion is speaking of that aspect that does--being the Vatican!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 20, 2004.

What's the deal, Faith? I just made that connection, so why are you sorry? And, why do you always do that?

Here it is again:

Which leads me to the point of the real meaning of "fornication" and "adultery". I believe that we are always meaning that relationship with God, not humans. We are to stay true to God.

Isn't that the same thing as what you wrote??

"Sorry rod....but close scrutiny of the Scriptures reveal that fornication and adultery is not the fleshy fornication and adultery we think of., but a spiritual one. Israel is guilty of this same thing against God. "

Are we on the same page or not, Faith?

(That's what I mean about your "creamy-ness".)

(:p

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 20, 2004.

I'm afraid, though, Faith, that you have overlooked two very important things. First, the Lord does not refer to Babylon as an "adulteress" but rather a "harlot."

Secondly, and most importantly, the pagan City of Tyre found in the book of Isaiah, Chapter 23 is referred to as a "harlot" and furthermore, a cursory look at this chapter describes a city MUCH like the Babylon of Revelations.

1 The oracle concerning Tyre. Wail, O ships of Tarshish, For Tyre is destroyed, without house or harbor; It is reported to them from the land of Cyprus.

2 Be silent, you inhabitants of the coastland, You merchants of Sidon; Your messengers crossed the sea

3. And were on many waters. The grain of the Nile, the harvest of the River was her revenue; And she was the market of nations.

4 Be ashamed, O Sidon; For the sea speaks, the stronghold of the sea, saying, "I have neither travailed nor given birth, I have neither brought up young men nor reared virgins."

5 When the report reaches Egypt, They will be in anguish at the report of Tyre.

6 Pass over to Tarshish; Wail, O inhabitants of the coastland.

7 Is this your jubilant city, Whose origin is from antiquity, Whose feet used to carry her to colonize distant places?

8 Who has planned this against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, Whose merchants were princes, whose traders were the honored of the earth?

9 The LORD of hosts has planned it, to defile the pride of all beauty, To despise all the honored of the earth.

10 Overflow your land like the Nile, O daughter of Tarshish, There is no more restraint.

11 He has stretched His hand out over the sea, He has made the kingdoms tremble; The LORD has given a command concerning Canaan to demolish its strongholds.

12 He has said, "You shall exult no more, O crushed virgin daughter of Sidon. Arise, pass over to Cyprus; even there you will find no rest."

13 Behold, the land of the Chaldeans--this is the people which was not; Assyria appointed it for desert creatures--they erected their siege towers, they stripped its palaces, they made it a ruin.

14 Wail, O ships of Tarshish, For your stronghold is destroyed.

15 Now in that day Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years like the days of one king. At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of the harlot:

16 Take your harp, walk about the city, O forgotten harlot; Pluck the strings skillfully, sing many songs, That you may be remembered.

17 It will come about at the end of seventy years that the LORD will visit Tyre. Then she will go back to her harlot's wages and will play the harlot with all the kingdoms on the face of the earth.

18 Her gain and her harlot's wages will be set apart to the LORD; it will not be stored up or hoarded, but her gain will become sufficient food and choice attire for those who dwell in the presence of the LORD.

(Scripture quotes taken from the New American Standard)

******

Then we have a passage in Nahum Chapt 3:4 concerning the pagan city of Nineveh, also referred to as a harlot: All because of the many harlotries of the harlot, the charming one, the mistress of sorceries, who sells nations by her harlotries and families by her sorceries.

******

So you see, Faith, Tyre, Nineveh and Babylon have three very important things in common; they were cities who "merchandised" in the world's riches, they were all three "pagan" or WITHOUT God, and they are all three called a "harlot."

My study of these passages of scripture, thanks to your challenge, has even emboldened my position that Babylon is indeed a secular world government, devoid of God, and lavishing upon itself luxuries at the expense of the rest of the world.

Gail

P.S. My Thompson Chain Reference says this about Tyre: The most famous seaport of ancient Bible lands, was located twenty miles south of Sidon on an island three-quarters of a mile from the mainland

Here artisans made bronze, silver, and other artistic wares, and here was manufactured the purple dye that made Tyre famous. Its merchants traded with the many lands of the Mediterranean and even with the faraway British Isles.

The city has become well-known to archaeologists due to the preservation of thousands of its minted coins. Images on the coins reveals economic rivalry between Tyre and Sidon mentioned in ancient literacy sources.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 20, 2004.

I think that God surely judged the evil nations--and in particular-- paganism, which Babylon was known for. Babylon never really died., but it continued on in the next empire. That is why Rome was known as Babylon.

But what would make Rome different now? She wasn't merely a harlot-- but queen of all harlots who committed fornication against God.

Correct me if I am wrong--but it would seem to me that the Roman Catholic religion has continued in Babylon's pagan ways....making it a far worse crime than from any pagan state--because this city claims to be the headquarters of Christianity.

Who did the pagan mother of fertility god be replaced with?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 21, 2004.

Faith, I thought that your premise was that the "Harlot" of Revelations must be a religion because she was once God's but now isn't.

Are you willing to concede that point now in light of the versus mentioned above? If you aren't willing to concede that point, please explain why.

Gail

P.S. I know I sent you some stuff privately, but I cannot remember if I sent you pictures of the "woman riding the beast" statue in front of the EU in Belgium? The woman riding the beast is literally a symbol being used all over Europe. The woman riding the beast in this symbol is named Europa. She is a mythological Greek character. If I didn't send it, let me know, and I'll see if I can find it again. Also, the EU flag is 12 stars, which is a mockery of the symbol depicted in Revelations. Pretty creepy stuff AND guess what the name of the EU's website is . . . Europa!!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 21, 2004.

The way I see it Gail...is that this woman is a religious entity--she is betraying God. The beast that she rides is a revived empire--most likely Roman.., though it could be the Euopean Union, which is headed by the antichrist himself.

I think the depiction of the woman *riding* the beast--suggests that she is in cahoots with this government. When have we seen religion and politics merge like this? I think of the Old Roman Empire....

Today--is there a separate Rome from the Catholic Rome? Does a pagan Rome exist in Rome--outside of the Catholic Religion? Is it recognized? In other words., I don't think you can separate Rome from Catholicism....

Anyway--you did mention that woman on the beast, but you never did show me a picture.

I consider the beast to be the EU in any respect...so who is the woman?

Hasn't the Catholic Mary usurped the seat of the pagan goddess in Rome??

-- (faith01@myway.com..), March 21, 2004.

Here's a link to some images of the woman riding the beast ALREADY being used in Europe.

http://www.geocities.com/disciplepp/babeld.html

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 21, 2004.

Okay, here's my response to your post:

You said, "The way I see it Gail...is that this woman is a religious entity--she is betraying God. The beast that she rides is a revived empire--most likely Roman.., though it could be the Euopean Union, which is headed by the antichrist himself."

ANSWER: If Revelations said that she was an adulteress, you would have a good point, but it doesn't. It says she's a harlot, just like the city of Tire. In fact, John the Revelator borrows heavily from the language expressed in Isaiah. Nineveh, likewise, was another "power center." All of these cities are representative of "world powers," or world dominion. We know that when Rome fell that John's prophecy was fullfilled. It does not HAVE to be fullfilled again, but I think it is being fullfilled again and on a much much larger scale. The power mongers of our world are crazy with hunger for more and more and more.

You said, "I think the depiction of the woman *riding* the beast-- suggests that she is in cahoots with this government. When have we seen religion and politics merge like this? I think of the Old Roman Empire....

ANSWER: Again, you haven't proven to me that the woman is a particular religion. The Bible often refers to a particular people as a "woman." To be honest, the way the EU is going, and the UN, and even our own government for that matter, I cannot realistically see them subscribing to ANY religion whereby Jehovah is worshipped. "Separation of church and state" is a mantra in this country and ESPECIALLY in Europe! Oh, BTW, the RCC is an "observer" at the EU but not a player. You can go to their website (the EU) at Europa.com (I think) They even use "Europa" as the name of the website!!!

You said, "Today--is there a separate Rome from the Catholic Rome? Does a pagan Rome exist in Rome--outside of the Catholic Religion? Is it recognized? In other words., I don't think you can separate Rome from Catholicism....

ANSWER: Rome is a separate nation from the Roman Catholic Church. I do not know of any country that is governed by the RCC.

You said, "Anyway--you did mention that woman on the beast, but you never did show me a picture."

ANSWER: What did you think of that link I provided?

You said, "I consider the beast to be the EU in any respect...so who is the woman?"

ANSWER: I'm not sure if the EU is the woman or the beast, or only part of the whole revived Babylonian power system, i.e., the One World Government. The EU may be merely the headquarters of something much larger and much more sinister.

You said, "Hasn't the Catholic Mary usurped the seat of the pagan goddess in Rome??"

ANSWER: What pagan goddess? Mary is a creature, not a goddess. Those who call her a "goddess" are committing a serious sin.

Gail

P.S. That link I sent you last month or so contains some very alarming facts. The guy that heads up that organization backs up everything he says with newspaper articles and news reports from around the world. Check it out! Did you know, for instance, that people are already being "microchipped" in THIS COUNTRY? He also documents some pretty heavy-handed tactics of our government towards Christians . . . stuff you don't hear on the nightly news, but local news agencies report in their localities. He picks the stuff up and puts it out there.

Thessalonians does state that the antichrist will attempt to seat himself in the temple of God, but JESUS WILL SLAY HIM WITH THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH!!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 21, 2004.

Gail...,

Did you read the article that accompanied these pictures?

I am talking in particular about this part:

"Another indication about Europe is the flag - blue with 12 stars in a circle. The man who designed it was inspired by the 12 stars that in Catholic tradition halo the head of Mary. He still hopes she will be incorporated into the design. So the actual flag is of the `Queen of Heaven' as the Queen of Europe, at the very centre of the EU."

Babel introduced the first organized, idolatrous religious system in the history of the world. That is why John called Babylon "the mother of harlots" (Rev. 17:5). Since Babylon was the birthplace of spiritual adultery, the apostasy of the end times is called by the name Babylon, the mother of harlots.

What was Babylon's idolatrous system? Among other aspects of astrology and idol worship, Babylon (the former city of Babel) included a cult that followed Semiramis, wife of Marduk, whom most scholars identify with Nimrod. We know that Semiramis and Marduk/Nimrod were the ancient god and goddess of Babylon. Their son (whom Semiramis claimed was virgin born) was known to the Babylonians as Dammuzi, to the Hebrews as Tammuz, and to the Greeks as Adonis. The cult spread throughout the ancient world like a grass fire.

The divine mother and child appeared in Egypt as Isis and Horus, and in Greece as Venus and Adonis. According to Hislop's "The two Babylons," the ancient cult Nimrod and Semiramis started spreading among all nations when the people of Babel scattered throughout the world.

When God called Abraham out of Ur, He called him from a region devoted to the worship of false gods, including the "queen of heaven," the mother figure of the mother/ child cult. Joshua 24:2 tells us:

"Thus says the Lord of Israel: 'your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the river in old times; and they served other gods.' "

The cult continued to spread unabated through the years. Generations after Babel, the rebellious people of Israel told God why they prefered to make offerings and sacrifices to the "queen of heaven" instead of to him:

"But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food., we were well off, and saw no trouble" (Jer. 44:17).

In the eigth chapter of Ezekiel, God told the prophet to do a little checking. Ezekiel was to go to the temple set apart for the worship of Jehovah God and observe:

"So he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, there was a hole in the wall. Then He said to me, 'Son of man, dig into the wall'; and when I dug into the wall, there was a door. And He said to me, 'Go in and see the wicked abominations, which they are doing there.' So I went in and saw, and there-- every sort of creeping thing, abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, portrayed all around on the walls." (Ezekiel 8:7-10).

What did Ezekiel see? Idols to the queen of heaven! The mother- child cult had taken over the sanctuary of Jehovah God in Jerusalem. The picture, however, grew worse. As Ezekiel continued to look around the city, the spirit of God took him "to the door of the north gate of the Lord's house; and to my dismay, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz" (Ezekiel 8:14).

These were the Temple virgins, weeping for Tammuz, Semiramis's son who had been slain by a wild boar.

Fast-foward to a few years before Christ's birth. In 63 B.C. Julius Caesar was named Pontifex Maximus, or head of the state religion, which was the heathen mother-child cult. By 12 B.C., when Augustus received the title, the role of Roman high priest was automatically conferred upon the emporers of Rome. In A.D. 306, the emporer Constantine became a Christian and declared that Christianity was the religion of the Roman Empire. But what kind of Christianity was it?

The people went to the same temple, worshiped the same trinity of mother-child-God, and followed the same rituals. But now their rituals and religion were called "Christian." Not until A.D. 376 did an emporer realize that the Roman church was not truely Christian. The emporer Gratian refused the title of Pontifex Maximus because he recognized that Babylonianism was idolatrous.

As a result, two years later, bishop of the Christian church at Rome, was elected to the position and from that time Babylonianism and organized Christianity merged. The rites of Babylon--complete with the veneration of images and relics, penances, pilgrimages, and other pagan rites and festivals--became part of Christian worship. (The Catholic Church)

Thousands of people followed, trusting the rituals, the worship, and the acts of self-denial to save them from hell. The introduction of Babylonianism, an ancient and false mother-child cult, into the church of Jesus Christ was a satanic stroke of genius. Satan knew God's *prophesied* plan for his own destuction, and in this cult, we can see the devil's clever attempt to falsly forshadow the authentic virgin birth of Jesus Christ. (Satan knows Scripture better than we do!)

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 21, 2004.

Faith,

I am sure you know what a Catholic mass is like since you were brought up Catholic, but here's a recap. Then you can tell me what part of the Mass is pagan.

First, we have introductory song, which is a worship song concerning God the Father or Jesus Christ his son.

Then we have a scripture reading from the Old Testament.

Then we have a responsorial song that is usually a Psalm relating to the O.T. reading.

Then we have a second reading, and again another psalm directly relating to the reading.

Then we have a gospel reading.

Then we have the homily which relates to one of the scripture readings.

Then we sing another worship song directed to God or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, and take up an offering.

Then we say the Apostles Creed as a group. Then we have communion, celebrating the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.

Then we consummate the service with yet another worship song directed to God the Father, His son, Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit.

Please tell me what part of the service you consider pagan?

I have read articles like the above many times. Yes, there were hundreds of Mystery Babylon religions being practiced at the time of Christ's life, and even prior. Many of these cults held to beliefs that "foreshadowed" and sometimes replicated Christian beliefs. Satan often tries to duplicate the holy, just like the EU is doing NOW!

Satan despises the Mother of Jesus, and mocks her as well as her son with the use of the 12 symbol star (which BTW could be a mockery of Israel as well). Mary has NOT taken over the Roman Catholic Church, nor will she EVER. She is precious to us because she's precious to HIM! She is a creature who had a special dispensation of grace to carry out a remarkable feat. She DOES NOT DESERVE OUR WORSHIP, nor will she ever deserve our worship. Worship of anyone other than God is strictly prohibited by our Catechism. But she deserves our thanks for saying "yes" to God the Father.

Everyone blames Constantine for making Christianity the state religion. For centuries prior to that, Christianity was a blight on humanity. Christians went to the gallows, they fed the empty belly of ravenous lions, they were set on fire to be used as human torches. If Constantine had not "legitimized" Christianity, what do you suppose would have happened? Christians would have gone on being persecuted to tortorous death ENDLESSLY.

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, God allowed Constantine to "legitimize" Christianity so that His people could live in this world in some semblence of peace until He returns?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 21, 2004.

If I could prove to you that world political leaders for over a century have participated in a pagan Mystery Babylonian rite whereby they have mock sacrifices of human beings, how would that play into the whole One World Government, EU/UN thing in your view, or would it? And if the above scenario were true, would that in any way be a fullfillment, or partial fullfillment of the "Mystery Babylon, that Great Harlot" referenced in Revelations?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 21, 2004.

Faith admit it! You have your eyes and mind burried in that Hislop book. You are believing everything that has been conjectured by Hislop. Every issues you have made is almost an exact quote from that book.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 22, 2004.

Gail..,

The contrast between Catholicism and what the Bible teaches could not be greater than with regard to the *alleged* sacrifice of the Mass. That difference is exposed with great clarity in the distinction which the Bible emphasizes between the one sacrifice Christ made of Himself and the continual Old Testament sacrifices which had to be repeated daily.

The repetition of the Old Testament sacrifices is given as proof that they were insufficient and could not pay for sin..,and the fact that Christ was offered once for all is given as proof that His sacrifice was sufficient and need never be repeated.

The Mass must be repeated. If once is not enough, then neither is a million times. Can the Church say how many said Masses would be enough to get anyone out of purgatory?

The Mass is about Christ being sacrificed over and over again for *more* forgiveness of sin., as though His one time act was incomplete or something. If the Church needs to do this., then Christ's sacrifice at Calvary was obviously only a partial payment--yet the Bible says that He paid the full penalty.

Whether you call this sacrifice a renewal, a repetition, reenactment, or re-presentation.., it is impossible, because it is totalliy inadequate. Otherwise it wouldn't need to be repeated.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (present possession) everlasting life."

This is a once-for-all act when we place our faith in what Christ has already done. The moment a person believes on Christ and what He accomplished at Calvary-- he or she receives forgiveness of sins and *everlasting life* as a free gift of God's grace.

Clearly, a person who has received everlasting life by once believing- -need never repeat that act. Communion is done in rememberance of that once-for-all sacrifice. Once was sufficient., otherwise everlasting life was misnamed, because something that is everlasting does not need to be renewed.

Furthermore--the Bible says that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin....so how can an unbloody do-again ever be capable of forgiving any sin at all?

No--it is done.., finished!!

The Mass, as far as I am concerned--is totally insufficient and incapable of anything but insulting our Lord.

Consider the extremes to which the Catholic Church has gone to to protect the *host* which it believes is the literal body and blood of Jesus. This is where the paganism enters in. The Church has been known to parade this wafer around in a monstrance in extravagant pageantry through the streets on special festivals...

What does such pagan pageantry with its gold encrusted crosses and rich jewels have to do with Calvary anyway??

Based on a crucial interpretive mistake--the Catholic Church insists that the bread and wine is literally Christ, and this has lead to the biggest fraudulent claim of all- that the Roman Church alone has Christ--and that the priests can somehow call him down onto the altar- -and can then re-offer him back up to God--on the many altars all over the world--for more forgiveness of sins and early release from purgatory. Wasn't Christ's one time offer enough?

Have you ever considered the fact that the Bible says that Christ will never see decay?? Yet, those little wafers will grow moldy in a short period of time? Is Transubstantiation a Christian teaching or a pagan idea?

Yes, I remeber Church quite well. I still have to be inside Catholic Church every now and again for a wedding, funeral or baptism. But now, when I'm in there--I feel eery. The chanting that goes on reminds me of satanic worship. What does the Bible say about chanting and repetetive mumbling? I can still--to this day--chant and keep right up with all the exact words and motions needed at any given moment during the Mass.

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Matt. 6:7-8

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 22, 2004.

Faith said:

"The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place."

She also said: “Revelation 18 lays down the requirements of this woman. It describes her as being intimately involved with the God of the Bible--but she has committed fornication and adultery against Him.” OK then, below is the text from Chapter 18 of KJV (!!!), let’s go through that line by line and discover this “intimate” relationship between the whore and God.

Let’s do it verse by verse because Faith HAS ASSURED ME that it is there.

[1] And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

Nothing here.

[2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Nor here.

[3] For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Nor here. Kings have committed fornication with here, but then she is a whore.

No evidence of any relationship with God.

[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

No relationship with God here.

[5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Nope. Her sins are piled up to the sky. God has noted her sins.

NO evidence of an “intimate” relationship with God – or ANY relationship for that matter.

[6] Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Nope.

[7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Nope.

Interesting point though, she considers herself a Queen but not a widow, ergo a married Queen? But to whom is she married and to whom is she Queen?

More on that later.

[8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Nothing here.

[9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Nope. Just more fornication by Kings.

[10] Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Nope.

[11] And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Nope.

[12] The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

Nope.

[13] And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

Nope.

[14] And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

Nope.

[15] The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

Nope.

[16] And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Nope. Not looking too good for you, Faith, is it?!?!?!?!

[17] For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

Nope.

[18] And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Nope.

[19] And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Nope.

[20] Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Nope.

[21] And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Nope.

[22] And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Nope.

[23] And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Nope.

[24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Nope.

Oh dear, Faith, no “intimate” relationship with God. You are just making this all up, aren’t you ;-))))

Well, let’s try to manufacture one. Let me help you out here, if I can:

(a) We know the whore is not a widow (v7), she is therefore married. Well heck, the Church is the Bride of Christ!!! That’s what the Catechism says (PS Faith, its also in the Bible, see Eph 5:32; 3:9-11; 5:25-27 & Col 1:27).

(b) BUT is the Church also a Queen – because this is the other requirement of v7? Well, mmm, aha, Catholics call Mary the “Queen” of Heaven.

(c) BUT hang on, she is not the Church. Mmmmm, dang, she is Jesus’ Mother, how can He marry her – that’s impossible, surely.

(d) AND the Catechism at 963 – 970 makes it clear that Mary is the Mother of the Church.

(e) DRAT & DANG.

Well, ….., there you have it Faith, Chapter 18 of the protestant bible demonstrates NO relationship, not just no “intimate” relationship but NO relationship between God and the whore.

You told me this was obvious from Chapter 18. There is NOTHING of the sort in Chapter 18.

You are making this all up. QED.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 22, 2004.

PS Faith

i even used KJV to prove you wrong. i also cross-checked against Rheims, NAB and RSV to see fi there was anything in those texts that might help you. there isn't.

you should apologise now.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 22, 2004.

Faith?

Is there an apology underneath that sheep's clothing?

You are leading people into falsehoods and blasphemy against God.

It would be best to rethink your indoctrination against the Church. Take that Hislop mess of a book and use it for a door stop or something.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 22, 2004.

Jesus and Mary are not Nimrod and his mother. You are not making an attack on the Catholic Church; you are making an attack on Christianity as a whole, including the Protestant systems.

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 22, 2004.

Elpidio may have what is considered heresy, but he doesn't go to the extreme of making the Holy Family a Pagan Family. I don't believe that even Elpidio would embrace your hatred towards the Church. Criticism is one thing, but flat out degredation towards the Church is really a serious condition that I would not want to find myself in.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 22, 2004.

Sorry for using your name in this, Elpidio. Can we at least agree that Jesus is in Heaven and that He was sent by God for our Salvation? We can always refine our theology as time passes.

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 22, 2004.

Really Ian..

[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

No relationship with God here.

Come out of her my people equals no relationship with God??? Clearly--God is calling believers out of her [this religious institution based in the city on seven hills!] *****************************************************

[9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Nope. Just more fornication by Kings.

Sorry Ian--but the woman is guilty of fornication too. Fornication in this respect is about a spiritual relationship. For the kings to commit fornication with her means that they are not rightfully in a relationship with her spiritually.., but have entered into one-- wrongfully. She too, should not be involved with them--but is...

Why shouldn't she be involved with kings of the earth? Because she is suppose to be representing God. ****************************************************

[7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Nope.

Really?? You don't recognize the claim to "sit as queen" to be the very claim of Catholic Mary? Mary would have to be God's wife I suppose.., though I disagree with Catholic theology. They claim she remained a virgin and never married to be faithful to God. **********************************************

[16] And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Nope. Not looking too good for you, Faith, is it?!?!?!?!

You don't recognize Vatican City in this? What color do your priests and popes wear? *************************************************************

[23] And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Nope.

Really? Again., you can't see the connection? Who is the light of the world? Who are the bride and the bridegroom? What religion deceives all nations by her false doctrines that claim mystery and magic like turning bread and wine into Jesus? *******************************************

[24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Nope

Come on now Ian....... What about the Crusades and the Inquisition? Don't forget that there is no real difference between Rome and Roman Catholicism.., Emporers were popes and popes were emporers at one time...Babylonianism is the culprit--to which Roman Catholicism bought into.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 22, 2004.

Tjhis is what you said:

"The point is that this whore cannot commit adultery against God unless she is in a relationship with Him in the first place."

And

“Revelation 18 lays down the requirements of this woman. It describes her as being intimately involved with the God of the Bible- -but she has committed fornication and adultery against Him.”

i have shown you that there is NO relationship between God and the whore.

so where is the INTIMATE relationship that you allege, Faith?

you are de-bunked, game set and match. using the KJV!!!!!

you should apologise.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 22, 2004.

I am sorry Ian--if you can't keep up with me.

But your inability to *see* what I do, does not make me wrong.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 22, 2004.

Faith

the problem is that

1 i can see EXACTLY what you are doing

WHEREAS

2 you do not.

you are de-bunked, game set and match. using the KJV!!!!!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 22, 2004.

"Come out of her my people" = "Be ye in the world but not of the world."

That scripture you quote, Faith, is talking about the WORLD. Just like Tyre, so is Babylon . . . materialistic, hedonistic, lovers of self rather than lovers of God, greedy, rebellious, lusters of the flesh. All of these things are what we are to come out of; i.e., the WORLD and the lusts thereof!

I have already proven to you by scripture that God does refer to specific peoples as "harlot" without HAVING BEEN IN RELATIONSHIP. Your argument concerning spiritual adultery is completely without biblical foundation.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 22, 2004.

Ian... If you haven't anything intelligible to add to this half-baked debate- -I will consider us done...okay?

I would rather engage in something theological--but since you aren't willing or able--we really can't get anywhere.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 22, 2004.

PS Faith

hopefully tomorrow, but maybe later, i will dissect yr last post (Freudian?) and publicly reveal the OBFUSCATION and the ILLOGIC.

we must keep true to the debate Faith.

God Bless.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 22, 2004.

I won't hold my breath on that Ian. I have seen your idea of debate....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 22, 2004.

Gail..,

The verses in Revelation 18 clearly accuse the harlot of fornication-- which is spiritual adultery--since a city couldn't possible engage in literal sexual adultery.

Do your other harlots find themselves accused of fornication?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 22, 2004.

Actually Strong's says that "fornication" is rendered metaphorically of idolotry in this instance. Which is exactly what Tyre is accused of, a people who WERE NOT THE PEOPLE OF GOD! This is exactly what Nineveh is accused of (harlotry) who were NOT THE PEOPLE OF GOD, and NEVER HAD A COVENANTAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM! You cannot make the case that God was speaking to a covenantal people by the use of the word "fornicate."

Reading on through Rev 17 and 18, "the kings of the earth have committed fornication (or idolotry) with her (the harlot)" The harlot being a metaphor for someone or something who will do anything for money, power, lust, etc.

What strikes me as very odd is that in the first several chapters of Revelations we see Jesus directly addressing the "church(es)" with clear rebukes and in no uncertain terms. When God directs rebukes in the O.T. towards Israel, we see, again, a direct rebuke at a specifically named people. Yet, in these chapters (Rev 17 and 18) the only possible way you can make the "woman" the Church, is because of one word; i.e. "fornication" (idolotry), which again is used manifold times in the O.T. of certain non-covenantal peoples.

Why didn't God direct His rebuke in no uncertain terms (like he does EVERYWHERE ELSE), to the Church? Why didn't He say, "and this I say to the Church?" It's simple. He was not talking to the Church. If He had been, He would have said so.

Also, I think in previous discussions you accuse the Church as being the "woman" who rides the beast. Revelations 17:18 "And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth." DOMINION OVER ALL THE KINGS OF THE EARTH!!! That's a lot of power. How is she (the Church) going to accomplish such a feat? You really believe that the EU, the UN, the US and all other countries in the world are going to give the Church dominion over them? GET REAL!!!

Revelations goes on to describe how the kings of the earth have been made rich from her wealth. How does that happen? Rich in what way? The Church is going to make the rest of the world rich . . .? No, no, no. The Church is not Babylon. Babylon is a metaphor for the worldly secular system, One-World-Government we see already being put into place, with the word "God," The 10 Commandments, all references to Jesus being bleached from its lips. We see it happening in America NOW!!! It has already happened in Europe and yet you say the Church, who preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified is going to gain DOMINION OVER ALL THE EARTH!

With all due respect, your speculations are ludicrous.

Gotsta go,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 22, 2004.

Gail: What strikes me as very odd is that in the first several chapters of Revelations we see Jesus directly addressing the "church(es)" with clear rebukes and in no uncertain terms.

(Earlier in this thread it was mentioned, too)
rod: Could the "Seven Hills" actually be referring to the seven churches of Asia (Rev. 1:4)?

Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea.

...........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 23, 2004.

So we come full circle....

The last identifying characteristic that John was given concerning the woman astride the beast was that she was a city "which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (Revelation 17:18).

Could there be a city that actually reigns over the governments of the world? History bears witness that there was indeed such a city, and only one.

That city was, of course, Rome, after its bishops began to call themselves popes and, claiming to be the successors of the Ceasars, took it upon themselves the imperial powers of worldwide sovereignty.

Consider, for example, the arrogant imperialism of Pope Alexander III (1159-81). Declaring that "the power of the popes is superior to that of princes," Alexander excommunicated Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor, King of Germany and Italy. Attempting to chastise the pope, Frederick's forces were defeated by the pope's army.

The chastened emperor came to Venice to beg for forgiveness and absolution, promising to: "submit always to the Roman Church." Imagine a church ruling the world by military might!!

Fortunatus Ulmas, a Catholic historian, enthusiastically described the scene:

When the emperor arrived in the presense of the pope, he laid aside his imperial mantle, and knelt on both knees, with his breast on the earth. Alexander advanced and placed his foot on his neck, while the cardinals thundered forth in loud tones, "Thou shalt tread upon the cockatrice, and crush the lion and the dragon."...

The next day Frederick Barbarossa...kissed the feet of Alexander, and, on foot, led his horse by the bridle as he returned from solemn mass, to the pontifical palace...

The papacy had now risen to a height of grandeur and power which it had never reached before. The sword of Peter had conquered the sword of Ceasar!

But as a swordsman, Peter had been signally inept: Aiming to cut off a head, he had instead severed an ear. Christ rebuked His erring disciple., healed the ear, and then allowed the armed band to lead Him captive on His way to the cross.

The early church knew full well that Christians did not weild sword or spear in defense of Christ. His kingdom, which is "not of this world," must first be established in the hearts of those who believe in Him as the Savior who died for their sins. These true disciples follow in His path of rejection, suffering and death.

Here is the question:

How then did those who called themselves vicars of Christ reach such a worldly pinnacle whereby they could command emperors, defeat their armies with a sword, and place a foot upon the neck of a vanquished sovereign??

And whose to say, Gail--that the Roman Catholic church--which will be even more apostate in the endtimes than it was back then--can't again rise to this sort of power? The Bible says that an apostate religion does rise up...so., all in good time, I suppose.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 23, 2004.

Faith, as I said before, it is crucial that we stick to the point at hand. You originally made these statements: “Revelation 18 lays down the requirements of this woman. It describes her as being intimately involved with the God of the Bible- -but she has committed fornication and adultery against Him.” The second sentence in particular stinks of intellectual dishonesty. Taking those verses to which you added comments yesterday: [4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Ian: No relationship with God here. Faith: Come out of her my people equals no relationship with God??? Clearly--God is calling believers out of her [this religious institution based in the city on seven hills!] Ian: Faith, please, God may have a relationship with the people but there is NO sign WHATSOEVER of a relationship with the City. ***************************************************** [9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Ian: Nope. Just more fornication by Kings. Faith: Sorry Ian--but the woman is guilty of fornication too. Fornication in this respect is about a spiritual relationship. For the kings to commit fornication with her means that they are not rightfully in a relationship with her spiritually.., but have entered into one-- wrongfully. She too, should not be involved with them--but is... Why shouldn't she be involved with kings of the earth? Because she is suppose to be representing God.

Ian: (1) The woman is a whore for goodness sake!! What does that mean?!?!?! She’s a virgin?!?!?!? Of course not. She (the City) is “prostituting herself” and sinning too. That’s abundantly clear from Scripture. (2) More importantly, there is nothing here that signifies a relationship between the whore-City and God. Nothing at all.

**************************************************** [7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Ian: Nope. Faith: Really?? You don't recognize the claim to "sit as queen" to be the very claim of Catholic Mary? Mary would have to be God's wife I suppose.., though I disagree with Catholic theology. They claim she remained a virgin and never married to be faithful to God. Ian: this is where you start to lie about Catholic doctrine. As I explained yesterday, the Church is the Spotless Bride of the Lamb (see Scripture) so it’s open to you to argue that the whore is the Church (but you then contradict other Scripture, btw). However, this again smacks of intellectual dishonesty for the following reasons:

1 the Church makes no claim to be Queen of anything. 2 Mary, the Queen of Heaven, is not the Church. She certainly cannot be married to God as she is His Mother.

Furthermore, if the other person in this relationship can die, and leave the whore a widow, do you believe that God is mortal?!?!?!?! You’re really pushing the boat out here, Faith. ********************************************** [16] And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! Ian: Nope. Not looking too good for you, Faith, is it?!?!?!?! Faith: You don't recognize Vatican City in this? What color do your priests and popes wear? Ian: what did the Roman senators etc wear?!?!?!?! Anyways, there is simply nothing in this verse that signifies a relationship between the whore-City and God. You make an assumption – namely that the City is the Church – but, for all the reasons given before, that assumption is incorrect. THEN, on the BASIS of that assumption, you establish a relationship. This is irrational. The verse does not suggest or imply a relationship between the whore-City and God: you do. ************************************************************* [23] And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. Ian: Nope. Faith: Really? Again., you can't see the connection? Who is the light of the world? Who are the bride and the bridegroom? What religion deceives all nations by her false doctrines that claim mystery and magic like turning bread and wine into Jesus?

Ian: Exactly the same again Faith. There is NOTHING in this verse that signifies a relationship between the whore-City and God. You make an irrational assumption – namely that the City is the Church – but, for all the reasons given before, that assumption is incorrect. THEN, on the BASIS of that assumption, you establish a relationship. This is irrational. You are erroneously assuming there to be a relationship. The verse does not suggest or imply a relationship between the whore- City and God: you do. Furthermore, what do you understand by the reference to “bride and the bridegroom”?!?!

******************************************* [24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Ian: Nope Faith: Come on now Ian....... What about the Crusades and the Inquisition? Don't forget that there is no real difference between Rome and Roman Catholicism.., Emporers were popes and popes were emporers at one time...Babylonianism is the culprit--to which Roman Catholicism bought into. Ian: Exactly the same error. You ASSUME the relationship. Catholic DOCTRINE is pure as the driven snow. It is guaranteed to be so. It is because the Church eventually triumphed over the Roman Empire that you have a Bible. If it had gone the other way, there would be no Bible and no Christianity. The Romans did their level best to destroy it. The Church, bit by bit, converted pagan Roman practice to Christian practice. Where, for goodness sake, do you think Christmas Day (the Nativity) came from?

I find this kind of general lack of awareness simply stultifying. The Romans were by far the greatest threat to Christianity.

So TO SUMMARISE, the following statement is incorrect: “Revelation 18 lays down the requirements of this woman. It describes her as being intimately involved with the God of the Bible- -but she has committed fornication and adultery against Him.”

BECAUSE it quite clearly does NOT “describes her as being intimately involved with the God of the Bible”. In fact, on the face of it, there is NO suggestion of any “relationship”.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 23, 2004.

REPOSTED WITH LINE SPACING.

Faith, as I said before, it is crucial that we stick to the point at hand. You originally made these statements:

“Revelation 18 lays down the requirements of this woman. It describes her as being intimately involved with the God of the Bible- -but she has committed fornication and adultery against Him.”

The second sentence in particular stinks of intellectual dishonesty.

Taking those verses to which you added comments yesterday:

[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Ian: No relationship with God here.

Faith: Come out of her my people equals no relationship with God??? Clearly--God is calling believers out of her [this religious institution based in the city on seven hills!]

Ian: Faith, please, God may have a relationship with the people but there is NO sign WHATSOEVER of a relationship with the City.

*****************************************************

[9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Ian: Nope. Just more fornication by Kings.

Faith: Sorry Ian--but the woman is guilty of fornication too. Fornication in this respect is about a spiritual relationship. For the kings to commit fornication with her means that they are not rightfully in a relationship with her spiritually.., but have entered into one-- wrongfully. She too, should not be involved with them--but is...

Why shouldn't she be involved with kings of the earth? Because she is suppose to be representing God.

Ian: (1) The woman is a whore for goodness sake!! What does that mean?!?!?! She’s a virgin?!?!?!? Of course not. She (the City) is “prostituting herself” and sinning too. That’s abundantly clear from Scripture. (2) More importantly, there is nothing here that signifies a relationship between the whore-City and God. Nothing at all.

****************************************************

[7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Ian: Nope.

Faith: Really?? You don't recognize the claim to "sit as queen" to be the very claim of Catholic Mary? Mary would have to be God's wife I suppose.., though I disagree with Catholic theology. They claim she remained a virgin and never married to be faithful to God.

Ian: this is where you start to lie about Catholic doctrine. As I explained yesterday, the Church is the Spotless Bride of the Lamb (see Scripture) so it’s open to you to argue that the whore is the Church (but you then contradict other Scripture, btw). However, this again smacks of intellectual dishonesty for the following reasons:

1 the Church makes no claim to be Queen of anything.

2 Mary, the Queen of Heaven, is not the Church. She certainly cannot be married to God as she is His Mother.

Furthermore, if the other person in this relationship can die, and leave the whore a widow, do you believe that God is mortal?!?!?!?! You’re really pushing the boat out here, Faith.

**********************************************

[16] And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Ian: Nope. Not looking too good for you, Faith, is it?!?!?!?!

Faith: You don't recognize Vatican City in this? What color do your priests and popes wear?

Ian: what did the Roman senators etc wear?!?!?!?!

Anyways, there is simply nothing in this verse that signifies a relationship between the whore-City and God. You make an assumption – namely that the City is the Church – but, for all the reasons given before, that assumption is incorrect. THEN, on the BASIS of that assumption, you establish a relationship. This is irrational. The verse does not suggest or imply a relationship between the whore-City and God: you do.

*************************************************************

[23] And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Ian: Nope.

Faith: Really? Again., you can't see the connection? Who is the light of the world? Who are the bride and the bridegroom? What religion deceives all nations by her false doctrines that claim mystery and magic like turning bread and wine into Jesus?

Ian: Exactly the same again Faith. There is NOTHING in this verse that signifies a relationship between the whore-City and God. You make an irrational assumption – namely that the City is the Church – but, for all the reasons given before, that assumption is incorrect. THEN, on the BASIS of that assumption, you establish a relationship. This is irrational. You are erroneously assuming there to be a relationship.

The verse does not suggest or imply a relationship between the whore- City and God: you do.

Furthermore, what do you understand by the reference to “bride and the bridegroom”?!?!

*******************************************

[24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Ian: Nope

Faith: Come on now Ian....... What about the Crusades and the Inquisition? Don't forget that there is no real difference between Rome and Roman Catholicism.., Emporers were popes and popes were emporers at one time...Babylonianism is the culprit--to which Roman Catholicism bought into.

Ian: Exactly the same error. You ASSUME the relationship. Catholic DOCTRINE is pure as the driven snow. It is guaranteed to be so. It is because the Church eventually triumphed over the Roman Empire that you have a Bible. If it had gone the other way, there would be no Bible and no Christianity. The Romans did their level best to destroy it. The Church, bit by bit, converted pagan Roman practice to Christian practice. Where, for goodness sake, do you think Christmas Day (the Nativity) came from? I find this kind of general lack of awareness simply stultifying.

So TO SUMMARISE, the following statement is incorrect:

“Revelation 18 lays down the requirements of this woman. It describes her as being intimately involved with the God of the Bible- -but she has committed fornication and adultery against Him.”

BECAUSE it quite clearly does NOT “describes her as being intimately involved with the God of the Bible”. In fact, on the face of it, there is NO suggestion of any “relationship”.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 23, 2004.

Well Ian--

John did say that this calls for a mind of wisdom... You can't just declare that what I see is wrong, just because you don't like it.

How can Mary deliver God's Son and be God's mother at the same time?

I never said Mary was the Church--I said that she represents the Church.

Ian: Faith, please, God may have a relationship with the people but there is NO sign WHATSOEVER of a relationship with the City.

The way I see it Ian--a city would just be a place without people. The Bible refers to this city as a her--so it is a body., and I think it is a religious body.

*****************************************************

Ian: (1) The woman is a whore for goodness sake!! What does that mean?!?!?! She’s a virgin?!?!?!? Of course not. She (the City) is “prostituting herself” and sinning too. That’s abundantly clear from Scripture. Exactly Ian.., exactly! This is why she is being judged.

(2) More importantly, there is nothing here that signifies a relationship between the whore-City and God. Nothing at all.

Well, we will just have to disagree then...

**************************************************** Ian: this is where you start to lie about Catholic doctrine. As I explained yesterday, the Church is the Spotless Bride of the Lamb (see Scripture) so it’s open to you to argue that the whore is the Church (but you then contradict other Scripture, btw). However, this again smacks of intellectual dishonesty for the following reasons:

1 the Church makes no claim to be Queen of anything.

No., the Church claims that their Mary is queen of heaven though...

2 Mary, the Queen of Heaven, is not the Church. She certainly cannot be married to God as she is His Mother.

Confusing really--isn't Catholic Mary the Mother of your Church? And isn't God the Father? And isn't Jesus their Son?

Furthermore, if the other person in this relationship can die, and leave the whore a widow, do you believe that God is mortal?!?!?!?! You’re really pushing the boat out here, Faith.

This Mary says she is not a widow.

Don't confuse what I am saying with what I believe either--Ian. I do not believe that this woman is the real Mary of the Bible. I believe she is a counterfeit!

**********************************************

Ian: what did the Roman senators etc wear?!?!?!?!

Is there a difference?

Anyways, there is simply nothing in this verse that signifies a relationship between the whore-City and God. You make an assumption – namely that the City is the Church – but, for all the reasons given before, that assumption is incorrect. THEN, on the BASIS of that assumption, you establish a relationship. This is irrational. The verse does not suggest or imply a relationship between the whore-City and God: you do.

There would have to be a relationship in order that this woman could offend God with fornication.

Catholic DOCTRINE is pure as the driven snow.

Now whose making assumptions?

It is guaranteed to be so. It is because the Church eventually triumphed over the Roman Empire that you have a Bible.

Really? Lol!!

I don't suppose God had anything to do with why we have the Scriptures?

If it had gone the other way, there would be no Bible and no Christianity.

Wow!! So little faith you have.....

The Romans did their level best to destroy it. The Church, bit by bit, converted pagan Roman practice to Christian practice. Where, for goodness sake, do you think Christmas Day (the Nativity) came from? I find this kind of general lack of awareness simply stultifying.

Roman Catholicism is a blend of Christianity and babylonianism. Rome never really left behind any of its pagan ways--they just incorporated them into Christianity. Christmas Day--December 25 is actually a pagan Winter Soltice celebration!

Stultifying?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 23, 2004.

Faith

throughout yr posts there is a constant mis-use of the word "fornication".

fyi:

fornication = pre-marital sex

adultery = sex by a married person with someone other than the spouse

prostitution = sex acts for money or money's worth

each is a sin against God. and you do not have to be married to God to sin against Him by committing adultery. each and every act of adultery is a sin against God, no matter who the adulterer.

anyways, i have made my point. Chapter 18 does not suggest a link between God and the whore. you do.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 23, 2004.

Fornication.., as I have said.., is sexual adultery when talking about the flesh...but since a city cannot literally have sex--this is a spiritual fornication. This woman supposedly belongs to God--but she's in bed with the kings of the earth. She is cheating on God.

If she didn't have a spiritual connection to God--he would not be accusing her of fornication.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 23, 2004.

Believers, non-believers, and the lost all have a connection with God.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 23, 2004.

Faith

every fornicator sins against God.

there is NOTHING in the Apocalypse that suggests a "relationship" between the whore and God. this has been shown above. its all in your imagination.

the whore is a City. we know that from St John, plain and simple. if it were an apostate church, would he not have said so.

and if it were an apostate Church, well i can think of plenty!!!!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 23, 2004.

Faith, was Niniveh and Tyre in the OT also "married to God," metaphorically, of course?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 23, 2004.

"since a city cannot literally have sex....This woman supposedly belongs to God"

the point you keep missing.

the city NOWHERE is alleged to "belong to God".

and it is a City. that's what St John tells us.

you are inventing all of this.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 23, 2004.

In all my vast (cough) knowledge of end time events, here is one persepective I understand.

"The Antichrist" will rise up among a beast with 10 horns. He will "replace" somehow 3 kings. To him, dominion over these 10 horns.

If a horn referes to a king, which indeed i believe it does, then we see that "the antichrist" would have power over 10 kings. The EU currently has 15 nations, and is planning on adding 10 more by May. There is going to have to be some major mergers somehow with the UN and EU or perhaps even the Soviet Union. Of course this is all speculative.

Now, the EU also is trying to elect a president before the end of 2004. This kind of changes things. Instead of thinking as the world government made up of countries, perhaps it is built of 10 "unions" so to speak. the president of the EU could be considered 1 king , or horn which "the antichrist" could have power over.

Traditionally, the Holy roman Empire was headed by 2 people. A religious leader and a political leader. Prophecy theologians believe that "the antichrist" will be this political leader, and "the false prophet" will be the religious. This would mean that a Pope would be "the false prophet" of the newly formed Holy Roman Empire. Interestingly, the EU is rooted in the catholic faith, so it's just one perspective.

Btw, I heard a rumor that catholic "signs" indicate a bad Pope in the future. Any truth to this?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

What do you mean Europe is rooted in the Catholic Church? Europe cast off the RCC many many centuries ago! Began with Luther and continued on through Napoleon.

Anyway, the 10 kings you refer to; couldn't that be 10 peoples of any kind? Could "nations" be a metaphor? I dunno.

For instance, the families that own the Federal Reserve own half the world and are still gleaning for more power, more money. You know, the Rockefellers, the Bilderbergs, Rothchilds, etc. Ever study the Federal Reserve? REALLY CREEPY!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.

I'm speaking more of the period before the reformation.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

..and yes it could be individuals. that's why i mentioned a President of the EU. One individual, but with power over many. Again though, this is just speculation.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

Luke, the fall of Babylon (i.e. the Roman empire) certainly did fall a long long time ago. Then the Church was born. Some here on this board would have prefered the Roman empire to the Catholic Church, but nevertheless the prophetic elements in Revelations have already come to pass once, and do not need to come to pass again in order for the prophetic word to be made sure.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), April 01, 2004.

I understand that also. Just thought I'd add another perspective revelant to the question.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.