A seemingly unique question on an old topic (masturbation)greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
I am 15 years old, and have recently converted from generic Christianity to Catholisism. My rather unique question concerns the morality of masturbation in a certian case. I gather from many Catholic sources that masturbation is a mortal sin due to its selfish nature (desire for pleasure on one's own time). I am wondering (tearing my brain apart with the whole subject) if masturbation, commited without fantisies or lust, entirely out of a strong physical feeling that some kind of sexual release is required. I started this about a year and a half ago without considering the consequences (I was in a much more leniant religion). It has become a very difficult habit to break (so far, it has not been possible) likely because of my age and the changes goin on. Any ideas on this issue when committed for such reasons?Thanks.
-- Scott Goodson
-- Scott Goodson (Scott_Goodson@hotmail.com), December 08, 2003
Hi Scott, as far as my understanding goes it is still a grave sin and it all leads back to ones passions and so on. Even if it may not be having fantises now it will lead to them and just get worse and worse, but thats how all sin is. Well thats my half cent...KeV
-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 08, 2003.
scott goodson,there are ups and downs to your situation.
Downside: there is no form of masturbation, lust or no, which does not constitute sin. the intent of the act is the same, illicit use of the sexual faculty. furthermore, i dont think its possible to have masturbation with NO lust whatsoever.
Upside: you didnt know that masturbation was a sin when you began to act on this urge. because you didnt know, your actions are more excusable. the fact that you are also addicted to the act also makes it somewhat less condemning. HOWEVER, this is not a get out of jail free card. some people struggle with this fiercely but you must always endeavor to break this habbit.
-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 08, 2003.
Me again. Wow, those were some quick replies!!! I understand what you are saying, but have some more to add. First, although I have found it is rare, I am capable of doing this specifically with no lust at all. None whatsoever because I simply think of something else and want to get it over with as soon as possible to eliminate any amount of sin that is accompanied by such thoughts. I have also found this online:Farraher is very exact about what constitutes grave malice in masturbation when he writes: "for a person to be formally guilty of a mortal sin of masturbation his act must be a fully deliberate choice of what he fully realizes is seriously sinful."13 If such an act is done with only partial realization, or partial consent of the will, it is a venial sin; and "if there is no free choice of the will there is no guilt of sin at all even if the person is aware of what he is doing."
In my case, as the last post acknoledged, I do feel a strong sense of a loss of free will concerning this issue. I do not seem to be separated from God by this (my personal feeling), but I would like anyone's opinion on this in my personal case. I do not want to burn for eternity over an issue like this.
-- Scott Goodson (Scott_Goodson@hotmail.com), December 08, 2003.
Scott, even in ifferent situations it is still a sin never the less, and should try to break the habit. As far as your ecound post i will let someone smarter then me take that one.KeV
-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 08, 2003.
scott, as kev said, you still must work to avoid sin in all occasions...
-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 08, 2003.
Psychological addiction/habit may indeed compromise freedom of choice, and may thereby partially mitigate the gravity of the sin. However, in such a case it is necessary that definite steps are being taken to break the addiction/habit. The fact of addiction or habit cannot simply be used as a convenient excuse to avoid addressing an ongoing situation that is objectively gravely disordered.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 08, 2003.
Scott, listen to what Paul M. has to say on this subject. He is right on the money. I don’t think you’re going to Hell in hand basket just yet for what you’ve done. Our Lord understands your situation and feels compassion for young people like yourself.Having said this, you don’t have carte blanche to continue doing what your Church and your God has asked you to try and control. You have a responsibility to your own salvation and to your Saviour/Creator to ensure this problem does not get out of hand. Try to avoid situations where temptation rears its ugly head. Don’t keep pornographic material around, don’t watch explicit film that you know will cause you moments of weakness. When your mind wanders try and catch yourself before you go too far. It’s more a question of disciplining your mind and controlling your urges than intentionally wanting to hurt God. Try to keep positive about all of this. You’re normal, everyone has had these fantasies/urges. Because of your biological circumstance at present this problem is not as serious as you make it out to be so don’t beat yourself up about it - too many hangups come later on in life from doing that.
And most of all Scot, pray! Don’t forget to pray! He is your best friend, so get to know Him. He has all kind of help for you if you only ask. He won’t interfere in your life, He doesn’t operate that way - you must ask Him for help! Go before the Blessed Sacrament in a Catholic church or adoration chapel and talk to Him. Go to mass occasionally during the week if its not presently your habit to do so. You’ll be surprised in the strength you gain from Him if only you make the first move.
-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), December 08, 2003.
This particular bad habit (vice) is both a curse and a hidden blessing for those who sincerely desire to please God above all else.It's a curse insofar as being a source of instant physical gratification it is highly addictive and thus weakens the will, corrupts the mind (witness all the ingenious forms of self-excuses, justifications, and worries), and closes the man's heart from real loving (self-less) relationships.
In the ideal world your first experience of sexual bliss would have been on your wedding night with your wife...and thus you'd never look at her without associating her with joy, bliss, happiness...you would associate "gratification" and "release" with her, not yourself. And it would be the frosting on the cake of true love and commitment, not something enjoyed apart...
Unfortunately this sin (and porn) creates in men a sense of "been there, done that" with EVERY woman... thus creating the sense of ennui and boredom. Masturbation and porn lead to divorce and serial relationship problems. But I digress...
For the Christian who repents, knows it is harmful and sincerely wishes to take up his cross - with Christ - and thus contribute to the redemption of the world, this sin can be the OCCASION of many blessings.
Care is needed here. Like St Paul, I'm not saying that sin is good somehow or that we should sin so that grace may flow... I am saying that God can make use of even our weaknesses and failures to teach us many valuable lessons.
First, any sin that leads to weakness of will or compulsion immediately proves to us that sin is slavery. Second, the experience shows us how miserable we are without the grace and presence of Jesus Christ. It helps innoculate us from the worst sins of Pride and Presumption whereby men come to believe they don't need God to be good!
Men who have discovered to their shame that they are slaves to a simple sin like this don't tend to fall into titanic sins of pride because they've seen themselves crushed and destroyed by the smallest of temptations....they've seen themselves betray Christ for the flimsiest of excuses... "giving away their birthrights for a pot of stew".
This type of sin (and its temptations) forces you to form a HABIT OF PRAYER... only constant, habitual raising of your heart, mind, and conscience to the Lord will give you the strength you need to achieve lasting victory over this bad habit.
The long road to recovery also means forming the habit of frequent confession - not just immediately after falling again, but above all PRIOR to falling...that is, at the first sign of a weakening of your will, the first inkling that temptation is knocking. You will find that temptation vanishes the moment you talk about it to a priest in confession.
To defeat the physical stresses that sometimes lead to this sin you'll have to do GOOD in other areas of life such as in sports: balanced diet and balanced exercise help "get all the devils out" giving you the stress-reliever a young man needs. Having wholesome fun with other guys helps relieve the psychological-stresses too.
In the end (after say, about a year) you'll be a man who prays throughout the day, who receives the sacraments frequently, who's mind is full of God and whose heart is open to other people. You'll be an athletic man who's a real team player or possibly even a leader of others. You'll be a man who is humble - who knows his limitations and doesn't presume strength in the face of deadly moral pathogens or situations... you'll be a man who is RESPONSIBLE - knowing what you choose and what you don't. Knowing that you cannot just float through life but must swim against the current...
Whatever you do, don't despair or think this sin is unbeatable. It IS dangerous. It will lead to greater and greater sin and problems. It will weaken your will, enslave your mind, and destroy every relationship.... but the power of Christ and your own will strengthened by grace and good effort can over come it and achieve lasting success...
Pray to Jesus and also ask Mary and Joseph to pray with you and for you.
We all begin rough around the edges and with our own particular crosses to carry, our own particular challenges to overcome...and no matter what, we will all sooner or later discover that we can only become perfected by relying on the presence of Jesus Christ in our soul and through habitual charity: being Christ's friend and true friends of all those who are HIS friends...
Peace.
-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 08, 2003.
Scott,My opinion is that you are seeking a free pass. At age 15, probbly most young men are having the same difficulties. It can be a difficult habit to break, but its possible through prayer, confession and a strong will.
The more you get away from it, the easier it is to avoid. I suggest cold turkey on ANY form of stimulation, through ANY sense (eyes, ears, touch, what have you.)
Yes, you CAN do it. If you don't try, you are a wimp. Its quite simple.
I also suggest reading "Courage to be Chaste" by Rev. Benedict Groeschel. Its short and easy. Order it through Amazon. (Every young man interested in living a virtuous life should read this book. Pass this message on.)
-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), December 08, 2003.
Dear Scott,
You aren't being condemned here for the sin, but rather we give insights into it, and we want to help you overcome it.You stated: ''I am capable of doing this with no lust at all. None whatsoever because I simply think of something else and want to get it over with as soon as possible,'' as though that was a natural way to treat this problem.
It's actually the way some animals do; under natural pressure. Animals, like dogs, etc., are indeed capable of letting off the need, and not thinking. We know an animal can't sin. But MAN sins; just precisely because he CAN and DOES think. He can't act on an animal instinct, because he's created in the image of God. There is no way to disengage your SOUL from any animalistic act.
Sinners who act on a natural urge without scruples are not animals, but they harden their hearts against God's grace; and set up another god to worship. That idol is their own flesh. That idol, the mere flesh we live in, is still united to a soul; and the SOUL sins, the flesh only takes pleasure, as you have indeed confessed here.
I mention scruples; and like all of us, you show these scruples, or you wouldn't be here asking us the Catholic teaching. That's excellent. Your conscience is where a scruple comes from. God stirs your conscience, and there is where your soul's defense is against breaking God's commandments. Not just sins of the flesh, all sin. This conscience, by gOd's grace is what separates us from the beasts. This is what PROVES interiorly, that you are created in the image of God. No animal has a conscience. You must always listen to your conscience and PRAY, because prayer obains us God's grace.
God bless and protect you, Scott. Be assured, He loves you with an everlasting love, and wishes to save you. We will pray for you too; and hope you grow in holiness before His eyes. To give Him greater GLORY! Amen.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 08, 2003.
This is Scott again. Thank you all very much. You were all very helpful to me and I am glad to see that there are so many people out in the world helping others like this. Again, any more comments by anyone would be great, but I have heard most of what I needed to hear. If anyone else posts, great thanks in advance.
-- Scott Goodson (Scott_Goodson@hotmail.com), December 08, 2003.
Scott Goodson,To all rich wisdom given to you by others, I would add a bit of my own thoughts and help. Try and see if this will supplement your battle with the flesh. Take only if it helps. Sometimes, masturbation reveals a deep seated problem of discontentment, unsatisfaction, of being unwanted, or a poor self image or self esteem. Do you feel small, insignificant, unwanted, not good looking, unworthy, etc? In short, inferiority complex? But, God has a high regard for you and loves you. I would suggest you reading scriptures like Psalm 51, Psalm 103, and Isaiah 43:1-4, etc. when you are feeling guilty, or feeling low or unwanted. Trying doing something like small errands, some help at home, help some needy man, etc. so you feel some genuine fulfilment for the day
. Whenever you fall in sin, immediately repent before God and resolve to make a confession as soon as possible.
Say this prayer, imagining the Heavenly Father looking on his beloved Son Jesus bleeding in agony on the cross, and the Holy Spirit coming down to heal you and bless you, and say this prayer on the beads of the rosary to relieve you from your guilt feelings.
Heavenly Father, Jesus my Savior, Holy Spirit my Counselor; I love you, I praise you, and I worship you. Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia. (to be repeated three times on the big bead)
Heavenly father purify *me in the holy blood of Jesus and fill *me with your Holy Spirit. (10 times on the small beads)
Heavenly Father, Jesus my Savior, Holy Spirit my Counselor; I love you, I praise you, and I worship you. Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia. (to be repeated three times on the big bead)
Will complete one cycle *me may be sustituted by "my soul," my body, "my conscience," "my mind," "my imaginations," "my sexuality," "my relationships," "my family," etc. (using small beads)
The same prayer may become community/group prayer when used in the plural form. God bless you in your battle against sin.
-- leslie john (leslie_jn@yahoo.com), December 10, 2003.
Hello, me again. I have gathered much information from here and other sources. While some of the circumstances seem to point to this being ok, the majority of collected information indicates that it is wrong in all cases. I am going to try my very best to stop, and if I ever fail I will never resort to things such as pornography. Please pray for me. Thank you.
-- Scott Goodson (Scott_Goodson@hotmail.com), December 10, 2003.
As a Catholic and a Christian (well trying anyway and always seeking to renew my strength daily) who happened by chance to see this website I feel that I must say something. Masturbation is perfectly normal and we are far too obsessed by such matters - it is a harmless thing really unless accompanied by addiction to pornography etc. We are all humnan and everyone does it (unless they are lying) - what kind of God threatens sending someone to hell for this supposed sin?Is He not the God of mercy who loves us more than we can imagine.
Surely God wants us to know Him better - and he forgives us such minor imperfections. What kind of crime warrants being burned forever in an everlasting fire - mass murder, rape, genocide but for masturbation????
Imagine having a million blowtorchs on your body for a second - how about a minute or a day or a year or 1000 years or 1,000,000 x 1,000,000 years - what kind of offence justifies that - from a God of love?
If you want to control someone, find something everyone does and describe it as evil and deserving of hell and worry that person to mental illness - then you can get him to do your will - sounds like the work of the devil to me. I think some of you guys need to see a psychiatrist - love your fellow man, be kind and gentle , patient and understanding - as God is surely.
-- Humanandfallible (david.mullen2@tiscali.co.uk), January 04, 2004.
Mullen, you deserve nothing but a one-word reply:WRONG!
-- (The@Scoop.com), January 04, 2004.
Humanandfallible,Our Catholic faith is not a smorgasboard religion. You can't simply pick and choose what you will believe in when it comes to faith and morals.
Now, after saying that, it is very important that we all understand why we believe what we do. I would suggest you begin by reading the Catholic Catechism. Every Catholic should know what their faith teaches.
You can find the Catechism here.
From the Catechism (I think you will find it rational):
"2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.
Sins that condem you to hell are mortal sins. reduce to a minimum, moral culpability means it would not be a mortal sin in these cases.
This forum's archives have a number of good threads on masterbation, you may wish to review.
To say God does not care if we sin is to spit on Jesus on the Cross. Jesus suffered more than you will ever know and took upon Himself ALL SIN (venial and mortal) and died FOR YOU. He definately cared about sin. You might wish to view the upcoming movie "Passion" to fully understand what He suffered.
In Christ,
Bill
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 04, 2004.
Humanfallible,
John has a good post on the subject here.
In Christ,
Bill
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 04, 2004.
Humanfallible, you're jumping to conclusions here. God predestines no one to go to hell (CCC 1037) so why should we? No one has condemned anyone here to eternal damnation! I would suggest you go back and read some of the old threads on this topic as well as the Catechism and then reconsider your comments. What most people have said is that bad habits formed in a mis-guided youth can lead to very serious problems in adulthood. That’s all! Any moral psychologist will tell you that as with any unhealthy act, masturbation if left unchecked, will result in no good.
-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), January 06, 2004.
And a couple more things "Humanfallible," contrary to what you espouse, God is not only perfectly good and beautiful, God is also perfectly just. He sees our weaknesses, but he also sees our efforts (or refusals and rationalizations.)Catholic doctrine includes the concept of Hell. Unfortunately, some souls will go there.
Also, you are totally wrong about people not having the ability to overcome sins against holy purity. It can be done. But interestingly, it is revealed time and time again that those who have not attained chastity in the lives can not or will not preach this truth.
Try taking a gander at "Courage to be Chaste" by Benedict Groeschel (I love this man). The book is short and sweet. And it may change your life to a whole new level of loving God and your fellow man.
God bless,
-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), January 07, 2004.
Cast the first stone , who is without any sin !!But anyway , you can tell the guy everything you want , if he really wants to quit , it's up to himself , if he doesn't want to , than nothing will work !! __ Like (not a good example) , I don't smoke or drink or blow , because I don't want to , for 2 reasons , my health , and it costs a ton of wasted $$$$....$$$$ !!!!!!!!
Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 07, 2004.
Scott,Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. The very life of God, who is love, dwells within us. Living our sexuality according to Gods'creative intention upholds our inherent worth and dignity.
God would not truly love us if He didn't give us the capacity to live according to His commands! The first sexual organ for you to consider is your brain. How you thnk will influence how you will act. You are not a animal in heat who does not have any control. This isn't how humans are suppose to experience freedom as a sexual beings. God has made us rational human beings who have the power to practise self control.
Its' like lifting weights young man, the more you lift the weights the stronger you will get. You need to practise "self denial" of things.Prayer, fast, and self denial will help you dig deeper into your self, and beat this addiction. Start making yourself go without a meal sometimes. The more you do this the stronger you will get in self denying yourself. Make sure you pray when you are hungry, and talk to our Lord.
Your eyes are the Camera. Don't let the pictures devolp in your mind! Its all up to you. Knowone can do it for you.
Go to Confession every week if possible, because the Holy Spirit will make you stronger in fighting your temptations. Even after you get some controll you still should keep Confessing this sin after you where absolved from it, even if you don't slip up since your last Confession.
Make yourself get up a hour early some mornings. Its doing the little things that will make you stronger to fight off the BIG things!
God bless you
-- - (David@excite.com), January 07, 2004.
David , as the person don't want to be helped , you can tell anything you want to help him , but it won't work !!Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 07, 2004.
Yes, he does want help, or he wouldn't have started a thread.I find your glee over his situation and over our attempts to help truly sickening.
Posting such vapid and cynical messages certainly does give atheists a bad name, UN-BELIEVER... I thought you guys were supposed to be the "brights" of the world, neh?
-- Lenae (elroquen@hotmail.com), January 08, 2004.
Please re-read my post above.Masturbation is a mortal sin, a spiritually deadly sin, precisely because it weakens the will and clouds the mind. If it were "no big deal" not worthy of God's wrath and had no serious consequences on the human psych and soul...then tell me, why is it so hard a vice to break?
Why do people wrap themselves in knots trying to justify it? Fact is, any use of sexuality apart from chaste matrimonial monogamy turns the will inward, makes their emotions and passions become the dominate force in their lives rather than their reason and it always reduces love.
So many unbelievers misunderstand the whole economy of salvation: we're not talking of an arbitrary set of moral rules which have heaven and hell consequences "just because".
Catholics believe that God created the universe INTELLIGENTLY, and thus, every element in the universe INCLUDING MAN has an internal order which is...get ready...INTELLIGIBLE. That is, know-able. And anything that is knowable has an order or harmony or "ecology" which if respected and nurtured allows the system to flourish and which if fooled around with or disrupted, polluted, leads to decay and death or "disorder".
Sin then isn't in our minds either some arbitrary no-no, or some power-grab scheme. Sin is a matter of verifyiably polluting the environment of one's body, mind, soul, or relationships.
It's not a matter of my opinion or your opinion. If a soul willfully chooses SELF over and above other people and God then when the soul is separated from the body, it will go to the only metaphysical state of being wherein self-absorbtion is possible: hell.
And if you think masturbation isn't about self-absorbtion then try to stop doing it for 1 month. That's one vice that quickly proves to a man how enslaved his will can become.
If you understand the harmony needed in a delicate ecosystem of a tropical lagoon...and you know for a fact that the coral, fish, mollusks, and birds live in a delicately balanced symbiosis, you'd not be so cavalier in watching some tourist come by and use a hand- grenade to go fishing with! You wouldn't be ho-hum with yacht pulling up and exhausting a couple hundred gallons of human waste and fuel oil into the lagoon! But amazingly some people have just such a cavalier attitude with their own bodies' ecology or their minds' or their souls!
And your outrage at seeing a pristine lagoon polluted wouldn't be some arbitrary matter of "taste" either. An objective, knowable, orderly symbiosis of living organisms killed or wounded is something worth being angry about.
Ditto with respect to human dignity and truth and spiritual life.
You atheists or agnostics out there have to wake up and realize that when you're dealing with Catholics (at least those of us on this site) you are dealing with heavy-hitters not intellectual light- weights.
Our faith isn't irrational and neither is our morality.
-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), January 08, 2004.
Hi, Scott. I sympathize with your problem. Even though I'm female, I also had very strong urges when I was a teen.The problem with your theory is that masturbating without lust or fantasies is pretty much impossible. Your mind will start to dwell on a certain girl (maybe not someone you know, even, but a movie star or a model)...and you will begin to objectify her and see her as an outlet for lust rather than a real living, breathing person whom Christ loves.
Also, God gave us our sexuality not as a form of release but as a means of drawing us closer to our husbands or wives. I know that there have been times in the past (before I was married, when I was having premarital sex) when I've been used as a "receptacle" for someone's frustration or release, and it is very unpleasant. I felt like ANYONE could have been there and it would have made no difference to my partner whatsoever. I'm sure that that's not how you would want your future bride to feel.
And as always, it's a good thing to ask what Jesus would do. Would He do this? I am certain that He would not.
On a final note...stay strong :) I wish every day of my life that I had saved myself for my husband. The ways that having premarital sex damaged me are too numerous to mention.
-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 08, 2004.
Hi AVC,Very good thoughts, but a little hard on yourself.
Remember, virginity is only a physical state, while chastity is a virtue. You have obviously returned to living a chaste life, and you did pursue marriage, which is a great way to deal with those temptations. (Just ask Saint Paul.)
And chastity has to do with present and future life. Just keep going the way you are and you'll be fine.
-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), January 08, 2004.
-- Lenae (elroquen@hotmail.com), January 08, 2004.1> Where did I wrote , he's not seaking for help ??
2> I follow my own thoughts !!
Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 08, 2004.
Yes, Pat, I am rather hard on myself! But I want to emphasize to Scott how long-ranging these effects can be.
-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 09, 2004.
AVC,Everyone makes mistakes when they are young.
You can't put a older head on young shoulders. I'm sure your husband is a very blessed man to have you.
God bless you
-- - (David@excite.com), January 09, 2004.
Dear AVC;
We can't live in the past. You must have repented your sins already. Your virginity may seem precious to you now, looking back. It was beautiful; but in this life nothing lasts forever. Even life-long virgins sin against God and their neighbor.There may come an opportunity for you one day. If another girl can be helped to live chastely; help her. Influence her and help her against temptation. If some woman had been there for you, you might not be here now lamenting a past sin.
Above all-- Pray every day for teenagers and children. God answers us; your prayers count!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 09, 2004.
You are all so kind!Scott, I had no intentions of hijacking your thread here with my own musings! I just wanted to convey the pain this has caused me over the years ... I hope you will remember that when you're tempted one day. Your bride is out there waiting for you. Save yourself for her :)
-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 12, 2004.