St. Paul & Role of Women : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

Timothy 2:11-14

2:11Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection. 2:12But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness. 2:13For Adam was first formed, then Eve; 2:14and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression

Is it possible St. Paul was sexist? How do Catholics view the role of women and this verse?

"I think that Paul perverted Jesus' message. His message differed from the original 12 apostles messages. He even tells the new churches to ignore the apostles (Galatians 1:8-9, possibly Phillipians 3:2-3 (he is referring to someone (Jesus' disciples) as dogs, and brings up his teaching that it isn't necissary to be circumsised anymore, because the true church makes up for it... a very contraversial topic in those days), II Thessalonians 3:14... others...)"

I didn't write that. I just read it and had to see what you guys thought.

-- Presence (, December 02, 2003


Notice that St. Paul wrote: "I permit not ..."

This kind of language lets you know that he was enunciating -- for his own ministry, not for all of Christianity (since he was not pope) -- a series of changeable disciplinary rule. The Apostles, like their successors today (Catholic bishops), had the authority to impose such rules. We can be confident that these rules were appropriate for the times and places of St. Paul because, if they were sinful, God would not have allowed them to become part of his revelation to man.

God bless you.

-- J. F. Gecik (, December 02, 2003.

Actually, Paul's writigns made since in historical context.

Most today subscribe to many misconceptiosn about the past, oen of those is that woemn where treated as equels to men in Pagan societies, and Chrisainity, lead by Paul of course, made them second class citisens. The truth, however, is that the Pagan societies treated women as slaves, basiclaly property of their dathers till they married,then property of their husbands.

In Greek Law women where forbidden to speak in assemblies or religious services, and women where to be viled, espexially if they had had sex. Even with their own husbands. You see, a woman alone bore the shame of sex. Men on the other hand where free to enjoy sex as often with as many women as they liked. Even through Rape.

Women where to be subject to men, as they where infirior to men.

The CHristain Church was an oddity for the culture at the time, it allowed women to participate in the serivces, and allowed them to be Baptised. This alone broughtg scanbdal, so Paul, in his pursuit to keep peopel alive in light of the constant double cultural threat of civil mobs rushing the churches and the authorities arresting and killign women, men, and chikdren shoudl such practices be brought to light, instructed the early Church in the greek world to aquiess to the laws of the land and cultural norms of the day to preserve lives.

By dxisallowing women to speak, he safeguarded their lives. The Church was in Scandal enough, it needed not more.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 02, 2003.

For a very good Catholic reading of Paul, read Leo XIII's Arcanum.

-- Skoobouy (, December 02, 2003.

Dear Moderator:
Precisely BECAUSE we demand the truth, a meddler like Jeannie should never be allowed to post here after today. Her obstinacy over the weeks has disqualified her from any further courtesies in this forum. I'm sure most Catholic contributors will agree with me. Give her the BAN right away, please! Not only this thread, but anywhere her name appears. Do it for the love of God ! ! !

-- eugene c. chavez (, December 02, 2003.

Hey, where'd those posts go by whats-her-name?

-- Presence (, December 02, 2003.

Here it is:) (psssssssst good thing I made a copy huh! They've deleted it 3x already- Guess they are afraid of the truth!)

Well we go by them in MY church! Women in my church cannot vote or have any spiritual authority over men what so ever! She cannot be a pastor or elder or have any position at the church in which she has authority over a man! Unlike the RCC! I went for my little baby cousin's baptism at a Catholic Church and a NUN was doing it! That would NEVER happen in MY church! What God said through the Apostles he MEANT!This is yet another example of how far to the left the RCC has actually gone! All scripture is God-breathed and is outside of time. Doctrine doesn't change with time or the popular opinion of the day and the Church should never bow down to and cave into political intrest groups such as feminists. What God said he meant for ALL TIME!.....both in season and out! Both when it is popular and when it's not!


Introduction to the Scriptural Principles Daily Prayers The 1960s and 1970s witnessed many changes in the attitude and practices of American society concerning male and female roles in life. These developments naturally led to questions being raised concerning the practices of the church in this matter. In response to such questions and to encourage a careful scriptural evaluation of the practices of our synodical schools, the Commission on Higher Education in April of 1978 adopted theses entitled "The Role of Man and Woman According to Holy Scripture." With the approval of the Conference of Presidents (COP) these theses and an exposition of them were submitted to the 1979 WELS convention. The convention, in turn, encouraged the districts of the synod to study them.

As a result of feedback from this study, the 1981 convention directed the COP to prepare a pamphlet addressing this subject. A committee of ten pastors, one from each district of the synod, was appointed to produce that pamphlet. The pamphlet which they produced, "Man and Woman in God's World," was published in 1985 with the approval of the COP. In 1987 "Man and Woman in God's World?An Expanded Study" was made available to provide more detailed exegetical background to the first pamphlet.

All three of these studies concluded that Scripture teaches that already at creation God established differences in male and female roles for this life on earth and that these differences in roles are still applicable today. A number of voices were raised in the synod, however, questioning whether such an "order of creation" was actually taught in Scripture.

The 1989 synod convention received a memorial requesting that "Man and Woman in God's World" be adopted as an official doctrinal statement of the synod and a counter-memorial suggesting that the pamphlet not be adopted as an official doctrinal statement since Scripture itself serves as an adequate statement of the doctrine. The convention resolved to receive "Man and Woman in God's World" as a correct exposition of the scriptural teachings in this matter. It urged the COP to prepare a brief, formal doctrinal statement for consideration at the 1991 convention.

In response the COP appointed a committee of five pastors to draw up such a statement. A preliminary draft of the statement was published in the Northwestern Lutheran with a request for comments and suggestions. A revised edition of the statement entitled "Scriptural Principles of Man and Woman Roles" was submitted to the convention by the COP. The convention accepted the statement as a correct exposition of scriptural doctrine and asked that members of the synod be given additional opportunity to suggest refinement of wording. It also asked the COP to authorize the preparation of study materials to help members of the synod study this issue in Scripture.

The committee responded by gathering additional suggestions for refinements in wording, and the COP submitted a revised edition of the statement to the 1993 convention, which adopted the reworded statement as a correct exposition of scriptural doctrine. The convention also requested a "brief, practical statement with a positive tone."

In response to the request of the 1991 synodical convention for study material, Prof. John Brug prepared a ten-lesson Bible study with teacher's manual entitled "A Bible Study on Man and Woman in God's World," which was published in 1992. In response to the request of the 1993 convention for a brief, practical statement, Pastor Walter Beckmann prepared "The Spirit in Which We Apply the Scriptural Roles of Man and Woman," which appeared in 1994.

"Scriptural Principles of Man and Woman Roles" is, thus, based on well over a decade of study by three different study groups. The doctrinal substance of its conclusions was adopted by three successive synodical conventions. This statement was not intended to be a comprehensive statement about scriptural roles for men and women. It is a brief doctrinal statement which addresses, both in a positive and negative way, specific issues which were points of controversy at the time the statement was composed. It strives to give balanced attention both to the spiritual equality which men and women share in Christ and to the different roles which God assigns to men and women in this earthly life. It emphasizes that the principles governing these different roles were established by God at creation and remain valid.

Scriptural Principles of Man and Woman Roles

In order to express our harmony in doctrine and practice with what God teaches in the Holy Scriptures about man and woman, we present the following statements as our confession:


God created man and woman in His own image. The divine image gave man and woman spiritual equality in their relationship to the Creator (Ge 1:26,27; Col 3:10; Gal 3:28).

In love God established distinct male and female responsibilities (Ge 2:7,18,22) for the man and woman to whom He had given spiritual equality. These responsibilities involved headship for man and submission for woman. These roles demonstrated God's unchanging will for the complementary relationship of man and woman with each other. Two New Testament passages attest to this: 1 Co 11:3,8,9 and 1 Ti 2:12,13.

God established roles for man and woman in His creative plan before He united them in marriage and before they fell into sin (Ge 2:7,18,22; 1 Co 11:3,8,9). Therefore God's assigned roles apply beyond the marriage relationship and in every period of history. The Fall

All commands of God and all roles established by God are for our good (1 Jn 5:3; Ps 19:8,11). To ignore or reject them harms our relationship with God and with each other (1 Pe 3:7; Eph 6:3; Ro 13:2- 4).

When they sinned, man and woman lost the image of God and their perfect relationship with their Creator (Ge 5:1-3; Isa 59:2). Man and woman also lost their holy and harmonious relationship with each other (Ge 2:16,17; 3:12,16). Restoration

God loved all men and women so much that He sent and sacrificed His Son to reestablish the holy relationship they once had with Him? Justification (Ro 5:8; 2 Co 5:18,19,21; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10).

Men and women enjoy equal status in their reestablished relationship with God when He brings them to faith in Jesus (Gal 3:26-29; Eph 6:9).

The restoration of God's image in us is a gradual process which goes on throughout our earthly lives?Sanctification (2 Co 3:18; Eph 4:12- 16). The Holy Spirit accomplishes this restoration by the power of the Gospel (Jn 17:17; 1 Th 3:13). Headship

As God restores His image in us, we grow in our ability to live in our God-assigned roles for Jesus' sake (Eph 5:21?6:9; Col 3:18?4:1; 1 Pe 3:5-7).

Scripture teaches that headship includes authority (1 Co 11:3,10; Col 1:18; 2:10; Eph 1:22; 1 Ti 2:11,12). Authority should not be used to dominate but to serve others (Mt 20:25-28).

Christ exercised His headship with sacrificial love (Eph 5:25), humility (Php 2:5-8), and service (Eph 5:28,29), and asks all believers to carry out their roles of authority in the same way (Mt 20:25-28).

In applying the principle of role relationship, the church will emphasize the duties and responsibilities of men. God holds Christian men accountable for the use of the authority He has given them and will grant His blessings when men exercise this authority out of love for Christ (1 Pe 3:7; Col 3:19).

Believers in Christ live under His headship with willing submission, respect, obedience, and love toward those in authority (Eph 5:21?6:9). In the Home

The role relationships of man and woman find their fullest expression in the close union of marriage. In a Christian home a husband and wife are partners and co-heirs of God's gracious gift of salvation (Eph 5:22-33; 1 Pe 3:1-7).

Since God appointed the husband to be the head of the wife (Eph 5:23), the husband will love and care for his God-given wife (1 Pe 3:7). A wife will gladly accept the leadership of her husband as her God-appointed head (Eph 5:22-24).

As the head of the wife and family the husband has the prime responsibility for the spiritual instruction of the family (Eph 6:4). In the Church

The biblical principle of role relationship applies also to the gatherings of the church. All believers, men and women, will participate at gatherings of worship, prayer, Bible study, and service. The scriptural applications that a woman remain silent (1 Co 14:34) and that a woman should not teach a man (1 Ti 2:11,12) require that a woman refrain from participating in these gatherings in any way which involves authority over men.

In church assemblies the headship principle means that only men will cast votes when such votes exercise authority over men. Only men will do work that involves authority over men (1 Co 11:3-10; 14:33-35; 1 Ti 2:11,12).

All Christians, men and women, are to use their God-given gifts to serve each other (1 Pe 4:10). Women are encouraged to participate in offices and activities of the public ministry except where the work involves authority over men. In the World

Christians also accept the biblical role relationship principle for their life and work in the world (1 Co 11:3; Eph 5:6-17). Christians seek to do God's will consistently in every area of their lives. We will therefore strive to apply this role relationship principle to our life and work in the world.

Scripture leaves a great deal to our conscientious Christian judgment as we live the role relationship principle in the world. In Christian love we will refrain from unduly binding the consciences of the brothers and sisters in our fellowship. Rather, we will encourage each other as we seek to apply this principle to our lives in the world.

Because the unregenerate world is not motivated by the Gospel or guided by God's will (1 Co 2:14), we as Christians will not try to force God's will upon the world (1 Co 5:12). We will seek to influence and change the world by our Gospel witness in word and deed (Mk 16:15; Mt 5:16).

Since we affirm the preceding statements as biblical truths, we maintain that the propositions rejected below are contrary to the Word of God:

We reject the attempt to define male-female role principles only on the basis of biblical examples of human conduct because doctrine must be drawn from simple, direct statements of God's will.

We reject as a confusion of Law and Gospel the opinion that our spiritual equality before God restored by Christ (Gal 3:28) sets aside our distinctive responsibilities as guided by God's Law (1 Co 11:3).

We reject the opinion that relationships of headship and subordination are incompatible with a state of holiness (1 Co 11:3; 15:28). All New Testament passages regarding the role relationships are addressed to reconciled and sanctified men and women.

We reject the opinion that 1 Corinthians 11:7 teaches that only man, not woman, was created in God's image (cf. Ge 1:26,27).

We reject the opinion that distinct roles for man and woman were first ordered after the Fall in Genesis 3:16 (cf. Ge 2:7,18,22).

We reject the opinion that male headship and female submission apply only to marriage or only to marriage and the church (1 Co 11:3; 1 Ti 2:12).

We reject the opinion that the principle of role relationships taught in the New Testament was culturally conditioned and is not applicable today.

We reject the opinion that the principle of role relationships applies only to some people, only for some periods of history, or only to certain aspects of Christian life.

We reject the opinion that in the church assemblies only matters pertaining to the Word of God are authoritative.

We reject the opinion that the mutual submission encouraged by Scriptures for all believers (Eph 5:21; Mt 20:25-28) negates the exercise of male headship.

We reject the opinion that the word "head" as applied to Christ and man in the New Testament does not include authority.

We reject the opinion that every woman is always subject to every man. Other scriptural role relationship principles and the injunction, "We must obey God rather than men" (Ac 5:29), also govern our actions.

We reject arbitrary applications of the principle of the role relationships which do not take into account that customs which reflect these relationships as well as conditions of life may change (1 Co 11:6,16).

We reject the claim that the biblical statement "women should remain silent in the churches" (1 Co 14:34) forbids all speaking by women in the assemblies of the church. With these statements of what we confess and what we reject we offer the prayer as Christian men and women that God will fill us with His Holy Spirit, giving to each of us a better understanding of and appreciation for our God-assigned responsibilities, that in loving service to Him and to each other we hallow His name and share in His mission in every God-pleasing way.

-- Jeanie (, December 02, 2003.

My favorite passage, personally, is 1 Peter 3

1 Peter 3

Wives and Husbands

1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. 7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Ephesians 5 is a close 2nd

Wives and Husbands

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[2] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[3] 32This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

My whole family is Catholic. I went to my cousin Adam's wedding last year and I noticed that the word "obey" was omitted. Why was that?

-- Jeanie (, December 02, 2003.

Presence, Paul wasn't a sexist. God ordained the roles of men and women at the time of creation. Who can deny that Eve was created to be the helper of Adam? It's really a very beutiful thing:) And as Christian men and women we all want to live lives according to his divine will. This is not sexist it is divine harmony:)

Society today tells women that they are suppose to be something they were never meant to be. God gave women a role and it was not to be the bread winner. Does this mean that women are less than men? Not as good as men? Absolutely not! Just DIFFERENT from men. If you read the above verses carfully, they say that a husband is suppose to treat his wife with dignity and respect and with gentleness. A Christian man will look to Christ's example. He came to earth not to be served, but to serve. In fact, there is a wonderful verse about that I discovered recently:

Philippians 2 1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like- minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature[1] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature[2] of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If Christian men use Christ as their example and use their God given authority in humble compassion and in submission to the Lord and to serve as Christ served the church, then where is the problem? It's a very beautiful thing when a man and a women fit together like two pieces of a puzzle each with their own role and their own qualities working together to glorify God. Amen

-- Jeanie (, December 02, 2003.

Told you; she's the Ever Ready Bunny! Goes on bangin her little drum! Does she have something NEW? No.

She hopes to drain away resistance to her preaching by re- posting.

Which calls for quicker re-deletions. And no replies to her flood of ''contributions''. Just let them lie. (Lies is what they are.)

-- eugene c. chavez (, December 02, 2003.

Is it really all lies?

I'm asking an honest question, of my fellow Catholics. I read through most of it and didn't disagree with all of it.

Or is there something I'm missing?

-- Presence (, December 02, 2003.

We see a scattering of lofty verse throughout Faith's and Jeannie's relentless postings. This is not the kernel of their message, however. We are led to believe by these postures that they have the fulness of apostolic truth, and they haven't. No progress is ever made with free lance Chrisitans who declare their solidarity with Christ and His Gospel while they deplore and reject His very Word at the same time.

If a protestant comes here for attention and help, he/she will receive it. But coming to upstage and disparage the Holy Catholic Church, with nothing respectful to say, ever --about her authority;

That is contempt. Contempt deserves contempt, pure & simple. But we wish them well. We hope for their eventual salvation from their sin. God be Merciful! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (, December 03, 2003.

"That is contempt. Contempt deserves contempt, pure & simple. But we wish them well. We hope for their eventual salvation from their sin. God be Merciful! Amen."

Please show me where in the Bible it says that there is no salvation out side of the church? Jesus died for all... for the sins of the World. Not just some! Believe it or not I have this same argument all the time with a different group of Christians. The Calvinists (or Reformed) believe in something we call "double predestination". They say that if there were some who were predestined to be saved since the beginning of the World and who's names are written in the "Book of Life" that it only makes sense that there are also some who are predestined to be damned. That may be logical, but it's not Biblical. The Bible clearly says that Jesus came to die for the sins of all not just some. Your argument is the same. Jesus didn't die just for the Catholics. He died for ALL! The Bible clearly says:

John 1:29

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 2

5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.

In the Old Testament, God had a favored people, Israel. That was the Old Covenant. If you are as familliar with the Bible as you seem to think you are, you would know that Salvation for all humanity was to come to the whole world through the line of David and Abraham. Not just for some.

I have faith In Jesus Christ which I recieved as a gift from God at my baptism, and that is all I need to be saved!

I can show you the typical verses:

Ephesians 2

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

But what about all the people in the Gospels who were saved through their faith?

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Matthew 9:2

Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."

Matthew 9:22

Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment

Matthew 9:29

Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you";

Matthew 13:58

And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith

Matthew 17:20

He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Mark 2:5

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

What about the story of Jesus walking on water?

Matthew 14

28"Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water." 29"Come," he said. 30Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!" 31Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?" 32And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

This is a wonderful demonstration of power of faith! If he had faith it would have saved him. But what is even more magnificent is that even when he doubted and cried out, "LOrd save me" Jesus was right there to save him:)

You can call it "lies" if you want. But MY God doesn't lie.

-- Jeanie (, December 03, 2003.

What about the theif on the cross?

Luke 23

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. [6] " 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

It was his FAITH that saved him. Not his good deeds! He was a criminal!

-- Jeanie (, December 03, 2003.

''call it "lies" if you want. But MY God doesn't lie.''

God hasn't; you have. You've misconstrued all that God reveals to suit your personal heresy. Then you come here to spread a false doctrine. The lie is yours, and furthermore, you haven't any ''My God.''

God isn't the ''property'' of your soul or your Bible-studies. Jesus says to call Him OUR Father. Just to show how self-absorbed you are, to say ''My God doesn't lie.'' We all have the same God. We just OBEY Him and you don't.

-- eugene c. chavez (, December 03, 2003.

I believe Jeanie has posted in truth with a good heart and love for God. Our highest regard must be for the truth, no matter from where or from whom it comes. Light is light no matter from where, and darkness is darkness anywhere. If at least within the teachings of Christ, we cannot have unity, then in what shall we? Aren't we missing the opportunity for ecumenism with our brethren separated for the love of Christ? Maybe, all that was written is not 100% right, but the main core of the writings about roles of men and women and about ideal marriages are quite harmonious are in keeping with the divine revelation, also close to the heart of our Church.

It is refreshing to see such a person like Jeanie, than to see some rebellious feminist. We have seen how aggressive permissiveness has dewomanized American women so much that they are totally unmade themselves for any true or lasting marriage relationships. Quite edifying Jeanie, keep it up. May God bless you!

-- leslie john (, December 03, 2003.

It was his FAITH that saved him. Not his good deeds! He was a criminal!

he was also about to die, with no time to make reparations. but he did HAVE good deeds. you take everything so bluntly its ridiculous. no, the criminal didnt pay back those he stole from, or help the needy, etc, etc... but youre missing out on his great good deed: compassion. though this man knew that supporting Jesus on the cross wouldnt help him at all, he defended him against the other criminal... what better work of faith can there be, granted the situation???

-- paul h (, December 03, 2003.

Hi Leslie! Nice to meet you:) God bless you too! :):):)

-- Jeanie (, December 03, 2003.

Eugene, your Gospel is not a Gospel of love....

God so LOVED the WORLD(the whole world) that he gave his one and only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER (not just catholics) BELIEVES in him (not those who believe in him AND ALSO does good works) will NOT parish but have eternal life

-- Jeanie (, December 03, 2003.

Paul said, "he was also about to die, with no time to make reparations. but he did HAVE good deeds. you take everything so bluntly its ridiculous. no, the criminal didnt pay back those he stole from, or help the needy, etc, etc... but youre missing out on his great good deed: compassion. though this man knew that supporting Jesus on the cross wouldnt help him at all, he defended him against the other criminal... what better work of faith can there be, granted the situation???"

Ok I agree. That is an example of good works. It is also obvious that he was repentant for his sins because he said, "We deserve this". BUT! Did he do that to earn salvation? Or did it come naturally from his heart BECAUSE of his faith? Galations 5 says:

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Lutherans agree that faith without deeds is dead. But couldn't that be because our good deeds are proof that faith exists? It says here in Galations 5 that they are the fruit of the Spirit. Does Holy Scripture contridict itself?

-- Jeanie (, December 03, 2003.

If faith, when present, was always evidenced by appropriate good works, then it would be meaningless to speak of the consequences of "faith without works", because there would be no such thing. Yet the Bible repeatedly tells us that faith alone, without good works, will not save anyone. It is unlikely the Bible would offer teaching about something that cannot exist. Therefore it must be possible to have faith without appropriate good works, just as it is possible to do good works without having faith. Neither of these situations will result in salvation, since the Bible makes it absolutely clear that BOTH faith and works are essential. Faith does not save us, or it could do so without works. Works do not save us, or they could do so without faith. You can't work your way into heaven, and you can't believe your way into heaven. Our Savior saves us by offering us the saving grace of His death and Resurrection. But we must each, individually, claim the gift He is offering. Faith and works are the two essential and inseparable means of accepting the free gift of salvation. Salvation is by grace alone, because grace brings forth both the required faith and the required works.

-- Paul M. (, December 03, 2003.

Exactly! James is saying that if faith exists in the heart that it is evidenced by good works. And Jesus also said the same thing time and again!

Matthew 12 33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

Matthew 7 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So, naturally, a person with faith will bear good fruit or do good works. or a person who has faith is recognized by their fruit :)

I mean there is not doubt that good works has a connection to faith. Its kind of a question of "which came first the chicken or the egg"? When faith exists, there also will be good works. This is the 3rd use of the law!

There are 3 kinds of law in the Bible. 1)Cerimonial 2)Civil and 3) Moral. In the New Testament era we are no longer under cerimonial or civil law but the moral we are still under. No one will deny that adultry is a sin for example. There are 3 uses of the law:

1)The law works as a curb. This is for Christians and non christians a like. The law curbs our actions.

2)The law works as a mirror. This is also for Christians and non christians alike. The law shows us what we are are like on the inside. Like looking in a mirror, the law shows us that we are sinners in need of salvation.

3)The law works as a guide. This is for Christians ONLY. As Christians we WANT to live good and holy lives according to God's good and perfect and holy will because we love him and are grateful for the sacrifice he made for us. This comes naturally from the heart in people who have faith not because we HAVE to, but because we WANT to. These are good works or fruits of the Spirit :)

-- Jeanie (, December 03, 2003.

''Whosoever believes in Him,'' Jeannie, correctly stands for who takes Jesus Christ at His Word over all else; and never second-guesses Him. Who follows Him, and accepts the undefiled teachings of His apostles.

That means the faithful Catholic. Heretics have no true belief on Jesus Christ; they change what Our Lord states with clarity into something they expect it to mean. Making of Him a liar by extension. That's what all heretics attempt to do. But they really CAN'T. The Church is here everlasting, to counter-act their false teachings and preserve the Truth for faithful followers of Christ.

-- eugene c. chavez (, December 03, 2003.

Jeannie, I'm surprised at you.
''Eugene, your Gospel is not a Gospel of love.'' Do you have a gospel of love? I only know one, the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ. I haven't any of my own. Have you?

You're mistaken, as well about the laws in the Scriptures. There are no ''laws'' actually written down, except the Mosaic Law. The Law of Moses, in which come incorporated God's commandments. They do not change after the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. The moral law, by definition is within each soul. It isn't written in any manuscript, we know it by our conscience alone. You don't really find it written of; except in the words of Jesus to His listeners. As in the Sermon on the Mount and His Parables. These do not pass away, they are binding. The civil law is also never written within the Bible's pages. You only imagine it was.

We see then ONLY ONE Law written in the Bible *as a law.* The Law of Moses. In that Law was the judgment of the Hebrews' actions and in what Paul called ''works of the Law''. Not in a moral law, because this isn't committed to writing. Not the civil law, because that was just the law of Caesar.

Strike your references to Law, then. When you give us Law from Holy Scripture you have to limit the sense of that written word to Law of Moses.

This was completely fulfilled in the sinless Person of Jesus Christ the Son of God. No one else was able to fulfill that Law perfectly, that's why Paul said it condemns.

Except for the ten commandments, which remain in force according to Christ's express teaching, the Law of Moses is gone. He replaced the Old Covenant with its Law, making a New Covenant; not bound by Mosaic norms such as circumcision, ritual sacrifices or the other prohibitions made for the Israelites. Instead of the old Law, we were given grace, through Jesus Christ Our Saviour.

When Saint Paul disposes of that set of observances for Christians he calls them ''the Law.'' You have to know the difference. He didn't refer to civil, moral or quite any other LAW. Just the Law of Moses, which had conditioned the lives of every person who worshipped God before Jesus Christ came to redeem us.

You have been misled into thinking all works are somehow dismissed by Paul; when he was only talking about the Mosaic Law of the Old Testament. You are coming here with these errors to try to mislead others. Just being quick and glib with a keyboard doesn't make you a teacher here, Jeannie. You must first learn all the truth.

-- eugene c. chavez (, December 03, 2003.

As I said before, but for some reason someone removed my post, mosiac law can be broken down into 3 catagories civil, cerimonial, and moral.

Eugene, I am going to stop reading your posts. They only make me angry which is not very becoming of a child of God. So, please, don't bother.

-- Jeanie (, December 04, 2003.

Break 'em down if you wish. It still means that when Saint Paul writes of the uselessness of ''works'' he's referring to the Mosaic Law. Not to Christyian works of charity and justice. Besides, we don't claim to be saved by works alone.
Is it somehow over your head, Jeannie; how angry YOU make others here? You certainly do, and you do so arrogantly, with malice aforethought sometimes. Yet, we are expected to assimilate your anti-Catholic posts here and not complain. Therefore, it seems to me, YOU shouldn't complain if I say things that make you angry. I'm a child of God. Everything I say to you is in the service of God; no matter what you think.

-- eugene c. chavez (, December 04, 2003.

Break 'em down if you wish. It still means that when Saint Paul writes of the uselessness of ''works'' he's referring to the Mosaic Law. Not to Christian works of charity and justice. Besides, we don't claim to be saved by works alone.

Is it somehow over your head, Jeannie; how angry YOU make others here? You certainly do, and you do so arrogantly, with malice aforethought sometimes. Yet, we are expected to assimilate your anti-Catholic posts here and not complain. Therefore, it seems to me, YOU shouldn't complain if I say things that make you angry. I'm a child of God. Everything I say to you is in the service of God; no matter what you think.

-- eugene c. chavez (, December 04, 2003.

Ephesians 5 is mistranslated. There was a study done on this a while back. Of all the Greek meanings of Man being the head of his wife or whatever, NONE mean that he has power over his wife and should make the decision for her. The most likely meaning is that they are "linked" inseparably or something along those lines.

-- Some Guy (, December 04, 2003.

Genesis 3

16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Is this a misinterpretation too?

-- Jeanie (, December 04, 2003.

jeanie you seem to be very wise in the word of god. keep reading the word of god you seem to be on the right track. king solomon said seek for wisdom and you will find it, and you my friend have found wisdom god bless you

-- jason kennon (, December 13, 2003.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ