When Vatican II meets Fatima and La Salettegreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread
On January 25th, 1959 Pope John XXIII announced his intention of calling an Ecumenical Council, which later become one of the most controversial councils of our Roman Catholic faith in almost 400 years. One year later as the council preparatory commissions and secretariats set up by motu proprio, meaning under the pope's personal authority, in that same year, Sister Lucia was officially forbidden to speak about the third secret and could receive no visitors except close relatives and people she had known for a long time and this even included her own confessor of many years, Father Aparicio. Many in the RadTrad (Radical Traditionist) movement point to this fact as proof that the Vatican Council was a sign of the coming apostasy and its root. Could this be true?
We doubt this, for the council actually was initiated the year before and yet why did our Church place a lid upon Lucia right at time she said our Holy Mother had asked our Church to reveal that third secret? Cardinal Ratzinger may have given a clue in a remark he made on November 11, 1984 in an interview in Jesus Magazine, a publication of the Pauline Sisters. He said that the Secret also refers to "the importance of the Novissimi [the Last Times / the Last Things] "and that "If it is not published, at least for now, it is to avoid confusing religious prophecy with sensationalism...". Why was it so important to keep this precious vision free of such sensationalism? We believe it's because a very important council was opening at that time and perhaps our Church may have been worried that the calling of 'Penance, Penance, Penance!' from above by the Ruach HaKadosh (Holy Spirit) in the last few years would be twisted by misunderstanding and sensationalism as this council was controversial enough without any added stress. Indeed this council may have been in that very vision:
"After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendor that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: 'Penance, Penance, Penance!'."
And we saw in an immense light that is God: 'something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White 'we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark;
Right after the L-rd's judgment is turned to mercy and a call to repent, an immense Light that "IS G-d" appears. Further, Lucia describes this as "something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' and to us this is reminiscent of Moshe (Moses) upon Mount Sinai:
And he (Moshe) said, 'I pray Thee, show Me Thy Glory.'...And the L-rd said 'Behold,...while My Glory passes by...I will cover you with My hand... and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen'" Ex.33.17-22.
At this time when G-d passed in front of Moshe as a person passes before a mirror, G-d was revealing to His people His Torah which He later promised our Church He would write upon our hearts, Jer.31.31-34. This was direct communication from Above to below and we see this in the prophecy above as that Light "IS G-d"! Zechariah has a similar ordering of events:
"Thus says the L-rd My G-d: "Become Shepherd of the flock doomed to slaughter. Those who buy them slay them and go unpunished; and those who sell them say, 'Blessed be the L-rd, I have become rich'; and their own shepherds have no pity on them. For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of this land, says the L-rd. Lo, I will cause men to fall each into the hand of his shepherd, and each into the hand of his king; and they shall crush the earth, and I will deliver none from their hand." Zech.11.4-6
And we believe these words fit one to one with the words of our of Holy Mother at La Salette:
"Melanie, what I am about to tell you now will not always be a secret. You may make it public in 1858. The priests, ministers of my son, the priests, by their wicked lives, by their irreverence and their impiety in the celebration of the holy mysteries, by their love of money, their love of honors and pleasures, the priests have become cesspools of impurity. Yes, the priests are asking vengeance, and vengeance is hanging over their heads. Woe to the priests and to those dedicated to God who by their unfaithfulness and their wicked lives are crucifying my son again! (La Salette)
"...we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire;..." (Fatima 3rd vision)
"So I became the Shepherd of the flock doomed to be slain for those who trafficked in the sheep. Zech.11.7
"and we saw in an immense light that is God.." (Fatima 3rd vision)
"And I took two staffs; one named Grace (Kindness), and the other I name Unions (pledges). And I will tend My sheep." Zech.11.7
What is the connection to the third secret of Fatima and Vatican II? Sister Lucia is reported to have said "It [the Third Secret] will be clearer then". We tend to agree with our most holy sister in Christ because the Fatima prophecy does show Vatican II was Holy and of G-d, yet can these texts we drew this conclusion from also give clues to the source of sin? We suspect so because both foretold the same two wars:
“The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI.” (Fatima 2nd vision)
The war that was ended at the time of this vision was WWI and the war that started just as Pope Pius XI was taking his last painful breath was WWII of which our Holy Mother describes in La Salette in the following manner:
"The peace among men which will set in after the great scourge (WWII is implied) will be only an ostensible peace."
A "great scourge" a curse will come down one brought on by evil migrating into our priesthood back then! Through this scourge they will "by their unfaithfulness and their wicked lives are crucifying my son again!" They did this when they murdered a quarter million innocent Jewish people by their complacency and foolish divisions when Messiah called us to be ONE, Jn.17.22-23. This is why we believe Vatican II was called to bring unity to His body of believers, both Catholic and non-Catholic because the G-dless used our disunity to do the reprehensible. Also, according to our understanding, he sought of whose essence we feel is "kindness", that is extending grace upon those who may not Catholic, who may not even believe in our Messiah, or even in what echoes in the same G-d. We gave with Vatican II these poor souls the benefit of doubt, lest we sow the seeds of hate again though pre-judgment. And we feel Scripture supports the ecumenical movement, made those "pledges" of support, pledges that that will one day unite the brotherhood between Judah and Israel (Zech.11.14) where we see Israel as our Church/Body of Christ.
Yet this same council, according to Fatima third secret, is described as:
"Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark..."
Anyone who has been involved in that council and/or its implementation, which is still happening today probably can relate to our Lady's description of this as a "steep mountain". Indeed we often feel as partakers of the Ecumenical movement that we are sometimes slipping down that mountain rather than climbing it. Yet who is really lead us up that mountain- these men and women described by our Holy Mother or Yeshua Himself? If we are correct that these two pieces to this puzzle go together, then we truly believe it is Yeshua HaMoshiach who is leading, and with Him at the helm how can we doubt that we will not ultimately reach the top?! And at it top we shall find "a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark"
Put simply we do not believe our Church leaders delayed revealing that third vision because they understood so little of this vision, but rather because they saw too much. Yet in zeal to save themselves from "confusing religious prophecy with sensationalism" they do seem to have been very successful in that area, indeed it might be argued that by delaying its revelation they actually made matters worse! Yet for all those who have fought and suffered and mourned over what they see as errors in leadership, these should be comforted, because at the end Yeshua is shepherding this flock through "a Bishop dressed in White 'we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'" who we see as John Paul II for he has shepherded this flock though most of Vatican II's implementation. To us then this means that despite all the staggered movements we see from our leadership, they will complete that long and painful journey to that mountaintop of what our Messiah said:
"So have no fear of them; for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. What you hear in the dark, utter in the Light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim upon the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but can kill the soul; rather fear Him Who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's will. But the even the hairs on your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are more value then many sparrows. So everyone who acknowledges Me before men, I also will acknowledge before My Father Who is in heaven; but whoever denies Me before men; I also will deny before My Father Who is in heaven.
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a mans foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who does not take UP HIS CROSS and FOLLOW ME is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will loose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."
"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him Who sent Me. He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whoever gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he shall not loose his reward." Matt.10.26-42
And our Holy Mother also adds of this cross:
"The Holy Father will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end..."
Therefore, not only do we believe that Yeshua Himself is at this helm, but the Blessed Mother, who seems to be with John Paul II as well holding his hand and strengthening his steps. We write all this because not everyone would have accepted Vatican II, for some can believe and not see while others must see to believe. Hopefully and prayerfully this piece can help those who need to see and make them feel more comfortable in supporting their Church in this very difficult mission she has.
Shalom, C & C
-- C.Foegen (email@example.com), September 30, 2003
That is my story. I give up. I will die outside the Church and without the comfort of the sacraments because I refuse to become a Protestant in order to become a Catholic (?!?!). Recently I read a biography of a woman who was received into the Church in 1912; she said that her ship had at last pulled into a safe and quiet harbor; I, too, wanted this, but, having seen the condition of the average parish, I find the Catholic Church isn't much of a safe harbor any more, for the breakwater has been torn down, the tides are crashing in, and most of the leaders are whistling a care free tune as everything crumbles around them: it's no longer a safe haven for the ship of my soul!!!
To the liberal Novus Ordo types I say you have much to answer for hereafter; you control things and you gave me the heave-ho (but having seen what you do and believe, perhaps that was not such a bad thing); in any case thanks to you and your insane "renewal" I can't be a Catholic ever; if this is what you mean by renewal I hate to think what you call "destruction".
-- Discouraged (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 01, 2003.
In fact, if you have rejected the teaching of the Church and its liturgy, you have already become Protestant. I wouldn't know about "liberal Novus Ordo types". I know there are some out there. I don't know any personally. But I do know that the great majority of Catholics recognize both the profound reality of Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist, AND the authority of the Church to minister the liturgy to us as the Holy Spirit leads, just as true Catholics have done for 2,000 years. Apparently you lack both. If you had any concept at all of what the Eucharist is, the very thought of leaving the Church for any reason would make you physically ill. To this majority of Catholics, who make up The Church, extremist deviations from the teaching of the Magisterium, whether liberal or "tradionalist", are pitiful to behold. Both deny the authority of the Church. Both cause dissention within. Both act according to their own personal desires and preferences, under the guise of what is "best for the Church". Perhaps they should both leave such decisions to those who alone have divine authority to make such decisions.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 02, 2003.
In "The Catholic Answer", of March/April 2002 (Vol.16, Num.1, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Co. © 2002) edition, there is an article by Father Jay Scott Newman, which we read of Rome:
"Several years after my conversion to Christ, I was sent to Rome to study for the priesthood. I went- as most do- filled with romantic visions of living in the city of Peter and Paul, the city of martyrs and confessors, the heart of the Christian world. I found, instead a chaotic and all-too-human city filled with (I thought) an unholy mix of Christian and pagan - a mix in which the pagan seemed all to often the stronger."
Then a little later he adds-
"St. Benedict came to Rome in the fifth century and was scandalized by what he found, but the experience led to his Rule and the transformation of the Christian culture. Sts. Francis and Dominic came to Rome in the 13th century and were emboldened by the need for reform to spread their movements to the known world. And Martin Luther came to Rome in the 16th century and began to confirm what he feared most- that the Church had apparently abandoned the Gospel."
Put simply, complaints such as those you gave are not new for according to the quote above we see St Benedict, Sts. Francis and Dominic and even Martin Luther. However, not all four men handled their discouragement in the same way. As the text above states, the first used this discouragement to be an impetus for reform. Yet in 16th century Martin Luther used his to divide, which led to a legacy of the Holocaust in its wake. A divided body does not allow HaMoshiach (the Messiah) to stand as witness that He came as Son of G- d. We ask you to please pray before you make any final decisions.
Shalom, C & C
-- C.Foegen (email@example.com), October 02, 2003.