Question about sexuality within marriage

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Hi there...I came across this forum recently and saw that a lot of wonderful people were giving very good, well-thought-out advice, and I thought perhaps you could help me with my question.

My husband and I have been married since July (I am Catholic; he had his First Communion so is technically Catholic -- but only technically). I'm ashamed to say that we did have premarital sex, but a few months before the wedding, my faith started to reawaken, and I told him I wanted to wait till we were married. He was not thrilled but agreed.

After the wedding, I told him I wanted to start using NFP. Again, he was not nuts about the idea but agreed to it. This has put a bit of a crimp in our relations, as we have only about one "safe" week per month right now.

Now am I trying to persuade him that fooling around (e.g., oral sex) during my fertile times is not morally OK. He is pretty frustrated and confused -- especially since I'd told him before that two different priests had told me that it was OK for us to fool around, and now another is telling me that it's not OK. He thinks that this is a pretty subjective matter, since there doesn't seem to be a lot of agreement on it. (I didn't go into the whole thing about how priests often seem to disagree with a LOT of Church teaching nowadays -- even stuff that's more clearly defined than this!)

I told him that I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to pleasing God, but that I wanted to make him happy. I don't want to make presumptions as to God's mercy, but I don't know what else to do...except pray fervently for his conversion and for a cycle with more infertile days! Unfortunately, it feels like he is drifting farther and farther away from the Church...which he only had a tenuous link to, to begin with. I don't want to further alienate him by saying, "Sorry, honey, I won't do anything with you -- the Church says it's wrong."

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 02, 2004

Answers

Are there any support groups at your parish? Or any groups for young couples there at all? It would be good for you and him to make your Catholic experience more than going to mass on Sundays. Become part of the community, instead of being subject to it. Find the joy of the Church, not just the law.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 02, 2004.


I am part of a young adult group at my parish that is just starting up. However, my husband generally doesn't attend the events with me.

I like your comment about incorporating more of the joy of the Church into our marriage. I just wish I knew how to do it! I don't think he finds joy in the same things that I do (saying the rosary, reading books on the faith, etc.) ...we pray together and attend Mass together, but talking about my faith has never been something I excel at.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 02, 2004.


Faith,
She and her husband are Catholics and asking the advice about Catholic dogma with Catholics. If you would like an interfaith theological discussion in this area, I would love to delve into it with you, but not on this thread. Please give her her chance for a Catholic dialog with Catholics.

Thanks,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 02, 2004.


Faith, my husband believes in God and in Jesus Christ. Other than that, he isn't too clear what doctrines he believes in. But our parish worked with us extensively before our marriage -- as it works with all engaged couples -- and I have no doubt in my mind that I married a good and loving man. He has been very understanding about some of the radical changes I've undergone since we've met...especially considering that he met me as a wild party girl and is now married to a ultra-conservative Catholic!

I appreciate your sympathy, but please understand that the Church doesn't teach that oral sex is ALWAYS a sin -- just that it's a sin when used as an end to itself...i.e., not within the context of foreplay.

Furthermore, I have studied three methods of NFP extensively, and believe me, one week is about all we get at this point, if we want to be completely risk-free. But that's due to my own bizarre cycle, not due to the method, and I am working with a fertility instructor to try to decipher more "usable" days.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 03, 2004.


Hi AVC,

Is the problem really that your husband wants children at this time and you don't? Have you set a certain jointly agreed-upon timeframe with NFP (like 6 months, for example) or does he maybe think you don't ever want children?

Just thinking that the above might be the issue and your husband might not want to be that blunt about it.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 03, 2004.



Try heaping some praise on you husband for loving you enough to respect your needs. Work on other ways, outside of sexual intimacy to express your intimacy. Do him other nice things that you know he will enjoy.

And do what you can to help him grow spiritually, but don't force him.

You have been married only a short time, and are only just now getting used to each other. It will take a bit.

I would also suggest that if you feel the practice of NFP is totally jeopardizing your marriage, you should consider taking a few "chances" and letting God decide what is best as the outcome.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), January 03, 2004.


GT, we are both eagerly looking forward to being parents but agree that it is best if I am a stay-at-home mom -- which is beyond our financial means at the moment. It will probably be about three years before his income is sufficient to support both of us as well as a baby. We also have a lot of debt -- wedding bills, student loans, etc. -- that we are trying very hard to pay off.

So while a baby wouldn't be unwelcome right now, we would be stuck with using day care, which we would prefer to avoid. I don't believe in letting other people raise your children -- and I was in day care myself and HATED it!

Pat, I appreciate your advice. I often tell my husband how much I appreciate his understanding in these matters but could certainly stand to do so more often.

I am also looking for ways for us to grow spiritually together but am sort of at a loss. I am very cautious about being too pushy.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 03, 2004.


Hi AVC,

I can relate to your dilemma. I had been away from the Church for many years,... did what I wanted. It was marriage "late in life" that brought me back into the Church. Fortunately the Church I am affiliated with, was understanding and has been very supportive. They welcomed me back. I'm not all the way there, I don't do everything right, but I'm closer, "things" seem to be happening. Somehow the old saying "Rome wasn't built in a day" seems appropriate.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 03, 2004.


Dear AVC,

The Catholic members of this forum are absolutely right regarding the Church's stance on procreation. Oral sex may be used as foreplay but orally or manually "consummated" sex is another matter.

Like you, my wife (who is a devout Catholic) fooled around with one another in college. This included every means of consummation. This continued for 13 years of marriage (so 16 years). Over the course of our very strong marriage my wife went from a fallen away Catholic to a truly devout one. As an luke warm Episcopalian, I was happy to support her faith and attended mass with her and our 3 Catholic sons.

One day I returned from a trip ( I have gotten a job near her relatives) and was told that our sex life was going to change. Needless to say I was livid. I cursed the Vatican for intruding on my (an Episcopalian) bedroom. I wanted to seperate because I felt so betrayed. My wife of 13 years was speaking (confessing) to a man (priest) the most intimate details of my life.

To make a long story short I am in RCIA class and our marriage has never been better for BOTH of us. My advise is to deal with this now and not wait for 16 years. My wife and I married outside the Church and remarried in the Catholic Church 10 years later. We had no benefit of classes to discuss these issues.

God Bless, David

-- David (Catechumen) (dqf@cox.net), January 03, 2004.


Jmj
Hello, AVC.

I cannot recommend too strongly that you get in touch with the NFP-and-fertility experts at the "Couple to Couple League International" (ccli@ccli.org). The founders of CCLI (more than 30 years ago), John and Sheila Kippley and their colleagues have trained something like 100,000 couples in the Sympto-Thermal Method of NFP. The Kippleys and some younger couples who work with them are fantastic, down-to-earth, Catholic people who would be pleased to help you in your current circumstances, in various ways:

1. They could provide spiritual advice to you, concerning your mixed marriage and the strains inherent in it.
2. They would help you more accurately to interpret your charts, so that your periods of abstinence need not be so unusually long.
3. They would make every effort to work with you (via diet, etc.) to help you to have more regular cycles -- again decreasing your times of abstinence.
4. They would give you advice on the wisdom of delaying your first pregnancy.

AVC, I have been closely following the work of CCLI for almost 20 years, and I do not hesitate to predict that they will make a big positive difference in your life. They have lots of experience helping people in your situation. Their Internet site is at http://www.ccli.org/
Please take just five minutes to send them an initial e-mail message, and see how it goes from there.

God bless you.
John
PS: Thanks for being faithful to the Church's teachings and not being embarrassed to say so publicly. God will reward you for this.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 03, 2004.



David (dqf), thanks for your interesting account.

Were you not baptized as an Episcopalian? If you were, then I think that you are a "candidate." I think that a "catechumen" is an unbaptized person.

-- (?@?.?), January 03, 2004.


I was baptized and confirmed as an Episcopalian. I believe technically a Catechumen is to be baptized but as it means student it certainly fits me.

-- David F (dqf@cox.net), January 03, 2004.

Sounds really tough. Know that I am praying for you. A couple of thoughts: I highly recommend a book called "The Good News about Sex and Marriage", by Christopher West. It is straight forward Q&A style based on JPII theology of the Body. Share it with your husband. If he were on fire for the truth about human sexuality it would really change things. If possible get out to one of Christopher West's weekend seminars. He is a great speaker and can really move people. Third, do not answer this question on the board, but have you gone to confession about ALL the questionable things in your sexual life. I know from first hand experience that these things can linger on and do terrible damage to a marriage. Taking them to the Lord is the only answer. Encourage your husband to do the same. This might be very hard, and take years, but it is worth it.

Just some thoughts, God bless you Dano

-- Dan Garon (boethius61@yahoo.con), January 04, 2004.


Christopher West has some articles on his website: http://www.christopherwest.com/works.htm

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 04, 2004.


To AVC - a few resources you may already know about, but some great information on dealing with cycle irregularity and the importance of nutrition, body weight/balance, exercise, fluids, supplements, bedroom lighting, impact of stress, possible diseases & disorder etc for better cycles -

THe Art of Natural Family Planning, Chapter 31, by John F. & Sheila K. Kippley, Couple to Couple League

Fertility, Cycles & Nutrition, Marilyn Shannon

I am a newcomer to NFP, as only started with it after having a tubal reversal in October (thanks be to God!)....I was "born again" in my Catholic faith July 1999 and am working to be faithful to God and the Church's teachings in ALL areas of my life. The challenge now is waiting patiently for God to work on my husband's heart...DH is not a believer (yet) so after amazingly consenting to my tubal reversal surgery, and agreeing to use "natural methods" since I am Catholic, he continues to insist that we use NFP in a very conservative manner (i.e. he is adamant on NO MORE KIDS!). The Lord has shown me that being open to children is a huge part of my husband's future conversion, so I am just trying to be patient & not speak of my desire to be open to life & try to conceive a baby.

Just wanted to commend you & encourage you for seeking the truth about the God's plan for marriage & sexuality and to support you on the journey! Cindy Brown

-- Cindy Brown (cindybrown@gorge.net), January 04, 2004.



I appreciate everyone's encouragement and advice. My husband and I talked at length last night. He said he envies me my surety in my faith...he really WANTS to believe, but he doesn't and he can't make himself. It breaks my heart. I have been asking St. Monica to pray fervently for him.

Bill, I am familiar with Christopher West but have not read his book. I'm planning on reading it, though I don't know if my husband would do so. He is very stubborn and doesn't like to feel "pushed" in a certain direction spiritually. I am hoping that maybe I can find certain passages that I can read to him that would enlighten him as to why I feel the way I do, though.

Cindy and John, I've studied NFP extensively. I started with a Billings class that was required by our parish before we were married. I was pretty unhappy with the method and the instruction we received in it, though, so I learned sympto-thermal from "Taking Charge of Your Fertility." I liked that book a lot, because it is written from a secular perspective and did a lot to convince my husband of the effectiveness of NFP.

Right now, I'm learning the Creighton method from an instructor. My problem with sympto-thermal was that I have a pretty continuous mucous cycle, and Creighton can help with that. However, I'm still in the learning process and still discovering my cycles' abnormalities! I know things will improve in time.

Thanks for the info on the Couple-to-Couple League, though -- I didn't know that they provided services beyond teaching NFP classes. :)

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 04, 2004.


Forgot to add that yes, I have discussed this in the confessional. That's where I keep getting the confusing (and different) answers from various priests!

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 04, 2004.

AVC,
Creighton has a good reputation, but I've heard that it is very complex. When you write to CCL, please ask them to make you a subscriber to their monthly magazine. (I hope they still publish it.) When I was getting it, it had about 16 pages packed with information, suggestions, encouragements, letters, etc.. CCL has medical doctors and clergymen advising them.

Unfortunately, you are going to find differences among priests, because of differences in their training and in their personal fidelity to Church teaching.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), January 04, 2004.


J.F., I actually find Creighton the least complex of the three methods I've tried. The rules are very clearly defined; it's way less subjective than Billings. And STM didn't work well for me because I was always waking up in the middle of the night and throwing my waking temps off by not having slept long enough!

I will definitely check out the CCL magazine. I am also fortunate to belong to an NFP messageboard online that is wonderful and very supportive.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 04, 2004.


I don't blaim your husband for not like being forced into anything. I don't either. I found the beauty in the Church through a group of men in the Church. I am not sure if he would be interested in participating in a church group, or going on a retreat, but it might help.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 04, 2004.


AVC, The purpose of marriage is procreation. If you are not ready to procreate then you are not ready to marry. It's that simple.

It's bad enough for a couple to use NFP at any time during their marriage. But to use NFP from the get-go is proof that you were not ready to get married. I have been critical of the Church's overuse of annulments, but in your case I honestly believe that you and your husband are not in a valid marriage because you are not ready to accept the responsibility of having children.

I sympathize with your confusion over Church teaching. There has been nothing but chaos and anarchy in the Catholic Church since Vatican II. Traditional Catholic teaching denounces any form of birth control. Here are two articles you ought to read:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/6480/nfpintroduction.html

http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/ferrara3.htm

From the traditional Catholic viewpoint, if you and your husband are not ready to give yourselves freely to each other in the marital embrace and leave the rest up to God, then you and your husband are not ready to be married.

-- The Sane Trad (sanetrad@yahoo.com), January 05, 2004.


Frankly, I don't remember when I've been so offended. What makes you think that you know better than the Magisterium?

And as a Catholic who IS faithful to the Magisterium, I don't see where it teaches that one must be providentalist to be married.

In addition, my husband and I most CERTAINLY would be accepting of children. We just PREFER to wait so that I can be a stay-at-home mother.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 05, 2004.


Ouch!!! I didn't mean to offend you, AVC. I hope that you can overlook the blunt manner in which I express myself and try to understand the gist of what I am saying. Show this to your husband. Maybe he'll understand.

I think that you are right to want to be a stay-at-home mom. That's why you don't want to have any kids right now. That's fine. So why did you get married? The purpose of marriage is to procreate, and you're not ready to procreate. Why didn't you postpone your marriage until you and your husband were ready to have children?

Your husband married you thinking that he would have unrestricted relations with you. You then informed him -- AFTER YOU WERE MARRIED -- that your relations would be restricted to one week a month. That in itself makes your marriage vows null and void even under civil law, let alone Catholic law.

-- The Sane Trad (sanetrad@yahoo.com), January 05, 2004.


Because I don't believe the SOLE purpose of marriage is pro-creation. What about joining your soul to the one you love? After all, a marriage that turns out to produce no children because of infertility is no less worthy than a marriage that produces 10 children.

And I'm sorry, but I don't think for a single moment that my marriage is invalid. Show me where Church law says that we have to start having children right away. In fact, show me ANYthing from the Vatican that supports providentialism.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 05, 2004.


Mr. Trad,

I cannot believe you are giving out this advice. Are you married? I think not.

AVC is perfectly within the norms of Catholic marital relations. And she is now married, so what use at all are your comments about what she and her husband should/would/could have done. They are not relevant and they hurt, and do not not help.

And I totally disagree with you about putting off marriage until its absolutely time to have children. That is NOT the only good object of a marriage. There are other goods that can be cultivated, and only within marriage. So I disagree about putting things off.

If AVC and her husband came to the marriage with the plan to live NFP for a while, especially given that they are open to childran if they come along, this is a beautiful thing. And although I'm sure her husband may have mused about the idea of unrestricted sex, this is not at all the reality of married life. No happy couple have unrestricted sex. One or both are tired, sick, angry or whatever a great good part of the time.

Marital life practicing NFP for a long time is perfectly legitimate. It allows the couple to come to know each other better and confirm their love in each other. I would especially think its a great idea in the first year. After children come along, its not so easy to have those moments just between the man and wife.

And who are you to judge her? Something to think about. You come off like a bit of a pharisee.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), January 05, 2004.


The marriage is perfectly valid, whether you came to the marriage planning NFP or planning to have unrestricted sex.

The Trad man has no idea what he is talking about. Marriages are only invalid if one or both parties come to the marriage closed to the idea of ever having children.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), January 05, 2004.


AVC,

Also, if you don't want to be pushy about Catholicism, per se, with your husband, there are other ways to help invite the Holy Spirit into your souls.

For instance, there are many faith-neutral books about virtue that make for great reading and at the same time inspire a call to holiness. A really good one is "The Road Less Travelled" although ignore the section about "grace." The author is trying to define it with respect to luck or happenstance. There is also the book "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People".

Try reading them together, or a pick a chapter and both read that, and discuss it. Your marriage will get as much out of these discussions, as you will out of the books themselves.

Of course, the very best authors on all this stuff are usually Catholic. And only a Catholic author can delve deeply into the interchange between doctrine, theology and spiritual growth. Try giving him a copy of "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese. It will blow his mind because it is so readable and covers the entire Catholic catechism in a very insightful way.

God bless,

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), January 05, 2004.


Procreation is not the sole purpose of marriage, but it is the PRIMARY purpose of marriage. "The Holy Office, in 1944, in answer to an enquiry, re-asserted the traditional teaching, according to which the primary purpose of marriage is the generation and bringing-up of children, and according to which the secondary purposes of marriage are essentially subordinate to the primary one." (Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.462)

AVC and her husband entered into their marriage from the outset with no intention of fulfilling its primary purpose until sometime in the distant future. Children? Oh, yes. We'll get around to it, someday. To show how poorly catechized they are, they even engaged in oral sex (on the advice of two different priests!!!) during her fertile periods to frustrate procreation. This is not a chaste marriage. This couple has no idea of what constitutes a Catholic marriage. No wonder, considering the instruction they are getting from the priests.

There is nothing natural about "natural" family planning. Lovemaking must be scheduled like a NASA space launch, and if all systems aren't "go" when that narrow window of opportunity opens up then the blast-off must be postponed until next month. I'm certain that AVC's husband never agreed to something like that when he said, "I do."

-- The Sane Trad (sanetrad@yahoo.com), January 05, 2004.


From "Humanae Vitae":

"In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised, either by the deliberate and generous decision to raise a numerous family, or by the decision, made for grave motives and with due respect for the moral law, to avoid for the time being, or even for an indeterminate period, a new birth."

Since you don't appear to accept the Pope's authority -- which I do - - then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 05, 2004.


Not so fast, AVC. I think that you have a corrupted translation of Humanae Vitae. Here is the translation that I have, taken from the Vatican's website:

"With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time."

Do you see the difference? Your translation says that it's OK to use NFP to avoid having "a new birth." My translation says that it's OK to use NFP to avoid having "additional children."

NFP was never meant to be used at the outset of a marriage. If you are not ready for children then you are not ready for marriage. NFP was only meant for couples who already had children and could not afford additional children.

-- The Sane Trad (sanetrad@yahoo.com), January 06, 2004.


The translation I used was from EWTN's site, which I'm sure everyone would agree is an orthodox organization.

I will no longer be responding to anyone posting attacks on the validity of my marriage.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 06, 2004.


Hello, I would just like to say to AVC that my wife and I have talk about these issues for the past five years since both of us became Catholics.

I can understand that you wish to wait until you can afford to have more children so that you may stay at home with your child, I applaud you and your husband on this effort. I can tell you from experience it will be difficult no matter when you do it.

After discussing this with priests, lay people and between ourselves we have discovered that any sexual relations without the possibility of a child simply isn't in God's plan. Furthermore, NFP in the context of a marriage requires a "grave circumstance". Unfortunately I do not have a good definition of grave circumstance.

I just have one more point to make. Matt.6.26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?

I am by no means a bible scholar, however this passage has been very helpfully to my wife and I over the years and you know what, God has never let us down. We are not rich by any means but we trust God to take care of us and make sure we have a place to stay and food to eat. That I have transportation for me to go to work. That I have work. In return God has given us seven children ( I got the news of the last one this past Christmas, what a wonderful gift). I implore you to pray and talk about this with your husband. If you seek truth, you will find it.

Thy Kingdom Come

-- Steve Przepiora (steve@przepiora.org), January 06, 2004.


Jmj

Hello, Steve. You wrote:
"NFP in the context of a marriage requires a 'grave circumstance.'"

Given the current connotation of the word "grave" in American English -- i.e., "being of the most extreme seriousness" -- the phrase "grave circumstance" is not an accurate reflection of what Pope Paul VI taught in "Humanae vitae." I believe that the phrase "serious reason(s)" better reflects the pope's thinking (in today's American English), while others argue for even milder terminology. [Some of us had a lengthy debate about this subject on this thread not long ago.]

AVC, you may find that thread interesting, too.
The "Sane Trad" is not thinking with the Church, as you so well perceived. (That in itself disqualified the person from being called a "trad" -- i.e., fully united to the Catholic Tradition.) He/she is a bit off, and that can be more than "a bit" dangerous. Moreover, he/she is volatile, at first offending you, then being conciliatory, and then taking a second whack at you!

When you began to quote from HV, AVC, I thought you were going to quote the passage wherein the pope does not distinguish the bearing of children as the "primary purpose" of marriage, but instead speaks of the two "essential qualities" of marriage as "the unitive and the procreative" dimensions it has.

#12 ... the fundamental nature of the marriage act, while uniting husband and wife in the closest intimacy, also renders them capable of generating new life —- and this as a result of laws written into the actual nature of man and of woman. And if each of these essential qualities, the unitive and the procreative, is preserved, the use of marriage fully retains its sense of true mutual love and its ordination to the supreme responsibility of parenthood to which man is called.

The "Sane Trad" tried to argue that HV teaches that NFP can be used only after having a first child right after a couple gets married. However, that is not correct. Pope Paul VI's arguments in HV are a development of what Pope Pius XII taught in his famous 1951 "Allocution to Midwives" (as can be seen in the footnotes of HV). Notice especially the part I am emphasizing in this quotation from Pius XII's address:

The individual and society, the people and the State, the Church itself, depend for their existence, in the order established by God, on fruitful marriages. ... Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called "indications," may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive duty [to be fruitful] for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), January 06, 2004.


It is true that NFP can possibly be used for a selfish purpose. This can be a sin, more or less, but it in no way shape or form affects the validity of a Catholic marriage.

My wife, a great woman with whom I am unfortunately estranged, actually wrote a great article in Crisis magazine on this very topic. If you have access to Crisis archives, it appears in a 1992 Autumn issue entitled "The Adventure of Sacramental Love." We are fortunate to have three children. But we also practiced NFP at times.

The Trad person is a bit extreme, and erroneous on his interpretation of HV. But I would not say this person is dangerous.

It takes all types.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), January 06, 2004.


Hi AVC, If I may, I’d like to point out a few things that I think need to be addressed.

By your own admission you have changed the rules to your marriage in what would seem to be a rather drastic manner over a relatively short period of time and, without allowing your husband any substantial or meaningful say in these changes.

You readily admit your husband is at a different level of his faith than you are. This is understandable as no two people are alike when it comes to preparing yourself for your ultimate destiny - eternal and complete union with God.

Since your husband is not as passionate about the faith as your are at present you will require more compassion, understanding and patience with him than you would if he were. You wrote that you engaged in pre-marital sex and in doing so, you let him know that your principles versus your faith could be compromised under certain conditions. Now, after your faith has increased in a short period of time you are telling him the bar has been raised, that the standards for your marriage, set before your marriage, have been raised and with very little input from him. No wonder he’s frustrated and confused. This isn't what he bargained for before his marriage began.

When you told your husband shortly before your marriage that you wanted to wait, a few months seemed to him a small price to pay for your love. Maybe had he realised that even this subtle change in you was an indication that people continue to change throughout their lives and that you would continue to change throughout yours, he might have asked a few more questions and been a bit more thorough in determining just what he was getting into in marrying you.

I think your husband has some excellent qualities. You are a very fortunate woman. He seems to be very understanding and patient under extremely trying and frustrating circumstances; but there seems to be tell-tale signs of early wear in your marriage that need to be addressed to ensure both of you get out of it what you had both hoped for.

It was only after you wed, that you “told him” (your words) that you were going to start to use NFP. There seems to have been very little choice in the matter as far as he was concerned. Oral sex, NFP, and your faith are all issues that should have been discussed before the marriage so that both of you could enter into the marriage with eyes wide open knowing exactly what to expect. Based on what you’ve been saying it seems you are undergoing an ongoing metamorphosis of sorts with your faith, particularly after your wedding, while not giving your husband ample time to accept or even discuss theses changes with you in any meaningful way. It is very important at this juncture of your marriage for the both of you to keep the lines of communication open and to keep the concerns of the other first and foremost .

I am not surprised that your husband feels a “crimp” has been put on his lifestyle by limiting physical intimacy to only one week per month, particularly when he was given the impression the arrangement would be otherwise. Now, you’ve notified him that even oral sex without intercourse is no longer allowed. No wonder he’s confused and frustrated. He’s had very little say in what’s been going on in his marriage so far. Is this fair and reasonable? His frustration can be early signs of that unhappiness and dissatisfaction will surface in your marriage soon if the situation is not dealt with.

Adding further to your husband’s confusion are members of the clergy who in then past, haven’t always agreed with each other or have even agreed with what the Church teaches on the subject of sex within marriage.

Your husband needs to understand your faith the way you do. He needs to grasp the beauty of the faith the way you have. He has to be made to comprehend the changes that have taken place in you recently. Then and only then, will he begin to understand and appreciate what it is you want for both of you in this marriage - eternal happiness.

In light of all of this, may I suggest you will now have to be extremely careful not to preach to your husband given his present state. It will only drive him further away from what you want for him. If he begins to feel too much pressure or frustration he will begin to resent both you and your faith, and then ultimately his faith. He needs to be given a deeper understanding of what is taking place. In saying you prefer to “error on the side of caution when it comes to pleasing God” this could appear to him as preaching or being judgmental in that you’re implying his actions indicate he doesn’t hold the same feelings, that he doesnt want to please God - or in the very least, that he hasn’t given it much thought. It appears that you’ve been doing all of his thinking for him lately. You are in effect saying to him, he better get on your bandwagon for he seems all too willing to displease God by choosing some of these worldly pleasures over what He - God, really wants for the two of you. Your approach to the problem in this way will appear to your husband as condescending, demeaning and self-righteous.

When the Holy Spirit fills someone with grace at a deepening in their faith, this is always a critical moment in their lives and those around them, in that this additional grace can sometimes be detrimental if not channelled properly. If not controlled and harnessed, this abundance of grace can manifest itself in overzealousness and the individual can find himself/herself preaching to others and giving unsolicited advice about how to better themselves in life since it now has been made so crystal clear to them. To anyone around such a person it can be very trying to exercise patience and understanding while maintaining any sort of relationship, let alone a marriage.

AVC, what is needed on your part is a slow, methodical, non- confrontational and loving approach to educating your husband on how your faith is changing and in which direction you would like to see your marriage go because of it. After all, it’s his marriage too, he should get a say in how it’s going to flourish - shouldn’t he?

You are right in suggesting that prayer among other things will help. Prayer always helps. It brings you closer to God and in doing so, you become more like him and less like yourself. You’ve said that your husband seems to be “drifting further and further away from the Church”. I can tell you that it will only be a matter of time before he begins drifting further and further away from you as well unless you can establish a level of communication that you AND your husband become comfortable with, one where he feels he has equal say in all things affecting his marriage.

I am glad to hear that you are involved with your Church. Getting involved accomplishes many good things. It surrounds you with people who think the same way you do. I would invite your husband to join you in your participation but let him know he is under no pressure to comply. In setting a good example, over time, you will accomplish much more than nagging him to come along.

If you want your husband to change there are ways to accomplish this without coming out and demanding that he changes or advising him that YOU have made some decisions concerning new changes in your marriage that will affect him. If you want him to understand the Church’s position of oral sex, birth control, or other issues dealing with the Catholic faith, why not leave information, pamphlets, books or articles in strategic parts of the house where he is sure to read them, say in the bathroom or on the coffee table, or by the bed on the night stand? Set an example for him by living a good Christian/Catholic life. Attend mass during the week - don’t ask him to join you - he will in time. Go to confession frequently. Visit the Blessed Sacrament from time to time in a Church, prayer room or adoration chapel.

In light of all of these sudden and substantial changes in your marriage AVC I would suggest that you and your husband consult a priest about how these changes are affecting your marriage. I see some small cracks developing that if left unchecked could become major chasms. If your husband is reluctant to do this I would suggest that in the very least, you meet with your priest to learn of new ways in introducing changes to the relationship you have with your spouse in ways that he won’t feel so frustrated and ineffective as a partner in this spiritual holy union.



-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), January 07, 2004.


Thats very good advice Ed, and well stated.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), January 07, 2004.

Ed, thank you for taking the time to write such a long note. I will share it with my DH...he has been following the advice on this thread with interest.

You certainly are a very perceptive man! (And yes, I am very fortunate to have such a loving and understanding husband. God has blessed me greatly with him.)

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 07, 2004.


QUOTE: "The Trad person is a bit extreme, and erroneous on his interpretation of HV. But I would not say this person is dangerous."

COMMENT: No one said that he is "dangerous." People need to read more carefully! The original statement was: "He/she is a bit off, and that can be more than 'a bit' dangerous." Thus, the intent was not to call a certain person "dangerous," but to say that his/her failure to understand or to relay doctrine correctly can cause someone to get "dangerously" near (or all the way into) dissent or heresy.

QUOTE: "It takes all types."

COMMENT: No, it does not "take all types." That saying implies that mankind needs every "type" of person in its midst. The truth is that certain "types" are types that mankind doesn't need and that God doesn't even want to exist. Among these are the "extreme and erroneous."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), January 07, 2004.


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