There is much speculation about the soon to appear Document on the Liturgy. By the way, I have some questions concerning this subject:

-- In the OT what instruments were used in the liturgy of the Temple?

-- In the Apostolic times were any intruments used in the Eucharistic celebrations?

-- In the first centuries what instruments were in use in the Liturgy?

-- When did the tubular organ come into use ?

-- Did the Church ever forbid the use of other instruments at Mass besides the organ?

-- What about the famous "Masses": Mozart, Verdi, etc. A full orchestra was used. Was that permitted or was it an abuse?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), October 23, 2003

Answers

thanks for your answers.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), October 23, 2003.

This should help.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), October 23, 2003.

Wow .

St. Pius X was a man who said what he meant, and meant what he said.

"The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ."

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), October 23, 2003.

yes, jake, but being written in 1903, i strongly doubt that those are the newest regulations. FURTHER, those regulations contradict those of set by previous popes, so maybe SSPXers arent as traditional after all.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 23, 2003.

i strongly doubt that those are the newest regulations

Didn't say they were, just that St. Pius X was a man who said what he meant, and meant what he said. You can apply that to everything he ever wrote as Pope.

It was clear, concise, and exact.

It wasn't open to a vote.

There was no discussion.

A committee didn't have to be convened to study the question.

It didn't come from some beureaucrat.

No one waited around for the USCCB reactionary statement.

We need such a Pope.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), October 23, 2003.

We're obviously still debating.

Music is largely cultural. If any music is played in praise and worship, it's more than acceptable.

We do not need an autocratic, monarchical Pope.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), October 23, 2003.

That's true, John P.

I cannot imagine King david not worshipping God without a flute, a cymbal, or a lyre. There will be no book psalms in the Bible.

Worst, David almost naked on the streets of Jerusalem synging and dancing for God. What a spectacle! Pope Pius .....could have thrown him into....

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), October 23, 2003.

We're obviously still debating.

Speak for yourself.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), October 23, 2003.

Any musical instrument can be a noisy mess. It all depends on the musician. An excellent musician can make the bagpipes sound heavenly....ok, maybe not the bagpipes. hee..hee..

The tympani (drum) is a pitched instrument. I would bet that the untrained ear would not even realize that the tympani was being played, unless the listener sees it played. We do notice a percussion instrument during the mass. The bells/tree bells are played during the mass to signify the presence of the Holy Spirit (somebody please correct me on the significance of the bell ringing).

rod rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 23, 2003.

In my younger days with the Church, I was permitted to compose for and conduct a small ensemble consisting of woodwinds and brass instruments. Midnight Mass was a very special mass and still is.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 23, 2003.

We have had harmonica, and a trumpet (though not at the same Mass) and a group playing bagpipes--the priest engaged them as a special treat. Also, at one parish, the priest presses a remote and the keyboard plays the music (this was at 5pm Saturday Vigil Mass--I assume they had a live keyboardist at 9:30 Sundays).

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 23, 2003.

I don't see anything wrong with having other musical instruments in church. I mean, why not, is the organ the only instrument that can be used to give praise to God?

We must be careful though not to turn the Mass into a protestant service or a concert. The music should only be used to highten people's ability to worship God and to make them more aware of the significance of what is going on. What shouldn't happen is that people are paying more attention to the music and not the real center of the Mass, the Eucharist.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), October 24, 2003.

Paul H, you speculated that the 1903 discipline was no longer in effect. You are correct. The following is the current discipline, in general form [open to specific local adaptations], from the Vatican's "Musicam sacram" ("Sacred Music") of 1967.
JFG

VI. Sacred Instrumental Music

62. Musical instruments can be very useful in sacred celebrations, whether they accompany the singing or whether they are played as solo instruments.

"The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lift up men's minds to God and higher things.

"The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful." [quoted from Vatican II]

63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.

Any musical instrument permitted in divine worship should be used in such a way that it meets the needs of the liturgical celebration, and is in the interests both of the beauty of worship and the edification of the faithful.

64. The use of musical instruments to accompany the singing can act as a support to the voices, render participation easier, and achieve a deeper union in the assembly. However, their sound should not so overwhelm the voices that it is difficult to make out the text; and when some part is proclaimed aloud by the priest or a minister by virtue of his role, they should be silent.

65. In sung or said Masses, the organ, or other instrument legitimately admitted, can be used to accompany the singing of the choir and the people; it can also be played solo at the beginning before the priest reaches the altar, at the Offertory, at the Communion, and at the end of Mass. The same rule, with the necessary adaptations, can be applied to other sacred celebrations.

66. The playing of these same instruments as solos is not permitted in Advent, Lent, during the Sacred Triduum and in the Offices and Masses of the Dead.

67. It is highly desirable that organists and other musicians should not only possess the skill to play properly the instrument entrusted to them: they should also enter into and be thoroughly aware of the spirit of the liturgy, so that even when playing ex tempore, they will enrich the sacred celebration according to the true nature of each of its parts, and encourage the participation of the faithful.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 24, 2003.

Enrique, you asked: "In the OT what instruments were used in the liturgy of the Temple?"
Perhaps this will provide an answer.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 24, 2003.

Enrique, I found the following at www.cin.org (Catholic Information Network), posted by Keith Branson. (To read about him and his qualifications to expound on these matters, click here.) His essay, below, has answers to some of your questions.
JFG

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Music in antiquity was always an improvisatory affair. The music theory of the time was radically different from Gregorian Chant (that system originated around the 8th-9th centuries): melodies were made of groupings of short melodic figures and strung together like stringing a necklace. There was no written music until the first lineless neumes appeared. Written organ music appeared first in the 14th century.

The ancient church had a prohibition of instrumental music, which remains in force in the Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic churches today. The organ was probably first used during processions (with the Emperor). When it began to be used at liturgy, it was used before, after and perhaps at times such as the Elevation. The organ's role in the performance of organum and early polyphony may have been to provide drones or the chant melody in slow note values, however, there is nothing in the manuscripts that call for any line to be performed instrumentally.

The organ wasn't used to accompany congregational singing, partly because by the time the organ was common congregational singing had died in the Western church; the monks did all the singing. As the organ became an integral part of the liturgy, it took on a role of alternation (beginning with the first recorded keyboard music in 1325) with the choir: the schola would sing one verse of a hymn, or mass movement and the organ would play a short piece (frequently improvised) that took the place of the alternate verses. This became one of the main liturgical use of the organ in Catholic circles, in all countries, until Vatican II. The improvisation that accompanied the Low Mass was a post-Tridentine development. Catholic choirs generally sang unaccompanyied until the Baroque era, and then organ accompanyiment was sporadic, particularly when the a cappella tradition developed in Palestrina was the model in many places (which meant no accompaniment)..

The organ came to be used in Protestant circles only in Lutheran and Anglican traditions. Calvinist (Reformed) traditions forbade instrumental music until 1795. Solo organ music was written on various hymn melodies almost as the hymns were written and used as introductions to the hymns themselves as well as pieces in their own right. One theory is the chorales in Bach's collection the _Orgelbuchlein_, may have taken the place of congregational singing in the ducal chapel he played at the time of their composition (from Robert Clark's introduction to his _Orgelbuchlein_ edition). We're not sure when the organ became primary accompanyiment for congregational singing, but it was probably the 18th century (the chorales may have been sung unaccompanied in Bach's day). Organs accompanied choirs (continuo style, much like reading a lead sheet today, except from the bottom up) from the beginning of the Reformation (which wasn't to far from the beginning of the Baroque--a hundred years), although the a cappella tradition was still important even in Germany (they even did Palestrina in Lutheran churches!).

The pattern we know of where the organ provides the support for congregational singing probably comes from no earlier than the 17th century, and then only in German and English liturgical Protestant traditions. Accompanying Catholic congregations from the organ wasn't common until the 20th century, when the congregations started singing again.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 24, 2003.

Dear John: You, as always, have been most helpful. Thank you very much.

All the qustions I posted come from my natural inclination to know more about Our Church. I've often read articles for or against Mariachi music at Mass and other related subjects, such as the use of electronic instruments: electronic guitars, organ, drums and the like. Some times I feel that the opinions exrpessed are more or less according to personal feelings of the writer and that very often they have no backing whatsoever on the Church documents.

With all the posts that have been sent so far on this forum I'm getting a clearer picture about this subject.

Thnks again. And may the Lord bless you abundantly.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), October 25, 2003.

The ancient church had a prohibition of instrumental music

Today it is difficult to find places where there isn't some electronic noise going on. Radio (and TV, internet, CDs) is piping intoxicating sounds everywhere, all the time. I am sure this same ubiquitousness of musical entertainment was found in the culture 2000 years ago. Thus the ancient prohibition of liturgical music is well understood. And since we find ourselves in a neo-paganism of similar musical indulgence perhaps we would do good to heed the ancient Church and minimize music in the mass and at home.

Personally I like an accompanist organ player during mass singing when there is no choir and singing participation is lame in general. I do not like an organist who is not an accompanist. The general organ player adds lots of fancy notes and colorful sounds making it harder to sing as a community, to hear one another sing. It is a distraction. But when the leader of the singing is a tone-deaf priest and the congregation is weak in participation of singing than I thank God for an accompanist organ player.

At home I have found it profitable to turn off radios, TVs and computers permanently (I type this from the library). Home is a kind of sanctuary and we may have less watchful eyes on us at home than when in public and thus are tempted more at home to be distacted. Too much noise keeps us from focusing on scripture, prayer, making Holy Hours, doing good deeds. The radio is like La La land to me. I mentally check out while it is on. Music can very easily be a plug- in-drug, just like TV is, distracting us from our duty to God.

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), October 25, 2003.

Hello, Enrique.
I'm glad that what I posted was helpful to you.
This morning, I added a message addressed to you on this thread.
Thanks again.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), October 25, 2003.