There is not disagreement between us regarding the neccesity of authority through a church. I never said a church was not neccesary. Baptism is the gate into the kingdom of God on the Earth ie. the church. Absulutely. His church is here to teach us, but it has a Prophet of God. A man inspired by the Lord himself to guide and direct his people. Yes there is the Church of God on the earth. My salvation is not solely dependent on the church. For if have lived a member of His church and sin without repentance and continued good works then my membership was false. Too numerouse references. Matthew 7 will suffice. So lets not waste time on that point. WE are agreed. Which church? Either Christ established a church which survived. Or it fell into apostacy and was retored? Theres the issue. Let's both agree that we each feel strongly one way and the other. Okay. Did Jesus warn of a falling away of his "followers during his life?" Did his apostles warn of a "falling away"? Did any of the called and appointed leaders of the church in Christs time prophesy about "a times of restitution of all things"? Did John see the woman chased into the wilderness for a determined period time? FInally the spirit of the HOly Ghost tells us the truth of all things. I don't worship the Lord because of a Tradition. I worship him because the Spirit is alive and well in HIs church. His Priethood is within her. Be careful not to point to miracles. I can do so too, but John warns of the last days being full of evil men showing miracles to decieve the very elect. Miracles follow them that believe. Not for who. Only tongues. My son is in Paris right now, Monday was his first day. He spoke in french fluently and understood them perfectly. He really struggled with it on his own, the gift is granted to his servants for the purpose of converting. The only gift to convince is the gift of tongues. Wells that a lot of subject. Thanks I appreciate your responses. This done in a spirit of friendly discussion. I love members of my church, or not, I must stand up for what I know to be right, as you feel also. I understand this. SO lets do it with friendship. Many things that Jesus said to the Jews upset them, and up to that point they had some pretty good reasons for beleiveing they had the truth. Did Jesus love them? Was his message upsetting to them? Did he mince words. I am not like Christ, If I have offended I apologize. But let's keep discussing. Thanks Sorry no time to proof-read

-- Frank Godfrey (fgodfrey@macu.org), October 03, 2003

Answers

Look, this is ALOT simpler than you make it. Jesus Christ - as far as we know from the account in the Gospel of Mathew - promised the apostles that HE would build HIS Church, and that HE would be with THEM (the apostles) "all days until the end of the age"...

Now either he meant what he said, or he didn't. If he didn't mean what he said there, can we trust what he said elsewhere? If we doubt he could DO what he said...don't we doubt he can DO other things, like, save us?

But what else is it but doubt in Christ's divinity and power than to PRESUME that his Church completely fell into apostasy? From a strictly biblical point of view you simply CAN NOT conclude that the Church he founded on the apostles (thereby it being a hierarchical Church, with an authoritative teaching body of men, not a book club of independent actors), would fall apart within one generation.

Yes, the Church would and did suffer, and yes there were and are false brothers...but no where is it claimed that the entire Church would fall into apostasy... that is a claim created in the 1500's to explain how in the world Luther can have moral authority in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 03, 2003.

"Either Christ established a church which survived. Or it fell into apostacy and was retored"

That's right. Of course, if His Church did fall into apostacy, then He Himself was a liar, so there would be no point in belonging to His Church anyway. He guaranteed that His Church would never fall victim to the powers of evil. Surely that is an absolute assurance against apostacy! He also said that He would be with His Church until the end of time. So what happened? Is He staying with an apostate Church until the end of time? Or did He change His mind, abandon His own Church, and join some other Church that was founded by men 1500 years later? Neither of those options sounds likely to me.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 03, 2003.