Are Infants Sinners?

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Are Infants Sinners that need to be baptized???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 22, 2003

Answers

Many in the religious world today say that infants are born sinners and must be baptized in order to be saved. But an infant is completely INNOCENT. Just as God says in Ezekiel 28:15, "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you." So we see that an infant is born perfect and without sin until he becomes of an accountable age and then begins to sin.

Also many say that we inherit sin from our ancestors all the way back to Adam. This CONTRADICTS God's word. In Ezekiel 18:20 we read, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son." Here God is telling us that children do NOT inherit sin from their parents, grandparents, or any of their forefathers, all the way back to Adam. It says "The son shall not bear the guilt of the Father." Each person is responsible for his OWN sins.

What is sin?

1 John 3:4 says, "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness."

We do NOT inherit sin; we commit sin; and we commit sin when we commit lawlessness.

An infant has NOT broken any law of God and thus has NOT committed any sin.

One error leads to another. Infants are NOT suitable candidates for baptism, since they CANNOT believe. Our Lord says in Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Here one of the PREREQUISITES of being saved is to BELIEVE, which is IMPOSSIBLE for an infant to do.

Parents who have their infants "christened" are being DECEIVED by the FALSE DOCTRINES of men.

Satan has many ways in FOOLING people into being lost.

The LIE that Satan tells here is that since one was baptized as an infant, he does not need to be baptized for the remission of his sins now that he has become accountable and responsible.

Satan KNOWS that infant baptism accomplishes NOTHING.

He also KNOWS, that when people who were baptized as an infant become accountable, that at that time they are LOST.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 22, 2003.


Kevin,

Besides fulfilling prophecy, why would Jesus need to be born of a Virgin?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 23, 2003.


Oh yea....Ok nevermind.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 23, 2003.


You are right, Kevin, Infants are not ready foe baptism, yet...

they are ready for consecration.

In Genesis Abraham's family was consecrated. In Exodus God gives this command. In Levitus the High priest is consecrated. In Samuel Saul, and david are consecrated.

In Luke, Jesus is also consecrated.

So is the Gentile and Samaritan communities mentioned in Acts.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 24, 2003.


SACRED TRUTH:

THE ROCK ~ THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH ~

THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS :

THE CONSEQUENCES OF ADAM'S SIN FOR HUMANITY

All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many [that is, all men] were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned. . . ." (Rom 5:12, 19) The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men." (Rom 5:18)

Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination toward evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul." ( Council of Trent: DS 1512) Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin. (Council of Trent: DS 1514)



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 24, 2003.



What is sin? Even Paul a good kick about in Galatians, James.

Many sins the Church classifies or classified as sins are not sins at all.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 24, 2003.


It is precisely because small children are not sinners that they are ready for Baptism. The Bible tells us Baptism is necessary to enter the kingdom.(John 3:5) It also admonishes adult sinners that if we wish to enter the kingdom, we must become like children.(Matt 18:3) Jesus commanded, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."(Matthew 19:14) In these passages, Jesus identifies little children as the only ones who are sufficiently pure and innocent to be ready for baptism and salvation, and tells us that if we also wish to be born of water and the spirit, we must first repent and regain our lost innocence - in other words, become like these who have no need of repentance, who are ready for baptism and salvation. Since Jesus said that Baptism is necessary to enter the kingdom, and also said that the small children who were with Him were already in possession of the kingdom, it follows logically that these children were at the very least eligible for Baptism, or more likely, were already baptized.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 30, 2003.

We must "become like little children" because they have NO sin...Baptism washes away our sin, that is HOW we "become like little children"!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 01, 2003.

David,

" oh yea...ok never mind"

Real good David. Keep up the good work.

Stuck on that "Virgin" thing? Would you be interested in sex if you gave birth to the God of the Universe?

May God give you the grace to become a Catholic.

-- T (Ty@Msft.com), December 02, 2003.


Of course infants are sinners.

Matthew 18 1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 02, 2003.



That verse above is to show what Jesus really meant about becoming like little childern. He is not talking about becoming little sinners.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 02, 2003.

John 3:5 I tell you solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

-- Leo (great castle@okla.com), December 02, 2003.

Ephesians 4 1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 02, 2003.

Leo,

Abraham, Isaac, Isaiah, Moses,... were not baptized.

They are in Heaven: Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

So baptism doesn't guarrantee entrance into Heaven.

It is our righteousness before God.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

-- ElpidioGonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 02, 2003.


How does one become humbled?

One can only become humbled if God enables him too (John 6)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 03, 2003.



Wow I know that most of you have gone from this thread, but I thought I'd tack on my comments anyway.

In the case of original sin, I actually look to Judaism. There is a reason that they don't believe in inherited sin.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


The Bible does not say that we must become like little children because they hqave no sin--Kevin.

It says that the kingdom of God belongs to these children because of their faith.

Children have faith in their maker. Instinctively. Jesus warns us not to ruin that in them. He says that if we want to inherit the kingdom of God, we must have a faith like theirs.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.


NO. Children do not have faith instinctively. They must be shown faith. We must have what children have in terms of faith, though. That means that we must acquire a faith that is unshakable. Children are innocent and do not question a belief once instilled in them. It is when grow in our cognitive abilities that we begin to gnaw away at that faith, until it become stronger or weaker. If we remain as children, that faith will not be jeopordized. Children are like a clean slate. When Nicodemas is given the suggestion of being born again and like a child, he is being told to make his slate clean again. Remember, we are talking about a faithful Jewish person who needs to convert Christianity. Nicodemus needs to "wash" away all of his pre-doctrine, or should I say "indoctrination"?



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


Sorry, my kids were having a little war while I was trying to finish my post.

Here is the corrected version:

NO. Children do not have faith instinctively. They must be shown faith. We must have what children have in terms of faith, though. That means that we must acquire a faith that is unshakable. Children are innocent and do not question a belief once instilled in them. It is when [we] grow in our cognitive abilities that we begin to gnaw away at that faith, until it become[s] stronger or weaker. If we remain as children, that faith will not be jeopordized. Children are like a clean slate. When Nicodemas is given the suggestion of being born again and like a child, he is being told to make his slate clean again. Remember, we are talking about a faithful Jewish person who needs to convert [to] Christianity. Nicodemus needs to "wash" away all of his pre-doctrine, or should I say "indoctrination"?



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


The point rod..,

Is that children have a faith in God that is pleasing to Him. They want to know their maker., they want to believe. They simply do believe.

Jesus says that idf we want to get into the kingdom, we have to what? Be baptised? No.., we must have faith like a child. We must believe...believe and faith., faith and believe. No matter how you look at it. It is by faith we are saved. Not of ourselves so that no one can boast.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.


You take too many things for granted. A child must be shown how to have faith. I have a 4 year old wondering if God exists; He doesn't show Himself, so He must not be real. I step in and must explain a simplified theology. Children must be shown.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


I am just telling you what the Bible says, rod.

What gets you into the kingdom of God is to have a faith like a child.

Jesus says that children believe in Him. He says that if we welcome these children in His name--we welcome Him. But, He says..., if we cause any of these children of His to stop believing in Him and sin-- we would be better off if we had a large millstone around our neck and drowned in the depths of the sea.

Jesus says that infecting our children with our own doubt and disbelief is the worst thing we can do.

Children belong to the kingdom of God--and we are not judged well for leading them away.

To me--this speaks volumes about the instinctive faith that babies are born with. They do not get taught faith--more often they learn to not trust or have any faith.

I tell you the truth. Unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But anyone who causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matt 18:2-6

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.


rod,

You can't be shown 'faith'. Faith is a gift from God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.


But Faith, you said on another thread whilst discussing innocent women and children: "I would also remind you that no one is innocent in God's eyes--but we are all born of a sinful nature and deserve to die. That is God's judgment"

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.

So?

Am I discussing the sin nature now?

No.

I am discussing faith.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.


So are you saying only those children with sin natures deserve to die . . . ? And children who exhibit faith deserve to live?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.

Gail?/

Are you confused?

Did I ever say that children with faith no longer have a sinful nature?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.


Faith, I am simply asking you to clarify yourself. On one thread, you said that children are sinners and deserve to die, and then on this thread, children are models of faith . . . ?

Can't you simply clarify what you mean?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.


David,

I'm not a Calvinist, so the doctrine of only God can show one faith is not in my conception.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


I am not a Calvinist either rod, I don't follow Calvin. I follow Christ, so that makes me a Christian.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.

I said that woman and children--all people are born of a sin nature. We inherited it from Adam and Eve.

That has nothing to do with whether or not a person has faith. I have faith, and I am still in a sin nature.

So your question is moot.

You thought I was saying that children with faith are no longer in the sin nature--and that is simply not even close to what I am saying.

All I am saying is that Jesus says that children have the kind of saving faith that we need to have too--if we want to see the kingdom of God.

I don't need to clarify your confusion.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.


Oh, Faith, that's what I'm talking about. My way or the highway. Well, a real "Christian" would take the time to repair any confusion. Keep knocking at the door for however long it takes...

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


Well., I have taken the time rod--again!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.

Just for clarification, I was making a point on another thread about innocent women and children being killed during a war.

David says something to the effect of "Innocent in whose eyes? God's or Man's?"

Then Faith pipes in with "I would also remind you that no one is innocent in God's eyes--but we are all born of a sinful nature and deserve to die."

So the children that Faith now refers to . . . those who have faith . . . are what we are all to become like, even though Faith says that children and women deserve to die because of their sin natures.

What cockamamie baloney!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.


I do recall reading that a person does not inherit his father's sins. Did I read that correctly?

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


I don't know Rod. I'm still trying to figure out which children deserve to die and which ones don't!

I think Faith got caught by her own inaptitude once again and she can't figure out how to get herself out of the box she put herself in.

You see Rod, David and Faith, in their zeal to demolish any point I try to make (after all I am Catholic) say the most outrageous things! Then unfortunately, they are stuck with it unless they recant, and you know they would NEVER DO THAT!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.


Well, Faith? You should be ok with infant baptism for those children who are sinful, yes? Even if your logic may not have any relevancy to the real purpose of infant baptism, that is.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


Yes, Gail. Ulterior motives do tend to get in the way of logic, sometimes.

Faith please be honest and admit your hostility to the Cahtolic Church. You may disagree with the Catholic Church, but you still have to play true.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


Also!

If children are born with that "instinctive faith"--as you call it--then by all means, they children must be baptized. (Not that I'm proving any relevancy to your logic in this matter.)

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


"I'm still trying to figure out which children deserve to die and which ones don't"

I believe Faith meant 'die' as in spiritual death, as in going to hell.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.


Afterall!

Protestants insist on having a cognitive belief in Christ before the baptism is performed. Faith's "instinctive faith" kind of qualifies such a situation. (Not that I'm qualifying any relevancy to your logic, Faith.)

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


YES rod!! The prophet Ezekiel spoke of this in chapter 18.

1 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying 2"What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 As I live" saith the Lord God, "ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

same chapter 19 "Yet say ye, 'why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father?' When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


Furthermore!

If Faith suggests that some babies/children are destined to a "spiritual death", this would demand infant baptism. How dare we allow these children denial from the family of God?!

(Well, the relevancy is beginning to emerge.)

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


Oh, I see, David, so you think Faith meant that children deserve to die "spiritually" because they are not innocent but sinners, and that now Faith says we should emulate children (spiritually dead children that is). . .?

Well, at least I can see now that you don't understand what she meant either. Tell me, do you know what YOU meant by "Innocent in whose eyes? God's or man's." Maybe I need Faith to come on board and tell me what YOU meant.

Gail

P.S. Good try, David, in trying to rescue your fellow fundie, but it doesn't wash, and besides the posts were concerning real physical death as a result of real physical war.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.


Ah! thanks Luke. You guys--Luke, David, Kevin, Faith--have this uncanny way of quoting Scriptures like your own names. Beautiful! I have to dig and dig; I've read, but I just can remember where I found it.

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


Rod, you need to get yourself a Strong's concordance and a Thompson Chain Reference . . . the best scripture finding tools you'll ever get!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.

Gail, I'm having a very difficult time keeping from chuckling and basically rolling on the floor. Here is the word of the hour:

Logic, endorsed by common sense.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


The myth that sin is inherited is pulled mostly from Romans 5. But almost like Revelation, one of the most misunderstood passages of the Bible.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.)

Get that? Death entered into the world through Adam. Death passed to everyone who have sinned. Paul isn't saying that we are born condemned, we only become condemned once we sin. Everyone will sin. Therefore death is passed to all men (and women).

18 Therefore, as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation ; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So what is it? Are we born with the free gift for justification? No. We must choose to follow Christ to receive this gift. Are we born in judgment? No. We must choose to sin to fall into condemnation. Jesus is referred to as the second Adam. IF we inherit Adam’s sin, why do we not inherit Christ’s justification?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


rod,

Once again, you don't know what logic is. I suggest you take a logic class to find out.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.


Actually, I do have a small collection, but do I actually get up and leave this discussion........no. I don't want to miss a thing. It is such a "fundamental" discussion. I was also not planning on doing much posting tonight, but Faith has this great ability to make conversation.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


Plus, Paul himself did not believe he was born dead. Still in Romans , now chapter 7

8> But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

When was this time that Paul was alive? Before he knew the law. When did he not know it? Probably when he was too young to know it. But once his eyes were opened, sin sprang forth.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


Yeah, and she's not even here! Oops, but she did leave her fellow fundie to do her silly-work for her! I'm afraid he can't get a handle on her either. (She should've left better instructions)

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.

Ephesians 2 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.

OFF

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.

I only told you what I took the comment by, I can't read her mind so you'll have to ask her. So be patient Gail, not everybody sits around the computer waiting for someone to reply to them.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.

I should have known once I figured this formatting out there would be problems...

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

Be careful posting those verses David. Those are the ones that send the threads off topic.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

I believe that my logical views on this thread speak well of the logic most of us seem to share, except for a few--duh.

Come on David. You've got to see what we are getting at or are you still in defense of Faith and the sudden juxtaposition of her logic? Let's call it "contradiction". But, that's ok if Relativism is your system. I believe most of the cards are showing; the hidden cards won't amount to much. Will they?

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.


Well, David, I do thank you for proving that it's not only inept Catholics that don't "get" her . . .it's inept fundies too!

Gail

P.S. You still never clarified yourself either!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.


I don't even know where the thread is Gail, all the threads sound very much alike.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.

It's in the 12 apostles thread.

Luke and Rod make good points above, David. You have to know deep down inside that Faith is consistently illogical. She has no consistent method of Bible interpretation whatsoever, and yet you always come to her aid. She doesn't need any help sticking her left foot in her mouth, and you surely help her swallow her right foot as well! All the while taking part in her folly.!!!

Gail

P.S. Yeah, what's up with that scripture quote from Ephesians? Great quote, but what's it doing here in the "Are infants sinners" thread?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 31, 2004.


Lol!!

I see you all had a great time last night--at my expense.

It is too comical Gail--to watch you create a problem by your misunderstanding, and then blame me.

First of all--I never said that some children deserve to die and some don't. That was your theory based on your misguided idea that being born in a sinful nature is somehow eliminated if we have faith??%#@?

Not sure about your logic there.

All people, men, woman and children are born of a sinful nature and deserve to die--according to Scripture. I pointed that out when you implied that woman and children are innocent. No one is innocent-- according to Scripture.

The curse for sin--is physical death....

But God's cure for this--is spiritual., for even when we are saved-- we still die physically.

The fact that Jesus says we must have faith like a child if we want to see the kingdom of heaven--has nothing to do with the fact that children are still in the sin-nature. You made that correlation, not me.

Why do you think that faith cancels out the sin nature? I never said anything of the sort.

But I am convinced that a child who die is automatically received into the kingdom because of their faith. In other words, they don't need to be baptised like the Catholic Church rushes off to do. They are unable to understand. I don't believe God would send a child to hell, even though he is in a sin nature. Jesus confirms this for me. They are saved by faith--and we are too, though we are held more accountable.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 01, 2004.


Yes, I too wipe my feet before entering a room.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.


Well now I'm confused. I thought faith was all we needed to enter into Heaven, according to Faith.

Paul said in 1 Cor.14 20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.(KJV)

Remember childish and childlike are not the same *laughing* at all! But anways, Paul regarded the little ones as innocent of sin. No children do not deserve to die. Faith I think you misunderstand what is implied what Paul is saying in the following verses:

Romans 3:10, 23 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:... For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

There are similar verses found in other parts of Romans and also Galatians. The misunderstanding comes with the general word of "all" or "everyone." This are actually used in a specific form. Read the context of these passages. Paul isn't suggesting that every living human has fallen short. What he is saying is that even though the circumcized had the law, both Jews and Gentiles have sinned. These are who "everyone" and "all" are referring to. Everyone, both jewish and gentile are unrighteous, no matter who had the Law of Moses. To apply this to every human being individually is taking it out of context.

PS I realize that everyone is either jew or gentile. Therefore,I am not suggesting that there are people who are neither, and that these have not sinned.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.


Understanding and faith are not the same thing.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 01, 2004.

I think that faith overwhelms in comparison to understanding. Understanding does lead to faith, though. Overwhelms in the sense that it comforts the heavy thinker's doubts due to lack of understanding.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.


Correct. But Paul isn't telling them in this passage to have faith like a child. He is saying to be like a child--innocent of evil. How can a child be innocent and deserve to die at the same time?

Is Paul telling us to have no cognitive knowledge of sin? Of course not. We already know what sin is. (Bill Clinton Jokes Here) Understanding is probably more like associating in this example. In regards to evil, be like children, who have no association with it.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.


James 1 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

What infant is guilty of such a thing? I will point out again that Paul was alive until the Law brought forth lust in him, then he died.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.


Luke,

Amen and Amen to your posts.

Faith,

You wrote, "The fact that Jesus says we must have faith like a child if we want to see the kingdom of heaven..."

What Jesus actually said was, "unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 18:3). There is no mention of having "faith" like a child, but we must become AS little children who have NO SIN.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 01, 2004.


My Bible says that we must humble ourselves like a child.., and He goes on to say that whoever welcomes children like this welcomes Him.- -and conversly He adds--but whoever causes one of these children who believes in Him to sin..they are better off if they would have drowned in the sea.

The Scripture says nothing of them being without sin., or sinless. We are all born with that sin nature--and there is not one man who is good., no not one.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 01, 2004.


Faith,

You wrote, "My Bible says that we must humble ourselves like a child.., and He goes on to say that whoever welcomes children like this welcomes Him.-"

Yes, we are to "humble ourselves like a child", there is NO MENTION that one must "have faith as a child". We are to welcome children because they, like Jesus have NO SIN. If you believe that children are sinners, please explain what SIN these little children are guilty of?

You continued with, "-and conversly He adds--but whoever causes one of these children who believes in Him to sin..they are better off if they would have drowned in the sea."

Yes, the point is "whoever CAUSES on of these children who believes in Him TO SIN". Little children have NO SIN, so whoever CAUSES one of them to sin, they would have been better off... Why would Jesus make this point if these children were already guilty of sin???

You ended with, "The Scripture says nothing of them being without sin., or sinless. We are all born with that sin nature--and there is not one man who is good., no not one."

Yes, we ALL sin, not when we are born, but Scripture CLEARLY points out how one sins in James 1:14-15.

Go back and re-read some of Luke's posts.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 02, 2004.


Maybe you have no experience with children Kevin.., but I, as a mother of five, can assure you that children begin sinning as soon as they can. Lying is second nature to them.

I mean., sometimes children act like little demons.

So you will never convince me that children are born free from the sin nature--which we inherit from Adam. They have it, and they will sin just as soon as they can. We are not condemned because of individual sin.., but because of the tresspass of one man.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 02, 2004.


It wasn't until the law that one understood what it meant to sin. It isn't until we teach our children what sin is that they understand what they are doing. Until then, children are innocent.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 02, 2004.


Even the people before the law--were condemed by sin., even if they didn't get it. The curse of death is since the time of Adam., and it is all because of this one man. That is what the Bible says.

What about the people of Noah's day? Were they not condemned for their sin?

No one is innocent. No one is good.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 02, 2004.


True, no one is "good", but that doesn't necessarily condemn one either. Phelps and Tom still have the offer of Salvation.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 02, 2004.


So, what is the meaning of "good" as used in Scriptures? Falling short of perfection?

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 02, 2004.


Faith,

I have 3 children, so please don't say I have no experience with children. Children have to be TAUGHT to lie. Lying is NOT second nature to them, if they are TAUGHT right from wrong, they will do what is RIGHT. God says in Proverbs 22:6, "Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it."

Yes, sometimes little children act like demons however God says in Proverbs 22:15, "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him."

Sadly, most people today let their children get away with just about anything. It is no wonder that God said in 2 Timothy 3:1-4, "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, DISOBEDIENT TO PARENTS, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God". Does this not describe how our children are being TRAINED???

We are NOT condemned "because of the tresspass of one man" as you state, how many times does this verse have to be quoted to you before you believe what God has PLAINLY revealed? "The SOUL WHO SINS SHALL DIE. The SON SHALL NOT BEAR THE GUILT OF THE FATHER, NOR THE FATHER BEAR THE GUILT OF THE SON. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." (Ezekiel 18:20).

You wrote, "Even the people before the law--were condemed by sin., even if they didn't get it. The curse of death is since the time of Adam., and it is all because of this one man. That is what the Bible says."

They were condemned to DIE a PHYSICAL death for the sin of Adam. As for the people of Noah's day, God says in Romans 5:13, "For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law." And the very next verse states, "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." God destroyed them because in Genesis 6:5, "the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." They were condemned NOT for the sin of Adam, but for their OWN SINS.

If "no one is innocent. No one is good" as you state, then please explain how "Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD"??? (Genesis 6:8).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 02, 2004.


Golly! Kevin.....we are agreeing on something, amazing.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 02, 2004.


Because Noah believed God...

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 02, 2004.

Faith,

Where is it written "Because Noah believed God..."???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 02, 2004.


Why would Noah have built that Ark if he didn't have total faith and believe in God?

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 02, 2004.

Faith,

According to your doctrine of "faith alone" Noah would NOT have needed to build an ark because his faith saved him. Why do you now state that Noah had to build that Ark??? Where is your "faith alone" doctrine now that Noah has to DO SOMETHING in order to show his faith??? You CANNOT hold to the "faith alone" view of salvation and then state that someone has to DO something in order to be saved, i.e. build an Ark.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 02, 2004.


When we are saved, Kevin--it is our joy to obey God.

Noah didn't know why he was building the ark for sure--and he certainly wasn't thinking that he didn't need to obey God because he is saved. Quite the opposite, I'd say. Because he trusted and believed God--he knew he needed to obey God.

Just as we know we need to follow Christ as Christians.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 02, 2004.


And back to the topic... Are Infants Sinners?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 02, 2004.

I've never known an infant to build an ark.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 02, 2004.

Faith, yes, I admit I did have a bit of fun at your expense. I think I know you well enough to know that you really don't think that there are ANY children who literally deserve to die. I'm not sure what you DID mean, however but perhaps we can talk about wars, just and unjust on another thread.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), April 02, 2004.


Yeah, I'm not with this "instinctive faith" in God. I turn again to Romans, chapter 10

14b and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In context, Paul is speaking of Israel, not infants. But, the point is similar. We are not born with an instinctive faith in God. So when do children have faith in God? Usually when we teach them the word, and with that teaching of faith, comes the knowledge that produces lust, which leads to death.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 02, 2004.


...!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 09, 2004.

Are infants sinners?

Of course infants are sinners!!! Could Christinsanity exist if infants were born innocent? What kind of religion would that be? I mean, think about it, Christianity without babies born as sinners, that would be total anarchy!!!

So you bet, as long as people are willing to believe this stuff (AKA, idiotic crap), babies will keep being born sinners, and there is nothing you can do about it, short of not continuing the believe of this crazy little religious fantasy.

Oh, and I forgot to say that all your sins will be your children's sins too, and his kids sins as well. In fact, your grandchildren probably will be held accountable for your sins!!! Isn't that lovely? You should probably read your "good book" (AKA Bible) to find out all the other horrible things you've been doing (AKA, 'sins'), like using the restroom and not burning bulls!!!

-- Anti-Fred Phelps (fundy_fred@jack_chick.com), April 12, 2004.


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