Saul and the Medium-Womangreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread
1 Samuel 28,7-19 Strange story... it's obvious that a divination and "contacting" the dead are things God abominates; but was it Samuel whom Saul saw? If it was not, then that spirit really showed a lot of respect and fear for God. If it was, then how can a medium call a saint from heaven when she pleases?I think it's catholic doctrine that everytime someone try to contact a dead person, demons take advantage of this situation and pass themselves off as the person's spirit "invoked". (I'm thinking of St. John of the Cross, but these lines are hard to translate). I think that is also what we say of Ouija(sp) boards, don't we?. I need some help with this please. Blessings.
-- Cristian (email@example.com), October 11, 2002
AnswersHi, Cristian. You ask,
"was it Samuel whom Saul saw?"
"If it was, then how can a medium call a saint from heaven when she pleases?"
This was prior to the death and resurrection of Christ, and so Samuel did not come from heaven, but from the place where the righteous were kept in the "limbo of the fathers" before they brought to heaven when Christ died.
"I think it's catholic doctrine that everytime someone try to contact a dead person, demons take advantage of this situation and pass themselves off as the person's spirit 'invoked'."
God can write straight with crooked lines, and so He can use someone's sin and draw good out of it. He does not will the sin or want the sin, but once the sin is committed, He can use it to have a good effect -- in this case, have Samuel warn Saul of his foul behavior.
"I think that is also what we say of Ouija(sp) boards, don't we?."
Yes, certainly. They lead to contact with evil spirits that can draw a person into eternal damnation. But we could not preclude, for example, Jesus suddenly appearing while a person uses such a board, and saying, "Stop doing this."
-- Chris B -- October 15, 2002.Thanks for the help Chris.I'm going to do some research about the "limbo of the fathers" because I thought some people could go to heaven before Our Lord's Resurrection, that's why I thought Samuel was there. By the way, is there a "search engine" at this site? once I read a message of how one could search something in this site, but I can't find it! Blessings, and thanks again Chris.
-- Cristian (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 15, 2002.Christian,
If you want to search a particular site, you can do the following in Google.com:
eucharist catholic site:www.greenspun.com
This searches the greenspun website for pages containing the words "Eucharist" and "Catholic."
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), October 15, 2002.Thanks Mateo, funny e-mail you've got there : ) Blessings.
-- Cristian (email@example.com), October 16, 2002.You're welcome, Cristian. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Paragraph I. Christ Descended into Hell
632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Saviour, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for **all the dead, whether evil or righteous**, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead." The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
-- Chris B -- October 16, 2002.
-- The Thread Restorer (Thread@Restoration.com), December 02, 2003
I am not at all sure that contacting the dead is automatically something that the Church either disaproves of or abominates. There is an exteremely extensive literature of Saints who talked to the dead, either from Purgatory, Heaven or even Hell. Nor is it a simple matter of the souls in question contacting the living without their volition...again the literature points to people contacting the dead through the saints. On the surface this appears little different from that of psychics... For instance Padre Pio, Saint Catherine of Genoa, Saint Gertrude, Dom Bosco.... I suspect that the line between the two lies in the Holiness of the person who contacts or is contacted by the dead. Love makes the difference...
-- Padraig Caughey (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 03, 2003.
The Church (speaking what Jesus taught) tells us that we are not always forbidden to speak to the souls of those whose body has died. We are only forbidden to do this when our purpose is what is called divination. This passage from the Catechism explains it:
"2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to 'unveil' the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone."
God bless you.
-- J. F. Gecik (email@example.com), December 04, 2003.