Hello there i have a question for you.. why do you believe that you have to pay money for sins to be forgiven. in my religion we believe that when you pray to God our sins are forgiven. that is just something i wonder....

-- Rebecca Erin Wnuk (bikinibabe_85_2004@nhotmail.com), December 17, 2003

Answers

Rebecca,

I have never paid to get someone's sins forgiven. Yes that did happen in the middle ages and I am sure that some protestant ministers use that to their advantage but it doesn't happen anymore. The Church reformed those practices during the Catholic Reformation, just after the Protestant Reformation.

Today paying to get sins forgiven is not allowed. One should not profit off of God's gift of forgiveness.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), December 17, 2003.

No one EVER paid for sins to be forgiven. Not one penny, for any sin. That's a falsehood, and Scott has it wrong.

There have been practices in the Catholic faith where money or goods exchanged hands. But not for ''forgiveness of sin.'' These were called indulgences; and they still are. These indulgences were obtained on behalf of a soul already forgiven for all sin. They represent PENANCE for sins already taken away by Jesus Christ; absolved by His holy minister the priest of the Catholic Church.

This is because a soul may not have been asked to suffer for sins while he lived on earth. He will suffer for them before entering heaven. He suffers in Purgatory. No one goes to heaven until he has paid the temporal penalty for every sin. But his/her salvation is assured nevertheless.

The Church can and does allow this penalty to be cancelled by our prayers for the suffering souls, and by alms or sacrifices. These can take the form of contributions for the Church's good causes. They are offered in satisfaction by ourselves, so the suffering soul's time in purgatory might be ended or shortened. God accepts these faith offerings of His Church as Christ's own offering; and the soul is given entrance SOONER into heaven, than if no offerings had been made on his/her behalf by us. It is entirely by God's mercy. Not by our ''money''.

The offering is given out of Christian charity, for souls who have already been saved and forgiven.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 17, 2003.

"The Church can and does allow this penalty to be cancelled by our prayers for the suffering souls, and by alms or sacrifices. our ''money''."

How does/can "The Church" (which church?) allow a penalty to be cancelled. I though Jesus paid the ultimate price for our sins? What other penalty is there for any soul dead or alive who accepts/believes in the Lord Jesus Christ?

-- John Williams (rjswilson@netzero.net), December 17, 2003.

You can be informed if you sit still & listen to the Church. (Not dispute, LISTEN.) It takes a little while, but you can learn the truth about it here.

BTW, this: ''I thought Jesus paid the ultimate price for our sins? What other penalty is there?'' --is a misunderstanding you learned from your self-ordained ministers. Christ died to save us from our sins. He gave us the forgiveness through faith in Him.

But in various passages of scripture you can see that sin causes death and suffering as the unfailing justice God exacts. All will be judged according to their works, and as you sow shall you reap. This caution is directed at every man, even the SAVED one. He must pay for those sins.

Our sins merit punishment. When Jesus died for us, He effected our salvation. He did not remove every penalty. That's why from the beginning He preached repentence.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 17, 2003.

Christ's passion, death, and resurrection even though has dealt with sin, the consequences follow us as a penalty for deciding to opt for sin rather than God. God wants us to know the pain of deciding against him. He is not cheap. We see one example of King David (see 2 Samuel.12:13-18ff) even when he repented, the consequences followed him that led to the death of his son, and it continued even after that and until he was thoroughly humbled enough!

If your repentance is deep enough for all the evil you have done against God's love, then perhaps a large part of the consequences maybe averted and maybe cancelled. But, such repentance always involves giving away what you hold dear in your life, remember the repentance of Mary Magdalene, Zaccheus, etc. their repentance led to them do actions of giving away of something what they held most dear in their life. I guess money is one such thing for most. When we give what we hold dear to our life, we do not just give things, but a part of us to God (our heart), which is painful; it is like dying to ourselves (Rom.12/1ff)

Normally, people would naturally seek to avoid the costs of repentance by just confessing our sins (even grievous sins) directly to God without any remorse, by focussing on scriptures like Christ paid everything and forgetting there are also other scriptures that have to be taken in context. Yeah! Christ paid for everything in love, but it is your turn to show now that you too love, not just complete a legal procedure to enter heaven. Show it.

Scripture warns us against such errors. John Baptist calls such people brood of vipers, who just wants to avoid the consequences of sin by simply acts of faith (Abraham is the father of faith) that costs nothing, but not wanting to bear fruits of repentance as evidence of your love for God and for what he has done on the cross (Read Lk.3:7-14) God Bless You!!!

-- leslie john (lesliemon@hotmail.com), December 18, 2003.

Great post Leslie! Yes, Christ paid our "eternal" punishment, but we still must deal with the temporal punishments. If your child commits an error, then comes to you crying "I'm sorry, Mommy," do you not still require recompense from your child? A good parent would.

King David is a prime example. He was forgiven, but he still paid a horrible price for his sin. It is not enough just to say "I'm sorry." You see, Rebecca, it is all about making amends, taking responsibility.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 18, 2003.

Well, well, well! An anti-Catholic argument again! Let me not to explain for my self but let`s see "The Church teaching". Here is a very usefull article By Jeffrey T. Wiater

Indulgences

By Jeffrey T. Wiater

I'm going to take this article from the basics to the more complex-- begin at the beginning.

The simple and spiritual beneficial doctrine of indulgences fits perfectly into Catholicism, but for someone unfamiliar with the culture--The mind of a Catholic--it is less clear. I'll note this article and the references are attuned to the problems of historical misinformation. Repetition does not a truth make, the barriers of foreign theology and rival groups have made matters other than they should be.

To the subject at hand:

To understand indulgences, it is first necessary to understand Catholic theology and spirituality.

A faithful Catholic will go to church on Sunday, receive the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the most powerful reception of grace he could ever accept, and the more spiritual he is the more he may feel or notice the effects in his life. The grace aids him in rejecting sins, be they angry actions, lies, or the gradual overcoming of bad habits--Through which the analysis and forgiveness of them through the Sacrament of Penance he is also strengthened. The purity he feels in his mind, heart, and soul after these sacraments is great. Certainly, all go through dry times of the soul, but the man is strengthened--And in a very real way, even physically.

So he has grace all about him and finally, less a slave to sin, the ability to choose to do good is made more available to him. He can still reject it, but there is less pleasure in sin now, more pleasure in things the old man would not have thought to find pleasure in. In general, he finds he can pray more often, he can do more charitable acts. There is greater peace about the home . . . or strife when the world the devil or the flesh takes aim at the grace.

And so on. It is part of the Communion of Saints, for he has friends in high places, friends of the Greatest Friend. God is with him, shining in his eyes, burning in his heart, and clearing his mind and sight.

Penance and Reconciliation

Now, the Catholic realizes his sins and roots them out, through the sacraments, especially Penance and Reconciliation (Confession). However, this forgiveness, while complete absolution [of the guilt], does not remove his need to make reparation . . .

Just as the man who steals and spends away money can be forgiven by the man he stole from, should in all conscience, attempt to repay the money. However it is impossible for a man to make up for a sin. Any sin weighed against our God of Infinite Love we cannot repair of our own--The damage is far beyond us. Look how far removed the simple act of trusting in ourselves for once instead of God got Adam & Eve.

But the Church recognizes that Our Lord has made acts of penance and atonement holy, and that they aid a man in his own reformation, purifying him by their manifold goodness and virtues, making him more used to performing good acts. All things have their season, and so grief and joy and penance have theirs. A penitent man upon this earth will become holier than if he waits until his death to be purified by God's love. Indeed, if he lacks penance entirely he may not know to choose love. Procrastination has no virtue here.

The lover of the Lord wishes to be closer to Him, to do right by him, and to let God's grace flow more and more through him to enable him to do so.

You might think of penance, in one way, as "opening the door." Now the Church recognizes Christian Charity exists forever in it, and that the living members of the Church as well as the dearly departed, love each other still in the Communion of the Saints.

Thus, one's dear departed grandmother who prayed so strongly for you on this earth, does not forget all her love for you when she enters Heaven. And we, who here on earth remember the honored ancestors and seek to imitate the virtues exhibited in them, we pray for their prayers--For St. Paul, for example, to pray for us when we are in need of some aid that he perhaps, might especially care about. All this is prayer through God, for prayers to God, for it is all about God.

Now, the Church has been given power to bind and loose through Peter, and has been guided by the Holy Spirit to be free from doctrinal error.

Priests bless laymen, laymen pray for blessings upon their families, the Holy Father imparts his Apostolic blessing, and these things are no empty words but prayers, which God answers. Just so, it is no small thing to say the Church is behind or supports some cause or action. Indeed, the Church, ever fond of educating Her people and encouraging devotion, finds ways to do so in Her "indulgences".

In the old days, and still today though less often, men make pilgrimages to shrines, say long hallowed prayers, sing hymns and do acts of charity that have been encouraged by Christ and before-- Eternal acts of goodness which do often, more good for the doer than the recipient. For who benefits more from a gift, the giver or the receiver?

Prayer and Indulgences

Encouraging her favored prayers, acts of charity and devotion, the church says certain devotions are indulgenced.

An example, would be a visit to a shrine of Our Lady, the saying of the rosary in a public place, or a pious invocation, "Jesus!" said with reverence appropriately. All these acts the Church says are indulgenced, and by this it means she places her spiritual support, and thereby the support of the Communion of Saints behind them, for we are all joined, one family of believers.

In the Church, men offer up intentions. Intentions are very much what the words "Intended for" means. If a mass intention is for a family member, the Church prays that some of the spiritual virtue of the sacrifice is applied to that person. It is very much like, or even exactly like prayer. Prayers can have intentions. I can pray a 'Hail Mary' for you, or simply pray a 'Hail Mary'. I can pray a 'Hail Mary' for world peace, and that is the intention for the act.

The intention of an indulgence can be towards oneself, as part of a remission of penance due a soul, or towards the souls of the dearly departed. Knowing that those souls which depart wish to be fully joined to the Lord and purified of their sins with the least pain of the breaking of the attachment, and in the 'soonest' way relative to their perception, we can /pray/ for the ease of their purification, and intend the /indulgences/ of the Church towards their purification as well.

The prayer has an indulgence attached to it, it is more proper to think of it this way instead of an indulgence gained in 'return' for it. The indulgence is not the end or goal, it is an encouragement, an aid, a gift given that can only be part of an act not separated from it.

The Church's indulgences are given when a man is in a state of grace-- That is he has honestly made use of the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation to be reconciled with God, confessed his sins and obtained absolution, and received the Eucharist. The intent of the man who prays matters wholly here. If he is attached (desires) to sin, he will not gain the aid of the Church in the remission of the purification due it.

The Church views purification/purgatory as a state of being though it has been thought of as a place, the concept of it as a place does not suit it as well as that of a state. However the words can if thought of properly be used interchangeably. It is a matter of perceived definition.

Partial and Plenary Indulgences

Indulgences are designated as 'partial' or 'plenary', and used to be designated as '100 days' and other time related measures. The Catholic Encyclopedia explains: "By a plenary indulgence is meant the remission of the entire temporal punishment due to sin so that no further expiation is required in Purgatory. A partial indulgence commutes only a certain portion of the penalty ... God alone knows what penalty remains to be paid and what its precise amount is in severity and duration." These measurements were always used to distinguish the general virtue of one act, or another, a pious invocation being thought, all other things being equal, of less value than a great pilgrimage. However, it has been decided, rather than attempt to distinguish at all what cannot be truly known, to use the terms 'partial' and 'plenary' instead of the older method--Which was more in use when pilgrimages of a 100 days, and such were the common methods of devotion.

The references to time referred to charitable acts upon the earth and never to "time in purgatory" as has oft been misunderstood. They were used only for general comparisons.

The references at the end of the post will contain official documents and more explanation of the prayers and acts of devotion, and how they relate to the 'partial' or 'plenary' nature of the Churches indulgences. Now so, a man says the prayer "Tantum Ergo" with the intent of it being a prayer for his sister's aid, and the prayer, indulgenced, aids the man as well in that way. Now so, a man goes on a pilgrimage, and increases his devotion, escaping the world for a time, and this pilgrimage indulgenced, he knows the Church fully supports him in it.

Common Misconceptions

In regard to the common misconception of the "selling" of indulgences. The Church has indulgenced many acts, and in the beginning, she indulgenced all kinds of acts of charity, from prayer, to visiting the sick, to helping the needy, to almsgiving. That almsgiving was indulgenced, eventually led to some to claim that one could 'pay' for spiritual benefits. Furthermore there was even the claim that you could 'pay' for 'time off' in purgatory, and 'pay' for permission to sin.

All these things are a complete twist on what indulgences actual are, are meant for, and could ever be for.

As a Catholic Q&A FAQ puts it, "Asking if the Church has stopped selling indulgences is like asking a man if he has stopped beating his wife."

Due to the harm caused by misunderstandings, propaganda, and actual abuse by individuals, the Church removed many indulgences upon almsgiving, and now there is simply a general indulgence on all charitable giving to the poor and charities that benefit them. However it could never be proper to say that the Church 'sold' indulgences. Indulgences are and were available in many ways, hardly restricted to almsgiving. If individual members of the Church pushed indulgences attached to almsgiving too far--The abuse has been corrected, but the abuse does not give cause to say that the Church ever sponsored such an abuse.

Indulgences historically were much less a cause for the "Reformation" than one /issue/ among others that could be /used/ to cause the Reformation. And misconception of them, being easy, propaganda flourished. Just as if some among the Methodist (or any other denomination) preachers choose to abuse their Discipline, it would not be proper to impugn the entire denomination nor say the denomination taught the abuse.

The Church has developed in all this time, and it would be foolish to think it could not do so for the better--However as it becomes deeper in its theology it becomes harder for the outsider to look in and see something for what it is immediately.

John Paul II has said:

"It is a sensitive subject, which has suffered historical misunderstandings that have had a negative impact on communion between Christians. In the present ecumenical context, the Church is aware of the need for this ancient practice to be properly understood and accepted as a significant expression of God's mercy. Experience shows, in fact, that indulgences are sometimes received with superficial attitudes that ultimately frustrate God's gift and cast a shadow on the very truths and values taught by the Church."

I am well aware of the current misunderstandings, high and low, even amongst the Orthodox and Catholics.

Yet, when considered properly, there is much good to be found in this greater communion with the Church--A more full expression of the Communion of the Saints.

An indulgence is an aid, for it is a way for the Church herself to encourage the most beautiful prayers and acts, old and forever new-- And a most beautiful expression of the mercy of God expressed through relationships. The Church wishes for us to draw closer to God and aids us as justly and spiritually as she can.

God Bless You All!

In Cordibus Jesu Et Mariae

A friend

-- A Friend (never@mind.tv), December 18, 2003.

JAMES 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Instead of paying indulgencies can I compensate with being instrumental in converting a sinner? If so why doesn't the Churh empahsise that instead of paying indulgencies or doing good?

-- John Williams (rjswilson@netzero.net), December 19, 2003.

If you read any of the above information, you would know that the phrase "paying indulgences" is meaningless. An indulgence is not something you "pay". It is a special grace received from God for participating in His plan. The Church does emphasize conversion of sinners, which is one way of participating in God's plan.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 19, 2003.

Thank you, Javier, for that good information!

-- (@@@.@), December 20, 2003.

Chavez-you ever actually READ a history book or the Bible, b/c both of them disagree with you. I'm a history major and not once have I ever read curriculum that states what you say as fact. As far as the Bible is concerned, what you say about Jesus is missing.

-- sdfsd fsd fsd (Mrbass2003@hotmail.com), February 05, 2004.

Would you care to explain? I'm confident any question you ask can be resolved, if you're acting in good will. If a Bible interpretation ''disagrees'' with me, I sure want to see it!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 06, 2004.

eugene,

i would ignore that comment above if i were you. if someone is so lazy and prejudiced against christianity that they dont even know what the bible says, how are you going to convince them to read the whole thing rather than cut out what their protestant ministers want them to hear?

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), February 06, 2004.