NEED HELP WITH CHURCH HISTORY

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OK, I use to know this, but right when I needed it, I forgot it.

The usual Anti-Chrisyain line of how CHristains killed pagans came up in an internet debate,a nd I showed historically how this sint true, however,the usual line of intolerence is expressed. I have already stated thsat Church fathers fought for toelrence, but now I have forgotten the names of the men who actuslly did stand in favour of toleration.

May I ask who where the peopel who where askign for tolerence over legal action agaisnt Pagans in the early Chruch?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 08, 2003

Answers

Response to NEEDHELP WIHT CHURCH HISTORY



-- (top@top.top), December 08, 2003.

Response to NEEDHELP WIHT CHURCH HISTORY

So...you're denying the fact that the Church lit people on fire for not agreeing with them? Good luck.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 08, 2003.

Response to NEEDHELP WIHT CHURCH HISTORY

Not increadibley bright.

For starters, we are discussign a MUCH EARLIER time period, prior to the Middle ages, what you are discussinf occured at the end of the Middle Ages.

Further, the reason for these actions were mainly political, and surprisignly few died int he Inquesition considerign he number calle din.

Further, the usual execution meahtod was hanging, not birning.

Plus, beign protestant myself, the peopel the Church killed where people like me, who where not in cimmunion with Rome.

Did you know that it didnt even enter Brittain? which had severed its ties with rome before the Inquesition took off.

Indeed, mainly it occured in spain.

Pagans didnt even exist at this time, as Paganism was extinct, an its death was nto caued by forced vonversions and slaughters.

The Inquesition was an attmeot to get those within the churhc to realign with cahtolic teahcings, and NOT designed to kill. Pagans.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 08, 2003.


Response to NEEDHELP WIHT CHURCH HISTORY

"Church fathers fought for tolerance"

SOme did Zarove but many didnt and in doing so commited a number of evil crimes in the name of the Church. True tolerance is one of the most beautiful but difficult virtues, and sadly something that sometimes was viwed by the Church fathers as a weakness of faith, a lack of seroius and profound religious conviction etc.

The actions of the Church fathers relating to the inquisitions, can to some degree be mitigated but never excused by time and place and the role of the Church and State. Any attempt however to absolve the Church fathers of these henious crimes against man and God is mere moral relativism. ANy attepmt to compare these crimes to modern crimes such as abortion or STalin is not really a comparison worthy of consideration. Two wrongs dont make a right. No matter how well intentioned these Church fathers were ,what some of them professed and did was evil.It was evil then, it is evil now and it always will be evil.

Sadly a numebr of Catholic apologists in the past have felt frightened by the truth if it shows the Church in a bad light. They have what can only be described as a "panic attack of faith", they refuse to confront it and choose to whitewash history. In doing so they commit as great as a crime as those who exaggerate the Churchs role in all of this.

You asked for Church Fathers of the time who proclaimed tolerance, there were many Ill get the ball rolling with one quote Im sure there are many available but I have only time to have a quick look at the Catholic encylopedia:

Gregory IX once recommended in a Brief (6 April, 1233), addressed to the French bishops concerning the attitude of Christians towards the Jews: "Christians must show towards Jews the same good will which we desire to be shown to Christians in pagan lands. (Cf. Auvray, "Le régistre de Grégoire IX", n. 1216.)

Zarove what is important to note is the differnce between what is known as "theoretical dogmatic intolerance" which can never be a sin or a vice. It basically means that correcting false beliefs about faith and morals can never be bad. It is essentially nothing else than the expression of the objective intolerance of truth towards error.

What is not acceptable however is to hold "practical civic intolerance" . Civil intolerance consists in the personal esteem and love which we are bound to show towards the erring person, even though we condemn or combat his error. In catholic theology no one is presumed evil until proven so and the final judgment on the individual conscience rests with God himself, most cetainly not us. Charity demands we shall "love thy neighbour as thyself." Of course same measure of respect which a Catholic claims for his religion must be shown by him to the religious convictions of non-Catholics.

St. Paul declares: "Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely . . ., is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil" (I Con., xiii, 4 sq.)

Finally Zarove there are a number of threads on the forum dealing with the Inquisition if youy look in the archives, also look for Bill Nelson who is very well read on these issues.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 08, 2003.


Response to NEEDHELP WIHT CHURCH HISTORY

I was not lookign for information on the Inquesition, I was actually looking for those who supported Pagan rights in th Constantinian and post cnstantinian period. When Christainity became the official emoirial rleigion.

1233 is too far removed for these events.

-- ZAROVE (ZARODD3@JUNO.COM), December 08, 2003.



Response to NEEDHELP WIHT CHURCH HISTORY

whoops sorry must read more closely!

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 08, 2003.

Response to NEEDHELP WIHT CHURCH HISTORY

Zargove Constantine may have issued an edict on toleration but it seemed more concerned with the a absolute independence of religion from state interference. He was savage on the pagans from the little I’ve read . Here are few quotes from New Advent.org that may help:

“Constantius was an unwavering opponent of paganism; he closed all the temples and forbade sacrifices under pain of death. His maxim was: "Cesset superstitio; sacrificiorum aboleatur insania" (Let superstition cease; let the folly of sacrifices be abolished). Their successors had recourse to religious persecution against heretics and pagans. Their laws (Cod. Theod., XVI, v) had an unfavourable influence on the Middle Ages and were the basis of the much-abused Inquisition.”

He doesn’t sound like he was all that tolerant at all, of course many of the Fathers would be expressing Christian principles but I don’t know who, search any of the old Church fathers on new advent.org perhaps St Basil or try searching for quotes from the names highlighted below .

“In the same way religious freedom and tolerance could not continue as a form of equality, the age was not ready for such a conception. It is true that Christian writers defended religious liberty; thus Tertullian said that religion forbids religious compulsion (Non est religionis cogere religionem quae sponte suscipi debet non vi.--"Ad Scapulam", near the close); and Lactantius, moreover, declared: "In order to defend religion man must be willing to die, but not to kill." Origen also took up the cause of freedom. Most probably oppression and persecution had made men realize that to have one's way of thinking, one's conception of the world and of life, dictated to him was a mischief-working compulsion. In contrast to the smothering violence of the ancient State, and to the power and custom of public opinion, the Christians were the defenders of freedom, but not of individual subjective freedom, nor of freedom of conscience as understood today.”

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 08, 2003.


"Zargove Constantine may have issued an edict on toleration but it seemed more concerned with the a absolute independence of religion from state interference. He was savage on the pagans from the little I’ve read . Here are few quotes from New Advent.org that may help: “Constantius was an unwavering opponent of paganism;"

Constantinus is not Constantine (if I am reading your post correctly). Constantius II, Roman Emperor (337 - 361), was the middle of the three sons of Constantine I. Here it the entire paragraph from the New Advent site on Constantius II: "Of Constantine's sons the eldest, Constantine II, showed decided leanings to heathenism, and his coins bear many pagan emblems; the second and favourite son, Constantius, was a more pronounced Christian, but it was Arian Christianity to which he adhered. Constantius was an unwavering opponent of paganism; he closed all the temples and forbade sacrifices under pain of death. His maxim was: "Cesset superstitio; sacrificiorum aboleatur insania" (Let superstition cease; let the folly of sacrifices be abolished). Their successors had recourse to religious persecution against heretics and pagans. Their laws (Cod. Theod., XVI, v) had an unfavourable influence on the Middle Ages and were the basis of the much-abused Inquisition. "

Constintine legalized and strongly supported Christianity beginning around the time he became emperor, with the Edict of Milan, but he neither made paganism illegal nor made Christianity the state religion.

The entire article on Constantine is at: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04295c.htm

I hope this helps.

In Christ, Bill Nelson

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.


Hi Bill Youre dead right, Ive got confused again! I thought they were one in the same person as indicated by the first line of New Advents bio

"His coins give his name as M., or more frequently as C., Flavius Valerius Constantinus."

But if I read the entire article or had a little more knoweldge I would have picked it up. Thanks, Ive learnt a fair bit myself.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.


Tank guys, but I neede da few names that supported Paganims. My claimw as never that every one of the early Church Fathers supporter tolerence, but I know some did.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 09, 2003.


There is a very good article here: http://www.newadven t.org/cathen/14761a.htm

That I am sure will help you.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.


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