Sorry to be negative, but ....greenspun.com : LUSENET : MV Agusta F4 : One Thread
Without a doubt the worst part of owning a MV Agusta motorcycle in the US is dealing with MV USA. At this point I have accepted the fact that my issues with Senna #212 are not going to be resolved in any reasonable or timely manner, so I have nothing to gain by not going into full details of what I have been through with this motorcycle. Apparently MV USAís idea of customer service is taking its customers money and not accepting the responsibilities that a company that is really concerned with the well being of their customers (let alone the quality of their product and service) would be. Especially when the issues are not user caused and are the product of manufacturing, design, assembly, etcÖ on their part. To be told by MV USA that I should feel lucky that I was only without my Senna for 3months (this time around) was frightening. Not because, it sounded like a threat (which I donít think it was) but because in their eyes they seem to truly believe that they are doing a good job. There is a saying that before you can fix a problem you have to admit that you have problem. This is something MV USA, oh fuck it, Matt at MV USA doesnít seem capable of or willing to do. All he does is talk and throw out numbers and press hype about the product, but never seems to listen to the people who are purchasing the products he is pushing. I donít care if there have been 90,000 trouble free MVs, Senna #212 seems to be measured on how many days I can get in before it has to go back to the shop. And as a paying customer that is the only thing that matters to me! He wonders why there are ďcommunicationĒ issues. Matt in case you didnít know this communication requires that you not only listen at some point but also comprehend. I have also found Matt to be a very condescending individual. After talking to other MV owners as well as a few people who work at dealerships that sell and service MV motorcycles, I know that I am not the only one to feel this way.
To Matt, I seem to be unreasonable that I am now extremely pissed off because of issues I continue to have with Senna #212. He seems to think I have no reason to be and that I should just follow the normal process of getting service. I would like to take a moment to point out something that seems to be lost on Matt. He is aware that I have 2 MVs the other being a 2001 Strada. I purchased the Strada new back in April 01 and to date (some almost 19K miles later) I have only contacted Matt directly once and that was regarding the replacement of a second burnt lower fairing, that I had been waiting over 4 months for and then was told by my dealer that it wouldnít be covered under warranty. This turned out to be ďmis-communicationĒ between the dealership and MV USA. Anyway if it were the Strada that was at this point having all the problems that Senna #212 is having, I wouldnít be calling Matt or MV at all. As Iíve put a lot of wear and tear on that bike especially as it has seen only track duty in the last year (some 19 trackdays) and expect it to be a bit worn. Before Iím asked the Strada is track only and as such (smart move or not) I donít have the parts to make it street legal again.
If any one has read my last couple of track reports you would have read that the bike hasnít been running well at all lately. The result of this has been some pretty hairy moments at the track. But you havenít read me blaming MV or anyone other than myself for that. As such I donít expect anyone other than myself to be responsible for the maintenance of the Strada, because those problems were caused by me. Which is why after our little MV thing at Pahrump I knew my track season was over for a while, until I got the funds to pay to have the bike worked on or learned to do it myself. Again Matt, MV USA, nor any MV dealership/service center has seen or heard me complain about the bike or demanding that it be fixed at their cost or within specific time frames. The one dealership I did speak to about getting the work done, was questioned about the cost I would expect to pay to have it done. Never did the subject of any of the work being done under warranty of any form come up. Why? Because I know that this is routine maintenance and that is my responsibility. At no point did I ask anyone to supply me a loaner bike for the track, while the Strada was waiting repairs, because again that is my responsibility. I accept that and will openly state that I am responsible for that.
This brings us to ďLife with Senna #212Ē and a ďtime lineĒ (yeah Matt I have one also, in case you didnít realize) for the issues of this bike. I purchased Senna #212 in late June 02. No big story here except that I had to bring it back after a week to have the rear brake bled. Nothing major as we all know the issue with that. Had the 600-mile service done no worries. Mid Aug I take the bike in for service (around 1200 to 1500 miles) because Iím planning road trip for my vacation. I make the ride from Chicago to the DC area. It takes about 12 hrs to get there and I only get to ride a couple of hrs the next day because the bike dies on a busy highway. Iím just glad it died after I had arrived in DC and not along the way! I spend the rest of my vacation trying to figure out how to get the bike back to Chicago. The cheapest method ends up being me borrowing my brotherís truck, driving the bike back to Chicago, dropping it off at the dealer and then turning right around driving the truck back to DC and then catching a plane back to Chicago. Some vacation. After a day the dealer says the bike if ready and that it was just a blown fuse. I pick the bike up. Two days later the bike blows another fuse. I replaced it and a day later it blows yet another fuse. I return it to the dealer and tell him there is a problem because this bike with less than 2000 miles on it is blowing fuses like crazy. Even told them when it seemed to be doing it. They said theyíd need some time to figure it out and I said no problem. At this same time I started looking around the web and found some other people who had had similar issues and those issues had been resolved by replacing the alternator. Called the dealer to tell them what I had found (this had proven helpful before when the Strada die because of a bad fuel line clamp) and they said the mechanic was thinking the same thing and was looking into getting a new one. Like an idiot Iím thinking cool a quick fix, couple of days at the most.
To make a long story short despite the fact that after having the bike and a good idea what the problem was early on, almost a month later I still donít have Senna #212 home. Why? Because MV USA wants the dealership to run some software diags before they will send an alternator (this is what the dealer told me). But MV hasnít sent the software. Itís a case of ďwhoís on firstĒ. MV calls to see how the software is working, and the dealer tells them they are still waiting on it. MV says oh sorry weíll over night it. A couple of days later this gets repeated. At first while not funny it was mildly amusing. What wasnít amusing was when the mechanic told me he didnít think the software they were sending would do anything because it was for the FI system. I spoke to someone I knew at another MV dealership in another state (to see if they had another copy to loan my dealer, they didnít) and he said the same thing regarding the software and also thought an alternator would resolve the issue with Senna #212. This goes on for another week and I ask if they mind if I contacted MV to see what the hold up is. I didnít get any response until I went to MV/Ferracciís forum and asked about the software and if anyone else had a similar issue. For the record I was polite and asked in a ďlooking for infoĒ way. The response was immediate; as I get a call from my dealer asking, ďwhat Iíd doneĒ they had gotten a call from MV asking about who I was and why was I ďslammingĒ MV on the web. I guess because I publicly stated my MV had a problem I was trashing MV in their eyes. The next day the software shows, but not the info or hardware to install it (again according to my dealer). Another couple of days go and the software is installed and tested and doesnít do anything a replacement alternator is sent and a little over 6 weeks after I dropped it off I have Senna #212 back home. Unfortunately winter came early to Chicago and I didnít get a chance to take the bike out for a long ride to test if the alternator did fix the issue. Into storage it goes for winter. When the weather breaks I take it out for a couple of small trips but spend most of the first weekends of Spring 03 at the track with the Strada.
Fast-forward to May 03 and I have moved to San Diego. After taking a couple weeks to get settled in and find a place to stay I take Senna #212 out to try and get that first real ride in since Iíd had it back from the shop for the fuse issue. This is June 10th 2003. About 3 hrs into my ride the motor goes bang and thatís all she wrote. Have to pay to get towed home I call both my dealer back in Chicago and Matt. Not being in a position to ship the bike back to Chicago I call to make arrangements for the local dealer to look at it. They are backed up and canít look at it for almost 2 Ĺ weeks. I drop the bike off the last week of June. And it is there until Sept 9 almost 3 months to the day after it broke down. When I pick the bike up it is making some noises that it wasnít making before. I take it back and Iím told itís nothing but the exhaust springs vibrating and itís normal. So I ask why wasnít it doing that before if this was normal? Also I donít have brake lights and left signal doesnít work. And the bike seems like it is running hotter than normal. The brake light is fixed and that rattle is worked out a little, but I have to wait on the signal because the part needs to be ordered. A week or so later the signal is fixed but I still voice concerns about the temps that bike is running and about the smoke from the exhaust when the bike starts. This isnít first start of the day smoke either. It is every time the bike is started and again something that the bike wasnít doing before. A couple of days later I think I figure out the cause of some of the noises and the heating issues. The lower fan was clicking something awful. I look at it and it is all chewed up and sounds like itís bearings are shot. I show it to the dealer and a new fan is ordered. The fan shows and is installed (bike is still running higher temps than usual). While washing the bike I notice the radiator is loose and that the bike has gone through another lower fan. So now further time with the bike is needed to figure out what this problem is. This is where I am now.
Can anyone reading tell me if Iím wrong for feeling that I shouldnít have to be going through these issues? Before you answer that keep in mind that these arenít issues that occurring over long stretches of time, but immediately after the bike has been in the shop. Matt seems to love telling me how the MV is the model of reliability and that Senna #212 is the exception to the rule. If that is indeed the case then I donít understand why they wonít bite the bullet and replace the bike or if nothing else give me a loaner until Senna #212 is fixed correctly and completely. But that is unthinkable to Matt. I made it very clear that since moving to San Diego that Senna #212 was my primary means of transportation and being without it was costing my serious financial issues (it eventually contributed to me loosing my job and hindered my ability to find a new one as you canít work if you canít get there). To have this guy tell me how ďhe wouldnít depend on a bike for transportationĒ or how he doesnít understand why I canít find alternative transportation (i.e. renting a carÖ) is insulting. If I had wrecked the bike or done something to it I wouldnít expect anything from them. But all I did was put the key in the thing and hit a button, why should I have to pay for a rental (even if I could)? But even if I wasnít depending on the bike for transportation and just for enjoyment, I wouldnít be able to do that either. I canít understand how you can say Iím not being reasonable in my requests for a replacement bike or a loaner with the amount of problems Senna #212 has given me, especially when it was still new when all these problems started and considering the mileage between when it left the shop for the alternator and before the pistons let go and now the thing with the fans.
Also despite the fact that Matt is aware of this site and what Iíve tried to do with it (at my own expense) to promote MV and the things he may or may not know of (like doing testimonials for my dealer back in Chicago and at the tracks Iíve been to) for him to say I wasnít being fair to MV or showing them in a positive light when I took the site down back over the summer and explained why I did so, is a slap in the face. I guess he felt I was doing MV a disservice and costing them potential buyers because I decided to ďgo public with the story of Senna #212Ē. Sorry Matt, I think people have a right to as much info as needed to make a sound purchase with their cash. If after hearing about my woes they decided to take the plunge then so be it. But if you did indeed read what I wrote then you would see that I didnít slam MV as a whole. I praised (like I still do) the MV Agusta F4 but clearly stated that Senna #212 was a problem and stated what was going on in resolving that problem. Quite simply if you had done a better job in getting it resolved there wouldnít have been an issue.
Itís worse when he continues to talk about their great customer service and how they care but at the same time implies that I canít tell the difference between smoke and smells from say a fresh oil change and a real problem. Or high temps resulting from sitting in city traffic, as opposed to a bike that is just running hot. Thanks Matt for pointing out that the manual says the danger zone are temps in the 230 ranges, but you failed to mention that that same manual says that flashing numbers are indicators that the bike is reaching those dangerous levels. This is the range that Senna #212 constantly resides (which I pointed out to you) even when in open traffic. Yes Matt I know I purchased a sport bike and that sportbikes will run higher temps, but why is it after riding with a group of other sportbikes (many different brands, ages, models, sizes and yes a couple of Italian ones thrown in) on a mild day (80s) mine was the only one hitting these types of temps and puking coolant when we stopped, even though I was the only one not riding hard and pissing everyone off because I was lagging behind? Also please tell me Matt again why wasnít this a problem before the motor rebuild in hotter temps? Oh I forgot youíre right the motor was just rebuilt and has to break in, but did you forget I purchased the bike new and didnít have these issues when I broke it in the first time? Did you catch that part Matt? Why did I have to break it in again? Oh thatís because the motor blew up at 4500 miles. But I guess thatís ok as long as I donít mention it in public. As long as Iím without my bike for pleasure or necessity. As long as I donít possibly do anything that might effect the sells of you lifeline.
Also Matt is it just coincidence that while you say certain problems donít exist or you have no knowledge of existing, but turn out to be things other MV owners have experienced? You say I shouldnít be concerned with the ďrumorsĒ regarding valve/piston problems with the MV regardless of that is what happened to my bike. Yet another owner reported about happening to other MVís in the Uk. Matt, if this problem doesnít exist or is on such a small unrelated scale, why did a mag in the UK not only mention it in a recent right up of the bike but named the model line in specific which has been effected by it? Please tell me Matt how am I supposed to ride Senna #212 (when I have it in my possession) if I ride like a grandma it will over heat. Yet even though it is marketed, as a ďhigh performance sportbikeĒ if I use it as such you guys will say any resulting problems are abuse and therefore void the warranty (but it will still overheat). Also how are we supposed to use the service coupons if we donít have them (which was the case with my Strada) or if the dealer says they arenít needed (which has been the case with the Senna) or never asks for them?
Miscommunication is what you say MattÖthen why do I have to be penalized for mistakes between you and your dealers? If they arenít trained itís your job to train them or train them better. There is no reason why I should be aware of issues with the MVs that the dealer isnít and that you say you arenít. There is simply no excuse for that. Before you say that isnít the cause I can personally tell you of 3! Why all the invoice problems with the orders between you and your dealers, which seems to be common? Again I can personally tell you of a few.
At this point Iím resigned to that fact that I have spent over $25,000 on a piece of shit. If I was dishonest I could wash it and sell it at a decent price and not tell the buyer of the history of Senna #212. Unfortunately for me Iím not dishonest and after I give full disclosure of Senna #212ís history, potential buyers have all immediately tried to lowball the price to ridiculous levels. So Iím stuck with Senna #212 and the fact that Iím not going to get any reasonable help from MV USA in getting it running correctly. Thanks for nothing Matt. While Iím usually not a quitter you have broken me. You win. Happy now? You wonít be hearing anything else from me regarding Senna #212. The piece of shit will soon be parked and used as the display piece that everyone tells me it should have been in the first place. It will be a costly reminded that I shouldnít have been so impulsive and if I hadnít Iíd have my R7 instead. And since the Strada has long since been out of warranty there will be no further reason for me to bother you again.
-- TP (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 03, 2003
TP, fIRST OF ALL I WANT TO SAY THIS. AND THIS IS STRAIGHT UP.IF THAT WAS MY BIKE IT WOULD PARKED AT THE DEALER..bECAUSE YOU BETTER BE DARN SURE IF i PAID SO MUCH MONEY FOR THE BIKE,i WANT IT RIGHT.As for matt is concern,He is a sales man and if he tells you you could swim carrying one on your back,That what he thinks.So you do your thing and stop worring about matt.There is an excellent mechanic call john french at pro italia up in glendale,ca. give him a call and talk with him. I live in h/b california and if you need my help I am here. but at present i am in detriot running down another mv agusta dick with a simular sales pitch. But give me a call 310 927 8843 if you need help or more advice.
-- Clifford Proctor (Navflyn@aol.com), November 04, 2003.
TP ,read my e-mail to you, I'm pulling for ya bro. the bike is great but dealing w/ cagiva n.a. is worse than going to the dentist.
-- dave rookaird (email@example.com), November 04, 2003.
Shit TP-thats enough hassle for all of us put together,Sounds like you need to find a dealer who knows what he`s talking about.Excessive smoke on start up is usually a valve guide/seal type of problem- probably the valve that was involved in the original blow up-Hope your `luck` changes a bit!!
-- mike tilston (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 04, 2003.
That's fucked up. I would have kicked somebody's ass by now. Set the fuckin bike on fire in the dealership. Collect the insurance. That bike is a lemon.
-- Brett (DocBDH@aol.com), November 04, 2003.
I would have the bike sent to Fast By Ferracci's dealer and have them review all the problems and correct them accordingly. I have found Ferracci to be very honest and have reliable service. They have experience with these bikes; they don't just get one in on occasion to service. I have Senna 176 and have not experienced any problems; all service has been done at Ferracci. A friend who had a few problems with his MV had everything taken care of by Ferracci with out any hassles.
Your inital alternator problem sounds as if it was fixed correctly only after a little trouble trying to diagnose the problem. The following motor problem should have been resolved after an engine rebuild. The overheating problem, smoking and lighting issues seems to me as a result of careless or inexperienced dealer mechanics.
I WOULD CONCLUDE THAT YOUR RECENT TROUBLE IS A RESULT OF DEALER INEXPERIENCE. Again have Ferracci review the status of the bike; if they find that previous mechanics incorrectly preformed work on your bike I would pursue those dealers for compensation.
Good luck with the bike. If things do not get resolved maybe you should look into lemon laws; they maybe an option to consider.
-- Andrew Randazzo (email@example.com), November 04, 2003.
Hmm. Andrew may have a point. We should probably make sure it's not due poor training on the dealer's part. I'm not sure how many MV's GP Motos has worked on,since there probably aren't many MVs in CA.
Do you think your Senna could make it to Tucson, AZ (neareset authorized dealer)?
If you get two dealers to confirm the problem is due to the bike and not a dealer's skill, then a complaint to the Better Business Bureau or a lemon law suit would go much farther.
PS: If you decide to go to Tucson, let me know and I'll met you there. My '02 is due for service soon.
-- Allan Gibbs (Phoenix, Az) (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 04, 2003.
really bad story!!!! here in france there are just few dealer wich are really good!!! but all the problems i know were resolved quickly! and italy is not far!! i've got 2 friends who get senna (68 and 278) and they got no problems!!i hope all will be better for you!!
-- dauly alex (email@example.com), November 04, 2003.
MAN!!!!!!!!! I can't beleive what i'm reading. I feel so bad for this guy. Here i am thinking MV usa would do the right thing by him. I have bin reading all about mv AGUSTA thinking there one of the best motorcycle manufacturer??? I'm riding a yamaha R1 1999. after reading all there is to know about mv i'm ready to put a deposit on a long awaited F4S 1000cc..or should i ??? Unfortunately after reading this man's historey with mv I'm thinking twice about investing $ 25,000 with a company that does not suport the buyer .please tell me this is not the case??
-- Gino L . Caterino (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 04, 2003.
I wonder if Proton will have an influence on MV's customer service.(probably not)
-- ben (email@example.com), November 04, 2003.
Seems like just another importer digging their heels in on a friday afternoon, because he doesn't want to investigate, and if your stubborn once, it's hard to go back and admit there is a problem, that you can solve, when taking the time to look into it (which inevitably will cost money and time). Disecting your entire story, the technical problems are not that difficult to point out, and as said, could be attributed to dealer inexperience, but in such cases there is one party that should take the lead in rectifying the situation and that's MV USA!! Matt knows as well as anyone that the warranty dept.(MV Italy) is easily persuaded to front the cost of rectifying this problem, it is after all still an italian company
Not meaning to slam on all MV importers (I worked with considerable pleasure at a European MV Importer, for some years, as a sales agent...)
Best of luck to you
-- Art (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 05, 2003.
It would seem the prudent thing to do is to explore legal options. Secure an attorney with offices in Chicago and California specializes in Lemon Law, to pursue the matter. I am sure it will end up in arbitration, but at that point shit already hit the fan.
Woohoo, job well done, Matt and Larry! (Oh yeah, thanks for that bit on 2WT, we all know what you look like. Let hope we will never have the pleasure of meeting up with you.)
-- D. Allen Nguyen (Archille@hotmail.com), November 06, 2003.
Can't believe what you had gone thru, TP! I agree with Andrew and found FBF to be more-than-capable people to work on the bike (of course you're in CA, though). Did you ever get some form of reimbursement? I ask 'cause if this was an auto under warranty, you get a 'rental'. Chances are you got one small fudge of a problem and the rest came after when 'inutil', unqualified peeps worked on it.
One can only hope that somebody in MVUSA/dealers would do QUALITY CONTROL !!!
I can almost feel your pain, 'bro. jon-jon
-- jon-jon (email@example.com), November 06, 2003.
Well I want to state a couple of things. To be fair to GP Motors who rebuilt the Sennaís motor, they have been more than accommodating to me than MV USA has. . And I give them credit for that because to them Iím nobody. I didnít purchase the bike from them and had not been a customer of theirs. I moved into their area with a problem and that was their first contact with me. Iím not a mechanic and donít know the inís and outís of a motor so I canít state about the quality of the way that the motor was rebuilt. But I do know that it hasnít been the same since it was rebuilt. I also know that Iíve yet to meet one person, mechanic, dealer or otherwise, Iíve talked to about motor problems and the problems with my Senna in particular who didnít think the bike should have been replaced or at the least had the motor replaced instead of being rebuilt. Especially considering the age of the bike
Regardless if MV (or any other company for that matter) is going to require that people use ďauthorizedĒ service centers for warranty work then it is MVís responsibility to make sure of the quality of these places are at specific standards. So if one of these places is indeed doing bad work or service itís up to MV to get that resolved as well as making sure that they are trained properly and kept up to date with training and info. Because in the end it is their name that is on the line.
But my main point is the quality of customer service that MV USA has shown me. And if they canít give good customer support from their end how can we expect them to set the example for their dealer/service network? A perfect example is the response to my ďgoing publicĒ with my Senna story. MV had a chance to do the right thing from the start and chose not to. At that point I would have just looked at the whole situation as 1 bad apple out of a million and still had a good opinion of the company. Even up until about a week before I ďwent publicĒ they still refused to change their attitude. Its only now that Iím not keeping this thing in the closet any more that they are offering the thing that I had been asking for since the damn bike broke down. Some for of a loaner while the bike is repaired. But now itís too late. Matt could have done this before but choose not too. On his side the only difference between then and now is the fact that Iím not being quiet any more. Unfortunately for me itís a huge difference and my financial losses have been huge. I canít even begin to think about selling the Senna until it is working correctly.
Matt may be a good pitchman or salesperson but itís obvious customer service isnít something he is good at. Or if he is actually good at it heís forgotten when to switch between sells and service mode. The sad thing is that Iím left with no other option than to consider legal action. On my part Iíve got nothing to lose because to date my bike still isnít working right and it costs me nothing to file suit because most of the lemon law lawyers only charge if they win your case and the defendants (if they lose) end up paying all the legal fees of both parts. Everyone seems to admit that this is a real unusual situation with Senna #212 and as such it isnít likely that it would start a rash of demands for replacement bikes. But it seems MV USA would rather spend the cash to go to court, build even more bad feelings and even more bad press (cause for sure Iím not going to be quiet about it), than to take a cheaper more positive route and replace a motorcycle that they know is a lemon. One that they can take back to their shop and try to figure out what went wrong with this bike and make sure it doesnít happen again. Or resolve it quicker if it does.
-- TP (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 09, 2003.