Gay priests?

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A friend of mine has a priest who is openly homosexual. How can the Church allow someone to remain in the priesthood who is clearly violating God's law?

-- Chris (cmb94@hotmail.com), October 22, 2003

Answers

One the one hand, all priests violate God's law. All priests are sinners, just like other people. However, a priest who is living in a way which brings public scandal upon himself, and by implication upon the Church should obviously be disciplined. The sins of a priest, in and of themselves, are not a reflection upon the Church, much as some would like to suggest otherwise. However, the failure of the local bishop to take decisive action in such cases is a scandal in and of itself, again not reflecting upon the Church at large, but certainly reflecting upon the local bishop. And others will take surely advantage of such a situation to imply that it is representative of Catholicism and the Catholic Church at large.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 22, 2003.

Paul, this is indeed an embarrasing situation, but what are our options? We must loyally obey the bishop, or we will become schmastics.

-- Mickey (Manhattanmike55@yhoo.com), October 22, 2003.

I never thought this would enter the catholic church. All priests are human and make mistakes, but how could someone who had several years of training and knowledge of God and the bible, do what is utterly condemned in the bible, in the old and new testament? Still I am afraid for the bishop in charge more than this one priest. I don't want to believe that this is a catholic priest we are talking about. I sincerely hope that it is not. I have heard that there is some "episcopal" church which is split over homosexual issue, but I they are obviously not catholic. It is impossible to happen in the catholic church. Isnt it?

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), October 22, 2003.

There is a difference between someone who claims to have homosexual attractions but who lives a celibate life of grace (including zero fantasies and zero masturbation), and someone who claims that since they are tempted by these attractions, it's hunky dory to "go with the urges" whenever and however they errupt.

The former could technically be ordained, and I don't doubt many have been. However it's a highly risky thing to do, especially as there are many reasons and studies and evidence out there that such tendencies are the effect of other serious mental illnesses or trauma which need therapeutic intervention.

It's an outright lie that "only" homosexual men are sensitive or have some special insight or charism that makes them kinder, gentler men. But if they are celibate and follow the Church's moral and doctrinal teaching...they can be half-way decent shepherds - always running a risk of personal implosion and public scandal, but possibly sustained by God's grace and mercy - to say nothing of our prayers.

Some diocesan seminaries in the 1970s to mid 1990's prided themselves with being so cool and so hip that they allowed men in who were self- consciously homosexually oriented. But only a few of these seminaries (chiefly through theologians and counselors) taught them to "go with" their urges and actively pursue the gay life style as though that was OK with Catholic Christian sexual ethics. One wonders how such "theologians" dealt with heterosexual sexual promiscuity...or not.

But the latter - an openly gay priest (who therefore is sexually active) IS INDEED a scandal. DITTO for a sexually active heterosexually oriented priest! The key factor being: a man who willfully breaks his vow of celibacy, willfully ignores Catholic sexual ethics, and does so publicly and repeatedly.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 22, 2003.


If the priest indeed is Roman Catholic, not "Anglican Catholic" or some other "catholic", and is living openly as a homosexual -- He is violating his vows.

I am the first to defend parish priests, a most holy group of men. And I think priests should have the full option to marry.

But, if a man does take vows, he should live them.

Call the Bishop!!!!

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), October 22, 2003.



Jmj
Hello, Chris.

You wrote: "A friend of mine has a priest who is openly homosexual. How can the Church allow someone to remain in the priesthood who is clearly violating God's law?"

But you didn't give us any more descriptive information. I'm not saying that we need lurid details, but just something more so that we can judge whether or not your phrase, "openly homosexual" is accurate or not. Instead of asking you to respond with any details, I'll just try a couple of hypotheticals ...

1. If this priest merely has mannerisms or speech patterns that seem a bit effeminate, that is not being "openly homosexual." In such a case, you don't have a right or duty to do anything, since the priest should be presumed to be chaste (and he may be a heterosexual who accidentally picked up an unfortunate habit or two).

2. But if any of the following is true, your friend has a duty to confront the priest and tell him that he must stop his sinning ... and then your friend must contact the bishop about it, if the priest continues to sin ... and then he must contact the local papal ambassador or the Vatican about it if the bishop refuses to act:

..... a. If this priest is pushing the acceptance of the "gay lifestyle," either in private conversations or in his preaching, or
..... b. If this priest is sharing his rectory with a man who is not a priest, and there is no doubt that they are being unchaste together, or
..... c. If this priest has been seen in perverted bars, bathhouses, or theatres, or
..... d. If this priest has been found (e.g., by a housekeeper) to have a stash of printed or online pornography.
..... e. [other possibilities to be mentioned by subsequent posters]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 22, 2003.


[I just want to clarify that, in item 2.c., I'm not talking about the case of a priest who may have gone to a den of iniquity to try to convince the patrons to give up their sins. I'm talking about someone who went to such a place and took part in improper activities.]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 22, 2003.

My opinion...If a priest simply admits to being gay, but does not participate in the lifestyle and is celebate. I don't see how this would be a problem. Heterosexuals are not necessarily acting out all the time. Most heterosexual priest remain celebate. His admission to his orientation may in fact be helpful to his ministry to others who are homosexual. On the other hand, if he physically acts on his orientation, that would be the same as a heterosexual priest breaking his vows of celebacy and the consequences would be the same and just as serious.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), October 22, 2003.

What kind of sceening process is used by the bishops? It is either defective, or wilfully deliberate.

-- Mickey (Manhattanmike@Yhoo.com), October 23, 2003.

I'm not sure how a screening of this could ever be handled using a formula. I'm no expert, but I believe the Church views homosexuality as "disordered." Some fundamentalist christian groups view it as a "willfully deliberate" abomination, and many homosexuals believe it is "natural."

I believe... (if I'm right about the Church saying that its "disordered,")... that it leaves some room for the possibility, (and I know many do not believe this is possible)... that homosexuality is not a choice. I think that the idea of it being a "choice," makes it much easier to call a sin in itself. I don't think the Church has specifically done this. ( I could be wrong,...I don't know where to look it up.) A priest who is homosextual is not necessarily sinful or dangerous if he is simply being a priest. Jim

-- JIm Furst (furst@flash.net), October 23, 2003.



Jim,

What you say might make sense to you, but a gay man is NOT allowed to be ordained a Catholic Priest.[I know there have been mistakes with this].

-- - (David@excite.com), October 23, 2003.


David-excite, you are correct.

It is now known, from a document of the early 1960s (from Blessed Pope John XXIII's curia to the world's bishops), that the Church did not want men with a Same-Sex Disorder to be ordained or to live in religious communities. Unfortunately, it seems that this document was misunderstood by bishops or forgotten (or not made known to their successors) over the course of the years -- until it was found and made public last year. So, in the meantime, there was a period of perhaps three decades during which many ineligible men were not screened out. Now the Church is suffering much because of this.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 24, 2003.


St. Paul and the bible, did not believe that it was "natural"

-- Soapy (9999@444.com), October 24, 2003.

Most Christans think Homosexuality is a disorder. Not nessisarily a Chpoice as most v eiw it. Few, if any, are of the beelif that oen wakes up on emorning, and after breakfast decides " You know, I think I will be GAy." But, the tradgedy is that most peopel these days are fed the lies by the general media and public groups, his line of lies reads as follows.

Homosexuality is natural, anf the oreintation is unchangable. Its genetic, and harmful to attempt to reverse it. Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. Homosexuals can live healthy, happy, priductive lives and their sexual orentation does nto interfere, nor is it a symptom of larger causes. All who think otherwise are narroew minded, Bgoted, or Homophobic, otherwise they are ignorant of the facts.

The above, of course, is generlly the liost that mosy hear on this now widely publicised issue. All of its a lie. Although the press seems to relish teling stories of how reparative therapy filed, and show Homosexuals in the light of Heroes. they never interveiw the Ex Gays so much, or if they do they try to "Dig up the dirt" on them. Or they rpetend no oen ever changes. ( This brigns the interesting phoenomenon to mind, if a man who was streight his whoel life decides he's Gay, he has "Discovered his true identity." If, on te other hand, a gat man goes streight, he is either " Livign in denial." Or else he " IS bi", or " Was never gay to begin with.)

It's a well documented fact, and I emn FACT , that 60% of men who are Homosexual AND who enter therapy for reasons NOT RELATED TO THIR SEXUALITY. ( I will repeat. NOT RELATED TO THEIR SEXUALITY.) will, after successfully endign the neurosis, feel less attracted to other men, and eventually most loose interst in other men altogather. Homosedxuality has been known for years to be caused by a form of depression, anxeity, or other disorder, and although it feels like it cant be changed, so does depression, yet many overcome both routinely.

Other lies that are beelivesd these days woudl be the concvept as toufched on above, that most men arent sensative, caring, and nurturing. Those are feminien traits. But a Gay man may have them, or be soft spoken and well read.

The TSeryotype is that a Gay man will lvoe fashion, the arts, culture, and be in touch with his feeligns and those of others. Streight men like hard action films, sports, and arent all that intuned. For this reason I ahve been called and thought of as Gay. That and for my slight statue, thin body, and high pitched voice. ( All of the latter beign geentic.) However I am not Gay.

Likewise, many Gay Men's ees woudl frost over shoudl I mention Straus, or the works of Mendleson, or the writings of Fransis Bacon...

Another problem is that Homosexuals wish acceptance by claimign to be the victims, and insoem cases they are, btu in many theu are pushign it.

Many claim that beign Gay is Not a sin, as its gnetic, which is an outright lie. Others claim that no Biblical passages condemn Homosexuality. They claim tat ethose passages used by Christaisn to support stand agaisnt Homosexuality are out of context, and relaly refer to temple prostitution, and not to loving, monogomous same sex couples. This, of course, is a lie as well.

Now, has the Catholic Church ordained Homoseuxals that support the open acceptance of Homosexuals? Yes. Has it doen so diliberatly ? No. After all, we are but fallable creatures, and some rotten apples will doubtless enter in. Catholic preists have been ordiaend that are murderers, rapitst, liars, gamblers, fornicators, drunkards, ect... as have protestant ministers. Not as much because they are suported in theseactiosn but because those who ordian them know not these matters beforehand, thus mistakes happen.

However, if the man has merely homosexual attractiosn that he suffers with, and is still celebate, then there is little scandal, unless he obsesses over them.

-- ZAROVE (zaroff3@juno.com), October 25, 2003.


I agree.

Homosexuality is not a choice. I assume it's genetic, but I'm not fully sure.

If the priest is openly practicing homosexuality, then he is violating his vows of chastity, and shouldn't be a priest.

If the priest has told his congregation this, but does NOT practice any form of sexuality, then he is not violating his vows. The same would be said of a heterosexual priest.

Being homosexual does NOT make you a horrible priest.

The molestors were of both sexualities, and it is thoroughly unfair to blame it on the homosexual priests.

If he's a good priest, then he's better than many other priests, and it would be bad to take the good priest from the rotation.

Good homosexual priests increase tolerance.

Do you remember the case a year ago about the boy who was beaten ALMOST TO DEATH because a heterosexual boy thought he was checking him out in a locker room? Are we that bad a society? Many assumed it was an isolated incident. If it were not for the laws, would it?

We say that we disapprove of their lifestyle, but we tolerate it, and still love them as Catholics. Can we possibly accept them for what they are, as they accept us for the same?

There are two issues here, homosexuality itself and the priest's admission of such.

Please don't intertwine them. They are two separate strands of topic.

-- Rosie (madamerosie@hotmail.com), October 27, 2003.



Homosecxuality isntg genetic. Its a Psucological disorer and its been priven as such for over 60 years. Its just thought of as Genetic so as to bypass the morlaity of it. If its geenetic then its not morally wrong, as its like race, soemthign oen cannot help. Alas, may people who are Fay leave the lifestyle, and are stigmatised as either dilusional, bisexual, or liars.

No, its not genetic, its not a choiced like most popel think, but its no where near genetic.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 27, 2003.


It is condemned because it is unnatural, and a very evil sin as specified in the old and new testament. It begins as a psychological disorder, where they need help. It becomes a great sin when they believe that it is a right thing to do and not get help, and it gets worse when people support them instead of helping them. They need professional help to be normal again. It is against nature, and against the will of God. I wonder how this part in the bible became invisible in the case of this priest. It is grave evil when a person wants to embrace it, but people who try not to help them but let them stay like that are no better. I personally know people who have been homosexual who become so as children, but later asked for help and become normal, and lives very happy normal family lives. So please don't do more wrong by trying to justify it. Try to help them get back to normal.

-- Abraham T (Lijothengil@yahoo.com), October 27, 2003.

The irony is this. Peopel say that we have no right tellign gays they cant be fay, and they shoudl do wht makes them happy. Aside frm the spuriosu logic ( I mean relaly, what if it really mad eme happy to hide int he park and kill people?) it is a common fallacy these days to think of people who wan tto help Homosexuals change are narroew minded and care not for their happiness. I have gay friends and aquanntences, and they arent relaly all that ahppy, all one need do is look beneith the surface.The trouble is, of course, few are happy these days. So they blend in...

Next to Wholesomness, depravity is clearly in edivence. Our society is by and large depraved, that is why it mocks and ridicules the "LEave it to beaver" Families, and claims they do nto exist.

On Homosexuality, the theiry is that they are happy as gays, and woudl be misyrabel if they tried to pretend to be streight. The assumption is based on the assumption that Sexual orentation cannot be changed. The "It's genetic " argument. This states that nature intended them to be Gay, thus tryign to be different woudl cause psycological stress. In reality however, more people are happier in a celebate life than in a promiscuous one. Oh sure, they have success in gettign to bed many people, but it never ends, they are ocnsumed by their lust, and unfulfilled EXCEPT in the bed with a partner. Whereas those who have no sexual relatiosn unless wed can do other things ot help give their life maning, those who seek gratification sexually will find none, just a quick fix. Generally, however, it is this sort of conduct, that of sexual impurity, that i permeating our culture, and as a result, society wishes to support Homosexuals, especially as a mask for theiur own shortcomings, shortcomings they claim are normal, and healthy. They are misurable, and pretendign to be happy, so they will support Gays to be misurable but pretendign to be happy.

It is a lie that says that peopel who try to change will fail and end up miurable unles they embrace their homosexual identity, but tis oen that fits with modern society, we are after all a society of victims.we annt to knock down the first moral barrier we see, then, once it is down and the horribel consequences upon us, we seek to absolve ourselves not of our sins, but out liability to clean up our own mess.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 28, 2003.


Chris

The reason why we see so much unfaithfulness and rebelious acts in the house of God is because the HOLY SPIRIT is no longer in any of the churches. Today we see all of the signs of the Great tribulations, which is the last event before Christ returns!

God's judgement begins in the churches and then it will transition to judgement day. God is using Satan and all his demons disguised as "angels of light." These are false phrophets and teachers, such as priests and pastors who look holy on the outside but are dead and currupted in the inside.

Check out these scriptures:

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining [God restrains Satan], that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[Holy Spirit] who now restrains will do so until He[Holy Spirit] is taken out of the mist.

8 And then the lawless one[Satan] will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish,

because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

1 Peter 4:17 "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? "

2 Corinthians 11:"13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. "

God gives us clues on the Great tribulations and its awful impact upon the end time churches and congregations. This is set forth by the language of Matthew 24:15, 16. There God declares:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains."

These verses unquestionably are concerned with the Great Tribulation. Verse 21 assures us that this is so: we read:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." However, in verse 15, God takes us into the Book of Daniel to learn more about the Great Tribulation period. In the Book of Daniel, we find further proof that the Great Tribulation is at the end of time. This is taught by Daniel 12:8-10:

"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

Two verses in the Book of Daniel identify with these phrases. The first is Daniel 11:31, where we read: "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

In Daniel 11:31 the Bible is prophesying concerning a time when the sanctuary of strength would be polluted, and the daily would be taken away, replaced by the abomination of desolation. We know that the sanctuary of strength must be where God is worshiped. It is here that the daily sacrifices and the daily candlesticks are being utilized in service to God. The only place that can be in view is the temple. But according to this verse at some future date the worship of God would be replaced by the abomination of desolation.

Matthew 24:15 instructs us that this dreadful event must identify with the Great Tribulation that comes just before the end of the world. In Daniel 12:11 we read: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

WE MUST GET OUT OF THE CHURCHES BEFORE GOD'S WRATH FALLS UPON YOU!

GOD BLESS!!!!!!!



-- One On the HOUSETOP! (just_passing_thru@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.


LTNS. Sorry, I've been super super busy with school and singing. I agree with Rosie.

Here is a link (CNN) http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/20/sexuality.brain.reut/index.html

-- OperaDivaCecilia (me@whereever.com), October 28, 2003.


Here's a better link: CourageRC

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), October 29, 2003.

Can we possibly accept them for what they are

not as long as who they are includes an active gay lifestyle. as long as it does you have an explicit moral duty to help them change their acting on a grave sinful temptation. love the person, help the person, dont accept their sins as being part of who are what they are. acceptance of sin in others is only another form of moral relativity

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 29, 2003.


Last I checked, Preists who destpry families aren't accepted either.

As to the link tot he study online, its a popular press one, that flows nicely withthe political agenda. Sorry to say it, but the whole " Born Gay so its OK" Argument is less scietific and more political, disguised as sicnce.

Real Science says that Homosexuals CAN and DO change their oreintation, it has happened, its hard but it has happened.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 29, 2003.


karl,

So why is it that we cannot accept practicing gay priests but we can accept and encourage priests who destroy families? Karl

youre anti catholic position on tribunals behooves all logic. baffling really. how in the world do you ever consider yourself catholic? your comment is not worth the answer im giving it, and not worth the consideration of ACTUALLY responding to it.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 30, 2003.


CHRIS

THE CHURCHES HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM and GOMORRAH!!!!!

IF WE CAN HEAR JESUS TALK TODAY, HE WOULD BE SAYING:

" Jeremiah 23:14: Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem: They commit adultery and walk in lies; They also strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one turns back from his wickedness. All of them are like Sodom to Me, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah"

MAY GOD GIVE YOU EYES TO SEE! GOD BLESS!!!

-- One On the HOUSETOP! (just_passing_thru@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.


how can you judge or rebuke homosexuality when there are so many molestors and sexual offenders within the churches.

-- an (anon@yahoo.com), November 02, 2003.

First of all, there are not "so many" sexual offenders in the Church. Fewer than 1% of priests have even been accused of any impropriety, and only a small percentage of that 1% have actually been convicted on any wrongdoing.

Secondly, your question makes no sense at all. If there were a lot of arsonists or rapists or murderers "in the Church", does that mean we couldn't judge or rebuke arson or rape or murder?? Did you think at all before you spoke? If there are a lot of sinners in the Church, does that mean the Church can't rebuke sin? Or is it all the more reason why the Church must do so?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 02, 2003.


The context for proscriptions against homosexuality are as follows: In the New Testament St Puul condemning debauchery as seen in Roman Empire ( which inlcuded homosexual activity )

and in the Old Testament Leviticus outlining behaviors and customs including the laws of Kosher.

Jesus never says a word about homosexuals yet he clearly condemns divorce.

The Church's belief that any sexual relationship must occur in marriage prevents homosexuals from acting on their orientation according to the Church's teaching.

The Ratzinger documents saying homosexuality is " intrinsically disordered" are actually inconcistent with traditional teaching.

The orientation is neutral-how one deals with the orientation may or may not be sinful. By objective standard the Church urges homosexual activity is sinful, but if the homosexual in his consience believes otherwise- this is where the conundrum occurs.

This ia also where so-called righteous Catholics,people judging others, have done great harm to the actual persons who are gay by being mean spirited, intolerant and actually discriminating against them -much to the chagrin of our Lord Jesus. This mean spiritedness, intolerance and discrimantion extends even to those who are homosexual who live within the Church's behavior proscriptions.

The scandal of homosexuality is the Church's treatment of homosexuals- especially those who do live celibate and Catoilic lives.

But the Church's teaching is more based upon the sacred nature of sexuality and its connection to marriage than to outtright condemnation of homosexuality.

The actual concept of homosexuality is relatively recent both linguistically as well as inthe fields of psychology and medicine.

I hope this has ben helpful.

prayerfully yours

David

-- david facciolo (djjf4law@aol.com), November 05, 2003.


As one who was forced out of a Catholic seminary because of it's dominant homosexual culture, I can tell you that active homosexuality is a much bigger problem than what you suspect. You don't know what it's like to have to been assaulted so many times that you had to blockade your door each night in an attempt to keep out the rapists. If you're a heterosexually oriented person and you stand up for the truth of scripture, you are marked. The assaults, both verbal and physical, never end until you leave. I know this isn't happening in all seminaries, but there are entire seminaries that need to be shut down, NOW.

-- anon (no@mail.com), November 05, 2003.

"The context for proscriptions against homosexuality are as follows: In the New Testament St Paul condemning debauchery as seen in Roman Empire ( which inlcuded homosexual activity )"

A: The context for proscriptions against homosexual acts is the same as for any form of immorality - the infallible teaching of God's Church, which cannot err when authoritatively teaching on matters of faith and morals. It is because this was the teaching of the Christian Church that Paul wrote it in his letters. It wasn't a new idea that occurred to him personally. The principle scriptural references to this Christian moral doctrine are:

1 Cor 6:9, in which homosexuals are listed along with fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, and other serious sinners as being unable to inherit the kingdom of God - in other words to receive salvation.

1 Tim 1:9-10, where homosexuals are listed along with liars, perjurers, murderers, the unholy and profane, as examples of unrighteous people who are acting contrary to sound teaching. Note that Paul refers to "sound teaching" which is already firmly in place. He isn't presenting something new here.

Obviously these passages refer to homosexual acts, not homosexual tendencies. All of the listed sins are chosen actions. A tendency toward adultery, or fornication, or homosexual acts, or idolatry, or anything else is not sin, unless such tendency is acted upon, or at least accepted and encouraged.

"Jesus never says a word about homosexuals yet he clearly condemns divorce"

A: The fact that the apostles clearly taught against both homosexual acts and adultery is evidence that Jesus did indeed teach against both. Jesus was the source of the apostles' teaching. They didn't make it up as they went along. They preached only what they had received from Him.

"The Church's belief that any sexual relationship must occur in marriage prevents homosexuals from acting on their orientation according to the Church's teaching. The Ratzinger documents saying homosexuality is " intrinsically disordered" are actually inconcistent with traditional teaching."

A: It is erroneous to think of homosexual acts as simply a form of fornication. Heterosexual intercourse is not intrinsically disordered or innately immoral. Homosexual acts are. An innately immoral act cannot be made morally acceptable by any circumstances. Heterosexual sex is not only acceptable, but good and holy in the proper circumstances. Homosexual acts are an intrisically disordered violation of the natural law, and cannot be morally acceptable in any circumstances. This innate characteristic of homosexual acts goes beyond the obvious fact that marriage between persons of the same sex is impossible.

"The orientation is neutral-how one deals with the orientation may or may not be sinful. By objective standard the Church urges homosexual activity is sinful, but if the homosexual in his consience believes otherwise- this is where the conundrum occurs"

A: Any time there is a conflict between individual conscience and objective truth, the problem lies with an improperly formed conscience. Conscience isn't somthing we are born with. It is something that is formed over time; and if we do not take personal responsibility for actively forming our consciences in accord with the objective truth, then we cannot hide behind "following our conscience" as an excuse for our subsequent, and inevitable, commission of immoral acts. That's like telling a police officer you didn't know a red light means stop. If you are driving a car, it is your responsibility to know, and if you just haven't bothered to learn the truth, then ignorance of the law is no excuse.

"This is also where so-called righteous Catholics, people judging others, have done great harm to the actual persons who are gay by being mean spirited, intolerant and actually discriminating against them -much to the chagrin of our Lord Jesus. This mean spiritedness, intolerance and discrimintion extends even to those who are homosexual who live within the Church's behavior proscriptions"

A: Sadly, that is sometimes true. Everyone is a sinner, so it is inevitable that some will be drawn into the sin of homosexual acts, while others will be drawn into the sins of mean spiritness, discrimination, and even hatred. The sins of one do not mitigate the sins of the other.

"The scandal of homosexuality is the Church's treatment of homosexuals- especially those who do live celibate and Cathoilic lives"

A: That is patently false! The Catholic Church is just about the only agent on earth which reaches out to homosexuals, offering them genuine compassion, acceptance, and healing. Virtually everywhere else their unhealthy lifestyle engenders either disgust , discrimination and hatred - or - equally destructive to the afflicted person, acceptance and encouragement in continuing down the path to eternal damnation. The Church is truly the only place a homosexual - or any sinner for that matter - can turn for forgiveness, spiritual health, and eternal salvation.

"But the Church's teaching is more based upon the sacred nature of sexuality and its connection to marriage than to outtright condemnation of homosexuality"

A: It is based on both. As I said above, the immoral and perverse nature of homosexual acts is innate. It is not a function of the fact that it occurs outside of marriage.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 05, 2003.


i think that im a jew and that if there is a hole man that is against god he should be exiled because he knows better and if he does not then he should not be a priest.

-- jesyy (jeses@comcast.net), November 06, 2003.

fire him

-- nononononono (no reall don't be stupid@go away.net), November 06, 2003.

How can anyone teach the laws of God when he doesnt believe in them himself? You can't teach what you don't do yourself. If so then you are a hypocrite, a fake. God specicaly says "no man shall lie with another man the way he lies with a women". What is so hard to understand about that one COMMAND that answers all your questions about Should gay priests be allowed? And us as Gods people should stand for Him and not let this happen, did he not stand for us when he died on the cross?

-- Andy J (Jesus@hotmail.com), December 15, 2003.

I don't trust priests a bit. I dated someone who use to be a priest. That is no longer a one. He changed his religion. He was total opposite of what he teached. He was sneaky, a big sexual freak. He joked about drugs. Priests are dangerous people. Especially people who are too religious.

-- Sherry (eagle9589@yahoo.com), March 21, 2004.

Sherry,i he was an Ex preist, then he wasnta preust any longer.

That said, you have bad peopel an god in any proffession. I know some rotten preachers, and soem good ones. Just liek I know good and bad poltiicians, and good and bad police officers.

Soem police are corrupt and on the take, did you knwo that? This doesnt mean all police are.

I think you shoudl be more careful with generalisations.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 21, 2004.


Topping for Steve.

Please let me know if you want to read up on this. I rember a few more threads that might be of some interest to you. Most of the older threads were "trashed", but I think there are some avaiable?

-- - (David@excite.com), June 25, 2004.


Thank you David. What concerns me most is "anon"' s post of 5 November. Anon, if this is actually going on, have you reported it to your bishop and the police? If not, why not? What do you hope to achieve by posting it anonymously to this forum? I suspect that your allegations are in fact false and that you just want to throw mud at the Church.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), June 25, 2004.

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