Here is a general overview of The Cathars and their Gnostic beliefs. Do you see any similarities to Christianity? Well, perhaps this may shed some light on the Bible and Church in regards to theology and doctrine. Or, best put, how not to be a Gnostic.

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003

Answers

There's that circle motif, again.

See the Cathar cross/circle.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

Doesn't it seem more obvious that we have the Catholic Church to thank for seperating the chaff from the seed, chaff being the falsehoods and the seed being the truth that is sowed?

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

"how not to be a Gnostic."

rod, I suggest you read the bible instead of getting more confused by reading gnostic writings.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

David. Have a look at the number of splintered doctrines and theologies in this world, which all stem from reading and interpreting the Holy Bible. You cannot say with any honesty that the world can read the Bible and suddenly have the same understanding and agreement in interpretation. The evidence is too obvious. You can't even get Kevin to agree with you, much less James, Elpidio, or me for that matter, so how do you expect the new believer to understand the Bible? The truth is not that easy to obtain.

Plus, you haven't even read the "other gospels", so you have your one and only self-interpretations to fall back on. You have nothing to balance or counter balance for searching the false teachings from the true teachings. Even the Bible teaches us to search for wisdom....oh, wait a minute, you don't have that book, sorry.

Would you please browse thru those other books, unless of course you fear losing your faith, then don't open any other books.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

rod,

There are many different faiths now ONLY because of the Catholic Church. The devil KNOWS that all of this doctrinal chaos and confusion that is so rampant today with so many churches to choose from will cause MANY to be lost.

God said in Matt 7:14, "Because NARROW IS THE GATE and DIFFICULT IS THE WAY WHICH LEADS TO LIFE, and THERE ARE FEW WHO FIND IT."

ONLY those who SEARCH for the TRUTH, and when they FIND IT, then OBEY the TRUTH (the gospel), will be saved.

Those who do NOT obey the gospel CANNOT be saved for Jesus said He will "RETURN IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD, AND ON THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess 1:7-9).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 14, 2003.

Kevin. I agree with your post, above. That is exactly what I am trying to do, follow the Word within that narrow path. You seem to believe the Bible, yet you reject those who compiled and deciphered the truth from the lies. You have put your trust in the Church by rejecting the "other gospels". Or have you?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

"seem to believe the Bible, yet you reject those who compiled and deciphered the truth from the lies"

rod, for the last time...IT WAS NOT THE ROMAN ORGANIZATION that made the bible!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

Whew! really David? "rod, for the last time..."?

Then, David, who did the compiling and deciphering?

And, if not the Church, will you then make some investigations into those other writings?

How do you know that your interpretations are not Gnostic? For example: Your symbolic belief in John 6:54 is very Gnostic.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

rod, You said,:How do you know that your interpretations are not Gnostic?
"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me" Luke 22:19 / KJV
Suggestion, look up the word remembrance.

The problem with you is authority. You want to be told what to believe, and I doubt you are really looking for the truth. What I believe you are doing is trying to lure us into the Roman dogmatic faith.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

Have you ever thought that maybe the Gnostic beliefs were more like Christians? and not the other way around?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

I have to agree with Rod and David, and Kevin on some points.

Rod is correct to look David O at other texts not in your Bible today. This helps you see better why the others were rejected.

Rod, the Catholic Church approved the Books we have today in the Catholic and Protestants Bibles. It did not make them since there was no Catholic Church in the First century. It was known as the Way, and only included mostly Jewish Christians known also a Nazarenes.

Kevin , to understand what saves you from the Bible, you must understand its origins and contradictions.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

rod,

Just because the Catholic Church compiled the Bible does NOT make them the authority in religion!!!

This FALSE Church has NEVER been NOR ever will be the church of Christ!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 14, 2003.

Children! $%@#% will you stop with the Catholic Church and just listen to what I'm trying to tell you? Dig into the writings that were rejected. You won't believe the Church, fine, wonderful, and whatever. My POINT is to learn what is in the Gospels and what is outside. You guys have so much fear of Catholicism that it is blinding you to the knowledge that exists elswhere.

David- You have got to be kidding me about me wanting somebody to tell me what to believe. That was just one of your propagandized Protestant tactics, which have been used on me many times before. You David are afraid of what you may learn because it will definitely stir your current belief and belief system. You David are being told what to believe by your denomination, church preacherman, and peer group. You need to stand up on your own two feet and begin to think for your own. All we are doing in this forum is telling you and Kevin to start thinking and understanding. Your theology and doctrine needs revamping cuz its broke.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

David wrote"

Have you ever thought that maybe the Gnostic beliefs were more like Christians? and not the other way around?

Well, at least we're throwing out some thoughts. The Gnostics were far advanced in their thinking and practice/ascetism. They were fanatical, spiritual, and faithful to their theology. They were also a threat to Christianity. This is why they had to be eradicated. The Christians managed to get rid of the Gnostics, but it is re-emerging in the "New Age" religions. I can see how the idea that Christianity had some connection to Gnosticism. I guess we could say that Gnosticism was trying to be like Christianity, but they had a distorted understanding to the truth, much like what we see today in the false doctrines or incomplete Protestant churches.

I'm not trying to convert anyone to Catholicism. I am not in such a position to have such persuation or power to convert anyone. I can push and pull people into specific direction and hope they can get a little more knowledge.

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

Kevin said, "There are many different faiths now ONLY because of the Catholic Church. The devil KNOWS that all of this doctrinal chaos and confusion that is so rampant today with so many churches to choose from will cause MANY to be lost."

That was a Professional Lie by Kevin. The Most Holy Catholic Church is ONE, Single, United, Holy, Apostolic for 2000 years and has neither doctrinal chaos nor confusion because the Most Holy Spirit Guides the Most Holy Catholic Church Yesterday, Today, and Forevermore. 1.2 Billion Catholics are United in ONE HOLY DOCTRINE. Kevin is ridiculing his very own newly formed baby protestant church which sprouted this year and is in conflict with the other thousands upon thousands of baby protestant denominations. The Devil is outside the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church who is protected by the Most Holy Spirit, Legions upon Legions of Holy Angels, the Intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint Joseph, and the Intercession of all the Holy Saints.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.

No, that was not a lie NOR was it a "professional lie" as James FALSELY asserts but the TRUTH.

If the Catholic Church did not cause all of this doctrinal and denominational chaos Then who did???

A little birdie???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 15, 2003.

rod,

Are you a gnostic? I get this idea from your thread title "What are we?"

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.

I learned that, in my college days, much of my theology was Gnostic. I believed that the Kingdom of God existed within our own existence and mind. I believed that the end of the world had nothing to do with the earth and its inhabitants as a whole, but it dealt with the individual's end of existence. I believed that the soul would entropy into a new existence and that was the meaning of eternal life. Jesus was a metaphor back in my "brilliant" years as a thinker.

Today, I have forced myself to re-think everything. I became a clean slate--rebirth--of all of my preconceptions of the Gospels. I have made the tenacious ambitions to study and understand the Word. My new revelations have erased many of my Gnostic beliefs, yet I must continue to purge those residules of Gnosticism. My belief in Transubstantiation is the most critical proof of my firm belief. I do believe in the Apostle's Creed (either version is not an issue for me).

My battle includes the idea that Gnosticism continues to surface when reading the Book of John. This is why I want to resist the symbolism that Protestants continue to infer in the Book of John. Yes, there is some symbolism, but it isn't in the most critical points provided the St. John's theology.

Am I a Gnostic? Jesus came to us in the flesh, water and blood, and as God. Jesus Christ if our Savior and through Him we are offered eternal life in Heaven. It isn't a matter of understanding how the puzzles fit inside our intellect; it is a matter of faith. But, I cannot subscribe to the non-Catholic doctrine. I may not have the open arms of the Church at this point in my life, but I may continue to think and believe in the Catholic way. I hope God may forgive me for my confusion. No, I'm not a Gnos

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 15, 2003.

Make that:

Jesus Christ IS our Savior and through Him we are offered eternal life in Heaven.

The last word is "Gnostic"

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 15, 2003.

It is precisely the rejection of the Church( and Walt Disney) that led to all of these denominations

-- Pitty Pat (disneyjobs@aol.com), January 24, 2005.

the corrupt evil church were the ones who compiled the bible and could change and add things there as much as they wanted...how are we now supposed to believe in the bible?...i still don't get this,protestants see the roman catholic church as a false corrupt institution that only used religion for their own profits(which is completely true)but they do believe in the bible that this church compiled...i really don't get this

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 25, 2005.

SDQA

Which parts of the Bible do you not believe?

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2005.

about the NT:

the divine origin and function of jesus christ i deny

any other part that is not proven historically i doubt about...

i'm not gonna speak about the OT because i don't know enough about it...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 25, 2005.

That is interesting, SDQA. Actually, there is much evidence to support the existence of Jesus. The belief in miracles will be left up to you to accept or reject. But, It does seem rather strange that the world does accept His existence, His teachings, and His Salvation. It may or may not be significant for some that His miracles were....well.....significant. I suppose that some would see His miracles as symbolic understandings and not actually literal events. Either way, the meaning is universal. Jesus fed the masses with bread. You could understand it in a gnostic way or a fundamental way. The message rounds off to the masses understanding that Salvation is real.

Moses parted the Red Sea. Hmmmm? What does that mean? It could mean that the sea represents society. The parting of society happened when Moses seperated the Chosen Jews from them evil Egyptians. Egypt's oppression was then crushed. Hello, Promised Land. Or, Moses really did part the sea. The message is the same. The Chosen People are free. The Egyptians lose.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2005.

Oops! sorry, I made a reference to the Old Testament.

Ok, Jesus turns the water to wine. Ok, so, you think that such a miracle never happened. But, what message can you gather from the "alleged" event?

Everybody needs water. And, everbody has to drink it to survive. But, there is a greater substance that offeres life eternally. Water is for the physical, temporary life. Jesus replaces the temporal with eternal sustenance. The wine is the new offering. It is greater and better than water. Also, the wine is a sign of what is to come. The wine is the color of blood. Jesus will provide the New Covenant with the sheading of His blood. Jesus is the Sacrifice. Jesus is our Salvation. Did He actually turn the water into wine? He did more than that.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2005.

hmmm...nice

but there is proof that a certain area of the red see can be passed if the wind blows from a certain direction

but what is actually the purpose of believing in jesus?

to get salvation?

so all the good people that didn't believe in him are going to go to hell?

i don't get this....

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 25, 2005.

hmmm...nice

Seems like it.

but there is proof that a certain area of the red see can be passed if the wind blows from a certain direction

Yes, if the wind kicks up strong enough, it will make a path. Napolean knew about it, too. The problem: It seperates for a long stretch of time--seasonally. It can't destroy a whole army because it is too narrow and too shallow. It would be nothing more than a dip in the pond for attacking soldiers.

but what is actually the purpose of believing in jesus?

We could make a very long list of reasons. There are two very good reasons: love and Salvation.

to get salvation?

Well, if there isn't Salvation, why have anything at all? It would be like a speck of dust existing for no reason at all. There must be eternal life.

so all the good people that didn't believe in him are going to go to hell?

Sounds like it. But, it isn't up to us to decide their fate. God does that.

i don't get this....

Well, observe what is real to you. Try to decide if there is evil and good. Then, decide to believe in the Source.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2005.

"so all the good people that didn't believe in him are going to go to hell?

Sounds like it. But, it isn't up to us to decide their fate. God does that."

what kind of god is that? what kind of loving father is that? who lets his good children rot in hell just because they didn't believe in him? i it their fault that they didn't believe;is it my fault if christianity seems ridiculous to me? how can god expect from us to believe just some letters on a paper;faith and beliefs don't make someone good or someone bad,it doesn't send someone to heaven and someone else to hell;how can god a really good person send to hell? just because this person didn't believe? and you are saying that this is fair? that your god is a god of justice?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 25, 2005.

Hmm.....interesting view of things, SDQA.

First of all, you have probably every justification to question such doctrines that you've mentioned. But, let's remember that you are witnessing the ridiculous theologies and doctrines made by men, not God's. God doesn't send His children to Hell. God provides the offering of Salvation through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. If you so chose to reject His offering, well that's the way things fall. Actually, it isn't that difficult to accept Him. At least, it isn't difficult once you start to learn more about the Truth.

what kind of god is that?

Everything Good.

what kind of loving father is that?

He sounds fair to me. What would you do with evil doers and souls who do not believe in their Creator?

who lets his good children rot in hell just because they didn't believe in him?

He is a God who offered His Son to die for them. The price has been paid. All one has to do is to accept Christ.

i it their fault that they didn't believe;is it my fault if christianity seems ridiculous to me?

It depends on whose faith you have been following. If it seems ridiculous, you may wish to follow a different faith system.

how can god expect from us to believe just some letters on a paper;faith and beliefs don't make someone good or someone bad,it doesn't send someone to heaven and someone else to hell;how can god a really good person send to hell?

You've been hanging around some bad doctrines. Since when has being good bought you a ticket to Heaven? There is more to it than that.

just because this person didn't believe?

God will judge those people. Our job is to provide some learning.

and you are saying that this is fair?

God made the Plan.

that your god is a god of justice?

Yes, but don't confuse the works of man with the works of God.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 25, 2005.

Some will say if you don't believe in Christ you are going to Hell. Period. Correct belief is the basis of salvation. This is a prevalent position.

Others believe ( and this is being very simplistic) that God obviously has the ability to make the right decisions and thus, we leave those decisions up to God. I personally have no interest in attempting judgement. I leave it up to God (and to those who find some comfort in pronouncing it on others.)

Have to admit --- I might like to have some influence on decisions about Hitler, Stalin and other mass murderers.

Still its all up to God,--- I got no say.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 25, 2005.

first of all rod, you didn't aswer my questions but you keep refering to your god

if i am good person,if i love my fellow man,if i try to help everyone i can and not intend to harm anyone;but if i just CAN'T believe in the bible and jesus etc... i am going to burn in hell?

why should i deserve this? what have i done to deserve this? because i was a sinner? plz say then because i was inperfect... do mistakes make someone bad? are we supposed to be completely free from sin=perfect to enter heaven? what you are saying is a load of ****,don't think that you will ever convert any normal rational person with that

is it my fault that i don't believe? is it my friend's haydar fault that he is muslim and can only believe that? this is not a matter of choise between good and bad,this is a matter of accepting something that happend either as truth or as lie,i can't believe that any normal person or any normal god can judge someone based on that

god could never ask something like this from us,god could never ask us to believe in a book compiled by a corrupt church and to believe in this corrupt church,you say that god gave us this book and this church and you have no real proof for it,i say that god has given us our brains,i think we should start using them for once...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 26, 2005.

* forgot to mention this

what about all the people before jesus and all the people that never heard of them?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 26, 2005.

I think that what happens is that when you truly desire Him--the one true God--He reveals Himself to you through His Word.

The Bible is the Living Word of God and has the power to convict our souls through what is true about Jesus Christ.

Once you are convicted and believe--God then gives you the ability to recognize the truth in Scripture by the power of the Holy Spirit.

It really is a heart thing. If you really are truly seeking Him, He will show you the truth.

But for those who reject God and really don't want Him, their intelligence will be their ruin.

God says He will confound the wisdom of the wise and that the cross is foolishness to those who do not believe. It seems it's all part of the overall plan so that only those who truly love God will be with Him forever.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 26, 2005.

first of all rod, you didn't aswer my questions but you keep refering to your god

Sorry, I thought I was trying to answer your question. I keep referring to God because He is the answer you seek.

if i am good person,if i love my fellow man,if i try to help everyone i can and not intend to harm anyone;but if i just CAN'T believe in the bible and jesus etc... i am going to burn in hell?

God will judge you, not me. Ask God for your answer.

why should i deserve this? what have i done to deserve this? because i was a sinner? plz say then because i was inperfect... do mistakes make someone bad?

You have heard the Gospel, but you have not accepted it, so you cannot say that you know nothing about Christ.

are we supposed to be completely free from sin=perfect to enter heaven?

Yes. But, when you accept Christ, your sin has been taken care of by Christ's Sacrifice on the cross.

what you are saying is a load of ****,don't think that you will ever convert any normal rational person with that is it my fault that i don't believe?

I can't convert anyone. It is entirely up to you to convert. All I can do is to point at the directions people may wish to take. If you wish to be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, or whatever, that is your choice.

is it my friend's haydar fault that he is muslim and can only believe that?

I don't know. Who made him a muslim? Who made me a Catholic? Who made attempts to convert me away from Catholicism. Each person has their own story of struggle.

this is not a matter of choise between good and bad,this is a matter of accepting something that happend either as truth or as lie,i can't believe that any normal person or any normal god can judge someone based on that

I can't either. I believe in God's Divine Mercy. Your common man is not as merciful.

god could never ask something like this from us,god could never ask us to believe in a book compiled by a corrupt church and to believe in this corrupt church,you say that god gave us this book and this church and you have no real proof for it,i say that god has given us our brains,i think we should start using them for once...

Yes, it does seem very illogical to me, too. I can see the hypocrisy of "church" in every denomination that I have attended. I can see the errors of men by their doctrines and theologies. I can find the fallacy in self-interpretations. I, too, can see corruption in "church" leaders. But, I can also see through the man-made mess and find truth. I don't invest in the man-made illusions. I do not wish to be vain, deceitful, or lost.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2005.