the french are passing a law to ban the wearing of head gear by muslim females in public places (schools etc). but it is designed to protect secularism in their country.

if this means repression of the growing number of muslims in france, the most muslim-populated country in france, then surely it is a good thing. Islam is evil.

discuss.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 29, 2003

Answers

a la top.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 29, 2003.

the most muslim-populated country in "france"

mmmmm. i sound like George Bush.

the most muslim-populated country in "Europe"

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 29, 2003.

The reason France is the most Muslim-populated country in Europe is that they have the least restrictive abortion laws in Europe. They have killed so many of their own children that their population is in a downward spiral, and there are no longer enough French adults to fill necessary jobs in France. Therefore they have to import workers. They can't import very many from surrounding European nations, since their birth rates are also below replacement level. Therefore they have had to import workers from Mid-East nations, primarily Muslims. And guess who doesn't kill their children, and who value large families! Muslims! France isn't just the most Muslim-populated country in Europe. They are well on their way to becoming a Muslim nation as a result of their self-destruction.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 29, 2003.

Not good! French by large as I see are not Christians, but permissive and hedonistic pagans. It not against Islam they target, but against the right to modesty of women. In a desire to bare all, they don't want to spare anybody. No exceptions, and no one to compare to. All in a sinful soup.

-- leslie john (leslie_jn@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.

Paul, where did you get your info from?

-- Presence (jacobrainey@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

Islam, it is true, has some very Fundamentalist strands of believe in the World at the present time. These Strands do not decognise the teachings of the Prophet......even in his own life-time of under-standing of the teachings of Allah....... Protestantissm, it is true, has some very Fundamentalist strands of believe in the World ar the present time. These Strands do not decognise the teachings of Martin Luther......even in his own lifetimetime of underestanding of the teachings of Sciprutere....... Catholicaism, it is true, has some very Fundamentalist strands of believe in the World ar the present time. No matter what faith we belong to it is all about love.....

At the end of the day as ST Teraesa of Avila said 'We will be judged on love'......

-- Padraig Caughey (padraigcaughey@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

It is very, very, wrong; because we happen to be Catholics to indulge in casuual sectrarianism against those of different faiths from ourselves....... It is most wrong and a temptation of Satan to speak of our Brothers and Sisters as evil....... None of us has a mononopoly on truth.... Our present Holy Father reminds us; not only in his teaching but in his life....................... to have the most profound respect for those whose road to God is different from our own........ We must always speak especialy as we do in this a Public Forum..... again and again in words of the Most Holy Charity ......... Of those who are divided from us in thier understanding of the Most Holy Spirit I discern a Spirit in speech here in talking of our Brothers and Sisters of Islam.....which is not of the Spirit if the faith.....consider and repent!!!

-- Padraig Caughey (padraigcaughey@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

Your answers show none of the Most Holy Spirit but a most evil spirit of sectarianism...for which may God forgive you and your hate.....and your bitterness.....and your sectarianism.....

-- Padraig Caughey (padraigcaughey@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

Hi Deacon Paul

"The reason France is the most Muslim-populated country in Europe is that they have the least restrictive abortion laws in Europe."

Firstly the abortion rate is just one of many reasons for Muslim immigration in France,there are many other factors involved not the least that many Northern African Mulsim nations were French colonies and these people are also French citizens. You cant blame then for leaving Algeria or Morrocco for France, its their right to do so! Secondly although not a big factor in regard to Muslim immigration an improtant point to make is that the whole of Western Europe has effectively become a border free zone in regard to trade of all resources, labour included.This involves a change of mindeset in regard to migration. Thirdly your own nation has a rapidly rising Mulsim poulation. Id have thought this and the MANY other problems in your own nation (with the USA producing more immoral goods and services than any other nation) would keep you from pontificating on the evils of other nations internal policies.

Perhaps youre an expert on France, it wouldnt surprise me actually and Im sure youll have some explanation but to me your attitude towards France/Islam is very suggestive of hard right American politican conservatism rather than Church teachings.

Tidy up your own back yard before you start bossing other poeple around SIr. You cant seriously expect others to listen to you taking the high moral ground on this issue when your own nation is such a mess.

Finally the belief that France is the most Muslim populated country in Europe is incorrect. I dont have any figures off the top of my head but would be certain that any number of Eastern European countires would have larger Muslim populations. Perhaps you meant Western Europe?

For all of Islams bad points the Church does present some postives, pity you negeleted these in your role as a man of God to play politican.

Ian while the Church condemns many aspects of Islam we need to try and find a way to move past old misconceptions and fears. I know you wont agree but nevertheless its my duty as a Catholic and not as a conservative republican to do so on a Catholic forum. Here are some words from our Holy Father:

"In the Declaration Nostra Aetate we read: "The Church also has a high regard for the Muslims, who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth" (Nostra Aetate 3). As a result of their monotheism, believers in Allah are particularly close to us... the religiosity of Muslims deserves respect. It is impossible not to admire, for example, their fidelity to prayer. The image of believers in Allah who, without caring about time or place, fall to their knees and immerse themselves in prayer remains a model for all those who invoke the true God, in particular for those Christians who, having deserted their magnificent cathedrals, pray only a little or not at all."

Peace!

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

"Firstly the abortion rate is just one of many reasons for Muslim immigration in France,there are many other factors involved not the least that many Northern African Mulsim nations were French colonies and these people are also French citizens. You cant blame them for leaving Algeria or Morrocco for France, its their right to do so!"

A: I didn't BLAME anyone for leaving their impoverished native lands for a relatively affluent nation desperately in need of workers in virtually every industry. If I were in their position, I think I'd do the same. All I said was that they would not have immigrated if jobs had not been plentiful; that jobs would not be plentiful if the French population were not decreasing steadily; and that the decrease in population is due PRIMARILY to abortion.

In order to maintain a constant population size, a nation must have a birth rate of 2.1 births per woman. The birthrate in the U.S.A. is currently very close to that. The birth rate in France is about 1.8 births per woman, which means that more French citizens die every year than are born. However, I certainly didn't mean to imply that this problem is unique to France. I only mentioned France because that was the subject of the initial post in the thread. In fact, the situation is even worse in other western European nations. Both Germany and Italy currently have national birth rates of 1.3 births per woman. These countries are in the process of rapidly dying out, and are currently surviving, both demographically and economically, only because of imported labor, primarily from Muslim nations, who may well outnumber native citizens within 10 to 15 years. In contrast, many Muslim nations have birth rates of 4 to 6 births per woman. In Yemen the rate is 7.2. And when these people immigrate into other lands, they bring their birth rates with them. As a result, all of Western Europe is becoming increasingly Islamic every year, inhabited by ever-increasing numbers of people who do NOT kill 1/3 to 2/3 of their children, and therefore 1/3 to 2/3 of their future citizenry and work force.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 29, 2003.

Also Paul a quick look around on the net and you might be right on the Muslim population in France IF you exclude Turkey and Russia becuase they are partly in Asia as well as Europe. WHile many SOuternh Eastern Nations and former states of USSR have much higher percentages of Muslim populations few have as large a population as France(France has a total population of over 60 million and a Muslim population of somewhere around 4 million )

>>>>All I said was that they would not have immigrated if jobs had not been plentiful; that jobs would not be plentiful if the French population were not decreasing steadily; and that the decrease in population is due PRIMARILY to abortion.

Well I think you said more than that including mentioning that the immigrants are from "The Middle East" from memory but Im just being pedantic. I take your point but wonder if the immigrants from Northern Africa would migrate regardless of the percieved job situation, becuase of the better standard of welfare benefits/public provision/education/future oppourtunities but Im only speculating. What would be intresting is to find out whther or not people from former French colonies are entitled to such benefits if they migrate to France and whther theyre allowed to immigrate with no work permit etc.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

Not good! French by large as I see are not Christians, but permissive and hedonistic pagans

It seems you'd like to force people to be catholic , what gives you the right ??

If they like to be pagan , atheist , nihilist , protestant or whatever , so what !!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------

Paul M , your first reply in this thread , what a piece of hatefull words against a country and people in general !! __ The French people are my neighbors , what have they done to you ?? __ Well , I'm also against abortion , but We have nothing to say about their laws , just as I normally wouldn't tell ya what my opinion is about the US !! __ But OK , as you wish , I have absolutely nothing against the US , I like the us , but it doesn't I have to agree with everything they do , just as you disagree with the french law !! __ Even , the same counts for my own country , I'm not always agree with our gouvernment !!

And when these people immigrate into other lands, they bring their birth rates with them. As a result, all of Western Europe is becoming increasingly Islamic every year, inhabited by ever- increasing numbers of people who do NOT kill 1/3 to 2/3 of their children, and therefore 1/3 to 2/3 of their future citizenry and work force.

I don't care who's muslim , atheist , nihilist , catholic , protestant or whatever !! __ Are you going to forbid them to get kids ?? __ If people have sex & get children , you know that this is normal !!

But about my country , our own citizens wouldn't like anymore , to work (for example) in the coalmines , so , they did need other people to get this job done , so , for example , the muslim people , they came and stay and they get kids !! __ Also after a while , there were no more jobs in these coalmines (empty) , so , in that case , just send back these ex-workers ?? __ NO , why would you go back , if you are settled !! __ Like , if I would move to Australia , and I love it there , than why not trying to stay there !! __ If you try to send back their kids (thirth generation , even second generation) , that wouldn't work , they are strangers in their country of origine !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 30, 2003.

laurent, stop being so bullheaded...

I don't care who's muslim , atheist , nihilist , catholic , protestant or whatever !! __ Are you going to forbid them to get kids ??

you entirely missed the point that was being made. nobody is concerned about muslims having children. they ARE concerned about the alarming abortion rates in countries like france, where laws are not strict.

on one hand, you have it easy, because you dont HAVE to care about abortion laws in other countries. Christians, however, have an inate duty to protect life, so where we see a civilization killing 1/3 of its offspring, we have a duty to step in.

nobody, however, is advocating deportment of muslims back to their home country. what is being argued for is the moral backbone which once applied to law to be reestablished.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 30, 2003.

psychopaths flying planes into high rise buildings killing thousands of innocent people.

young girls (babies) having their vaginas sewn so as to guarantee their virginity.

women forced to accept beatings from males, on account of their sex (indeed, what about that one, liberals).

murderers, strapping explosive to their chest, and annihialating women, and children in pizza parlours.

Louis Farrakhan (sp?) and his hatred.

all these things, fostered/promoted by Islam. many, rewarded by guaranteed entry to "paradise".

as the Black Eyed Peas might say ---- where is the love?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 30, 2003.

If some people don't wanna have kids , so what !!

But ok , about abortion , as I said before , I'm against it !!!! __ It's better to use a condom or another anti-conception !! __ Already , I know what your answer will be , it also destroys lifes !! __ But I look it this way , some people can't take their hands of eachother , and they really want to have or looking for sex , but don't wanna get kids , aids or another diseases , it's better to use anti-conception !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 30, 2003.

i am still wondering where concern over the massive abortion rates of a country constitutes hating a nation???? to me that appears to be having compassion for the unborn youth of that nation.

FURTHERMORE... nothing has been said against muslims by paul m either, so leslie, you owe paul m a serious apology for your senseless attack on his character while you lacked reading comprehension skills to understand his post

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 30, 2003.

Oh by the way - not that it matters - I'm French by ancestry. :-)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 30, 2003.

What kind of a fool are you, Joe Leslie?
Paul hasn't even mentioned the scores of desecrated grave-markers in French military cemeteries; where our dead who sacrificed their lives for France & Europe are laid to rest. In La Belle France!!!

The immense ingratitude and callousness of France toward her erstwhile liberators is an awful stain on that so-called Christianity. No one there has repented of this sin; much less of a soaring abortion rate. A country where four out of every ten daughters goes into insouciant prostitution is no example for us as Catholics.

This isn't hatred for France, Joe. It's sorrow and disappointment! Where is your BRAIN?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 30, 2003.

Eugene , what's the difference between Humanity & christianity ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 30, 2003.

Paul, could you give the sources of your information?

From all I have read, abortion rates in the US have been more or less two times that of France form many decades. US has something like 20/1000 rate against something like 10/1000 in France. Maybe you have access to better statistics than me, so I will appreciate if you can point me to them. And, as far as I know (I may be incorrect again, so I ask for references saying otherwise) French abortion laws are no less restrictive than those of US.

Gene, the same goes for you. My information is that abortion rates in France are stable, and not soaring. Again, could you please point to sources that say otherwise?

In addition, what do you mean by "insouciant prostitution". Do you mean that 40% of girls become prostitutes? Again, can you please give a source?

Gene, do not forget please that the US liberated Rome and the Vatican in WWII, so, to be equitable, you should also say something like "The immense ingratitude and callousness of the Vatican and the Pope toward their erstwhile liberators is an awful stain on that so-called Christianity." Don't you think it is fit?

God Bless.

-- Atila (me@nowhere.com), November 30, 2003.

No; since neither Italy nor the Church has been ungrateful. On the contrary, they are friendly to our country. As for French prostitution, we have it on simple reputation. I'm sorry to repeat evil things like that, it is mean of me.

But no one has to draw you pictures of the French demi-monde. It's known the world over. If I can be corrected about this with your best information, Ill humbly retract what I've said. I will admit it's unjust.

About gross ingratitude to the U.S. and Britain, there's nothing to retract. Read any recent newspaper.

_________

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 30, 2003.

Gene, please explain it better to me, because I simply do not get it (surely because I am a most stupid guy):

You are saying that France was ungrateful, but the Church was not.

As I understand it, you are saying that France is ungrateful because it has opposed this war. Well, the Church did the same. So, why is France ungrateful and the Vatican not? I simply cannot see the difference!!! Can you enlighten me?

Perhaps you are referring to the people, not to the government. Well, in this case the comparison is impossible, once the Vatican does not have a "population" strictly speaking. The closest that could be said about the Vatican's "population" would be the Catholic flock. Well, these also rejected the war by a far margin (indden only a small group of American-Republican-Catholics supported the war - and even so not all of them!). So, again: could you please explain the difference?

Or would it be that you just hate anyone who opposes this war, but does not have the guts to say "Yes, the pope also, the Vatican also, I hate those ungrateful, stupid, liberal-pacifist anti-American hate- mongers" ?

-- Atila (me@nowhere.com), December 01, 2003.

Oh, and by the way, if your knowledge of France is all similar to what you said about prostitution, I really do not know how any kind of meaningful discussion can take place. How can you cast callumnies so blunt (and ridiculous, at the same time) without blushing or feeling guilty???

What would you say if I said that 40% of american girls are whores, based on "simple reputation" ??? So, Anti-Americanism is the gravest sin, but anti-Frenchism is a Great Virtue ???

Your counscience is so deformed that I think that even Government propaganda cannot explain such a level of brainwashing!

Good Heavens!

-- Atila (me@nowhere.com), December 01, 2003.

Is it not true that the French and Americans are quite similar? and in fact is the very cause of ongoing friction?

Both economies are largely internal, both seem to take unilateral military action when deemed fit and both seem to think the world should be greatful for their contribution to mankind.

I think it's quite safe to say that France's contribution to Catholicsm has been monumental (considering the number of religious orders etc...).

I hear someone mentioning Calvin? Avignion? Yes, indeed. I still believe, though, it's contribution to Catholicsm has been largely positive.

The current state of moral degeneration is a world wide phenomenon. France is one of many. Also, I believe Muslims are busy growing up, maturing. They're having to face a modern world, its inevitable.

Francois

-- Franc (francois.de-fleuriot@unilever.com), December 01, 2003.

Good Heavens! (Atila.)
Your anxiety has me in tears. Yes; I was shameless; an evil man and stupid, to oppose your august judgment and ponderous public statements. Are you happy now?

I'm a failure, Atila. A deformed, hollow, broken Catholic. Should I undertake to explain why Vatican-type activity and the French type are not the same? I will only set myself up for more of your thousand-word rebuttals.

I only referred to a country in which lately British and American soldiers buried there; and in Belgium; had grave-markers vandalised; the very men who gave their lives to save France from Nazi Germany. Did you ever hear of Normandy; or maybe the Battle of the Bulge Atila ? ? ? American heroes were called vile names; the prepetrators told us to take away the filthy bones-- out of la Belle France.

Show me please, where an Italian has been so ungrateful or perverse. The Pope certainly hasn't been. You are comparing angels to blow-flies.

I speak plainly. You misunderstand in six languages. Good heavens ! ! !

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 01, 2003.

"psychopaths flying planes into high rise buildings killing thousands of innocent people. young girls (babies) having their vaginas sewn so as to guarantee their virginity.

women forced to accept beatings from males, on account of their sex (indeed, what about that one, liberals).

murderers, strapping explosive to their chest, and annihialating women, and children in pizza parlours.

Louis Farrakhan (sp?) and his hatred.

all these things, fostered/promoted by Islam. many, rewarded by guaranteed entry to "paradise". "

Thats probably the only unanswered question on this forum (if it is then forgive my eyesight). It is unanswered because it is hard hitting and 100% correct. The RELIGION of Islam is evil; the things it promotes and approves of. The people who practice it are not evil, they are mislead, braught up under this evil banner from birth knowing no other way of life. Fanatical about "getting into paradise" by doing such awful things, like a brainwashing? Who are we to judge? That is down to God. For he is the only perfect one. He should be ontop of the hierarchy - NOT A MAN OR WOMAN. We should coexist with God and let him pass judgement as he says he will at the end of this wicked world's time. If something brings pain...then surely it is wrong in the eyes of God, he brings love and joy - THE POSITIVE EMOTIONS where in heaven he says no pain will exist. Islam is condoning these acts that cause pain, SURELY THATS WRONG TO GOD. HE FORGIVES THE PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS WHEN THEY SEE THE ERRORS OF THEIR WAY AND FEEL THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FEEL GOOD CHANGING THEIR VERY SOUL. THATS GOD, NOT CANDLES OR POPES OR DIFFERENT COLOUR GARMENTS FOR SEASONS. ITS NOT HOW YOU WORSHIP, OR WHAT DEAD, SAMEY PRAYERS YOU SAY EVERY WEEK. ITS WHATS ON YOUR HEART THAT COUNTS IN THE END, AND IF YOU ARE OPEN AND LISTENING TO GOD. thats my anti religious rant over. GOD HATED RELIGION AND MAN MADE WAYS OF WORSHIPING/FOLLOWING HIM. the bible shows this - JESUS SLATED THE PHARICEES (SPELLING I KNOW) HE HATED WHAT THEY STOOD FOR, HE DIDNT HATE THEM. CHRIST IS NOT A FASHION,A RELIGION,A DEAD OR IRRELEVANT THING. HE IS REAL AND LIVING AND HE WILL RETURN. YOUR WORKS WILL DO YOU NO GOOD. WE ARE SINNERS, AND WILL NEVER BE HOLY - NOT EVEN A POPE, NO MATTER WHAT HE WEARS OR SAYS OR HOW HIGH A PLATFORM HE STANDS ON. WE ARE ALL EQUAL TO GOD.

-- Chris (dontmailback@faker.com), January 01, 2004.

Chris,

Please don't use all caps it is very difficult to read.

When our Lord chastised the Pharisees, it was not because they worshiped using ritual, it was because they lost their love for God and they turned the things of God to their own selfish advantage. The Parisees were not into creating a referent and God centered way of worshiping. They were into political power and profit.

In Christ Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.

unbold

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.

I apologise for my excessive use of the capslock. The point i am making is that manmade works are wrong because no man on his own can be right or holy, he needs god. religion is dead and wrong for that matter. because it was made up by man, mans interpretation. the point we all miss in this world is - its not about arguing about whos church is right (whos church was the original church set up by jesus) it is purely that - GOD CREATED US, so we are to worship with him, universally, in unison, in total bliss, spreading the word of his great deeds, his dying for our sins, BECAUSE HE LOVES US. You dont even have to go to church to go to heaven. What if you cant get to a church because you are being oppressed by your government?! Then how are you to enter heaven by the terms stated by religions.

-- Chris (foo@bar.com), January 01, 2004.

Chris,
Thanks for the note. Catholics would agree that no one can go to God except through Jesus Christ. Christ established the Catholic Church (again see the extenive post on early Catholic dogma for Faith where that is historically shown). Christ must have had a reason, no?

You said, "- GOD CREATED US, so we are to worship with him, universally, in unison, in total bliss, spreading the word of his great deeds, his dying for our sins, BECAUSE HE LOVES US."

I agree totally

You asked, "What if you cant get to a church because you are being oppressed by your government?! Then how are you to enter heaven by the terms stated by religions."

Christ asked us to repeat the last supper in memory of Him, that can only be done in community, not alone. But you are right, some times man gets in the way and you can't get to church. In which case it is OK. But in that case it is not your willful disobediance to Christ's command. To say "I don't need to go to Church" flies in the face of what Christ asked us to do. To say there can't be a Church and they are no good, also flies in the face of the fact that Christ established the Church. Since Christ established the Church, She must be a good thing. I know the Catholic Church makes errors, but in the long run She is a good Church and does a lot of good in the world. She is the Church Christ built for us sinful men and He said She will persevere.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.

we are no longer sinners. christ died for our sins. we no longer need to grovel before him, he loves us, we are washed in his righteous blood.

-- Chris (1@1.com), January 02, 2004.

It is true that Christ died for our sins. It is true that we do not need to grovel before Him. It is true that we are washed in His righteous blood. It is NOT true that we are no longer sinners! We will be sinners until the day we die. Which is why we will need our Savior until the day we die. And which is also why no man's salvation is assured while he still lives upon this earth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 02, 2004.

we are no longer sinners. christ died for our sins. we no longer need to grovel before him, he loves us, we are washed in his righteous blood.

Why does this sound like something Michael Jackson would say? Seriously, I don't think you meant what it sounded like. We are all sinners. Even Christians. Christ dying on the cross did not make it so that we would not turn away from God (sin). We still have free will and can sin. Even Christians.

Christ bore our sins on the cross so that we could have eternal life. That was a really nice "gift" given to us (all humanity) and is the Good News of Jesus Christ.

All forgiveness for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s dying for us. That is true. But with us sinning so often, how are we then forgiven in the continuum of our lives? Jesus provided a way: after his death and resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). If He intended is death to be a one time forgiveness of sin, He would not have found the need to pass along to the Apostles the power to forgive sin.

When we sin we turn our backs to that gift. How? We do 3 things:

1) We do someting that is of grave error (like having sex outside of marriage).
2) We know it is wrong (someone has taught us God's Law)
3) We do it anyway.

If you do these 3 things, you sin. In other words, you reject God. When you do this, you must repent and turn away from your sin and back to God.

In Christ
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 02, 2004.

How did we get on this topic, what happened to the debate?

-- ask and you shall receive (ytaffe6789@aol.com), June 23, 2004.

a better question, why did you revive a thread which has been dead for months?

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 23, 2004.

Three words: Redemption, Justification, Salvation. Very similar but different concepts:

Jesus Christ REDEEMED the human race on the cross...but this doesn't automatically mean every human being since then is freed from original sin and personal sin! Otherwise, why did he command his disciples to baptize, preach the gospel, make disciples of the nations, give the holy spirit, FORGIVE SINS, etc?

So duh, obviously the individual JUSTIFICATION of each human soul happens IN TIME, once the soul receives the free gift of Baptism and faith.

But reading Acts and all the letters of Paul and Peter and John the reader is immediately aware that once-justified-always-justified isn't a Christian, biblical doctrine! (It certainly wasn't in the Old Testament!)

Thus there has to be a distinction between individuals Justification and their salvation.

SALVATION is the terminal state..."game over" phase of eternal life: when a redeemed human soul who has been justified DIES in this state of justice, he/she is SAVED.

-- joe (joestong@yahoo.com), June 23, 2004.