Age of Accountability - Is it biblical?

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This is a thread to discuss the 'age of accountability'.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 22, 2003

Answers

No, the burden of proof FOR baptizing babies is on those who APPROVE OF IT for this FALSE DOCTRINE is NOT taught in the word of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 23, 2003.

Jeanie,

Faith ONLY comes by HEARING and HEARING by the word of God. (Romans 10:17).

An infant is NOT capable of having faith, so they are NOT suitable candidates for baptism.

An infant is also NOT capable of REPENTING of their sins, for they have NONE to remit.

An infant is also NOT capable of CONFESSING Christ.

An infant has committed NO sin, so they do NOT need to be baptized, for baptism WASHES away sin.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 23, 2003.


Jeanie,

We are born into sin, but Kevin thinks that we are born perfect like Adam. Check the original sin thread.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 23, 2003.


There is NOT one case of infant baptism in the New Testament, NO not one!!!

The Bible definition of sin refutes the false doctrine of original sin. Sin is an act. It is something that is done. It is NOT inherited. (1 John 3:4).

This is the process of becoming a sinner, Lust + enticement = temptation; Temptation + action = sin and spiritual death. (James 1:13- 15).

What child meets this pattern at birth?

The Bible teaches individual accountability and responsibility. (Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 14:12; 2 Corinthians 5:10).

Small children are portrayed in the Bible as being Innocent, Pure, and FREE from Sin. (Matthew 18:1-14; Psalm 127:3; Deuteronomy 1:39; 2 Samuel 12:22-23; Hebrews 12:9).

Infants DO NOT inherit sin (Ezekiel 18:20) and they are not accountable. (Deuteronomy 1:39).

Jesus' description of a person who is a good hearer in the parable of the sower in Luke 8:11-15 is in conflict with the idea of being totally depraved before conversion.

Jesus said that it is possible to have "an honest and good heart" prior to even hearing the word of God.

The Bible teaches: "have gone astray" NOT born astray, Isaiah 53:6; "gone out of the way" NOT born out of the right way, Romans 3:12; "become unprofitable" NOT born unprofitable, Romans 3:12; "man's heart is evil from his youth" NOT his birth, Genesis 8:21.

As for Psalm 51, David was born of sinful parents, but the sin was NOT his.

The reasoning behind the error of baptizing babies and infants is to remove "original sin" so that if they die they will go to heaven.

The Bible teaches each person is accountable to God for their own sins, NOT the sins of others.

The concept of "original sin" is foreign to Judaism.

We are not held responsible to God for Adam's sin. Babies are not born separated from God. Therefore there is no need to remove "original sin."

Baptizing an infant is an ATTEMPT to remove sin that is not there.

Sin is disobeying God's commands. Sin is falling short of His laws.

What command has a baby disobeyed? Babies are NOT lost.

The concept of "original sin" like "infant baptism" are FALSE TEACHINGS that prevent people from being baptized correctly. God calls or draws men to Jesus through the teaching of His word, the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14; John 6:44-45). As you and I hear that gospel message, it is then up to us to either receive it or reject it.

An infant is NOT capable of making that decision.

The Catholic Church and denominations who practice infant baptism are going beyond the doctrine of Christ (2 John 9).

Infant baptism makes the law of Christ of no effect. Jesus taught that every creature is to believe, repent, confess and be baptized, but Catholics and others who advocate infant baptism NULLIFY this command of Christ.

God says, "for he who comes to God must believe that He is." (Heb 11:6). Can one come to God without belief? Those who practice infant baptism most certainly are telling you that it is possible but God said that one who comes to God MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS. An infant CANNOT obey this command.

The only CORRECT doctrine on baptism, is that baptism is FOR the remission of sin. All other doctrines are NOT in accordance with the Word of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 24, 2003.


Exodus 20:5, "For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 26, 2003.


Kevin says that God does not hold the sins of the father against the children. How does he explain that passage?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 26, 2003.

Jeanie, you are confused about Romans. It teaches us that because of Adam's sin, that death entered into the world. That we are born into sin, and born with a sinful nature. Sin begins in the heart, not with Satan, and that is the "curse" that is upon us. We live in a fallen world because of Adam's sin, but we are not born fallen. David wrote that he was "brought forth in inequity" but this does not mean he was born with sin.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 29, 2003.

Only by humble faith in God can we enter His Holy Kingdom.

Children have this humble faith.

Therefore, children can be members of the Holy Kingdom of God.

If children are accepted as members of the Holy Kingdom, they should be Baptized as members.

We can choose between two possibilities:

1. Assume the child believes or can believe and treat him as a member of the Holy Family, discipling him in the Lord.

2. Assume the child does not have faith and treat him as a stranger to the Holy Family by evangelizing him until he is old enough to reason.

The Bible teaches, "There is none righteous, no not one."

It doesn't say, "There is no adult who has reached the age of accountability who is righteous, no not one."

The Bible is clear. Also, people misunderstand and think that God accounts Adam's first sin to us. That's a misunderstanding. We've inherited Adam's fallen flesh nature and the curse of death. If not, then children would never be subject to death and disease in their flesh. The curse of God is universal.

What congregation would exclude a child from God's Holy Family? Baptism is the rite by which we enter the Family. There is no other. How can you sincerely treat and disciple your child as a member of God's Family but deny him Baptism?

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 22, 2004.


Baptism is actually something that takes place in the heart of a true believer---this is something personal between the believer and God.

The water ritual is simply an expression of this truth--but in itself., does not save--the true faith is what saves.

Infants can't express that faith and children who do--are baptised already---even without the ritualist performance.

True believers should want to be baptised as a testimony of their faith for everyone to see.

Max--or whoever--Why don't you just start a new thread rather than reviving ancient ones?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 22, 2004.


>Baptism is actually something that takes place in the heart of a true believer---this is something personal between the believer and God.<

Yes, there is a "purifying" (baptism) of the heart by faith. Act 15:9 "And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." This doesn't make water baptism any less significant.

>The water ritual is simply an expression of this truth--but in itself., does not save--the true faith is what saves.<

Don't forget, it's not a man-made ritual. Of course, water itself can't save, but the Word of God certainly does. The Word of God is in baptism. Baptism is God saying to you individually, "You are forgiven because of what Jesus did." What other means do you have of God personally and individually declaring you innocent and accepted in Christ? There is no other God-ordained means. The Bible is a generalized Word for the church. Preaching is also for the Church in general. But, Baptism is God's PERSONALIZED Word of forgiveness to YOU individually. You can have faith in this Word of God.

>Infants can't express that faith and children who do--are baptised already---even without the ritualist performance.<

Faith in Christ certainly "purifies" or "baptizes" the heart, but water baptism is a means of God's Word coming to you individually. It's more than a mere "ritualistic performance." And, there are adults who are unable to express their faith because of various reasons. This does not disqualify them from water Baptism. Neither should it disqualify an infant - who can have faith.

Water Baptism contains God's expressed Word of forgiveness and acceptance. We ought not demote it. Water Baptism isn't so much something you do. It's something that is done to you - in God's Name - which means it's God who is doing the baptizing, not man.

>True believers should want to be baptised as a testimony of their faith for everyone to see.<

Ananias was likely Paul's only witness to his baptism. The Ethiopian was likely baptized with only one witness - Phillip. There's not even one scripture verse that says that water Baptism is a merely a testimony to the world of your faith, otherwise Paul (of all converts) would have been baptized in a public setting. Ananias didn't even call church members together to witness his Baptism.

>Max--or whoever--Why don't you just start a new thread rather than reviving ancient ones?<

There's no indication that it's ancient. Sorry! ;)

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 22, 2004.



Baptism is God saying to you individually, "You are forgiven because of what Jesus did." What other means do you have of God personally and individually declaring you innocent and accepted in Christ?

According to Scripture, we are forgiven our sins when we confess, repent and receive Christ as our Savior. This is the baptism of repentance.., and it is represented by the water ritual--but the ritual is not the saving factor.

Luke 3:15-18

The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Christ. John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." And with many other words John exhorted the people and preached the good news to them.

There is no other God-ordained means. The Bible is a generalized Word for the church. Preaching is also for the Church in general. But, Baptism is God's PERSONALIZED Word of forgiveness to YOU individually. You can have faith in this Word of God.

But this Word is Jesus--and I have faith that His sacrifice paid for my salvation....

It's all about the cross.., and trusting in Jesus' work there to save us.

-- ("faith01@myway.com), June 23, 2004.


>According to Scripture, we are forgiven our sins when we confess, repent and receive Christ as our Savior.<

confess = work repent = work receive Christ = if by prayer, that's also a work

>This is the baptism of repentance.., and it is represented by the water ritual--but the ritual is not the saving factor.<

What is the purpose of representing something in a ritual? The ritual represents God's work of forgiveness.

>But this Word is Jesus--and I have faith that His sacrifice paid for my salvation.... <

That's good that you believe. The point is that the Word comes to us by means and that Baptism is a means of the Word coming to us, just as the Bible and preaching is a means whereby the Word reaches into our lives.

>It's all about the cross.., and trusting in Jesus' work there to save us. <

The work of Jesus comes to us only through the Word. Without the Word, you could never have faith in the cross because you never woldhave heard of it. Baptism contains the Word of God. It was instituted by Christ and has His Promise connected to it. It's not as empty as many want to imagine.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 23, 2004.


Actually--without the cross--I would never have faith in the Word.

If I couldn't receive Christ through His Word before I was baptised-- how would I know about baptism.

Faith comes by believing--and believing by hearing the gospel. Baptism then occurs in the heart. Then we do the water baptism as our testimony to this deeper truth--that we have been born-again.

In your analysis--you must believe as Calvin did--that we can't believe until God lets us--and then--by no choice or will of our own??? Otherwise it's considered work?

God said that we must do the work of believing....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 23, 2004.


Faith,

It is interesting that you believe "Baptism then occurs in the heart." however there are NO verses in the word of God which you can point to that agree with your opinion. Please let me know if there are some verse(s) that I might have overlooked.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 24, 2004.


After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:7-9

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 24, 2004.



Faith,

Acts 15:7-9 still does NOT prove your point that one is saved by faith ALONE before water baptism.

Since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17), that is exactly how the Gentiles were to believe - Acts 15:7.

Acts 15:8 PROVES that the reception of the Holy Spirit by the Gentiles had NOTHING to do with their salvation for God ONLY acknowledged to the Jews that the Gentiles were also able to be saved.

Acts 15:9 does NOT prove your doctrine of faith only salvation, rather it PROVES that the Jews and the Gentiles were saved the SAME WAY. The Jews in Acts 2:38 were NOT saved by faith alone, and NEITHER are the Gentiles saved by faith alone. Peter told the Jews in Acts 2:38 to REPENT and be BAPTIZED for the remission of their sins. Peter didn't even mention faith to the Jews in this passage. So your claim that one is saved by faith prior to being baptized in water is NOT the truth according to the word of God.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 24, 2004.


You asked for a verse that supports my understanding that the true baptism is something that occurs in the heart. You said there were no verses that indicate that this has anything to do with the heart...

I gave you a confirming verse--do with it what you will., but your fancy dodging doesn't mislead me.., sorry.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 25, 2004.


Faith,

You say faith alone saves.

God says, "There is also an antitype which WHICH NOW SAVES US--BAPTISM. (1 Peter 3:21).

Yes, this baptism is IN water. (See John 3:5).

I choose to believe God, it is OBVIOUS that you do NOT.

No dodging here the word of God is CLEAR enough to anyone who is seeking to OBEY the truth of God's word.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 25, 2004.


I agree Kevin.,

God's Word is clear enough!!

We just disagree on what He has revealed...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 26, 2004.


I still find it interesting that people will disciple their children as if they had faith in Jesus, but will refuse to welcome them into Christ's Family through Baptism.

What's worse? Assuming your child has no faith or assuming your child has faith?

John the Baptist believed even while he was in the womb. Jesus said infants are perfect examples of faith. In fact, unless your faith becomes as perfect as an infant's, you cannot enter the Kingdom.

There was no question about the tradition of Baptizing babies until many centuries after Christ.

If you treat your child as a member of the household of faith, then you ought to let the little child pass through the water and be admitted into the Family of God. Otherwise, your child is just a second class citizen based on age.

Jesus died for everyone - even children - not just grown ups.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), August 02, 2004.


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