I would like a complete exposition of the following statement:

"True faith will result in obedience. "

1. How does faith engender obedience?

2. How does "obedience" equate with works?

3. What signifance does "obedience" play in 'Sola Fide' or 'Sola Gratia'?

(These three questions for starters.)

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 14, 2003

Answers

Sorry, I have to clear this up first.

First of all, no matter how many scriptures a conditional security advocate shows you( conditional security - is really eternal security with their own twist and conditions added to it), it doesn't change the fact that we are saved by grace through faith in christ. (eph 2) That is the biblical theme, always has been. Salvation is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9) The "warnings" given to us is to distinguish the True Believers from the Phonies, and to tell the phonies they were really never said to begin with.

God does not change. (Hebrews 13:8) We are lost in sin, and the natural man cannot seek God. (Rom 3) God draws people to him and once they are in his hand no one can taken them away from him, (John 6) including the believer. God cannot deny himself (2 Timothy 2) The problem with these condition security adovocates is that they confuse the doctrines of justification and sanctification. In justification, we are justified (saved) by faith. I do not argue for Greek grammer, because God promised to preserve his Words (Psalm 12:6-7) and he did just that in the english language (which is spoken in all parts of the world) Sanctification is when God enables us to live a holy life. It is a process. There are 3 "aspects" of salvation, past (justification, eph 2; rom 5) present (sanctification, titus 3; 1 thess 4) and future (glorification, rom 8; rom 5) Baptism doesn't justify us because we are justified before baptism (when we believe) Acts 10:48 said we recieve the remissions of sins when we believe. Acts 15 and Romans 4 make it clear that no external act is needed for justification. When we believe, we are baptized with the Spirit, it is this baptism that saves. If water baptism was truly needed for justification, then that would mean God needs help from a mere man to save you. That is just non-sense. But God doesn't need anyone's help to baptize you with his Spirit (Mark 1:8, 1 Cor 12:13). When you are baptized with the Spirit:

"1. You are born again. His Spirit is engrafted into yours. This is the rebirth that Jesus spoke of (Jn.3:5).
2. You are placed into the body of Christ (I Cor.12:13).
3. The righteousness of your faith is sealed (Eph.1:13; Rom.4:11).
4. You are now a child of God (Gal.4:1-6).
5. You are a partaker of the inheritance (Gal.4:1-6).
6. You are now sanctified (separated from the world unto God; II Thes.2:13). "

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (1 John 5:1)

If baptism was truly necessary for justification, wouldn't God stress that fact (baptism is only mentioned in a few verses, compared to the countless of times we are told belief is the sole condition for justification) instead of filling the new testament with countless of verses each claiming that we are justified by faith? And you must remember, each book was written to a certain church, you cannot go verse hopping to make this water salvation doctrine fit. If you study the bible in context, find the biblical theme in each book you will see that salvation by grace through faith in christ is the biblical theme, it is not salvation by water baptism. 1 Cor 15:1-4 summarizes the gospel. 1 Cor 1:17, Paul also makes it clear that water baptism is not part of the gospel. These passages clearing refute water salvation: John 15:3, Luke 7:37-50, Mat 9:2, Luke 18:13-14. Acts 10:44-48, The house of Cornelius was saved before water baptism (they recieved the Holy Spirit, only saved people recieve the Spirit). And this was not just a "one time event". We are saved just like those in the house of Cornelius. Ok I babbled off topic, back to obedience. Eph 2 and Titus 3 says salvation is "not by works". What is Baptism? Baptism is a symbol and an "appeal to God". (1 Peter 3:21) Symbols don't save. [Note: Covenants have symbols, (Abraham - circumcision [did not save Abraham], Moses - Sabbath, Ours - Baptism [Col. 2:11-12 is a sign just like circumcision],) Only the real thing saves us. Water Baptism is an ordinance just like the Lord's Supper (which was Passover in the Old Testament). The Lord's Supper (not the eucharist) is symbolic and we are to do it in rememberance of him. My Challenge: By just using one book of the bible (i.e. Just using the book of John, not verse hopping to other books), prove that baptism saves.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 15, 2003.

I'm not sure the questions have been answered.

I have taken the quotation
"True faith will result in obedience. " from you, David.

My understanding is more like this:
True faith will result in Salvation.

What do you mean by "obedience"? If that does not mean "works", what does it mean?

Please remember that Jesus was baptized.

...........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 15, 2003.

No I know I didn't answer the question. I just had to state those things first. Jesus did not get baptized to get saved, or to get the remissions of sin. He was baptized in obedience. Jesus was baptized because he was obeying the Law of Moses(?) and to fulfil the requirements to enter into priesthood. Read Eph 2:1-10, it tell you the order:

Grace
Faith
Salvation
Obedience

I don't try to earn my salvation by my works ("not by works" Eph 2, Titus 3:5), the works of obedience I do is because I got saved by God's grace...it's kind of like saying "thank you" and appreciating the Work Jesus Christ did on the Cross for us. When we become true believer, we are no longer the same person. We are a new creation, and God gives us a heart that appreciates his goodness and mercy.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 15, 2003.

Why was Jesus baptized?

Jesus told John the Baptist in Matthew 3:15, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness."

What did Jesus mean by this statement?

Psalm 119:172 says, "My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness."

Jesus was baptized because it was God's WILL for Him to be baptized.

Jesus told the apostles "and that REPENTANCE and REMISSION OF SINS should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:47). (Emphasis mine, kw). The first gospel sermon was preached in Acts chapter 2 and when the Israelites who were gathered together asked the question "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" in Acts 2:37, Peter said to them, "REPENT and let every one of you be BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". (Acts 2:38). (Emphasis mine).

Peter's sermon FULFILLED the very words of Jesus in Luke 24:47.

Notice that REPENTANCE and REMISSION OF SINS were required to be preached beginning in Jerusalem, and that is EXACTLY what Peter preached.

He preached REPENTANCE and that one had to be BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS.

To claim that one can be saved BEFORE being baptized (immersed) in water FOR the remission of their sins one has to DENY the very Words of God.

The very Words by which we will one day be judged. (John 12:48, Rev. 20:12).

Jesus affirmed that the one who has believed, and who has been baptized (immersed), shall be saved (Mk. 16:16).

Romans 6:3 says, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?"

How does a person receive the benefits of Christ?s death?

By being baptized into His death. (Rom. 6:3)

It was in His death that Jesus shed his blood.

We receive no benefits of the blood of Jesus UNTIL we are baptized into his death. (See Rom. 6:17-18)

Redemption by the blood of Christ is in Christ. (Eph. 1:7).

We can ONLY get into Christ according to the Scriptures by being "baptized into Jesus Christ." (Rom. 6:3, Gal 3:27).

As the body is washed with the water of baptism, the soul is cleansed of sin by the blood of Christ. (Heb. 10:22)

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 15, 2003.

David, your eternal destiny is determined whether or not you have obeyed the gospel.

Romans 1:16 states that the gospel is God's power to salvation and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 shows what will happen to those who do NOT obey.

Are you willing to take the chance that you have believed a LIE?

Jesus said in John 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Baptism IS a command, and it is FOR the remission of sins.

Baptism is a burial and we only bury dead people.

To claim that one can be made "alive" by "faith only" and then die again in the watery grave of baptism just does not make any logical sense.

The apostle John said in 1 John 2:4, "He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him." (emphasis mine).

I urge you to obey the gospel before it is too late. (2 Peter 3:9-10).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 15, 2003.

You need to understand the different Baptisms mentioned in scripture. The 'Baptism of repentance' for the remission of sins was for Israel to bring them back to God as a nation and individually. 'All Israel' had to be baptised remember. It was never a salvation issue. Remission of sin does not necessarily mean Salvation, yet Salvation does necessarily mean remission of sin.

The baptism of a believer is Spiritual, there is ONE Baptism. We are spiritually baptized into Christ, as the scriptures say. Water baptism is not necessary for salvation yet, like the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, AFTER we have 'believed with all thine heart' we can choose to publically demonstrate our death and new life in Christ this way. There is no scripture to show that not being water baptised prevents one's faith in Christ for salvation being assured.

-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 05, 2004.