Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

Yes! God is Love (1 John 4:8), but that is not his greatest attribute. His greatest attribute is his Holiness.

Nahum 1 2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. 3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

1 Peter 1 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Leviticus 20 7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 11 44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Acts 2 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Mark 1 23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

Luke 1 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Acts 4 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

God is a rightous God

Psalm 7 9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins

He will punish unbelievers for not believing the gospel

Mark 16:16 "... he that believeth not shall be damned."

John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Those who don't believe go to hell, and Hell is eternal punishment

Matthew 25 46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003

Answers

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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

Punishment by God does not necessarily mean damnation.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

David states that he didn't ban anyone; they banned themselves.

So, the comment Jeanie makes would not be truly accurate. It would be much like David's comments; God doesn't send us to hell. We send ourselves there:

"God sends people to hell because he is a JUST God." That statements isn't exactly accurate.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

rod said,"Punishment by God does not necessarily mean damnation"

You read this rod, and you decide what to believe about hell.

(I wonder if some people think this passage is figurative too?) Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."”

Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Num. 16:30, "But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord . . . 33So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly."

Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9"And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

Here are a few examples:

Adam and Eve cast out of Paradise.

The Great Flood.

Moses kept from the Promise Land.

Jonah and his second chance for obedience.

Job.

Saul.

St. Peter's denial of Christ.

The suffering and trials in our own lives.

.....to name a few.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

In the above examples provided, God punished these people for their disobedience or lack of faith. Sure, they brought it upon themselves and that's what happens to disobedient children--punishment. But, do you think that those people I've mentioned are damned to hell? I hope not, do you?

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

rod! you sure know how to throw threads off topic! where did that come from? we are talking about hell!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

We are talking about eternal punishment. Hell. Eternal Damnation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

You are talking about "eternal damnation"; I'm talking about the topic--

"Would a Loving God Ever Send Anyone to Hell[?]"

So, my answer is NO. God wouldn't do that. God wants us in Heaven with Him. Man sends himself to Hell, not God.

I came from the music store. Where did you come from?

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

Your Not talking about the topic! Your talking about heaven knows what!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

"But of course the ultimate punishment in disbelief is HELL! Is that what you want Rod? "

Disbelief usually means denying or rejecting God' Will. I don't know to what degree of disbelief determines one's ultimate damnation to Hell--1% or 99%--I don't know? But, to reject Jesus Christ, after having learned about Him, would indeed reserve a place in Hell when our soul leave this earth.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

No, David. I wasn't "speaking in tongues".

(...in reference to "Heaven knows what" remark.)

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

Rod,

Your either a True Believer or Your Not. Only saved and lost people. None inbetween.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

Well, think about it. How much of the Gospels are we supposed to believe? Some reject the Old Testament and consider the New Testament to be the only significant source in Scriptures. When exactly was Christ born? The exact date is sketchy. His Immaculate Conception is also in question by many. Those who died before the "completeness" of the Holy Bible (Sola Scriptura believers) might fall in to questionable salvation by some in this forum. What about the missing books that St. Paul wrote? What are we missing from those writings? Who is right about baptism?

When you say we should believe everything, how do we determine what is correct among two interpretations, not to mention the unkown numbers? So, what percentage of faith will get us into Heaven? Should John 3:16 be enough and call it quits? I don't think so.

And........what about Dismas, you know, the thief on the cross who did choose to accept Christ? What percentage of the Gospels did he know, understand, and accept?

Do you see, now, what I mean by percentage of faith?

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

God's Word has always been available to True Believers. stop such non-sense rod. There is only True Believers and the Lost unsaved.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

What is the Gospel

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

But, what difference would any of this make when one is a believer in Predestination?

I don't believe in Predestination as having any effect on the soul. It is man's free will that will have an effect by leading him to Salvation or damnation.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

the Bible teaches Predestination, but this is a non-essential doctrine. Not believing in this does not damn anyone to hell because it is not part of the gospel! Man's free will is by nature to sin. Man cannot choose God on his own.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

Of course, but, David can you give an explanation for the parable of the mustard seed. It tells of faith that grows. That means that there are people with different degrees/percentages of faith. Why in this world would God give us this mustard seed parable?

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

We posted simultaneously. My "of course" has nothing to do with your "Man cannot choose God" comments.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

If I am to accept the Calvinist/Predestination theory, than it would be like saying that God does not approach atheist to Him, but instead provides the conditions for the atheist's damnation. God wants all souls in Heaven. Jesus sacrificed Himself for all sinners. The poor atheist has been duped? I don't think so. The atheist has rejected God all by his little self. He can still come to Christ, but because of his arrogance, he chooses to disbelieve and therefore dies.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

Rod,

Your in error to think that man's "free will" will choose good over eivl.

A sinful man: cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23). does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11). is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).

A person can only do what his nature allows him to do. In this case, man's nature is evil and will only do evil.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

The Atheist CANNOT come to Christ unless he is drawn by the Father.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

David, I'm not a Calvinist, so I don't subscribe to that belief. All men have a conscience, some are mentally incapable--God will see to them. I choose to do good to the best of my ability. I gave Jeanie a chance to do the right thing; she chose not to. I was will to sacrifice my membership in this forum in order to have her do good. We all have choices in life. If you continue to believe that you are evil, then how will you ever do anything that approaches goodness? Were the Apostles evil? Would God indwell the Holy Spirit in something evil? We must choose to live a righteous life, a sanctified life, a life that is more like Christ. I am not a Calvinist, so I can't think like one.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

I am not a Calvinist! I am a Christian. No, God does not dwell in something evil. We become a New Creation in Christ.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

It is God who: - draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65). - creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10). - appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48). - works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29). - chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4). - chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14). - grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29). - grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26). - calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9). - causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3). - predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30). - predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5). - predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11). - makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

Man by Nature:

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9). - is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23). - loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19). - is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). - is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6). - is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1). - is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). - cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). - is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

2 Corinthians 5 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

I have met atheist who live a very moral life. They are some of the best people you would want to meet. Except for one thing, they don't believe in God or Jesus Christ. They refuse to fill that void in their existence and conscience with God. All men have that void. Some fill it with vice, drugs, or whatever, but they never believe that the void is a desire to find and seek out God. Some, because of their arrogance, will hear the Gospels and reject them. God has nothing to do with their rejection.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

Living a moral life does not get you into heaven.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

Believing in Christ does!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

How can someone who is dead in sin, is a slave to sin, Come to God on his own? "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26). You have not provided any scriptures for you reasoning rod.

The sinful man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11), hates God, and is in slavery to sin (Rom. 6:17,20), etc.

Jesus said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." (John 6:44),

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

David, your verses are good, but they are snippets put together to make a point. I will have to look at the entire context in order to make my understandings clearer.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

While your "looking that the context", read Ephesians chapter 2.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

Living a moral life doesn't get anyone into Heaven. Accepting Christ as Our Saviour and following His Will is the path to eternal life with God in Heaven. Then, living a moral life in God's will keeps us from falling back to our old ways with the risk of losing faith in Him. When that happens, we lose our Salvation.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

The mustard seed, David?

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

The Apostles not being able to exorcise the demons is another example of degree of faith I mentioned earlier.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

rod, You still have not apologized for calling me a deceitful little moderator.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 21, 2003.

I apologize for calling you a "deceitful little moderator". What? You didn't like the "little" or something?

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 21, 2003.

Dudes, I don't know who you guys are...but I sure have enjoyed reading your interaction. I'm preaching a message on this topic this Sunday and you've given me some great thoughts for processing. Thanks.

-- Ron Fisher (rfisher@newjourney.org), August 03, 2004.

Read Romans 9:13

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 03, 2004.