This is for Kevin. He knows the Scriptures inside out and I am curious as to his answers via his interpretations. Here goes:

A man--we'll call him Fool--marries a woman--we'll call her Gem. They were married for ton years. Finally, Gem could not take living with Fool. Fool more than likely brought it upon himself. Gem seperates from him and promptly prepares for a divorce. Fool begs her to stay and keep the marriage. Gem refuses and submits divorce papers. Fool has no choice; if he could move the earth, he still could not convince her to stay. Fool signs on the dotted line. The marriage is over, but his heart cannot let go. He still loves her, but in reality it is over. Fool's heart still broken, yet still must go on a make a new life for himself. Fool marries again, but this time Fool marries a Christian woman--we'll call her Gen. Fool and Gen have children for the very first time. Their life together is more in accordance with God's will. Gem, for all we know, is still alive and no contacts have been made since the final signing of the divorce documents. 1988 was a very tribulant year for Fool.

My questions, Kevin:

What sins have been committed by Fool, Gem, and Gen?
If sins are committed, can they be forgiven and how?
Are Fool and Gen still in sin?
Are Fool and Gem still in sin?
What are the chances of Fool, Gem, and Gen losing their Salvation over this divorce?

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 27, 2003

Answers

Fool is still suffering; he cannot find forgiveness in any doctrine. He prays for forgiveness, but man seems to have deaf ears. God hears.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 27, 2003.

rod,

Marriage is nearly as old as the human race. It was ordained by the Creator Himself. It was God's will that a man and a woman become one in marriage. No provision was made for either polygamy or divorce. Marriage was intended by God to be for life (Genesis 1:26-28; 2:18-25; Romans 7:1-3; 1 Corinthians 7:39).

It was not long, however, until men departed from God's original plan. Polygamy began to be practiced (Genesis 4:19). When the Law of Moses was given to Israel, the people had become so hard-hearted that God permitted divorce, but only under certain conditions (Deuteronomy 24:1-4). Even then, God was not pleased with divorce. He said: "I hate putting away" (Malachi 2:14-16).

When Jesus came into the world and gave His law for all mankind, He did not give a new and different law of marriage. Instead He called mankind back to God's original plan (Matthew 19:3-12). His commandment, "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder" is still God's will for us today!

The Lord allowed only one cause for divorce. This cause is sexual unfaithfulness on the part of one's marriage partner. Fornication on the part of a marriage partner gives the innocent partner the right to divorce and remarry. But no such privilege is given to the guilty partner. To divorce and remarry for other than the one Scriptural cause is to commit adultery. To marry one who has been divorced who was not the innocent party is to commit adultery (Matthew 19:9; 5:31,32). Adulterers will not go to Heaven. They will spend eternity in Hell (1 Corinthians 6:9,10; Hebrews 13:4; Revelation 21:8). Those who are living in adultery must repent, stop committing adultery and seek the Lord's forgiveness if they want to be saved.

The home is the basic unit of society. It is the function of the home to provide companionship, the satisfaction of basic human needs and the rearing and training of children. The community, the church, and the nation can only be strong when the home is strong. Many evil forces seek to destroy the home today. Among these evil forces are easy divorce laws, sexual immorality, false views of woman's role in society, but most of all, ignorance of, and a failure to obey God's law of marriage which is given in the Bible.

God's people must never compromise God's will on marriage! We have no right to change God's requirements! In a day when the world increasingly accepts divorce and remarriage for almost any cause, God's people must stand out as lights shining in darkness (Philippians 2:13,14). It is not our duty to be changed by the world's standards, but to seek to bring the world to God's standards (Romans 12:1,2).

It is very important that we teach our children that marriage is for life and divorce is sinful except for the one reason that Jesus gave.

Let us never forget or forsake the divine admonition: "Let marriage be had in honour among all, and let the bed be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge" (Hebrews 13:4, American Standard Version, 1901 edition).

God's plan for marriage is still "one man, one wife, for life!"

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 28, 2003.

Well, ??

Fool is not innocent, then. Fool will fry.

Gem is not innocent, then. Gem will fry.

Gen is not innocent, then. Gen will fry.

Do I have this right?

Fool wanted to keep the marriage together. Fool would have had to live with a person who did not want to be with Fool.
Fool then make the mistake of accepting the divorce and remarrying. In doing so, Fool committed adultry by remarrying. Gem caused the adultery to happen when she divorced. Gen committed adultery by marrying Fool.

I thought so.

But, Kevin, I see that you were very careful in not really giving an answer to my questions. It would seem that the only way to correct the wrong is this:

1. divorce for Fool and Gen.

2. wait for Gem's passing away. (You forgot about "til death do us part").

3. Fool and Gem must reconcile with each other. That would be like unscrambling eggs.

4. Accept the fact that Fool, Gem, and Gen will go to Hell.

5. Pray for forgiveness, which is basically going against the Scriptures or erasing the Scriptures that pertains to 'divorce'.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

I forgot one other answer:

Fool, Gem, and Gen can leave their marriages and become priest or nuns. The children would be given up. I believe that such an action would be ok. Ridiculous, but still ok.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

rod,

I told you what God has said on this subject. It is up to you to either ACCEPT what God says, or REJECT what God says. The choice is YOURS to make.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 28, 2003.

I accept what the Scriptures tell me, but I am confused as to what it means. Please give me a straight answer based on your interpretations of the Scriptures. Is Fool destined to damnation, yes or no?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

rod,

What is so hard for you to understand about what God has PLAINLY revealed in Scripture???

1. The Lord allowed only one cause for divorce. This cause is sexual unfaithfulness on the part of one's marriage partner.

Was there any "sexual unfaithfulness" in your original reason for divorce? You didn't mention it, so I would take that as a No.

2. To divorce and remarry for other than the one Scriptural cause is to commit adultery.

Since neither of the two who were originally married divorced for this reason then BOTH of them are GUILTY of ADULTERY.

3. To marry one who has been divorced who was not the innocent party is to commit adultery (Matthew 19:9; 5:31,32).

The man in the original marriage (I prefer not to use the name that you used rod) could NOT (based on Scripture) remarry someone else because his first marriage did NOT end due to fornication. Since this is the case, he is guilty of committing adultery and so is his second wife.

4. Adulterers will not go to Heaven. They will spend eternity in Hell (1 Corinthians 6:9,10; Hebrews 13:4; Revelation 21:8).

All three of the parties, (the first man and wife and the second wife) will NOT go to Heaven.

I thought my first reply was easy to understand, but obviously I was mistaken.

Does this answer your question rod?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 28, 2003.

You don't like the name "Fool", but I suppose "Damned" would be more fitting?

So, then, there is no way for Salvation in any of the three?

This seems to nullify Christ' sacrifice on the cross for these three people in my case study. So, it would be a lie to say that Christ died for everyone's sins? So, then, for these three people it would be of no reason for them to have faith because they are already "damned". Am I understanding this, because as we can all see, this is so difficult for me to understand?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

If we are to speak the truth, we may as well use terms that speak the truth--they are damned to hell, yes?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

rod,

You said, "So, then, there is no way for Salvation in any of the three?"

ONLY if the wife reconciled to her first husband (or vice versa) can she have an opportunity to be saved. Then, ONLY if they OBEY the gospel.

If the second wife remains unmarried (after her divorce), then if she OBEYS the gospel, she can be saved.

You wrote, "This seems to nullify Christ' sacrifice on the cross for these three people in my case study. So, it would be a lie to say that Christ died for everyone's sins?"

Did Jesus say there was ONLY one reason for divorce???

Yes or No?

Did Jesus lie when He made that statement?

I don't think He did do you??

He most certainly didn't say "oops, never mind, I didn't see the cross"

Yes, Jesus died for everyone but they must come to Him on HIS TERMS. Jesus said that there was ONLY one reason for divorce and that was EXACTLY as Matthew 5:32 states.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 28, 2003.

Ok.........!

We've established the conditions of the sin. Now, the remedy/penance:

In order to make everything right, this is what must happen.

1. Fool and Gem must divorce their present spouses.
2. Fool and Gem must marry each other again.
3. Gen must live unmarried.
4. The children must be supported by Fool and Gen.
5. All must obey God's will.

Now, the children will suffer their broken home. The children will now pay for the Salvation of their parents. Amazing!

My solution?

Fool should consider himself damned and concentrate on his children's Salvation. The children should not have to suffer . Fool may as well live a lie so that his children may live focused on God's will. The children need not know of their parents' sins.

There is something missing in all of this. Someday, the missing parts may be revealed. It may resolve meaning things.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

It may resolve many things. (sorry)

It would take a miracle from God to unite Fool and Gem. I believe that Fool truly believes that there is no hope for himself in the Kingdom of God. So, Fool will have to live through his children. Ah! but those in hell have no more prayers, yet he continues to pray that God will save his children. What a mess Fool has made for his world. Fool fell in love with the only woman he truly loved. Ah! but what a mess when love becomes a shadow. Ah! but what a mess when she no longer can love him. Fool for the longest time felt that death was the only solution because a Catholic con never, ever, never divorce. What a fool he was to believe that a marriage is forever. Well Fool was fooled, but the biggest marriage was with hell itself. Fool can pray, but his prayers, like his flesh, only burn and burn.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

rod,

Whose fault is it that the children have to suffer from a broken home?

The parents are the ones at fault!!!

If they (the parents) would have OBEYED God in the first place, then there would have been NO BROKEN HOME.

People conveniently forget that marriage is "until death do we part".

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 28, 2003.

What does the bible say about getting a divorce? What must be the reason?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 28, 2003.

"What does the bible say about getting a divorce? What must be the reason?"

"But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality (fornication - kjv) causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery." (Matthew 5:32).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 28, 2003.

Kevin? Fool believed that marriage was til death do us part. Gem evidently did not. This is why Fool is such a fool. Fool's love blinded him. When he recited the vows, those vows were real and before God. Fool did not want to divorce. He tried everything. His mistake was to try and live a normal life just like others around him. He wanted a loving wife and children, just like any other sinner/Christian. Fool was a weak person trying to live the right way. Fool should have not remarried and chosen one of three alternatives: 1) stay unmarried, 2) entered the priesthood, 3) well, we won't go there.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

rod,

I understand what you are getting at. I think I know why you might be asking these questions, but I will leave it at that (in my mind that is).

One thing I forgot to mention was that the man if he did divorce his second wife, he did NOT have to get back with his first wife in order to be saved. If (after he divorced his second wife) he obeyed the gospel then he could be saved.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 28, 2003.

I should study the lives of the Apostles in regards to their marriages. I understand that St. Peter was married. What about St. Paul? Hmm? There is something missing in all of this. I will find it.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 29, 2003.

Can we look at these Scriptures and make some understanding for divorce and Salvation?

Deuteronomy 24

1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. 2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. 3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; 4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance

Mark 10

1 And he arose from thence, and cometh into the coasts of Judaea by the farther side of Jordan: and the people resort unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again. 2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. 3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? 4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. 5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. 11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

John 8

1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

I was going to post from a Bible other than the King James Version, but copy

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 02, 2003.

rod,

I think you might find this article helpful. What Does the Bible Teach About Divorce?

Divorce is a growing problem in America. The casual attitude of divorce in the secular world is spilling over into the church where the statistics are only slightly lower. Consider the following statistics from the US Census Bureau:
In 1920, there was 1 divorce for every 7 marriages. That is 14%.
In 1940, there was 1 divorce for every 6 marriages. That is 17%.
In 1960, there was 1 divorce for every 4 marriages. That is 25%.
In 1972, there was 1 divorce for every 3 marriages. That is 33%.
In 1977, there was 1 divorce for every 2 marriages. That is 50%.
Of course, the divorce rate has stayed around 50% since the 70's, but has recently exceeded that.

Marriage was first instituted by God in the Garden of Eden. It is a monogamous, physical and spiritual union between a man and a woman (Gen. 2:21-24), where adultery was forbidden (Exodus 20:14), and dissolution was not allowed. But it didn't take long for the monogamous arrangement to become corrupted. Polygamy became an accepted social custom (Gen. 16:1-2; Deut. 21:15). In fact, many of the Kings of Israel were polygamists. The norm, however, was, and still is, monogamy.

People Got Divorced in the Bible.

As is evident in the statistics above, people get divorced. Even in the Bible there was divorce. In the OT, only men were able to divorce their wives (Deut. 24:1-4). In the NT, women were also apparently able to initiate divorce (Mark 10:12; 1 Cor. 7:13). But, what is a Christian to do if he or she has been divorced? Can he remarry? Should he stay single? Is the Christian guilty of a perpetual sin if he or she divorces?

God wants the Christian to take marriage very seriously. Jesus said, "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate" (Mark 10:9 -- see also 1 Cor. 7:10-11; Heb. 13:4.).(2) But, because we live in an imperfect world, the Bible speaks about the circumstance of divorce. Let's take a look.

The Biblical Reasons For Divorce

Adultery: Jesus said, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery" (Matt. 19:9). The word in Greek for immorality is porneia from which we get the word pornography. Sexual immorality, i.e., adultery, is a grounds for divorce according to Jesus.

Abandonment: In addressing the issue of husband and wife, Paul said, "Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace" (1 Cor. 7:15).

Some Questions Answered

I would like to say up front that the following answers are my opinions. Also, part of the answers to questions on divorce must include grace. God is not a Law Master who wants to forcefully bring His people into broken submission. God is very forgiving and loving. He wants His people to experience joy and fulfillment in their lives and this can only be done in the grace of forgiveness. Jesus bore all your sins, even the sins of divorce. They have been paid for. He will not bring them up again on the Day of Judgment. You are free in Christ.

However, there are some biblical guidelines that we need to be aware of regarding divorce. I offer the following outline as a suggestion of options.

What if a person was an unbeliever when he got divorced and it was for an unbiblical reason and later became a Christian? What should he do?
If reconciliation is an option, seek it.
However, If the ex-spouse is not a Christian, he should not remarry the spouse because a believer is not to marry an unbeliever (2 Cor. 6:14).
If either spouse has gotten married, remarriage is not an option either (Deut. 24:3-4; Mark 10:11-12).
If the ex spouse will have nothing to do with any reconciliation or you are not able to contact this person, you are free to remarry. If the spouse has died, you are free to remarry.

What if a person was a believer when he got divorced, but the reason was not adultery or abandonment, and wants to remarry someone different now what should he do?
If you initiated the divorce, then you should not remarry (Matt. 5:31), However....
Reconciliation with the initial spouse should be sought with confession of sin and the request for forgiveness.
If it was the spouse that left without a biblical reason, then you are free to remarry.
Reconciliation should be sought with a confession of sin.

What if a couple was divorced, married others, got divorced, and wants to become remarried to again?
The Bible says that you cannot return to your first spouse after you remarried (De 24:3,4; Jer 3:1).

If you have, nevertheless, already gotten married, continue in your marriage and seek the Lord's forgiveness. He will give it.

What if a person was a believer when he got divorced, but the reason was not adultery or abandonment, and has already gotten married. Is he in sin?

Depending on the circumstances, he may be. But he should confess his sin to the lord and spouse and seek forgiveness from the original spouse and then he should stay married and be the best husband (or wife) he can be.

I hope these brief answers help you understand some aspects of divorce and remarriage. But, brothers and sisters in Christ, please seek the advice of your pastor in this area if you have further questions.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 02, 2003.

Hi David.

Your answers are very informative. I do not wish anyone to be walking around thinking that they have no chance for Salvation if they have been divorced. Your answers hit an some of those particular circumstances that I'm sure many have suffered. There are people who've been caught in situations that were out of their control. These are the people who have suffered un-needlessly. These are the people who've been included in the statistics of divorce. Those statistics never really tell the whole truth about divorce. Yes, today's society is very ignorant of obedience to God and think that divorce is about the same as buying a new car or taking out the trash. Things happen in a marriage and one spouse may not have the power to make things right. They are left to the mercy of the other partner. I pray that God will take them into His arms and make things better for them.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 03, 2003.

rod,

Deuteronomy 24 does NOT give authority for anyone to remarry today for we are NOT under OT law anymore, we are under the NT. What does Matthew 19:8-9 say?

Mark 10 doesn't prove your case either.

What does verse 9 say?

Go back and re-read verses 11-12.

John 8 also does NOT prove your case for Jesus while He was on earth had the power to forgive sin. (See Matt 9:8, Mark 2:10). The Pharisees wanted to stone this woman to (physical) death (they condemned her) and Jesus did not condemn her to physical death but admonished her to go and sin no more. (See Romans 2:4, also Rom 2:5-16).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 04, 2003.

Hi Kevin.

Kevin- John 8 also does NOT prove your case for Jesus while He was on earth had the power to forgive sin. (See Matt 9:8, Mark 2:10).

rod- Jesus still has the power to forgive sin anywhere He desires. I don't understand the significance of being on earth or Heaven or anywhere.

Kevin- The Pharisees wanted to stone this woman to (physical) death (they condemned her) and Jesus did not condemn her to physical death but admonished her to go and sin no more. (See Romans 2:4, also Rom 2:5-16).

rod- Jesus forgave her sin. She was to go and sin no more. Of course, it is impossible to "sin no more" because no man is without sin. Or, can man exist on earth and "sin no more"? The Catholics believe in having a "clean" soul.

The problem I see is that once one has divorced and cannot/will not correct the error/sin, the person is basically condemned. If this is true, why a condemned person--who has no way of redemption by his own actions--even bother to have any faith?

Fool cannot reconciliate with his first wife--a miracle would be needed.
Fool cannot divorce his present wife--his children would suffer.
Fool would destroy his wife's life, but would provide a solution for their Salvation--self action of Salvation.
Jesus would forgive all three people only if each were either single or Fool and Gem would marry?

Well, the initial reason for the divorce must then determine who was at fault for the divorce. Only then will the three understand where Salvation exists for them. Do you think that God knows who is at fault? If man cannot figure it out, I'm sure God knows.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 04, 2003.

There are two major problems that seem obvious in a divorce.

1. The broken marriage.
2. The inability of one or both of the spouses to forgive.

God does not want marriages to fail. There are reasons that allow a marriage to dissolve (mentioned earlier in this thread). But, the real reasons spouses give can be biblical or secular. If forgiveness truly existed in a marriage, the potential for divorce should not exists. Had both spouses maintained a faith in God, things would have been different. All of the factors leading up to the divorce would have been resloved before that big tragedy. Or, the elements that existed before the marriage should have been examined properly and thoroughly before the engagement prior to the wedding. But, all of this is "20/20" hind-sight. It doesn't do anybody any good now, or does it?

It is easy to say that Scriptures says this or that and stamp the divorced with "condemned" or "saved'. But, there has to be more to it. Poor Fool is lost and presumed dead, but is he really? I don't think so. Possibly Fool has condemned himself and made himself and others victims. But, to believe that he has no way out without committing further sins is one scenario that I cannot understand nor accept. The answers are there; we have to dig deeper.

r

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 04, 2003.

Consider this:

The Catholic Church provides a tribunal to determind the validity or invalidity of a marriage. That outcome of the tribunal will then have an impact on the Catholic in regards to their standing in the Church and Salvation, as the divorced person continues his life.

What does your non-Catholic church provide?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 04, 2003.

Matthew 19:4-6

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And said, For this cause shall man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

Matthew 19:8-12

"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be uenuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

I see these verses answering to the question of man and woman being one. This puts to rest any ideas about homosexual marriages. It also gives reasoning to the idea of celebacy whether by condition or by choice. It also provides for the definition of divorce. But, I also read one very fine sequence of words--"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder". Now, what exactly does this mean?

"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

Are we to understand this verse to refer the union of man and woman as the purpose of men and women in God's will? Yes. Does this also mean that men and women are allowed to marry? Yes. Does this mean that no one may take away the purpose of the union of man and woman as one, such as in marriage? Yes. Does this mean that any union other that the man and woman is against God's will? Yes. Now, my unaswered question: How do we know that a particular marriage has been joined by God or by man?

The gift of marriage has been provided by God. But, how do we know that a marriage is valid when two people do not marry in accordance to God's will, but instead marry for convenience or frolick? In other words, their marriage may have taken place in the church, but not in the faith of a "real" marriage. Did God join the two in Holy Matrimony or did the two just get hitched? If the wedding took place outside of the Holy Matrimony as provided by God, then it would seem that anyone can bring that union "asunder" because it was a man-made union.

So, what happens if one is not in accordance to God's will in Holy Matrimony, but decides to marry the other anyway? Is this marriage considered to be what God has joined or what man has joined? In other words, is the marriage valid when one marries an un-believer, or both

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 04, 2003.

...or when both are un-believers?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 05, 2003.

rod,

The church has NO authority to determine the validity of a marriage. There is ONLY one reason for divorce and that is EXACTLY as Matthew 19:8-9 states.

The problem is that men (and women) do NOT want to accept what God has said and want to put their own laws OVER what God has already SPECIFICALLY stated in His Word.

Go back and re-read what the disciples said to Jesus in Matthew 19:10.

All of your reasoning to get around the truth does not change what Jesus has already stated in the NT concerning this subject.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 05, 2003.

Fine, Kevin. We will listen to you and your interpretation. Fool, Gem, and Gen will have to just rot in Hell. Case closed.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 05, 2003.

So, here is the example that shoots down the "once saved, always saved" doctrine--divorce. So much for faith, while we're at it.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 05, 2003.

rod,

It is NOT my interpretation, it is EXACTLY what the Word of God states.

NO interpretation is required.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 06, 2003.

Divorce has NOTHING to do with the "once saved always saved" doctrine.

Anyone who has read the NT can PLAINLY see that this doctrine (OSAS) is nothing but an invention of men.

1 Corinthians 10:12 states, "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

It is IMPOSSIBLE to "FALL" from someplace one has never been.

One can also "DEPART" from God for Hebrews 3:12 states, "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;"

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 06, 2003.

Alright, Kevin. It isn't your interpretation. You know exactly what God teaches. You then know exactly what will happen to Fool, Gem, and Gen. Will you please tell these people that they will have to divorce their spouses and re-marry their first spouses or live un-married?

This seems to be the only solution for Salvation. Will you tell them that if they continue in their present condition, they will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?

rod..

..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

rod,

You wrote, "Alright, Kevin. It isn't your interpretation. You know exactly what God teaches."

It is NOT hard to know EXACTLY what God teaches for it is PLAINLY revealed in His Word. If Matthew 19:9 states "whoever divorces his wife EXCEPT for sexual immorality, and MARRIES ANOTHER, COMMITS ADULTERY; and whoever MARRIES HER WHO IS DIVORCED COMMITS ADULTERY." is hard to understand then it is no wonder that you CANNOT understand the Bible and have to rely on the Catholic Church to interpret it for you!!!

You wrote, "You then know exactly what will happen to Fool, Gem, and Gen. Will you please tell these people that they will have to divorce their spouses and re-marry their first spouses or live un-married? This seems to be the only solution for Salvation. Will you tell them that if they continue in their present condition, they will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?"

I believe I already have done the very thing you seek earlier in this thread.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

Kevin, of this I am 100% sure, you are wrong about me relying on the Catholic Church to intrepret the Bible for me. The Church has done the interpretations; it is up to me to accept or reject. It is much like your church. The church of Christ--which you attend--has set up the guidlines for you. You may accept or reject your faith system same as me. I cannot honestly say that I accept the Church 100%, as you seem to imply. I only pray that God with have mercy on me when I reject or accept any doctrine. I can never say that any doctrine is 100% true; I'm happy for you if you believe that of your faith system. It just so happens that Catholicism makes much sense to me, even if you do think that I am mentally deficient. But, at the same time, I have two very extreme issues to figure out, which keep me just outside of the Church walls.

Hmm? Sexual immorality? Would sexual immorality before marriage be the one thing I'm looking for in order to pull Fool out of hell's appointment? Fool learned of those immoralities after the "I do's". Hmm?

ro

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

rod,

You wrote, "Kevin, of this I am 100% sure, you are wrong about me relying on the Catholic Church to intrepret the Bible for me. The Church has done the interpretations; it is up to me to accept or reject."

Come on now rod this CANNOT be true for a Catholic CANNOT have their own private interpretation of Scripture. It is NOT up to you to "accept" or "reject" otherwise you would NOT be a Catholic for they would surely excommunicate you or call you a heretic for NOT believing their interpretations.

You wrote, "It is much like your church. The church of Christ--which you attend--has set up the guidlines for you. You may accept or reject your faith system same as me."

No, another false statement. The church of Christ does NOT set up any guidelines for me. It is up to ME, MYSELF, and I (no I am not crazy - nor am I three different persons) to INTERPRET and UNDERSTAND the Bible. No one else can do this for me because I ALONE am responsible for my OWN FAITH. We will be judged by our OWN works, and NOT those of someone else.

You wrote, "I cannot honestly say that I accept the Church 100%, as you seem to imply."

rod, I know you don't accept the Catholic Church 100% otherwise you would still be a faithful Catholic.

You wrote, "I only pray that God with have mercy on me when I reject or accept any doctrine."

I will continue to pray for you rod that God will open your eyes to the truth.

You wrote, "I can never say that any doctrine is 100% true;"

If you continue to make this statement, then you will NEVER be saved.

You wrote, "I'm happy for you if you believe that of your faith system. It just so happens that Catholicism makes much sense to me, even if you do think that I am mentally deficient."

I never said you were "mentally dificient". I find it hard to understand why people can read a regular book but when it comes to reading a message of salvation from our Creator they have to have an interpreter this rod is what does not make any sense.

You wrote, "Hmm? Sexual immorality? Would sexual immorality before marriage be the one thing I'm looking for in order to pull Fool out of hell's appointment? Fool learned of those immoralities after the "I do's". Hmm?"

Sorry, that still does NOT change what God has SPECIFICALLY stated in His Word concerning this subject.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

MERCY FOR FOOL IS IN THE ETERNAL MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH!

MERCY FOR FOOL IS IN THE ETERNAL MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH!

MERCY FOR FOOL IS IN THE ETERNAL MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH!

THE SOLUTION IS SIMPLE AND EASY. (Come you who labor and are heavily laden and I will give you rest for my yoke is Easy and my burden is Light. (Matthew 11:29-30)

ALL FOOL HAS TO DO IS TO GO TO CONFESSION AND HE WILL OBTAIN ABSOLUTION AND FORGIVENESS FOR ALL THE SINS HE HAD COMMITTED. FOOL WILL BECOME WHITE AS SNOW THOUGH HIS SINS WERE AS SCARLET.

IN THE CONFESSIONAL BOX, GOD WILL ALSO GIVE HIM THE GRACE TO DO PENANCE.

FOOL ALSO NEEDS TO SEEK THE SPIRITUAL DIRECTION OF A WISE, HOLY, COMPETENT PRIEST (PRIESTS IF FOOL WANTS A SECOND OR THIRD OPINION).

FOOL NEEDS TO PARTAKE OF THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST (THE SOURCE AND SUMMIT OF CHRISTIAN LIFE ON EARTH) IF THE PRIEST/S ALLOW/S FOOL.

FOOL NEEDS TO GO TO CONFESSION ON A REGULAR BASIS FOR FORGIVENESS AND FOR MORE GRACE TO BE POURED UPON HIM.

FOOL NEEDS TO GO FOR SPIRITUAL DIRECTION, ON A REGULAR BASIS, BY WISE, HOLY, COMPETENT PRIESTS.

FOOL HAS TO UNDERGO A PROCESS OF PURIFICATION : CONFESSION, SPIRITUAL DIRECTION, CONFESSION, SPIRITUAL DIRECTION, CONFESSION, SPIRITUAL DIRECTION ~ MORE GRACE ~ THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST ~ CONFESSION, SPIRITUAL DIRECTION, MORE GRACE, THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST, MORE PENANCE ~ GROWTH IN HOLINESS ~ SAINTHOOD.

THE FIRST STEP IS CONFESSION. THE GOAL IS SAINTHOOD.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.

Kevin? Your statement:

"If you continue to make this statement, then you will NEVER be saved."

The way I see things right now, that statement above is the least of my worries. What I've been trying to do is exactly this:

I'm trying to pull myself from the fires of Hell. And, things don't look so good for the poor Fool. I'm not kidding when I say that I am happy for you, Kevin.

If you look up the word "heretic", you'll find my face. If we go back in time, then yes, I'm the best Catholic there ever was.

Here's a question:

Do any members of your congregation disagree on theology or doctrine, Kevin?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

Hi James. This has been on my mind since day one. Please answer my question with a "yes" or "no". If "yes", then we both know. If "no", then never mind.

Do you remember the very first email I sent you?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

A WELL SPIRITUALLY GUIDED CATHOLIC RETREAT IN THE COUNTRY/DESERT/MOUNTAIN AMONG HOLY AND WISE PRIESTS WILL ALSO BE VERY GOOD FOR FOOL

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.

My thoughts exactly!

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

"Do any members of your congregation disagree on theology or doctrine, Kevin?"

If there are any disagreements, I am not aware of them.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

Yes, I remember, my friend.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.

Thanks, James.

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

The Catholic Church says: "ALL FOOL HAS TO DO IS TO GO TO CONFESSION AND HE WILL OBTAIN ABSOLUTION AND FORGIVENESS FOR ALL THE SINS HE HAD COMMITTED. FOOL WILL BECOME WHITE AS SNOW THOUGH HIS SINS WERE AS SCARLET."

God says: "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mark 2:7, Luke 5:21). The Catholic Church does LIE when they say a Priest can "absolve" and "forgive" sin.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

Just as you, Kevin, can bring a person to ones realization of sin and his confession and repentance, so does the priest do likewise. It isn't Kevin or the priest who forgives; it is God through His Son's propitiation on the cross. But, we are also considering the nature of the sin and the penance. Kevin, you have pointed out Scriptures. The priest will also point out Scriptures. We all need some guidance and help in understanding our sins and their impact on our Salvation. You could not have understood your sins had it not been for those men who were inspired to provide the answers.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

rod,

No man on this earth can "absolve" anyone of their sins. Who does a man think he is that can make someone do "penance" for the sins they have committed??? First, there is NO such thing as "penance" it is "repentance" and it is up to the individual to "repent" of their sins for it is the goodness of God (not man) that leads someone to repentance. (Romans 2:4).

You wrote: "We all need some guidance and help in understanding our sins and their impact on our Salvation."

We can "understand" what our sins are (without a Catholic priest) and their impact on our Salvation by READING and UNDERSTANDING and APPLYING the Word of God to our lives.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

THE ROCK ~ THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS :

Catholics confess their sins to priests because ~ as it is clearly stated in Sacred Scripture ~ God in the Person of Jesus Christ authorized the priests of His Church to hear confessions and empowered them to forgive sins in His Name. To the Apostles, the first priests of His Church, Christ said : "Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you ... Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." (John 20:21-23) Then again: "Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 18:18) In other words, Catholics confess their sins to priests because priests are God's duly authorized agents in the world, representing Him in all matters pertaining to the ways and means of attaining eternal salvation. When Catholics confess their sins to a priest they ARE, in reality, confessing their sins to God, for God hears their confessions and it is He who, in the final analysis, does the forgiving. If their confessions are not sincere, their sins are not forgiven.

Furthermore, Catholics DO confess their sins directly to God as Protestants do: Catholics are taught to make an Act of Contrition (see below) at least every night before retiring, to ask God to forgive them their sins of that day. Catholics are also taught to say this same prayer of contrition if they should have the misfortune to commit a serious sin (called "mortal sin" by Catholics). ~ Paul Whitcomb, an Ex-Protestant Minister, Now a Catholic

ACT OF CONTRITION

My God
I am sorry for my sins with all my heart.
In choosing to do wrong
and failing to do good,
I have sinned against you
whom I should love above all things.
I firmly intend, with your help,
to do penance,
to sin no more,
and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.

Our Savior Jesus Christ
suffered and died for us.
In His Name, my God, have mercy.


-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.

James,

Where is the EXAMPLE in the New Testament of a "priest" forgiving anyone of their sins??? I have repeatedly asked Catholics to provide the book, chapter and verse in the NT where this is stated and have NOT received a reply to date. Are you going to be the one that gives an EXAMPLE of HOW the Apostles "forgave" sin???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

Which part of John 20:21-23 and Matthew 18:18 did you not understand?

THE 1620 YEAR OLD (Written, Sifted, Identified, Assembled, Published, Correctly Interpreted, and Correctly Applied by the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church with the Guidance of the Most Holy Spirit), COMPLETE, MOST HOLY CATHOLIC BIBLE SAYS :

FORGIVENESS OF SINS

Confess your sins.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Ministry of reconciliation
2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Forgiveness of sins, anointing of the sick, confession.
James 5:14-16 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 08, 2003.

James,

You still have NOT provided PROOF from the Word of God how the Apostles "forgave sin". Where are your EXAMPLES of HOW the Apostles accomplished this in the NT???

There is also NO mention of a "priest" ever being able to forgive sin.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 08, 2003.

Kevin,

You still have NOT provided PROOF from the Word of God regarding ANY of your false accusations against the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church.

There is no mention of the new protestant denomination called church of Christ in the Most Holy Catholic Bible which was given to humankind by The Most Holy Catholic Church in 382 A.D.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 09, 2003.

Rod,

This is a prayer Fool can pray even now until he receives the Most Holy Eucharist in actuality very soon :

SPIRITUAL COMMUNION

+

MY JESUS

I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE PRESENT

IN THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT.

I LOVE YOU ABOVE ALL THINGS,

AND I DESIRE TO RECEIVE YOU INTO MY SOUL.

SINCE I CANNOT AT THIS MOMENT

RECEIVE YOU SACRAMENTALLY,

COME AT LEAST SPIRITUALLY INTO MY HEART.

I EMBRACE YOU AS IF YOU WERE ALREADY THERE

AND UNITE MYSELF WHOLLY TO YOU.

NEVER PERMIT ME TO BE SEPARATED FROM YOU.

+

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 09, 2003.

Thanks, James. I'll be praying.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 09, 2003.

James,

You really do not know your Bible do you???

Go back and re-read Romans 16:16.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 09, 2003.

Kevin,

You really do NOT know your Bible do you???

Go back and Re-Read the Entire Holy Catholic Bible.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.

Hi Kevin and James.

Please, Kevin forgive me, but James' comeback to you has to be the funniest comeback I've read in a long time. Please, Kevin, laugh cuz it is rather funny.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 12, 2003.

Rod,

I like the "Infinity and beyond" bit.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.

Here is another time "beyond light years".

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 15, 2003.

Rod,

LOL

As you know, Jesus' Humility is Infinite; the God who created the Universe humbled Himself to become a loaf of bread for humans to partake and get nourished.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.

rod,

You said,"I accept what the Scriptures tell me"

No you don't! You have a hard time accepting what Scripture tells you. You are against Sola Scriptura and even made a thread saying that anyone who denys traditions is a heretic.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.

Kevin,

Are you allowed to get married if you are abandoned?

"But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace." (1 Cor. 7:15 / KJV).

rod,

Was Gem a Christian?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.

The Book of John is based on Traditions and shows how Jesus' life was intermeshed with the Jewish celebrations. There is more.

Gem believed like a person believes in "Santa Claus" (not the real person). So, no, Gem was more of a casual believer.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 15, 2003.

Although I am not real recognized here, may I inject some food for thought? If all else fails, you can always do what my ex did to me, join the catholic church, PAY for an annulment forget being the christian he was, marry another catholic and feel cleansed. Sorry for the note of sarcasim, but since there are some folks here which are of the catholic faith, I ask.... Can you please tell me how an annulment can be done with my protest along with the fact that annulment means the marriage was never recognized, what of OUR sons? Are they considered not valid either? Please dont blast me, I am serious. Angry, yes, but I really would like an answer.

-- former (sezme40@hotmail.com), November 16, 2003.

The only thing that I'm almost probably more than maybe sure about is that the children of an invalid marriage are considered valid. I don't know why, but that's my understanding. It probably deals with Mark 10 allowing the children to come to Him and the fact that the children did not have a say about entering this world.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 16, 2003.

Unlike Kevin's interpretations of the Scriptures, I'm not as quick to condemn those who are divorced. There are circumstances and that tiny little verse: Mark 10:27 "And Jesus looking upon them, saith, Whith men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 16, 2003.

David,

You wrote, ""But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace." (1 Cor. 7:15 / KJV).

Please go back and re-read verse 16. Verse 15 means that if the "unbeliever" departs, they are NOT under bondage to "save" them as verse 16 points out.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 17, 2003.

That's why I'm asking. I'm not sure. But back to Gem, wasn't Gem an unbeliever that left Fool? So can Fool remarry?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 17, 2003.

You don't have to be a non-believer to leave your spouse, if one makes such an interpretation from the following Scripture:

Henry VIII's first wife, Katherine of Aragon.

Luke 18:28-30

"Then Peter said, 'What about us? We left all we had to follow you.' He said to them, 'I tell you solemnly, there is no one who has left house, wife, brothers, parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not be given repayment many times over in this present time and, in the world to come, eternal life'.

The Jerusalem Bible

And.....
Is it true that Henry VIII's first wife was given the option to divorce only if she became a nun? She refused the offer and instead remained married to Henry, even while Henry remarried to other women.

And.....
Henry declared himself higher than the pope in Christian authority.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 17, 2003.

And.....

Why didn't Kevin pull those verses from his Bible????????

I told you all that there had to be an answer!!

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 17, 2003.

David,

No

rod,

Peter WAS STILL MARRIED for Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 9:5, "Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"

Peter had a "believing wife" and Peter was ALSO an elder (bishop) in the church and an elder in the church MUST BE MARRIED (and have children) for this is EXACTLY what 1 Timothy 3:2-5 states, "A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, HAVING HIS CHILDREN IN SUBMISSION WITH ALL REVERENCE (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?)"

If a man is NOT MARRIED, he CANNOT be an elder (bishop) in the church of God it is that simple.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 18, 2003.

Kevin falsely states, "If a man is NOT MARRIED, he CANNOT be an elder (bishop) in the church of God it is that simple."

That statement only applies to Kevin's new protestantism recently sprouted.

The Highest Bishop, the Bishop of Rome, is NOT MARRIED. Did you forget what Saint Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7 ? Of course you did. Saint Paul wished that everyone was as he was ~ NOT MARRIED because he had to serve God Fully without distraction. Did you forget that Jesus Himself was NOT MARRIED ~ because he had to serve God Fully without distraction? Of course you did.

The Bishop cannot be in any predicament whether to administer Last Rites on a dying person or to assist his wife in delivering their first baby ~ and similar dilemmas such as this ~ therefore, the Most Holy Catholic Church wisely decided that it is better for Bishops Not to marry in order to serve God Fully without distraction. Hence, priests are required to make a vow of celibacy.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 20, 2003.

No, I did NOT falsely state, "If a man is NOT MARRIED, he CANNOT be an elder (bishop) in the church of God it is that simple." as James asserts.

God PLAINLY says in His holy word, "A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE," (1 Timothy 3:2).

Now James are you going to ACCUSE God of making a false statement when He said that an elder (bishop) MUST be the "husband of one wife" therefore he MUST be MARRIED???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 20, 2003.

Married men can become Deacons but not priests in the hierarchical structure of the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church.

Catholics will never accuse God of making a false statement. However, the Writer, Sifter, Identifier of the Most Holy Bible ~ The Most Holy Catholic Church ~ has The Authority on the Correct Interpretation and Correct Application of the Most Holy Catholic Bible NOT the brand-new experimental protestant denominational hysteria and entertainment.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

James wrote, "Married men can become Deacons but not priests in the hierarchical structure of the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church."

God says that deacons AND elders (bishops) MUST be married, (1 Timothy 3:2) therefore the Catholic Church CANNOT be the true church of Christ.

James wrote, "Catholics will never accuse God of making a false statement."

He just did accuse God of "making a false statement" for God PLAINLY said that elders (bishops) MUST be the "husband of one wife". Catholics CHANGE what God has ordained in His word.

James wrote, "However, the Writer, Sifter, Identifier of the Most Holy Bible ~ The Most Holy Catholic Church ~ has The Authority on the Correct Interpretation and Correct Application of the Most Holy Catholic Bible NOT the brand-new experimental protestant denominational hysteria and entertainment."

There is NO mention in the Bible of where someone else (the Catholic Church) is responsible for interpreting God's word for me let alone anyone else and I CHALLENGE anyone to PROVE anything different. If someone is willing to take up this challenge, then please provide book, chapter and verse from the NT where someone (the church) is the ONLY one who can interpret God's word.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.

Kevin.

Jesus was not married. He instructed his Apostles that the mission they had would mean having a life away from family. They were constantly on the move. Priest are simply following in the footsteps of Jesus. Also, the priest have "married" into the faith, the Church, into following Christ. Their spouse is the Church. I wish that I could follow such a path, but I am weak. I need my family. There are those who are able to become nuns and priests. They have done as Mary Magdalene did; they gave everything they had in order to follow Christ. Can you, Kevin, do such a thing? Please consider the teachings of Luke 14:26-27, Luke 18:27-30

rod...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.

rod,

You are mistaken NOT knowing the Scriptures. It does NOT matter that Jesus was not married. Jesus was NOT an elder in the church.

God PLAINLY commanded elders (bishops) to be married to a BELIEVING wife and they MUST have FAITHFUL children. (1 Tim. 3:2-5, Tit. 1:5-6). A man who is NOT married and does NOT have children CANNOT be an elder (bishop) in the church of Christ.

Catholics CHANGE the COMMANDS of God to suit their own FALSE doctrines.

God spoke WELL of the Catholic Church when He said in 1 Timothy 4:1-3, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in LATTER TIMES some will DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving HEED TO DECEIVING SPIRITS and DOCTRINES OF DEMONS, SPEAKING LIES IN HYPOCRISY, having THEIR OWN CONSCIENCE SEARED WITH A HOT IRON, FORBIDDING TO MARRY ..."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.

You, Kevin, are severely mistaken for you do NOT know the Scriptures.

It DOES matter that Jesus was NOT married. Everything Jesus was Matters. Jesus was the HEAD of The Church.

Brand-New Experimental Protestants CHANGE the CORRECT APPLICATION OF THE MOST HOLY CATHOLIC BIBLE of God to suit their own FALSE experimental doctrines.

Saint Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:38:
So then, he who marries a virgin does right, but he who does Not marry does even Better.

Saint Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:32,34
An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs ~ how he can please the Lord. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit.

KEVIN ACCUSES SAINT PAUL OF LYING.

SACRED AND INFALLIBLE :

THE ROCK ~ THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH ~

THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS :

CELIBACY OF PRIESTS

All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 19:12) Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to "the affairs of the Lord," (1 Cor 7:32) they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.

CELIBACY AND CONSECRATED LIFE

Christ proposes the evangelical counsels, in their great variety, to every disciple. The perfection of charity, to which all the faithful are called, entails for those who freely follow the call to consecrated life the obligation of practicing chastity in celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom, poverty and obedience. It is the profession of these counsels, within a permanent state of life recognized by the Church, that characterizes the life consecrated to God.

The state of consecrated life is thus one way of experiencing a "more intimate" consecration, rooted in Baptism and dedicated totally to God. In the consecrated life, Christ's faithful, moved by the Holy Spirit, propose to follow Christ more nearly, to give themselves to God who is loved above all and, pursuing the perfection of charity in the service of the Kingdom, to signify and proclaim in the Church the glory of the world to come.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 28, 2003.

james wrote, "Saint Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:38: So then, he who marries a virgin does right, but he who does Not marry does even Better."

Unfortunately for james, Paul is NOT writing concerning the qualification of elders in the church when he made this statement.

James wrote, "Saint Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:32,34 An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs ~ how he can please the Lord. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit."

Once again, Paul is NOT speaking about elders (nor their qualifications) in the church when he made this statement.

james wrote, "KEVIN ACCUSES SAINT PAUL OF LYING."

This is NOT the truth because Paul was NOT speaking of elders qualifications in the church when he made these statements.

Paul was NOT married, therefore he was NOT (and could NOT be) an elder.

One CANNOT be an elder (bishop) in the church UNLESS they are MARRIED and have CHILDREN.

This is NOT what Kevin says, this is what God says!!!

Elders are to be appointed in every church (Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5). In the New Testament, elders are also called presbyters (1 Timothy 4:14); bishops (Philippians 1:1; 1 Timothy 3:1,2); overseers (Acts 20:28; 1 Peter 5:2); pastors (Ephesians 4:11,12); and shepherds (1 Peter 5:1-4). The word "pastor" is simply another word for "shepherd." Preachers are never called pastors in the New Testament. The elders of the local congregation are the pastors (shepherds) of each local church (1 Peter 5:1-4).

QUALIFICATIONS for elders are listed in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-13. In addition to being a faithful Christian, an elder must be a man with a wife and faithful children. He cannot be a new member and be qualified. Also, there must be more than one elder serving in the local congregation. The Bible says "elders" [plural] (Acts 14:23; 20:17,18,28). These elders are to guide, guard, feed, and rule the flock of God (1 Peter 5:1-4; Acts 20:28; 1 Timothy 5:17; Hebrews 13:17).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.

Kevin makes a comment about rod: "You are mistaken NOT knowing the Scriptures."

Whew! I'm glad you didn't go posting that for the whole world to see....oh, wait a minute.....never mind.

I may not know the Scriptures, but I know how to read and understand what I read. You didn't answer my question, Kevin. But, that's alright that you didn't. You do not know the Scriptures that same as I do.

Would you consider the Apostles as not being elders of His church?

Does this mean that we should or should not follow Christ with all that we can??

rod...

...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.

Brand-new experimental protestantism would go to the extent of making these EXTREME LIES: "Paul was NOT married, therefore he was NOT (and could NOT be) an elder." "One CANNOT be an elder (bishop) in the church UNLESS they are MARRIED and have CHILDREN."

If Unmarried Paul is not an elder of The Church, then nobody is.

11 out of the 12 Apostles were not married.

Jesus was not married in order to serve and glorify God fully without any distraction. Jesus is the Highest Elder of The Church ~ the Head of the Church. Case closed.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 28, 2003.

Please see this thread: Is Divorce Allowed in the NT?

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

Rod, I think you should have used more different names instead of Gen and Gem. I couldn't remember who was who. There are lots of other suitable names. You still could have the "symbolic" meaning of the names. (Gem is the real thing, Gen the fake) Or am I mixing them up again. Why not Fool, Gem, and Diahbuttan, Princess of the Tribal folk?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

Salvation comes to those who are in Christ Jesus, through faith.

If Fool is a Christian but His unChristian wife left him--he is free.

True faith would not have allowed Gem to do what she did.

Fool is free because Gem--an unbeliever--left him.

Gen is not sinning.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 26, 2004.

Faith I agree that Fool would be free if Gem was an unbeliever, but Rod didn't specify that. I don't buy the "true faith" theory, even if I once did. The actions of Gem can be commited by an unbeliever as well as a Christian.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

"Gem" was so precious to him. And, he became a "Fool". Many people fall in love and lose their senses. "Gen" is for real--Genuine. Precious stones are difficult to find and difficult to keep. There is always someone around to win or steal precious stones away from fools. But, a genuine union lasts forever (possibly) and are not victims to pirates and tricksters. Someday those who I speak of will see; my choice in names are not just play on words. Let's call them transliterations.

-- I really (don'twant@topost.net), April 26, 2004.

Logic?

If a union was made by God, then no man can come between it. If a man does come between, it was not a union made by God, but by man.

-- Ireally (don'twant@topost.net), April 26, 2004.

Ireally,

Do you believe God predestines (for lack of a better word) certain people to be together? Maybe I should ask instead, does God create one person specifically for another, and should we abstain from marriage until we find that one person God intended? Obviously if he did have someone in mind, it would be best to wait until that person. Personally, I don't believe in soul mates. I do believe in soul ties. Your "soul mate" should be whoever you marry, not the other way around. A soul tie is formed during sexual experiences--the two become one flesh. I think that is what is meant by "what God has put together, let no man break apart." There is divine work in marriage, but I don't think God specifically tells someone who to marry. Instead, there are probably multiple people who would each make a suitable partner, and each offers something unique in a relationship.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

Luke, I agree. If there were such a thing as "soul mates" ie. only one person for everyone, that would be only another excuse that people would use to justify divorce and unfaithfulness to their spouse. These should not be so justified. Instead, we should all remain faithful to our vows before God.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

Look out the important figures of the Old Testament and the many wives they had. Look at the numbers of men and women in this world. Look at the situations couple find themselves in that causes them to be attracted to one another. Look at Adam and Eve who had only themselves to join as one. Look at the heart of the woman who's nature is to cling to one man and the man who's nature is to repell the idea of marriage. Look at the man who truly finds love in the woman he cannot imagine living without. Look at the broken hearts of many who have loved and lost and choose to live alone. The Church does not make the marriage; the man and the woman become one because that is how things happen.

-- Ireally (don'twant@topost.net), April 26, 2004.

The man whose love is in God, first, and the woman whose love is in God, first, are those who are meant for each other. The wise person will do well in seeking out those who put God's teachings first. This does not mean that their marriage would be without hardships and moments of discorse. It does mean that solutions will present themselves because of God's teachings and the couples acceptance for God as their guidance. The failed marriage may have been a result of the couple's ignorance of God's guidance.

-- Ireally (don'twant@topost.net), April 26, 2004.

Another scenario:

Suzanne marries Rick at 18 because she is pregnant with his child and needs stability. Neither one is saved. She does not love him, but she needs someone to provide for now. "I can always divorce him later," she says to herself.

After many years of unhappy marriage life, Suzanne becomes a Christian. The marriage is still bad though. Sometimes Rick teases her about her faith; he definitely resents her beliefs. He takes no responsibility for their daughter, and is horrible to Suzanne.

Suzanne still does not love him, and so they fight. Suzanne wants out of the marriage, but she feels that she cannot just leave unless Rick cheats on her. Suzanne tries for a few years of being horrible to Rick, hoping that he will look for love some other place. But after a while, she gives that up.

Suzanne expresses to Rick that she wants a divorce. "I do not love you." She doesn't get a divorce, instead, Rick takes it upon himself to make Suzanne love him by doing good things. He keeps trying, but this doesn't change Suzanne's heart.

Rick never becomes a Christian

She appreciates him treating her kindly now, and he is a good person, but she still regrets the marriage, and now feels like the bad person for hurting him.

She tells this to Rick one day

Finally it dawns on Rick that Suzanne won't ever love him as a husband and wife should. He finally let's Suzanne out of the marriage.

Can Suzanne remarry?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 27, 2004.

She cannot "remarry" because she was never validly married in the first place. Being pregnant and needing stability are not valid grounds for entering into a Christian marriage. What God has joined no man may separate; but it is obvious that God had nothing to do with the formation of this union. Therefore it was null from its inception. Therefore, she cannot "remarry"; but she can marry.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 27, 2004.

What if Rick wants to stay together, but Suzanne divorces him anyway?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 30, 2004.

i too am in a similar situation and my gut feeling keeps telling me i cant live like this i feel very married to my ex even though its been 4 years.and i too remarried.i think part of me doesnt want to go back or see the truth the other part is scared.pray and pray for others in the situations if more people prayed and turned things around divorce in this nation would drop.

-- just me (princessforlife0129@yahoo.com), October 30, 2004.

You still feel married to your ex? I'm curious why you left. In the example I posted, I had in mind someone who never felt *married* to her husband. She never loved him

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 31, 2004.