During the past week, many have attacked the Divine Inspiration of the Bible. Well now, I attack the Roman organization. Without using the scriptures (which shouldn't be hard because thats what many of you do anyways), Tell us, How do we know if your Roman "oral traditions" are truly from God? Unless you have it recorded on a tape player (which is pretty hard since there were none at the time), you cannot really know what "oral traditions" are.

Have you ever played the phone game? Person A calls Person B, telling him a story. Then (Keep in mind, you can't write the story down. They have to say it orally.), Person B calls Person C telling him the same story...Person Y tells Person Z....And if continues on and on as the years go by. You can see how easly things get distorted if passed by word of mouth. Common Sense tells us something is more reliable written down than pass by word of mouth. Does God trust men too pass along the word by mouth? No. "Let God be true and EVERY man a liar." God himself has preserved his Words. So to the Roman organization member, tell me what are oral traditions and prove it by sending me a audio recording of them.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 12, 2003

Answers

David, Roman organization?? We are not a Church anymore?? If it wasent for our "Roman organization" and oral traditionsyou wouldent even have your christian faith. You cant change the fact the the Catholic Church put the bible togather, and decided what books to put in it. The book you claim conradicts our faith. The fact is we dont need to prove anything. Our Church is of Christ founed by Christ? What about yours? Was it founed by Christ or a ex-preist who ran off with a ex nun in sin, and hated the jews. After you explain that awy we can start talking about our oral traditions. Try as you might you cant undermine Chirsts Church even though you try every day. His Church will stand till the end of time under the paternage of the Blessed Virgin Mary. She will Protect Her Sons Church till the end of time.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 12, 2003.

[Following quotes have been edited for grammer errors] KeV said,"If it wasn't for our "Roman organization" and oral traditions, you wouldn't even have your Christian Faith."

I highly doubt that. The Roman organization was not around when Jesus was alive, but there were still believers then and will always be.

KeV said,"You can't change the fact the the Catholic Church put the bible togather, and decided what books to put in it."

You cannot change the fact that it is God that would preserve his word. Not mere humans.

KeV said,"The book you claim contradicts our [Roman Catholic] faith."

Because it does.

KeV said,"The fact is, we don't need to prove anything."

That is because you can't.

KeV said,"Our church is of Christ founded by Christ?"

Prove it.

KeV said,"What about yours? Was it founded by Christ, or a ex-preist who ran off with a ex-nun in sin, and hated the jews."

If by 'hated the jews' you mean Luther, then no. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ, the spiritual one.

KeV said,"After you explain that away, we can start talking about our [Roman Catholic] oral traditions."

No, how about you talk about your oral traditions first. You attacked the bible which is our center of faith, now I attack your oral tradition which seems to be the Roman center of faith.

KeV said,"Try as you might, you can't undermine Chirsts Church [refering to the Roman organization] even though you try every day."

I do not 'undermine' the Church of Jesus Christ, but the Roman organization.

KeV said,"His Church will stand till the end of time under the paternage of the Blessed Virgin Mary. She will Protect Her Sons Church till the end of time."

Don't even start on Mary. She is dead, but Christ is alive and is the Almighty God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 12, 2003.

David,

"I highly doubt that. The Roman organization was not around when Jesus was alive, but there were still believers then and will always be."

A: well what ever you feel like thinking thats ok, but when Christ left this earth He left His 12 apostles who servred the Catholic Chruch that Christ left on earth with peter as its VISABLE head of earth, Our Lord said: peter YOU are the rock upen which I will build my church. No he dident say "Peter 'I' am the rock upon which I will build my church. They served the Catholic Church and they listened to peter IE: the first Church council when peter raised up and stoped the arguement (i forget what book and verse). Your curch arouse well over 1000 years after Christ, from a man, it was not founed by Chirst as ours.

"You cannot change the fact that it is God that would preserve his word. Not mere humans."

A: I dont even realy need to answer this one as it is a historical fact that the One Holy Catholic Church complied the Holy Bible, and Martin Luther removed many books and other things that dident fit his liking. He could not make them fit what he thought was right, so he removed them. So i ask you this: how can you base your ideas on a bible that is not complete. As you say "it is God that would preserve his word. Not mere humans", Yes people wrote it by the Holy Spirit, but we complied all the books together. There is nothing in the bible contray to Our Church.

"Because it does."

A: ok show us. All you ever show for that claim is one line here and there that is miles out of the context of the rest of the pharagraph.

"That is because you can't"

A: we do every well, but you all dont wish to see any truth only what you know, if you read and study instead of just calling us eveil and of the devil you would start to see

"Prove it."

A: see above, and read the book o john i beleave it is when Chirst told peter he was the rock. Dont just read that line keep reading.

"If by 'hated the jews' you mean Luther, then no. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ, the spiritual one."

A: There is only one true Church and sorry but if your not in it your not in the Church of Christ. An yes i mean luther, your church and beleis twisted as they are was started by him and a few others.

"No, how about you talk about your oral traditions first. You attacked the bible which is our center of faith, now I attack your oral tradition which seems to be the Roman center of faith."

A: How about you stop claiming falsely that oral tredition is the basis of our Faith, it is part of it but the good magority of it is from the bible. The bible is the basis of our Faih you make it sound like we dont use the bible at all.

"I do not 'undermine' the Church of Jesus Christ, but the Roman organization."

A: The 'Roman organization' Which is the Church Christ founded is what you are trying. When it is founded by God Himself, and your by a mear human being.

"Don't even start on Mary. She is dead, but Christ is alive and is the Almighty God."

A: No She is not dead She is as alive as Jesus Himself. She is the Mother of God and She is watching from heaven next to Her Son and you sit and bash Her Sons Church.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 12, 2003.

Waiting.... Waiting.... *gets up for soda* Waiting.... Waiting.... Jeanie and David are you home??? Waiting...

*goes to bed*

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 13, 2003.

"well what ever you feel like thinking thats ok,"

I don't feel, I know.

"but when Christ left this earth He left His 12 apostles who servred the Catholic Chruch that Christ left on earth with peter as its VISABLE head of earth, Our Lord said: peter YOU are the rock upen which I will build my church. No he dident say "Peter 'I' am the rock upon which I will build my church. They served the Catholic Church and they listened to peter IE: the first Church council when peter raised up and stoped the arguement (i forget what book and verse). Your curch arouse well over 1000 years after Christ, from a man, it was not founed by Chirst as ours. "

Your point is? I'm not even going to bother replying to this. Christ is the Rock and Cornerstone of the Church, not Peter. I don't care what a council said because that council is biased and is not the Word of God. My church started with Jesus Christ. Your church started around 300AD by Men. All what happened was that Pagan Rome got mixed with a blurred Christianity. That's how we got today's Easter and Christmas.

"I dont even realy need to answer this one as it is a historical fact that the One Holy Catholic Church complied the Holy Bible,"

Oh really now? Maybe it's because you can't answer it. You presume the Roman Organization made the bible, but you can't prove it. We all know the Jews made the Old Testament. And the Apostles wrote the New. You presume they were members of the Roman organization but it is impossible. The Roman organizaiton did not exist till 300? AD.

"and Martin Luther removed many books and other things that dident fit his liking."

Really, well prove it. I don't go for "what if's". I go for what really happened. "What if Hitler didn't invade Russia". "What if this, what if that..blah". So many possibalitys. But what really did happen? Luther did not remove those books. Plain and simple.

"He could not make them fit what he thought was right, so he removed them."

No he didn't. The book of James is still in the bible because My Perfect God preserved it.

"So i ask you this: how can you base your ideas on a bible that is not complete."

I ask you, how can you base your ideas on books that claim not to be inspired Word of God? My bible is complete because God does not lose his own Word. And most of our "ideas" come from the New Testament.

"Yes people wrote it by the Holy Spirit, but we complied all the books together. There is nothing in the bible contray to Our Church."

OH really? You must not be reading the bible. Every point raised against the Roman organization proves that it is contrary to the Bible. You still have not proved your oral traditions. Can you? I think not.

"ok show us."

Where have you been? Every point against the Roman organization proves it is unbiblical. Examples where Christians have proved you wrong is Purgatory, Praying to Dead people, the Eucharist, the Apocrypha, etc..

"All you ever show for that claim is one line here and there that is miles out of the context of the rest of the pharagraph."

Really, well atleast I claim something. You stick to your presumptions and you do not even try to show me how I take something out of context. If anything, you take things out of context. "private interpretations". If Romanists knew how to read they would know the real meaning about that verse. If means Scripture is From God Himself, and not a figment of man's imagination.

"we do every well, but you all dont wish to see any truth only what you know, if you read and study instead of just calling us eveil and of the devil you would start to see"

Yes I will start to see. I see that I should not even bother talking to any of you because it is a worthless cause.

"see above, and read the book o john i beleave it is when Chirst told peter he was the rock. Dont just read that line keep reading."

Go back and re-read the bible where it says Christ is the Rock.

"There is only one true Church"

And it's not a Romish organization.

"and sorry but if your not in it your not in the Church of Christ."

I am in the Church of Jesus Christ.

"An yes i mean luther, your church and beleis twisted as they are was started by him and a few others."

Who do you think started the Roman organization? It's a historical fact. It developed out of a blurred Christianity and Paganist views

"How about you stop claiming falsely that oral tredition is the basis of our Faith,"

How about you start proving and tell us what is oral tradition. You can't can you?

"it is part of it but the good magority of it is from the bible."

The majority is in isolated verses taken out of context.

"The bible is the basis of our Faih you make it sound like we dont use the bible at all."

Because you don't.

"The 'Roman organization' Which is the Church Christ founded is what you are trying."

Christ did not establish a Roman organization. Show me in the bible where it says that His Church was Roman!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

Waiting.....Waiting.......

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

What? I see... Can't a Roman Catholic give me a list of oral traditions? And better yet, can't a Roman Catholic give me a tape recording proving those oral traditions?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

keep waiting you dident answer any of my question. It is a hisorical fact yes i said FACT that the Catholic Church gathered of of the books of the bible to gather. They remained un edited till the tiem of martin luther (minus translations from greek and so on). You seam to have a slihtly worse grammer problem then i do "Peter YOU are the rock upob which i will build my church" He dident see hitler, he dident say calvin, he dident say martin luther he said "YOU" not 'I am the rock upon which i will biuld my church" But YOU. It is not a question of hear say as to who put the bible to gather or that luher toke books out of it, along with st. james? was it who wrote about FAITH AND WORKS. Now for the part about we take stuff only from the new testament. Purgtory's basis is in the old testement. or did luther remove that book to??? I forget your arguements change every day. I will be at work all day ill go through your post that denys historical facts and teach you to read since you feel that the word YOU means I so i guess ill be teaching my self by your logic. Anyway ill be back tonight and answer your meaningless denying post tonight

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 13, 2003.

"... for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:20

"The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner." Psalm 118:22

"...by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth... This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner." Acts 4:10-11

"For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?" Psalm 18:31

"... I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock..." Deuteronomy 32:3-4

"Truly my soul waiteth upon God... He only is my rock..." Psalm 62:1- 2

"But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge." Psalm 94:22

"And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he (Christ) might have the preeminence." Colossians 1:18 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him (Christ) to be the head over all things to the church," Ephesians 1:22

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" Ephesians 4:15

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord..." 1 Corinthians 1:2

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" Ephesians 5:25

"And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us..." Ephesians 5:2

"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he (Jesus) hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:6

You say I take things out of context, well prove it. The biblical theme is thta Christ is the Rock. You cling to your isolated verse.

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" Matthew 15:3

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

"keep waiting you dident answer any of my question."

What question? You just keep trying to bloster the image of Rome but it isn't working.

"It is a hisorical fact"

Then show me the history. The biased History of the selected church father writings are not history.

"yes i said FACT that the Catholic Church gathered of of the books of the bible to gather."

You still have not proved this. You just presume.

"They remained un edited till the tiem of martin luther (minus translations from greek and so on)."

The True Christians wanted the bible translated so that the common people can own a bible one day. It is a historical fact that the Roman organization HATES the bible. How many bibles has your organization burned?

"You seam to have a slihtly worse grammer problem then i do"

You somehow think that if a reply isn't written to you in 5 minutes that you won the "debate". That is obvious from your "waiting...waiting" posts. I get a few errors, I'm not perfect. But you seem to think you are.

""Peter YOU are the rock upob which i will build my church""

["The “rock” upon which the church was to be built was the truth acknowledged by Peter, namely that Jesus is the Christ, God’s Son, and not the apostle himself"] - CCP

"It is not a question of hear say as to who put the bible to gather or that luher toke books out of it, along with st. james?"

Yes it is a question of who put the bible together. You claim that the Roman organization wrote it. I say God used mere humans as instruments to preserve his Word.

"Purgtory's basis is in the old testement."

Purgtorys basis has no basis in the New Testament or Old. Please take this to a different thread since this is the "oral tradition" thread which you cannot prove.

"or did luther remove that book to???"

God does not lose books....Satan on the other hands seems to add them.

"I forget your arguements change every day."

You arguements are just the same ones that have always been refuted by others. Read the rest of the site if you dare.

"I will be at work all day ill go through your post that denys historical facts"

I do not deny historical facts. You haven't even proved this. A few quotes from a church father isn't history.

"and teach you to read since you feel that the word YOU means I so i guess ill be teaching my self by your logic."

I know how to read, maybe I should teach you how to stop following some organization so blindly.

"Anyway ill be back tonight and answer your meaningless denying post tonight"

If you can answer it. What are oral traditions? If you don't know, they say it. If you can't prove it, they say so. Stop running away from that question.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

So you try to prove the Bible by your organization and prove your organization by the Bible?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

"The True Christians wanted the bible translated so that the common people can own a bible one day. It is a historical fact that the Roman organization HATES the bible. How many bibles has your organization burned?"

Which bibles did we burn... humm let me think this is a realy hard one.. Ahh now i remember we burned the bibles that martin luther edited because they dident fit his little ideas.

If you like to admit it or not we compiled the bible, our faith is b in the bible, and we can prove it in the bible. You have a reading problem because you still seam to think when Jesus said YOU he meant Himself. Stop attacking the Catholic Church and go study up on your reading skills and get a real bible with all the books in it. Every Debate you lose from the secound you start it because you dont understand our beleifs or why we beleave them. You can claim all you like we worship mary and the saints, that the pope is the anti christ... How do you know? Do you get this meaning like you do from when Jesus called Himself you?

This is realy pethedic if you cant get the meaning of ehat is there.

Kev

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 13, 2003.

Why was my second post deleted? It just disapered. I sure hope you dident delete it becuase you dont have jeanie and the other protestant here to help you smear the church.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 13, 2003.

"..Unless you have it on a tape recorder.."

David are you stupid? Sola Scriptura is unbiblical!

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter(2 Thess 2:15)

You don't need a "tape- recorder" to read this do you Cyberpunk?

-- Larry (Larry@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

Sorry KeV,

Which post you talking about?

After my post,"So you try to prove the Bible by your organization and prove your organization by the Bible?"

I did not do anymore deletions because I had to go help out at a school thing. Maybe it got cut off?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

"You can claim all you like we worship mary and the saints, that the pope is the anti christ..."

KeV, maybe you misunderstand my beliefs. I do not believe the pope is The Anti-Christ because I believe he is going to be a Jew claiming to be the Christ and the Nation Israel will believe him. Kevin and Jeanie believe the pope is The Anti-Christ because they spiritualize prophecies and hold the same amillenial view you do. Ok fine, you claim you do not worship mary and I have not mentioned it anymore. Just like I have said I do not hate Roman Catholics, but people keep insisting on telling me that I do not even know what I believe and say I hate Roman Catholics. I do not. I hate the system, not the person. I do not believe Mary (or anyone else) can hear the millions of prayers directed towards her because only Jehovah is omniscient. And I donot believe God needs help in hearing prayers either. And I also believe that every believer is a saint, not just people the Roman organization says so.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

David, maybe it wasent deleted may have been my end sorry

KeV

-- kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 13, 2003.

David, you are correct to get to heaven you are a saint. The Church just reconized a few for their great lifes and has feast days for them. We disagree on many points but i feel i do need to apologise for getting so offensive, the debate has gotten alittle out of hand, and turned into a little of a spitting contest so to say:P

Ok that said back to the debate.

I do not acuse you of hating the Church. But the fact still stands that the basis of the Catholic Faith is the bible. The caticisum, and many other things find there basis in the bible. It i not word of mouth from a church father that tells us that the bible was put togather by the Catholic Church, it is what happened. Iam sure i can find some proof, to show but i all ready know it is true, beleave what you like but thats the truth. As far as Mary is concerned (walking a fine line here) She is not 'absolutly' nessecary for salvation. Dont get me wrong She is a great great help for us, but minus dogmatic beleifs (which you dont reconize so lets not get into that) a Catholic does not have to pray to Mary or even look at a statue. God is the center of Our Church we do not worship Mary or the saints. We pray right to God very much, His son if the center of the Church, along with that comes what he teached in the bible and what was never writen down. As Larry posted,

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter(2 Thess 2:15)"

It is very il logical to ask to prove oral tradition, take it or leave it thats one of the things Jesus left His Church.

As you put the name of this room: What is the Roman Organization without the bible?

It is nothing, but we use it in every thing we do and beleave. So....

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 13, 2003.

KeV wrote,"you are correct to get to heaven you are a saint"

Is that what the Word of God says? The Word of God says that anyone born again is a saint.

"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 1:7

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;" Ephesians 3:8

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" Ephesians 4:11-12

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 14, 2003.

David, wow where in those verses did it say as soon as you are "born again" you are a saint? Maybe i just dident see it or maybe it isent there?

Is that what the Word of God says? The Word of God says that anyone born again is a saint.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 14, 2003.

Well, you do not even attempt to justify your postion of "to heaven you are a saint". No one is a true believer unless they are born again. There are only two kinds of people, lost and saved. None in between. It does not make sense for me to call a person that is living in sin, and is a non-believer a saint. Only those who are born again are saints. The pope cannot make anyone a saint, only God can do this. And yes, I am juftyfied in my view that only born again believers are saints, because obviously a non-believer cannot be a saint and will be damned to hell.

Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem.
Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
Acts 9:41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
Acts 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
Romans 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints.
Romans 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.
1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Corinthians 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints).
2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia.
2 Corinthians 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
2 Corinthians 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you.
2 Corinthians 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God.
2 Corinthians 13:13 All the saints salute you.
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints.
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints.
Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.
Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons.
Philippians 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints.
Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
Philemon 1:5 Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints.
Philemon 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Hebrews 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 14, 2003.

You become saint before you die. And if you are not a saint before you die, you certainly Will not be one when you are dead.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 14, 2003.

Ok so you are 'born again' so no matter what you do, no matter how bad you sin you will go to heaven? Correct? John 6, 47-

Amen, Amen I say to you: He that beliveth inme, hath everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. This is the bread that cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread I will give, is MY FLESH, for the life of the world. The jews therefore strove among them selfs, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen I say unto you:except you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have everlasting life

YOu can go on reading but Jesus says many times here that His Flesh is real food not the word but is flesh. When the people thought he was crazy in what he was saying he said it again many times.

Have you had Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament He instuted? If you i would what to rethink my faith because you are not fallowing the commands of Jesus him self. That come from the bible You cant deny them they are right there. No where in the Bible does it say once you are saved you cant sin or that you are a saint. Heaven is not handed to you if you have faith, we must fallow the commands of Christ Himself to get there.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 14, 2003.