I have posted some responses from a traditional Catholic perspective, only to have them removed by the moderator. I can accept that - the moderator can set the rules. However, Lutheran Jeanie creates thread after thread (and long at that) that are completely inappropriate for this forum. Can someone please explain why anti-Catholics get free reign here, while traditional Catholics get their responses deleted within an hour? Kind of reminds me why I started looking into traditional Catholicism in the first place. My former priest told us not to attend a Gerry Matatics talk, yet a few weeks later we were encouraged to hear a Muslim speaker. It makes no sense to me!

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), December 05, 2003

Answers

To whoever said the remark about the "heathen" Jews and Muslims who won't go to heaven because they don't "BELIEVE" in Jesus -

I think that's a very arrogant thing to say. Who's to say on whom heaven smiles? I'm Catholic, yes, but I certainly don't think that Jesus is the ONLY way. God is made known in many ways to different people. There are many windows to God, many paths to heaven. That's all I have to say. -

-- David Dulin (ddulin@hotpop.com), December 05, 2003.

Jeanie, lets talk ecumenism....

starting with aboriginies (sp?). lets take a group that lives on a desolate undiscovered island. never ever had ANY contact with christians. they worship their coconut tree on the top of the mountain and follow the commands of their faith (none of which, consequentially, violate the commandments of christianity). not one person from the island is ever exposed to christianity in any way shape or form. jeanie, do you really think God would doom someone to hell for having never had the chance to even learn of Him?

now, this doesnt mean that your staunch line lutheran will necessarily get into heaven by some all powerful "ecuminical" clause. naturally, jeanie, you have been exposed to truth and have rejected it. therefore, you dont slip under the bar.

salvation for the heathen is reserved for those who by no fault of their own have never been exposed to the truth in a proper manner. It is NOT however, in place for those who defy truth.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 05, 2003.

Dear David Dulin:
You haven't learned this in any Catholic doctrine: ''I'm Catholic, yes, but I certainly don't think that Jesus is the ONLY way. God is made known in many ways.''

Wrong, David. As a Catholic you should know, NO OTHER AVENUE EXISTS AT ALL; EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST, for the salvation of sinners.

This isn't arrogance; although we aren't permitted to despise any unbeliever. We must pray earnestly for the conversion of sinners.

The Church has taught from the beginning, it is SIN that damns men to eternal punishment. Our sins will always damn us; and no sin can ever be forgiven except through the passion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Even a Catholic dying in sin is damned. (Does that seem arrogant? It's true.) Much more so the unbelieving.

Nevertheless, in one aspect you are correct. No wisdom in the universe can foretell the infinite mercy and love of God for His creatures. No man can truly know who is damned-- that person. It can easily be surmised, but we aren't free to condemn anybody. God is the sole Judge. In fact, Jesus Christ Himself will judge every soul, Moslem, Jew, Catholic or atheist.

We are His people and the world rejects us as it rejected Jesus. Despite this, we are under an obligation as faithful Catholics to set an example for the world; in hopes of universal salvation. This comes under the heading of evangelization. We may think it's impossible to convert everbody. But we have the obligation to do our best. God has His own ways; and He can certainly convert any soul He pleases. If and when He chooses to do that, it will ONLY be through the blood of His Holy Son Jesus Christ; no matter what a soul may have believed in this life. The blood of Jesus can save all the world, if all the world repents perfectly and completely of SIN.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 05, 2003.

Paul you're wrong! The bible says that there is no excuse!

Romans 1

19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 05, 2003.

Paul:
You haven't clarified something. ''salvation for the heathen is reserved for those who by no fault of their own have never been exposed to the truth in a proper manner. It is NOT however, in place for those who defy truth. --BUT A HEATHEN WHO DIES IN SIN IS DAMNED; SAME AS ANY OTHER SOUL. Make this understood next time we discuss ''invincible ignorance''.

Those who do not accept the truth when it's revealed are ''as the heathen and the publican,'' (Matt 18:17). The Catholic Church is our guarantor of the revealed truth. ONLY the Catholic Church.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 05, 2003.

Gene gets it. Could we hash it out on details? I guess, but he gets it, so I'm settling. Gene wins.

Bilal, your Catholic Lebanese people in the Maronite Rite taught my kids to say the Hail Mary in the native language of Christ. They said it at the kitchen table the other night. It's beautiful.

Keep moving to the truth.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 05, 2003.

I forgot to mention in my original post - the priest who "warned" us against going to hear a traditional Catholic presentation left the priesthood a few months later. Evidently he was worried about his flock being exposed to traditional ideas, while at the same time was contemplating abandoning his flock altogether. The Muslim, by the way, was invited to talk in the church hall. Gerry Matatics rented a meeting room at the Holiday Inn. Things seem backwards sometimes in the modern church.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), December 05, 2003.

Nick:
If you presume to know ''he was worried about his flock being exposed to traditional ideas, while at the same time was contemplating abandoning his flock altogether,'' then it's logical to expect YOU to also sense that this was NOT a catholic priest. I mean, what does it require for you to see he was untrue to his vocation?

Whatever the ''worry'' was, you'll never know. For God's sake and in respect for His holy Church, be intellectually honest when you report these things. Put your agenda to one side and state only the facts.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 05, 2003.

to Emerald (emerald1@cox.net) well i cannt judge anyone but i think i can talk about their acts! . cathlic in lebanon really scared me away from the catholic church tho! ... u know they go and do everything bad durring the week and then in the end on the week the go to chuch to ask for forgivenss! does it go like that ??? well i dont think thats what God wants from us to do! ..its like they are lieing to God ! .. they say forgive us and then go back to sins alll over again! .. and specially now , u know when i got married with jeanie , she really showed me how the real christian person should be ! .. she always obey me like hoe jesus said and i always respect her too! .. but i never saw that in the cathlic wives too! .. she is very wonderful wife ( jeanie ) , i would never ask more ! now im very proud im from lutheran WELS because its very a wonderful teaching! .... if we sin we have to feel sorry fast and then try OUR HARDEST not to do it again! ... not like how the cathlic always use to do! ... thanks God now i know the right way and no i dont wanna be catholic thank u :) nice to meet u and bye !

-- Bilal( Jeanies Husband ) (Lebanese_guy23@hotmail.com), December 05, 2003.

Well, hmmm.

Ah! Alright, try this: Scripturally speaking, you are the spiritual head of the family, so to speak, correct? Ask Jeanie if that's the case.

If so, then let's go that route...

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 05, 2003.

To eugene c. chavez --

You said: ---You haven't learned this in any Catholic doctrine: ''I'm Catholic, yes, but I certainly don't think that Jesus is the ONLY way. God is made known in many ways.'' Wrong, David. As a Catholic you should know, NO OTHER AVENUE EXISTS AT ALL; EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST, for the salvation of sinners.--- I say: Well, I respect the committment level you have for your faith. I love the Church as much as you. BUT, I am not a robot. I am not a puppet. I am my own mind, my own heart, my own soul. I do not let others spoon-feed me what I "should" or "should not" believe. I think for myself. God gave us a brain and He/She/It expects us to use it. I follow my conscience, and if my conscience leads me to differ from the Church on some point, so be it. The religious thing would be to remain true to yourself. Peace. ~

-- David Dulin (ddulin@hotpop.com), December 05, 2003.

My husband already found the truth Emerald in the WELS.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 05, 2003.

David D.
What's the use of talking, then? I thought for a moment you were a thinking person and so I explained.

The teaching of Christ's Church is clear and unassailable. By telling us only robots accept something as unassailable (a fifty cent word for TRUE), you tell us the Church can teach what's false when you feel like it. Next you'll tell us Jesus Christ didn't rise from the dead, since it's not necessary to believe everything the Church teaches. (Because your conscience is clear?) You appear to be a fallen away Catholic, I'm sorry.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 05, 2003.

to Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), well ... sure she accepted me as the spiritual head of the family !or otherwise i wouldnt marry her;) .. jeanie is the most wonderful woman in the whole life! .. trust me Emerald i never met a woman like her in my whole life before ! .. she always obey me and submit me and i always respect her too! .. and yes sure im the spiritual head of the family, and i think thats the Job god gave to me as a husband and im happy with it ! i really never seen that before with the catholic in lebanon but now thanks God im soo happy to be lutheran :) bye for now !

-- Bilal(Jeanies Husband) (lebanese_guy23@hotmail.com), December 05, 2003.

Don't answer this poor guy, Emerald. Leave him to heaven; wifie has lobotomized him.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 05, 2003.

Gene,

O.K., maybe I assumed too much. You wanted just the facts:

1) The priest in question (as did the other priests at the other two churches in my town) came right out and said that he was worried about what we would hear at the presentation. The exact phrase was "this event is not sanctioned by the church". He mentioned Gerry Matatics' disapproval of the Novus Ordo Mass, which the priest said was produced by the Second Vatican Council. I have since learned that that is incorrect. Vatican II did no such thing.

2) A few weeks later we were encouraged to attend a talk *on church property* given by a Muslim. This was shortly after 9/11.

3) A few months after the Matatics presentation, the priest in question left the priesthood. O.K., maybe I was wrong when I assumed he had been pondering this decision even as fact #1 occurred. I concede that point to you. Maybe he woke up that morning and decided all of a sudden.

These three facts probably fall under the "who cares" category, but it made me aware of the topsy turvy nature of the modern Catholic church in my area. The three parishes in my town have been known to host Jewish Seders, Muslim speakers, Life Teen Mass, liturgical dance, puppets during the homily, jugglers, etc. But let one traditional Catholic speaker come to town, and suddenly the priests have panic attacks. Oops, I'm not stating the facts again. Sorry Gene. I meant to say "appear to have panic attacks".

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), December 05, 2003.

to you eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net) well i think maybe ur just feeling jelous man ;) .. u cannt be the spiritual head of your family HUH?;)... lol... well God made u a man! .. so if ur not a man then dont be shy just say it :))! and anyways ! ... if u call ppl who follow God words are lobotomized! then i cannt punish u ! God will! ... bye bye Kid :)

-- Bilal ( Jeanies Husband ) (lebanese_guy23@hotmail.com), December 05, 2003.

Eugene: I'm sorry you feel that way about me. But I am content in believing what I believe, and that's all that matters. Peace and God bless. ~

-- David Dulin (ddulin@hotpop.com), December 05, 2003.

I noticed that the moderator has removed Jeanie's threads. Thank you moderator. I withdraw my complaint.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), December 05, 2003.

Nick, this is the trend in all the liberal churches. I just left ELCA (the liberal lutheran church) for the same funny business. Now I am in a church that is faithful to God and who is teaching the Word in truth and purity. I am so grateful to God! That is what is most important to me. I love God and I want to be faithful.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 05, 2003.

Jeanie,

Are there any other Protestant denominations that teach the Word in truth and unity? I realize you have not personally experienced most of them - but are there any that you believe do so?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 05, 2003.

Dear Bilal:
My reference to your ''lobotomy'' is of course ironical-- a joke. You may ask why?

It's rich in irony because we see you rhapsodizing in the joy of living as a complete Christian at last ! ! ! How does one say it in Lebanon? You are given a ride to the stars on a magic carpet? Your ecstasy is something ''so'' altogether sweet, as you praise the good wife and her successes. Both of you, secure now, because you reached the stars in Lutheranism ! ! !

But you are deceived. Nothing wonderful has happened at all, you are drugged with self-absorbed religious fanaticism. Lutheran fanaticism much like the old Islamic slavery to the Quuran. The main difference for you-- a MACHO man from the land of great men; is you credit your fine wife for bringing you into the truth.

But she didn't bring you into the truth. She only brought you where she is herself; half-way there. Her own ancestors were faithful Catholics! You are living in marriage with a renegade Catholic. She abandoned the Church of the apostles and Christ, for a heretical church.

Jeanie exchanged GOLD for Silver. She doesn't even realise how she is cheating YOU out of the great truth of God! The GOLD of the original CATHOLIC teachings of Jesus Christ and the holy apostles.

But-- she makes you happy. Oh, well. You are happy with silver when your wife refused gold.

I feel truly sorry for you, Bilal. If you know how to PRAY; ask Jesus why I feel sorry for you and Jeannie. Maybe He'll open your poor eyes.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 06, 2003.

Paul asked: Are there any other Protestant denominations that teach the Word in truth and unity? I realize you have not personally experienced most of them - but are there any that you believe do so?

It's truth and purity not unity. The short answer is no. There are a few churches who are in fellowship with us whom wouldn't be of course if they were not in complete doctrinal unity. And there are a few other Lutherans synods who we are not in fellowship with whom I respect immensly. The smaller synods tho. Both ELCA and Missouri synods are heretetical.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

Eugene, I am not going to speak for my husband, but he has already found the truth. He was raised in a Muslim country with a high percentage of Catholics and didn't convert to your false religion for what he considers obvious reasons. He converted when I brought to him the true and unadulterated Word of God.

The biggest testimony to him was how each of us put our faith into practice. I live my faith every day. I love Jesus and it shows in my words and deeds. This is not so with Catholics. What kind of faith is it that you can run around sinning, living morally depraved lives, and still believe you are going to heaven just because you are Catholic?! Is this what God said? No.

Go back to the Old Testament and look how God's chosen people time and again betrayed him. Look at the things that God tells them through the prophets like Isaiah! I see a God who is hurt because all he wanted was for his children to be faithful, yet they made a mockery of him. Today, the New Testament Church is the new Israel. God says through Paul, "You are a chosen people a royal priesthood." All he wants from us is to be faithful. To love him, and him alone. And to show that love to the World by good holy lives according to his Word.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

So, in other words you make the same claim for your denomination that every other denomination makes for itself - "we are right and they are all wrong". And no denomination, yours or any other, has ANY authoritative reason to make such a claim.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 06, 2003.

Actually, Paul, I'm not going to say that. Only God knows for sure. Do we believe that we are faithful to God? Yes. Is it important to us? Yes.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

That's fine by you. But is it the way Jesus Christ wanted? If that's what you think, why can't ''both ELCA and Missouri synods'' invoke the same reasoning? You claimed they're heretical. It follows they think you are. Both sides claim to interpret the Bible with accuracy.

You are as heretical as they are. It can be shown even scripturally; but you'll only misconstrue the Word of God clinging to your heresy.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 06, 2003.

Jeannie, I'm relieved you aren't going to speak for your husband. Because he could easily go higher, you aren't an authority.

You say with great self-assurance ''how each of us put our faith into practice. I live my faith every day. I love Jesus and it shows in my words and deeds.''

Leading to: ''This is not so with Catholics. What kind of faith is it that you can run around sinning, living morally depraved lives,''-- Your words and deeds show your great faith?

How is calumny against others showing your faith? If you can truthfully declare Catholics ''run around sinning, living morally depraved lives,'' off the top of your head, I will concede your great faith. But it's NOT truthful, you bear false witness. That's condemned in the eighth commandment. I'm amazed you can contradict yourself so blatantly. I have NEVER presumed to say Lutherans live depraved lives. If I were to say that now, my sin would be apparent to all. I definitely can state you have borne false witness today. It's here in black & white. Thanks for disabusing us all.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 06, 2003.

First of all, I dont have the time or the patience to sit here and tell u about all the errors in the LCMS or ELCA. I doubt if I did that you would have the patience to read it

Secondly, I was merely reporting to you what my husband witnessed all on his own with no help from me. You can deny it if u like, but we know the truth.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

You may believe whatever he tells you. All I know is Catholics stand before God as their judge; not him-- Not you.

You have given false witness. When you tell us you speak the truth, your nose grows like a cedar of Lebanon. Ask Bilal how big those get. Ha!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 06, 2003.

OK EUGENE! YOU BACK ON MY IGNORE LIST. I'm not going to read your posts anymore they are filled with venimous LIES!

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

Just keep on ignoring me. I'll be here right after you make the mistake of posting your gross errors, to push them in your Cedar-of Lebanonian nose. This is what you bargained for when you came bashing, Jeannie.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 06, 2003.

*yawn*

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

moderator, how is jeanie still here? her violations of the forum rules constitute a much larger offense than any of the threads on SSPX debate ever did!!!

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 06, 2003.