I would like to know, why the Catholic Church in recent times, has put the emphasis on dialogue with other religions, rather than conversions. Is there a good reason for this?

-- B. Popkin (Barry202@msn.com), November 12, 2003

Answers

Yes. Because breaking down artificial barriers, correcting inaccurate perceptions, and fostering mutual understanding is the first step in the conversion process.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 12, 2003.

The ways of men, then, I guess? That's what bothers me about it, Paul... it's not actually a teaching at all; it's a strategy, and a human strategy which exists squarely in the arena of the intellect.

Not that God cannot work through a person's ordinary actions.

Observing people I see something different... I see people come to understand certain things about the Catholic Faith that are driven from the inside out; they are insanely plucked out of one world and reordered to another.

I think it's the Holy Ghost that does this.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 12, 2003.

Do you have anything as far as a conclusion to these thoughts?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 12, 2003.

A Peek Into the Dark:

''Is this to unite everyone under their banner and pretend to be tolerant of all faiths to do so?'' asks little Faith.

You must never have read the gospel of Matthew. Jesus Christ commanded His apostles to go out to the nations and make everybody His disciples. Does this mean all would be under the banner of Catholicism? It certainly did. The words are unequivocable. (Matt 28, :19- :20.) Jesus said to baptise them, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Do you have something better to command, Faith? Like ''Read the Bible''- --? ? ? Is the Catholic Church just pretending tolerance for ''all faiths''--(Even you?)

No. We recognise no other faith except the faith of the holy apostles. The Catholic faith. But we truly do ''tolerate'' and understand the souls of people who are in false religions. As persons, souls; not their belief. Their souls. Not pretending; LOVING. Christ's Gospel is a gift of LOVE. We don't just pretend, we are commanded to truly love our neighbor. Love him and tell him God loves him. Bring him to God, once & for all; out of darkness.

You think we'll pretend to be tolerant of all faiths; and you mean we're intolerant. God is tolerant with you, isn't He? We tolerate your presence in our forum, don't we?

But all faiths aren't good. Or true, or revealed by God. We never ''pretend'' they are. Mother Theresa labored as a Catholic nun in the Black Hole of Calcutta; but never pretending to be a Hindu. There is no pretense in the true Church. God knows what she is; and if you can't see it, it's your own fault. You just don't want to believe the truth.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 12, 2003.

"But all faiths aren't good. Or true, or revealed by God."

Canticles 6, 8 and 9:

One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 12, 2003.

The Virgin Mary, since she is the archetype of the Church, is a single answer to two of Faith's contentions, one being the question of the true Church, and the other the role of the Mother of God.

It is Scriptural though, Faith...

Chapter 12 in the book of the Apocalypse makes similiar references as Canticles. There's just got to be a lot more where those came from.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 12, 2003.

A priest in China This is an interesting story about a priest Father Francis Chisholm (Gregory Peck), who went to China to establish a parish. He never wanted to get money easily, for him was much more important to get more people really devoted to catholicism than to get funds from any people, and for this he made all efforts serving even as a doctor in the community. Another important aspect shown although not deep, was the difference among the priests. Some are humble like the hero of the film but others are arrogant and look more for the wealth of the church instead of looking for the wealth of poor people. Catholicism have lost many areas because of the lack of sacrifice of many of its priests otherwise it would reign nearly everywhere in the world. Priests like Father Chisholm would have assisted in the salvation of many more souls.

When this film was made, the Catholic Church believed in converting people. Today they just emphasize getting along with each other.

-- Bubbles (9999@444.com), November 13, 2003.

Poor Faith,

We pointed out to her that where ever the name of Mary is maligned, mentioned with scorn and disliked, we all know the devil has a hand in it. We have to remind Mary-basher ''faith''. I'm not surprised ''faith'' bad-mouths Mary; she works for the devil.

To resist the Catholic devotion to Christ's holy mother is to resist Jesus. Mary was the very first Christian! He loves her most of all because SHE was the very first BELIEVER! That's one of the reasons Jesus permits the Blessed Virgin to help us by her holy intercession. Naturally, the devil knows this! The devil is being forced to grovel at the feet of Mary since the dawn of Creation. And he always will; because it gives great GLORY to her Divine Son. --Mary always gives glory to her holy Son.

She's our Blessed Mother. Our Church teaches it because it's revealed by God. Mary was the first BELIEVER in Jesus Christ; she knew first-hand He was the Son of God. She was the original Christian; the first person in all Creation to look into the eyes of Jesus Christ, in the minute of His birth! How could He NOT love her?

Satan the serpent was the very FIRST one who denied her Son. He denied God; and Jesus is God. The devil also has his children. Just like him they deny God's Son; and certainly they hate His holy mother. We see this even today, when ''faith'' goes ballistic at the very name of Mary the First Christian. Her Master is the serpent.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 13, 2003.

"Not me--I am wise to them--those little demon apparitions..."

The majority of them are. They abound, imho, to mask the real ones approved by the Church.

It seems that Satan will either mimic Christ and the Church, or he will mock it. Similiar to the way that he either tries to make you think he doesn't exist, or involves a person in some kind of contact directly with him or his minions.

But make no mistake, Catholics are well aware of the fact that most, and I mean most, of what is purported to be the Virgin Mary is not her.

Somehow, though, Faith, I doubt saying such things would convince you of anything.

But I haven't heard your explanation for why it is that the satanists mock the Catholic Church in their rituals, and why the Church is the direct object of their hatred.

Imho, this speaks volumes... for the Catholic Church, that is, as being the true Church. After all, if we're mocked by Satan at the apparent exclusion of other religion... what conclusion would you draw from that? Curious.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

"It perplexes me that you would recognize the deception in some, but not all apparitions. Especially when, in Fatima, we see clear Scripture contradiction."

Can you say what it contradicts exactly? If you have stated passages somewhere else already, maybe link the thread; sorry if I didn't see it.

"I know nothing about Satanists--quite frankly. I would imagine-- since they too, are mere men, that they may mistake the Catholic Church as being God's true Church."

Trust me, they know it... do they ever! I'm not sure if it's wise to go poking around to find out for sure, but if one did, one would find out.

"Satan attacks anyone who is Scripturally accurate and has understood the gospel message."

There's a distinction to be made between those who are Scripturally accurate and have understood the gospel message, and those who actually live it, or strive to live it.

"I think he uses the Catholic Church to his advantage. He has infiltrated that church in my opinion. He has deceived them in so many subtle ways, that now--instead of the gospel message as was once understood--it is distorted."

If this is true, in my mind it only lends further support to the claim that the Catholic Church is the One true Church. Why bother if the Church is not his arch-enemy? Why an enemy, then, if the Church is not authentic? I don't mean to be too sarcastic, but the thought of the demon infiltrating First Baptist Church seems a bit anti-climatic to me.

Furthermore, the fact that Popes such as Leo XIII pretty much stated outright that Satan had his sights set on the infiltration of the Church pretty much rules out the possibility that Satan's attempts would come as a surprise to observant Catholics. It's not like everyone is deceived; those Popes weren't.

"The Roman Catholic Church is a tool for Satan now., as are many religions. No one is immune unless they are covered in the blood of Jesus and understand their salvation."

Could you lay out your concept of what it means to be "covered in the blood of Jesus"?

Secondly, to "understand their salvation"... can you sort of explain exactly what it is that saves someone? What I mean is, if this guy here ends up saved, and that one there didn't, could you layout what the principle difference was for each person? Why was the one saved? What was lacking in the other?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

I believe that's all completely true.

But the thief had a slight advantage that you don't have, in the sense that Jesus was right there next to him.

How would this same scenario play out with you personally in 2003, let's say, at the time when you realize your sin... how is it that you are able to approach Jesus?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

Greetings: How would one approach Jesus as the thief on the cross answer is in the same way the thief did on the cross Romans 10:9-10. The thief in his heart believed Jesus is Lord, therefore he was saved, the other mocked Jesus, scorned him as being the way. As religion does today mocks Jesus adding to the gospel rudiments of the world, such as pray in this name, go on this pilgrimage, not really believing Jesus is Lord. Men by nature are credit oriented and trained, Gods kingdom is not reached by works, merit, but by faith as the man on the cross believed Jesus was being crucified for his sins. He didnt say Lord let me say a hail mary, Lord let me go to a priest, Lord say a mass for me, Lord what indulgences should I do, why? Cuz none of those sanctify the soul Romans 10:9-10 does, Jesus is Lord!!!

-- Call on Jesus by faith saves (truthisfreedom316@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

In the Lord's prayer, you are familiar with this line:

"Give us this day are daily bread"

Matthew, Chapter 6, verse 11:

"Give us this day our supersubstantial bread"

"He didnt say... Lord say a mass for me"

The question of how one can be close to Christ deserves a closer look.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

Faith; I ask this in good faith.

When a Protestant who has acceptd the Lord in good faith, and dies, he goes right to Heaven. Correct?

No need then to pray for him. If you also have ben born again, no more need to pray for you. Correct?

So you can pray, that others would accept Christ. You can pray for physical well being etc.

Why then, is the gate so narrow, and few there are who find it? It looks so easy.

If a good Protestant falls into fornication, or adultery, and dies immediately, no chance to repent, but still goes to Heaven. It sounds great, but still sonething seems to be lacking. Tell me what you think about this.

-- Glenn (oaktree@littleacorn.net), November 14, 2003.

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God." See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead

-- Glenn (oaktree@littleacorn.net), November 14, 2003.

Dear Faith:
You tell us, ''The answer is that we cannot save ourselves. It is a gift from God to those who will receive Him.'' REALLY? Who's the last Catholic you met who told you he could save himself? With or without works? Not ME! ''The gospel message is this:
Confess Jesus is Lord. Repent and acknowledge that we are sinners and unworthy.''

So far you're in line with Catholic doctrine, Faith. Congratulations! --''And then receive Jesus Christ as your Savior. He died in your place, so that you might live. Believe and receive.'' NOW! Does it ever say that in the Bible? In just that order?

No-- what the Bible says is just what Christ's Church taught us: ''Repent and be baptised,'' as Peter states, (Acts 2, :38) --and baptism is formal entry for every soul into the Catholic Church; in whom Peter was the first Vicar of Christ.

Here is our first step into the Body of Christ as believers: become members of the True Church, with Peter and the apostles. After this, be faithful in all doctrine and practice; even unto martyrdom if needed. And carry your cross; because Jesus specified clearly;

the Christian must pick up his cross and follow Him. That is a must. Not just saying some magic words. We do not ''save ourselves'' by carrying the cross. We are identified with Our Saviour. He saves each one of us; as we deserve. Or-- the reverse. As we deserve, He will judge us.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 14, 2003.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 14, 2003.

The Catholic Church has faithfully taught for 2,000 years that "salvation is a free gift of God which cannot be earned or merited"! So what possible difference does it make what you "truly think"? What you "truly think" is obviously based on ... nothing.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

Faith,
The Church follows all the teachings of the apostles. Not the teachings of anyone but.

You may dismiss those ''endless efforts through all those sacraments and rituals and penances,'' as you wish. But all of them are in obedience to the Master, Our Lord.

He instituted the sacraments and rituals, not the Church. The Church does only the Will of Jesus as explained to her by the apostles and their disciples right from the start. Jesus commanded all His disciples to be baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Matt 28 :19; and wants them to ''observe all that I have commanded you.'' (v.:20) He commanded our Confirmation in the Holy Spirit, and in a unique ritual, He commanded that His own Body and Blood was to be eaten and drunk, as in the Last Supper. He ordained His apostles and commanded they were to ordain new presbyters, by the laying on of hands. The ''laying on of hands'' is RITUAL. Matrimony is RITUAL, Baptism is RITUAL; failing to perform these rituals is disobedience of the Church's divine Founder. Christ performed rituals Himself. He did NOT ''hate religion'' as you so wrongly stated. He loved it; He is a PRIEST according to Melchisedech; our High Priest. You constantly make ignorant statements like that without thinking. You have no religious training, so you dismiss everything out of hand. The sign of an unbeliever.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 14, 2003.

Confirmation ... (fortold) ... Mark 1:8

Confirmation ... Acts 2:2-4

Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) ... John 20:22-23

Sacrament of the Sick ... James 5:14-15

Sacramental Marriage ... Matt 19:6; Mark 10;11-12

Priestly Ordination ... Luke 22;19; John 20:22-23; 1 Tim 4:14

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

Thank you, Paul. --Just so faith understands. No Catholic sacrament derives from the will of man. All seven are Christ's direct gifts of grace to and for His Church /

They would not impart any grace whatever if they had been instituted by men. That alone would be an affront to Our Lord, and His Church loves Him, she doesn't disobey Him.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 15, 2003.

Faith is out to sea, and can never come back to land.

Christ is known to have defended the state of Holy Matrimony. The New Testament being our Church's logo/u>, marriage becomes sacred and sacramental by His holy presence with the two spouses. It also is made insoluble by His own command, which it was not --in Mosaic law. The sacrament of Matrimony imparts Jesus Christ's grace, merited by Him on the cross; and elevates what was not sacrament, but a contract, in the Old Testament.

The sacrament of Confirmation is has its precedent in the Holy Bible as that descent of the Holy Spirit on His faithful which took place on Pentecost. The sacrament gives grace, again, to all who will defend the faith. It makes them soldiers of christ, as it made the holy apostles immediately following the Spirit's descent. (Acts 2, :1-4). It is the Christian sacrament Christ promised to His Church in John 16, the 1st through 16th verses. Bet ya didn't realise that, ''faithie,'' Our Lord performs everything holy and fitting for His Church. Confirmation is His gift of the Holy Spirit. Too bad you have no experience of your own.

You maintain, wrongly: ''. . . John 20:22- 23...confession? In these verses we see that Jesus was giving his disciples the Spirit- powered and Spirit-guided mission to preach the good news about Jesus so that sins might be forgiven,''--

Just poppycock / It was '' Spirit- powered and Spirit- guided mission'' to bring Christians to repentence and forgiveness without the slightest doubt. No doubt ? --None at all; when Christ speaks, His people believe!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 15, 2003.

Sorry, }:D-e-v-i-l ish faith;
You have been logging on the false prophets church too long.

We have it on the words of the apostles, not some self-ordained minister working free lance. Go to the Church, not to men.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 15, 2003.

No, you don't. You attempt to follow the Apostles through your private interpretations of the Word of God. Sorry, it doesn't work. The evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 15, 2003.

Catholics follow the Church; and the Church follows the apostles; who speak for Jesus Christ not only in scripture but in the same Church. The Church has been sent an Advocate who is the Holy Spirit, and He protects her from teaching error, as Christ promised. (John Chapter 16).

You & a book cannot take the place of Christ's Church. Especially since you have accepted the teachings of false prophets. You are anathema, according to Saint Paul. ''For they are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light,'' (2 Cor 11 :13/14) .

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 15, 2003.

A Catholic wrote it. Our own Saint Paul the apostle. He said it well; you were seduced.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 15, 2003.

Paul was an ethnic Jew and Luke was an ethnic Greek, but once they accepted Christ and followed Him they were ALSO Christians, and as members of the Church Christ founded, they were indeed Catholic.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 16, 2003.

She can't understand the difference. She thinks Catholic means Italian. Consider the source.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 16, 2003.

Matthew, Chapter 6, verse 11: "Give us this day our supersubstantial bread."

Satanists seek to desecrate the Blessed Sacrament. There are certain realities, Faith. The thief on the Cross was proximate to Jesus. The man in the course of the Sacrament of Confession is proximate in some similiar way.

The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. The Word was God.

Faith says:

"But then when I step back and really look at what the Catholic is doing, I truly do think that they are trying to earn their way to heaven with endless efforts through all those sacraments and rituals and penances."

The other day, there was a big heavy box in the living room, and I was going to carry it back to the bedroom. I asked my 2-year old if she wanted to help, and she was all excited about it. I lifted the box, and she just held on all the way back. Of course, I carried the whole weight of it, but she was overjoyed that she could participate in the task, and I was happy she could participate as well. That seems analogous to our penances vs. the Cross of Christ. Who would forsake either, then?

Proximity and participation are essential, imho. Things are real; we don't pray to the thin air.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 16, 2003.

I guess I recognize most of what you're saying, and I think it's in the same vein, but there seems to be something of difference in how I perceive the things you say. I think it has something to do with the being saved part; when I look at what you wrote above, it all sounds pretty much the same except I see salvation as a promise of things to come instead of a present reality.

By way of analogy, if you use marriage as the analogy as Scripture does, what you describe should be seen as more of an engagement or betrothal instead of the actual union. Do you see what I mean? Preparation and responsibility seem to be what consists of what happens between where the soul is today and death and union with Christ.

In other words, now that a soul has what you describe above today, and it's all true and good, what does the soul need to go through before seeing God face to face? How exactly is it that we participate?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 16, 2003.

"But I don't believe that there is anything that I can do that would make me righteous before God. I am righteous in Christ because of what He did"

a: Of course what HE did is the SOURCE of our righteousness. But there has to be more to it than that, or else every person would be automatically righteous as a result of what He did - unless of course what He did was insufficient in some way. In fact, what He did was not lacking in any way. It was perfect. It was sufficient to save every human being who ever existed or ever will exist. Therefore it is immediately apparent that what WE do - or fail to do - is the key to making His fully sufficient act of redemption active in our own individual lives. If we DO nothing, we do not accept what He offers, for faith and works are the specific ways we MUST respond to that offer in order to receive it. That's why His Holy Word tells us that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". (James 2:24) Could that be stated more clearly? This why those who fail to do good works "will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 16, 2003.

But to receive Christ, and what it means...

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 16, 2003.

Faith thinks: we must *do* nothing.

Christ is received as He commanded, not as protestant theology commands. The Church (meaning His holy apostles,) was to go out to the world and make disciples (converts), baptise these; and teach all to observe everything He had commanded them (Matt 28 :19).

The Church was sent to teach. Not the Bible; and not a protestant church. It's clear the teaching had everything to do with the VISIBLE observance of Christ's every command. Not simply ''reception'' in some private, insufficient manner. Faith just doesn't know the importance of the scriptures. Her mistaken applications of scattered passages to supplant Christ's very words is arrogance and LACK of belief.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 16, 2003.

"I think that the only thing we must *do* is receive Christ in order for it to be credited to our debt to God, as paid in full"

A: In this case what you "think" just happens to be correct on the face of it; however the Bible tells us, repeatedly, that faith and good works are the two REQUIRED means of receiving Him. If we are lacking in either one, we have not received Him.

"The Bible tells us that we can know that we are saved"

A: No, it does not. It is only your private interpretation of the Bible that says that. The Bible itself says that no-one will be saved unless they endure to the end. And since no-one can be absolutely sure that they will endure to the end (finish the race), therefore no-one can be absolutely sure that they will be saved (be awarded the prize).

"What sort of peace could someone have if they never really knew that they are saved?"

A: Imperfect peace. Perfect peace comes only in heaven - because only in heaven do we truly KNOW we are saved. In the meantime we can still experience a special though imperfect peace, a peace the world cannot give, even as we continue to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling".

"I think the good works or the fruit of the Spirit are the results of our salvation....and I agree that the good works are necessary., but for different reasons."

A: In this case, the subjective gospel of "I think" comes up short of the truth. Works cannot be the "fruit of salvation" for two obvious reasons: (1) The Bible says we do not yet have our salvation - yet it also says we are expected to do good works; and (2) The Bible says that failure to do good works will result in "eternal punishment"; which clearly makes such works a prerequisite for salvation, not a result of it.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 16, 2003.

"Is God's grace sufficient to bring about justification, or must human merit be added to the grace of God?"

A: Of course it is! And yet, not all are justified. Why? Because many do not DO what is necessary to be justified by the all-sufficient grace of God! No matter how you cut it, our active response to God is an essential and inescapable part of our justification/salvation. Salvation is indeed by grace alone, as the Catholic Church has taught for 2,000 years - because grace alone makes possible both the faith and the works which are required means of accepting salvation.

"Nevertheless knowing that man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."

A: This passage has absolutely nothing to do with the works of Christian charity which Matthew says we must either do, or go to hell for not doing them. This passage is about the legalistic requirements of the Judaic Law which the Pharisees piled upon the people, and insisted were the means to salvation, even though they hypocritically failed to carry such burdens themselves. That is the meaning of the phrase "Works of the Law" wherever it appears in Scripture. In stark contrast, Scripture repeatedly states that Christian works of charity, while they are NOT the cause of salvation, are nevertheless necessary means of accepting salvation, without which no-one is saved.

"Note well that Paul contrasts the concepts of working and believing. This is a common concept throughout the New Testament. There is a strong antithesis between belief and work when it comes to being made right with God."

A: Utter nonsense. The entire New Testament emphasizes the absolute interdependency and necessity of works and faith. Faith produces works. Works build faith. One cannot exist without the other. The Protestant way is to pick and choose passages which appear to support their preconceived notions. The Catholic way is to accept no teaching unless it is in full agreement with EVERY passage of scripture. Which of course is no problem since every passage of the New Testament came from Catholic teaching. Some passages heavily emphasize faith. Others heavily emphasize works. Collectively, the New Testament makes it undeniably clear that both are of equal importance, both absolutely essential.

"You must either work at doing deeds of the Law (and that perfectly!), or you must believe in Christ; you simply can't meld the two together."

A: Right! But the Works of the Law are not the issue here.

"For it is by grace that you have been saved......" Ephesians 2:8

A: Right again! As explained above.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 16, 2003.

Your own blessed ancestors were saved by grace as believing Catholics, ''Faith''. They trusted in God, He poured His grace out on them and after the end of their pilgrimages here on earth, they departed to be with Him. And with Our Blessed Mother, all the angels and saints, Saint Paul among them. --He was preaching to Catholics in all his holy epistles.

Grace saves the sinner. We have to maintain ourselves in it; as the five wise virgins of the parable did. They are said to have saved their oil (grace) maintaining it for the Bridegroom's arrival. The five foolish virgins (like yourself) didn't have oil (grace) so they went away to buy it. But He returned soon afterward and locked the doors behind Him (salvation). How is grace LOST, in this lifetime? By unrepentant sin. You lose your salvation if you lose that grace. As you have.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 16, 2003.

Shalom Faith,

Although Eugene seems to have simplified this parable a bit, the symbols he noted we also agree with, except perhaps the “door” which from our understanding of prophecy is described as follows:

“And I took My staff GRACE, and I broke it, ANNULLING THE COVENANT which I had made with ALL peoples… Then I said to them ‘If it seems right to you, give Me My wages; but if not, keep them.’ And they weighed out as My wages thirty shekels of silver. Then the L-rd said to Me, ‘Cast it to the Potter’- the lordly price at which I was paid.” Zech.11.10, 12-13

A lordly price because these foolish bridesmaids must now pay Him because they judged those two staffs and those three shepherds wrongly as they helped bring their death through pride, Zech.11.7 (He gave the staffs and called those shepherds). They pay the price that Judas paid because they walk in his shoes, condemning His servants while forgetting that even salvation by faith in its simplest form still warns, “Do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if G-d did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you” Rom.11.20-21.

We are not to judge the faith of another and this too is part of the salvation message that often gets lost in the cry of “faith alone”. This is the essence of the two staffs of kindness and pledges found in the depths of Vatican II and even in some Protestant and Jewish documents which the foolish bridesmaid will reject and/or demand absolute proof for before they agree to them (which the wise bridesmaids cannot give they trimmed their walk/light to fit the unfolding events) that will bring the death of those three shepherds (shopkeepers) who uphold them and can answer those points, but this will take time. Yet the closed door does not mean damnation but simply a loss of “salvation by faith” (breaking the staff of kindness) and we believe Revelations holds the price they must pay:

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write this: blessed are the dead WHO DIE IN THE L-RD HENCEFORTH.’ ‘Blessed indeed’, says the Spirit, ‘that they may REST FROM THEIR LABORS, for their DEEDS FOLLOW THEM!’” Rev.14.13

Whether you believe in Gehenna (Purgatory) or not is irrelevant now; we tell you of this not to seek your conversion to Catholicism but rather because we hope and pray you will remember this if indeed you come unto this end or even death without forgiving others for not meeting your expectations of salvation. If indeed you find yourself here hopefully you will know even then- there is still hope! For one day that promise of mercy will come to earth and that “last penny” dealt out in Gehenna will come as well. In those days as dying “in the L-rd” at the hands of anti-Christ while the wrath unfolds is the price we see. This is that spot “behind” that “door” where those foolish believers wail and gnash their teeth because they hear Him say “I know you not” but they know G-d is merciful even then only there is one way to secure salvation, but it is the same cross He bore!”

Unfortunately Scripture also speaks of those “bridemaids” who refuse to understand this hope or reject this as worthless when they see that staff of mercy broken (hint: it has to do with a later resurrection that comes after three and one half days before all Israel and a great earthquake that splits the city into thirds as Armageddon unfolds):

“Wail, for the day of the L-rd is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every man’s heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in travail. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame.”

And it is these who will turn upon those who must now “die in the L- rd” because their denial of His cross brings rage against those who finally find the courage to take this up something these will not chose to do!

“Note then the kindness and severity of G-d: severity toward those who have fallen, but G-d’s kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU CONTRINUE IN HIS KINDNESS; otherwise YOU TOO will be CUT OFF.” Rom.11.22

This message is not only for Faith “alone”, but to all who judged recklessly the hearts of those we cannot know (only the L-rd can know). Thus salvation can be secured in one sense (Jn.6.54), in another sense this is indeed a race which we must "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" because we were bought for price and we must enter that heavenly abode clean and undefiled either in this life or after in the next (or in the wrath).

“Therefore you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” Matt.24.44

Shalom, C & C

-- C. Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), December 05, 2003.

Shalom Faith,

Although Eugene seems to have simplified this parable a bit, the symbols he noted we also agree with, except perhaps the “door” which from our understanding of prophecy is described as follows:

“And I took My staff GRACE, and I broke it, ANNULLING THE COVENANT which I had made with ALL peoples… Then I said to them ‘If it seems right to you, give Me My wages; but if not, keep them.’ And they weighed out as My wages thirty shekels of silver. Then the L-rd said to Me, ‘Cast it to the Potter’- the lordly price at which I was paid.” Zech.11.10, 12-13

A lordly price because these foolish bridesmaids must now pay Him because they judged those two staffs and those three shepherds wrongly as they helped bring their death through pride, Zech.11.7 (He gave the staffs and called those shepherds). They pay the price that Judas paid because they walk in his shoes, condemning His servants while forgetting that even salvation by faith in its simplest form still warns, “Do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if G-d did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you” Rom.11.20-21.

We are not to judge the faith of another and this too is part of the salvation message that often gets lost in the cry of “faith alone”. This is the essence of the two staffs of kindness and pledges found in the depths of Vatican II and even in some Protestant and Jewish documents which the foolish bridesmaid will reject and/or demand absolute proof for before they agree to them (which the wise bridesmaids cannot give they trimmed their walk/light to fit the unfolding events) that will bring the death of those three shepherds (shopkeepers) who uphold them and can answer those points, but this will take time. Yet the closed door does not mean damnation but simply a loss of “salvation by faith” (breaking the staff of kindness) and we believe Revelations holds the price they must pay:

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write this: blessed are the dead WHO DIE IN THE L-RD HENCEFORTH.’ ‘Blessed indeed’, says the Spirit, ‘that they may REST FROM THEIR LABORS, for their DEEDS FOLLOW THEM!’” Rev.14.13

Whether you believe in Gehenna (Purgatory) or not is irrelevant now; we tell you of this not to seek your conversion to Catholicism but rather because we hope and pray you will remember this if indeed you come unto this end or even death without forgiving others for not meeting your expectations of salvation. If indeed you find yourself here hopefully you will know even then- there is still hope! For one day that promise of mercy will come to earth and that “last penny” dealt out in Gehenna will come as well. In those days as dying “in the L-rd” at the hands of anti-Christ while the wrath unfolds is the price we see. This is that spot “behind” that “door” where those foolish believers wail and gnash their teeth because they hear Him say “I know you not” but they know G-d is merciful even then only there is one way to secure salvation, but it is the same cross He bore!”

Unfortunately Scripture also speaks of those “bridemaids” who refuse to understand this hope or reject this as worthless when they see that staff of mercy broken (hint: it has to do with a later resurrection that comes after three and one half days before all Israel and a great earthquake that splits the city into thirds as Armageddon unfolds):

“Wail, for the day of the L-rd is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every man’s heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in travail. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame.”

And it is these who will turn upon those who must now “die in the L- rd” because their denial of His cross brings rage against those who finally find the courage to take this up something these will not chose to do!

“Note then the kindness and severity of G-d: severity toward those who have fallen, but G-d’s kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU CONTRINUE IN HIS KINDNESS; otherwise YOU TOO will be CUT OFF.” Rom.11.22

This message is not only for Faith “alone”, but to all who judged recklessly the hearts of those we cannot know (only the L-rd can know). Thus salvation can be secured in one sense (Jn.6.54), in another sense this is indeed a race which we must "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" because we were bought for price and we must enter that heavenly abode clean and undefiled either in this life or after in the next (or in the wrath).

“Therefore you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” Matt.24.44

Shalom, C & C

-- C. Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), December 05, 2003.