Why do Romanists say ten Hail Marys for every Our Father? Isn't the Father greater than Mary?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 25, 2003

Answers

One answer could be that it takes ten Aves to equal one Pater.

But seriously, the origins of the rosary are quite interesting. Very early in the history of the Church, monks and religious started the devotion of praying all 150 psalms every day. Around the fifth century, this formed into a schedule called the Divine Office and was broken down into Lauds, Matins, Vespers, and Compline and the smaller hours of Prime, Terce, Sext, and None. I've been to only Matins and Vespers so I don't know much about how the others are prayed in church. The laity is encouraged to pray the Office in their daily devotions.

Anyhow, the common man around 800 AD who was illiterate and unable to read the Psalms but wanted to pray with the Church, developed the custom of keeping 150 pebbles in their pockets while working. The church bell would ring to indicate the hour of prayer and the people would say one Our Father and pull one pebble out of their pockets. Eventually that became a rope with 150 knots. Later it was shortened to 50 knots. Of course i'm sure you know that the rosary is a collection of prayers and meditations on the events in the life of Christ.

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 26, 2003.

Ok, I can't resist this one...

Why do Romanists say ten Hail Marys for every Our Father? Isn't the Father greater than Mary?

Answer: That is exactly why ten Hail Marys must be prayed. It takes 10 Hail Marys to even consider approaching 1 Our Father.

Ughm! Sorry.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 26, 2003.

I have also read about Mysticism. Christ went into the desert in order to prepare for his mission on earth. The monks made an attempt to live like Christ. This "walk" with Christ has been called "Mysticism". Mysticism in Christianity involves constant praying and discipline. Catholic Mysticism brought many Saints closer to Christ. There are many claims of visions of Christ.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 26, 2003.

Obviously Catholics have NOT read this passage in the word of God, "And when you pray, do not use VAIN REPETITIONS as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words." (Matt 6:7).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 27, 2003.

Yes, I've wondered the same thing. Why the prayer repitions? There has to be answer.

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 27, 2003.

rod,

There is an answer, you don't need it.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 27, 2003.

Kevin, the words 'vain repetitions' refer to the empty prayers of the Gentiles to their gods and goddesses. They words were vain because they were going nowhere. In Gesthemane, Christ prayed the same prayer 3 times, using the same words. Was that vain? Empty? Haven't you prayed the Our Father more than once in your life? The rosary is a means of meditation on the mysteries that were the events in the life of Christ, the most important events in the history of the world. In my own experience, each time it brings a different perspective and I grow closer to Christ. Do you say the Apostle's Creed, or the Nicene Creed, in your church service? Surely that repetition isn't in vain, because it's affirming what you believe. And it's more than a statement: when we say it, we are praying.

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 28, 2003.

Once again, we must not only read the words, but understand their meanings. "Vain" repetitions. We celebrate the church service/mass repeatedly; I hope that isn't in "vain".

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 28, 2003.

I can't remember which religion does this. They have this contraption that has these roller pins--more than 10 roller pin, I think--lined up nice and neatly for the prayers of the day. The monk or follower will walk by these rollers and get them spinning as they walk by for their worship time. Each roller represents prayers. As the roller spins, their prayers are multiplied by the number of revolutions the rollers make. Uh, repetitive prayers , anyone?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 28, 2003.

Gwen,

The prayers that Catholics pray are "empty prayers of the Gentiles" because they are NOT even heard by God. Catholics claim allegiance to God, but as the Apostle Peter said in Titus 1:16, "They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work."

Yes, Christ prayed the same prayer 3 times however, this was a one time occurance (for a special circumstance) in His life that did NOT happen again.

Jesus in teaching the apostles to pray did not teach them to recite the same prayer over and over, but merely taught them how to pray.

The rosary and the words spoken in this recital are nothing more than 'vain repetitions' for God does NOT hear the prayers of those who do NOT obey Him.

There is NO such thing as an "Apostles Creed" or "Nicene Creed", as these are inventions of men and NOT God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 29, 2003.

God the Father Almighty is an invention of men? Creator of heaven and earth is an invention of men? Jesus christ, His only Son, our Lord is an invention of men? Conceived of the Holy Spirit is an invention of men? Born of the virgin Mary is an invention of men? Suffered under Pontius Pilate is an invention of men? Was crucified, died and was buried is an invention of men? He rose again on the third day is an invention of men? He is seated at the right hand of the Father is an invention of men? From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead is an invention of men? The Holy Spirit is an invention of men? One universal Church is an invention of men? The Communion of Saints is an invention of men? Forgiveness of sins is an invention of men? Resurrection of the body is an invention of men? Life everlasting is an invention of men?

That's the whole Creed. Where is the invention of men?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 25, 2003.

"Yes, Christ prayed the same prayer 3 times however, this was a one time occurance (for a special circumstance) in His life that did NOT happen again"

A: How do you know it didn't happen again? If Christ did it once then obviously there is nothing wrong with doing it. So there is no reason to think He wouldn't do it again, or that we shouldn't do it. If it was wrong then obviously Christ would not have done it even once.

"Jesus in teaching the apostles to pray did not teach them to recite the same prayer over and over, but merely taught them how to pray"

A: Then why have Christians been repeating that one prayer, word for word, over and over again, ever since Jesus taught it to them? Perhaps because it is the only prayer we have which was given to us directly by God Himself.

"The rosary and the words spoken in this recital are nothing more than 'vain repetitions'"

A: Any observer can tell whether a particular prayer includes repetitions. But only one who can look into the hearts of men can tell whether those repetitions are vain. I doubt very much that Mr. Walker has this ability.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 25, 2003.

Paul,

Jesus taught them how to pray. He did not tell them,"Here is this prayer, repeat it over and over and over again till you die while holding godless beads."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.

Paul said,"A: Then why have Christians been repeating that one prayer, word for word, over and over again, ever since Jesus taught it to them? Perhaps because it is the only prayer we have which was given to us directly by God Himself"

Christians have not been doing this. Roman Catholics, on the other hand, have.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.

Catholics ALSO pray extemporaneously in addition to countless Traditional Sacred Set Prayers!

However, a person can only pray extemporaneously to a certain Limit ~ then similar phrases and ideas and petitions and praises get repeated.

Catholics have Mastered All Kinds of Prayer: Thanksgiving, Adoration, Anamnesis, Anaphora, Blessing, Contemplative, Groaning, Intercession, Liturgy of the Hours, Meditation, Praise, and Supplication. We have 2000 years worth of monks, nuns, priests, and Saints to prove this! The incense of prayer from our monasteries and churches and homes ascends to God and is very pleasing to Him.

David, have you heard your "pastor's" dramatic testimony of his "born again" experience? Doesn't he Repeat the same exuberant tale with only a slight variation? Extemporaneousness has a Limit. Doesn't your "pastor" pray with the same set of phrases over and over again with only a slight variation? He has a set of familiar prayer formulas in his secret pocket ready for use. He likes to use certain particular stock phrases. Don't you yourself prefer certain phrases over others?

Catholic prayers show us what we should be praying for and how we should be praying. Catholic prayers are Exemplars. Besides, The Hail Mary is Utterly Biblical ~ comprised of the Prayer of the Archangel Gabriel and the Prayer of St. Elizabeth (Luke 1).

David, can you extemporaneously pray better than the following?

Soul of Christ, santify me.
Body of Christ, heal me.
Blood of Christ, drench me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
Good Jesus, hear me.
In your wounds shelter me.
From turning away keep me.
From the evil one protect me.
At the hour of my death call me.
Into your presence lead me,
to praise you with all your saints
for ever and ever.
Amen.
~ St. Ignatius of Loyola

Or, David, can you extemporaneously pray better than the following?

You are God: we praise you;
You are the Lord: we acclaim you;
You are the eternal Father:
All creation worships you.
To you all angels, all the powers of heaven,
Cherubim and Seraphim, sing in endless praise:
Holy, holy, holy, Lord, God of power and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory.
The glorious company of apostles praise you.
The noble fellowship of prophets praise you.
The white-robed army of martyrs praise you.
Throughout the world the holy Church acclaims you:
Father, of majesty unbounded,
your true and only Son, worthy of all worship,
and the Holy Spirit, advocate and guide.
You, Christ, are the king of glory,
the eternal Son of the Father.
When you became man to set us free
you did not spurn the Virgin's womb.
You overcame the sting of death,
and opened the kingdom of heaven to all believers.
You are seated at God's right hand in glory.
We believe that you will come, and be our judge.
Come then, Lord, and help your people,
bought with the price of your own blood,
and bring us with your saints to glory everlasting.
Save your people, Lord, and bless your inheritance.
Govern and uphold them now and always.
Day by day we bless you.
We praise your name for ever.
Keep us today, Lord, from all sin.
Have mercy on us, Lord, have mercy.
Lord, show us your love and mercy;
for we put our trust in you.
In you, Lord, is our hope:
and we shall never hope in vain.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.

"That's the whole Creed. Where is the invention of men?"

Did men write this creed yes or no??? If men wrote it, then it IS an invention of men.

Were the men who wrote this creed INSPIRED to write it??? If not, then it is an invention of men.

I wrote, "Yes, Christ prayed the same prayer 3 times however, this was a one time occurance (for a special circumstance) in His life that did NOT happen again"

To which Paul replied: "How do you know it didn't happen again? If Christ did it once then obviously there is nothing wrong with doing it. So there is no reason to think He wouldn't do it again, or that we shouldn't do it. If it was wrong then obviously Christ would not have done it even once."

My reply, Because Christ ONLY died ONCE!!!! That is how I know this to be true!!!

I wrote, "Jesus in teaching the apostles to pray did not teach them to recite the same prayer over and over, but merely taught them how to pray"

To which Paul replied: "Then why have Christians been repeating that one prayer, word for word, over and over again, ever since Jesus taught it to them? Perhaps because it is the only prayer we have which was given to us directly by God Himself."

My reply, that is the whole point isn't it Paul??? Catholics are NOT Christians, never have been and NEVER will be unless they come out of thise FALSE and CORRUPT church and OBEY the gospel. One CANNOT pray "thy kingdom come" for this has ALREADY happened. Why should one pray for something that is already here??? The "kingdom" is the church!!!

I wrote, "The rosary and the words spoken in this recital are nothing more than 'vain repetitions'"

To which Paul replied: "Any observer can tell whether a particular prayer includes repetitions. But only one who can look into the hearts of men can tell whether those repetitions are vain. I doubt very much that Mr. Walker has this ability."

My reply, I NEVER claimed that I had the ability to "look into the hearts of men" to be able to tell if repetitions are vain, however one CAN look at the rosary and KNOW that these so called prayers ARE repetitions for EVERYONE says the SAME PRAYER. So to say that one CANNOT know that these prayers are vain repititons is NOT the truth now is it Paul???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.

This is the AVERAGE, TYPICAL, STANDARD, USUAL PROTESTANT REPETITIVE PRAYER WHICH ALL PROTESTANTS REPEAT DAY IN AND DAY OUT, AND REPEAT YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT:

"Our dear heavenly Father, we just want to praise and thank Thee for all Thy many blessings to us. We pray that Thou wilt give us journey mercies and that all Thy mercies, which are new every morning and fresh every evening, will be with us. We ask it in Jesus' Name, Amen." ~ Thomas Howard, An Ex-Evangelical, Now a Catholic

Protestants are Not so extemporaneous after all! Protestants REPEAT the same phrases and the same formulas over and over again. Those protestants who try to be eloquent and oratorical in their extemporaneous prayers are praying laboriously and unnaturally (A SHOW! ENTERTAINMENT!)

All Protestants should learn from the 2000 year holy experience and holy expertise of Holy Catholics on How to Pray and What to Pray.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 28, 2003.