Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

By David Daniels

Answer: Down through history, God chose several languages to communicate His message.

Choice 1: Hebrew From at least as far back as Abraham (around 2000 BC) to the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, God chose the Semitic languages, especially Hebrew, to teach men that they were sinners, and in need of a Saviour.

Choice 2: Greek But in the first century AD, God made a second choice. The main language of the world for three centuries had been Greek. God used that language to give the New Testament for the world to read. And it spread like wildfire.

The devil recognized the huge potential of God's Word in a "world" language, so he moved quickly to counter it. He prepared a fake "Bible" in Alexandria, Egypt. The Old Testament portion is called the "Septuagint" and the New Testament portion is called the "Alexandrian text." This corruption was a "Greek" Bible, but with the poison of the Apocrypha mixed in, made to look like real scripture. The Alexandrian "Bible" also perverted the New Testament, taking out many of God's words and substituting man's ideas. This laid the groundwork for Satan's plan to spread religious lies, and subvert the true faith.

Choice 3: Old Latin While the first copies of the New Testament in Greek were being made and passed around, God directed other Christians to translate His preserved words into Old Latin, another "international" language used primarily in Europe. The Old Latin Bible was known as the "Vulgate"

The devil responded by preparing a counterfeit "Vulgate" in Rome. It included the Apocryphal books and the Alexandrian perversions. There were now two Latin "Vulgates," dramatically different from one another. The true Christians knew the difference between the true and the false "Vulgates." But they paid dearly as the Roman Catholic armies hunted down and martyred those who were caught with the true Vulgate. But God continued to preserve His words.

Choice 4: English In the 1500s William Tyndale worked to translate the Bible from the accurate Greek and Hebrew manuscripts into a new "world" language. English-speaking people after him continued the effort to translate and perfect a Bible that matched the ancient scriptures. One of the best of these is the Geneva Bible.

By 1604 God used King James I of England to commission a group of learned men to accumulate scriptures in Hebrew, Greek, Latin and English as well as other languages. Their assignment was to translate God's words into the most accurate English possible. In early 1611 they published the Authorized Version, also known as the King James Bible. From the day it was published, the King James Bible circulated around the world, and missionaries translated Bibles from this precious book.

The devil pulled out all the stops on this one. By the 1800s he had inspired a whole movement to discredit and destroy the King James Bible. Today, we have a multitude of translations that change, remove and add to God's preserved words. But God has always kept the true scriptures in the hands of his people.

God chose each of these languages because they suited his purpose at a particular time in history to carry out His plan.

The choices were God's. Outside of Israel, Hebrew was never a universal language. Ancient Greek is no longer a universal language, nor is Latin. But for our time, in a language read around the world, God preserved His Words in the King James Bible and kept His promise in Psalms 12:6-7.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 25, 2003

Answers

A word to Catholics:

Attack the message, not the messengers. I agree with Kevin that one should back up their claims with scriptures, but I only take it so far. I feel Kevin goes to far from God's simple plan of salvation and into "theology - who makes the better debater".

Back to Catholics, I feel I am going to get many responses for my posting of this article; Mostly negative responses. So before you go attacking this "anti-catholic propaganda", back up your Anti- Evangelical attacks.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 25, 2003.

Negative responses? NO! (sarcasm)

Your article didn't seem negative to me....let's see how many entries for Satan? 1...2...3.........etc.

Who cares that Latin was spoken in upper society and was the learned language of scholars and alchemist/scientists of its time? Not to mention, today latin is still in use in medical and scientific academia...oops....schools. Who cares that the Septuagint was an attempt to bring truth and accuracy to the Scriptures? Who cares that the Church was preserving the Word of God and that people like Tyndale took their own versions and translation, with errors as determined by their own Protestant colleages, knowing that their lives were at risk? Who cares that society reach an epidemic high in illiteracy both among the laity and clergy in both Catholic and Protestant domains that the Church had to maintain the Scriptures for all? Who cares if the Bible was printed in a LARGE SIZE for people to view in the great churches? Who cares that the Protestants caused a chain reaction in Bible versions and translations that produced the confusing varieties of versions we find today? Who cares that nations fought to the death over biblical wording during the days of knights in armor? Who cares if there is a difference between the actual words spoken by Christ and doxology?

I could keep on going, but who cares?

Well, I care. The more the original changes, the less original it stays.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

Wow. The author sure gives a lot of credence to the devil in the whole huge scheme of things. The style of writing kind of smacks of conspiracy theory. Wait....maybe that's because it's from a Chick publication.

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 26, 2003.

Hi David, The devil wrote the Septuagint? Prepared it? Did he actually say to himself "I'm going to prepare these books of the Bible to try and trick people". And little did he know that Luther would be on to his tricks and toss out the books?

Or was it actually that Luther didn't like certain passages in those books and decided to toss them because they didn't fit with his idea of "faith alone"? Didn't the reformers want to get rid of OTHER books, too? And particular passages within other books?

So then, the Protestant Version of the Old Testament is a different one than the one that St. Peter read. And then of course Calvin wanted to toss out the Apocalypse...

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 26, 2003.

gwen,

I don't deal with "what-ifs". This is one thing I don't like about history, and when people try and study it. You can go on an on about what ifs, but the truth is, there is only one thing that happened and nothing can change that. Are the books Luther wanted to throw out still in? Yes; so enough with what ifs.

The Devil is very powerful, he is king of this world and is constantly trying to decieve us.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 26, 2003.

The devil is king of this world?

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 27, 2003.

The Bible is also a historical record! It is record of God and His Son's life, teachings, and Sacrifice for all men. It is a history book of divinity that man has made an attempt to study. We do need to study history. Sure, we may not like some bias perceptions of history, but the facts are always there. Are you sure you meant to say what you said, David?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 27, 2003.

Wow, so all of these folks were quoting from a Satanic Bible? That IS amazing. (I must warn my Catholic friends that David Ortiz believes that Augustine, Clement, Ignatius, Jerome, Athanasius, etc. were all UN-believers because they were CATHOLIC!)

"Having then this hope, let our souls be bound to Him who is faithful in His promises, and just in His judgments. He who has commanded us not to lie, shall much more Himself not lie; for nothing is impossible with God, except to lie. Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us, and let us consider that all things are nigh unto Him. By the word of His might He established all things, and by His word He can overthrow them. 'Who shall say unto Him, What hast thou done ? or, Who shall resist the power of His strength?'[Wisdom 12:12,ll:22] When and as He pleases He will do all things, and none of the things determined by Him shall pass away? All things are open before Him, and nothing can be hidden from His counsel. 'The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handy-work. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. And there are no words or speeches of which the voices are not heard.'[Ps. 19:1-3]" Clement of Rome,To the Corinthians, 27:5(c A.D. 80),in ANF,I:12

"Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When you can do good, defer it not, because 'alms delivers from death.'[Tobit 4:10,12:9] Be all of you subject one to another?[1 Pt 5:5] having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,'[1 Pt 2:12] that ye may both receive praise for your good works, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed![Isa 52:5] Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. Polycarp,To the Phillipians,10(A.D. 135),in ANF,I:35

" 'Be just in your judgement':[Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. 'Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving'[Sirach 4:31]" Didache,4:3-5(A.D. 140),in ACW,VI:17

"Melito to his brother Onesimus, greeting: Since thou hast often, in thy zeal for the word, expressed a wish to have extracts made from the Law and the Prophets concerning the Saviour and concerning our entire faith, and hast also desired to have an accurate statement of the ancient book, as regards their number and their order, I have endeavored to perform the task, knowing thy zeal for the faith, and thy desire to gain information in regard to the word, and knowing that thou, in thy yearning after God, esteemest these things above all else, struggling to attain eternal salvation. Accordingly when I went East and came to the place where these things were preached and done, I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song off Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books." Melito of Sardes,Fragment in Eusebius' Ecclesiatical History,4:26 (A.D. 177),in NPNF2,I:206

"[New Testament books...] The Epistle of Jude, indeed, and two belonging to the above-named John--or bearing the name of John--are reckoned among the Catholic epistles. And the book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honour." Muratorian Fragment(A.D. 200),in ANF,V:603-604

"What, then, again says the prophet? 'The assembly of the wicked surrounded me; they encompassed me as bees do a honeycomb,'[Ps. 22:17,118:12] and 'upon my garment they cast lots.'[Ps. 22:19] Since, therefore, He was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, His suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against Israel, 'Woe to their soul, because they have counselted an evil counsel against themselves,[Isa. 3:9] saying, Let us bind the just one, because he is displeasing to us.'[Wisdom 2:12] And Moses also says to them, 'Behold these things, saith the Lord God: Enter into the good land which the Lord sware [to give] to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and inherit ye it, a land flowing with milk and honey.'[Ex. 33:1, Lev. 20:24]" Epistle of Barnabas,6(A.D. 74),in ANF,I:140

"And when these things are done, he says, 'God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth.'[Isa. 6:12] 'And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves.'[Isa. 65:21] For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: 'And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,' And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, "Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God. O Jerusalem, put off thy robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from thy God. Gird thyself with the double garment of that righteousness proceeding from thy God; place the mitre of eternal glory upon thine head. For God will show thy glory to the whole earth under heaven. For thy name shall for ever be called by God Himself, the peace of righteousness and glory to him that worships God. Arise, Jerusalem, stand on high, and look towards the east, and behold thy sons from the rising of the sun, even to the west, by the Word of that Holy One, rejoicing in the very remembrance of God. For the footmen have gone forth from thee, while they were drawn away by the enemy. God shall bring them in to thee, being borne with glory as the throne of a kingdom. For God has decreed that every high mountain shall be brought low, and the eternal hills, and that the valleys be filled, so that the surface of the earth be rendered smooth, that Israel, the glory of God, may walk in safety. The woods, too, shall make shady places, and every sweet-smelling tree shall be for Israel itself by the command of God. For God shall go before with joy in the light of His splendour, with the pity and righteousness which proceeds from Him.'[Baruch(reckoned as part of Jeremiah) 4:36-5:9]" Irenaeus,Against Heresies,V:35:1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:565

"Those, however, who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts, and, do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt towards others, and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat, and work evil deeds in secret, saying, 'No man sees us,' shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance (secundum gloriam), nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words, to be found in Daniel the prophet: 'O thou seed of Canaan, and not of Judah, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust perverted thy heart.'[Daniel 13:56-Susanna] Thou that art waxen old in wicked days, now thy sins which thou hast committed aforetime are come to light; for thou hast pronounced false judgments, and hast been accustomed to condemn the innocent, and to let the guilty go free, albeit the Lord saith, The innocent and the righteous shalt thou not slay.'[Daniel 13:52-53-Susanna] Of whom also did the Lord say: "But if the evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, and shall begin to smite the man-servants and maidens, and to eat and drink and be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day that he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.' [Matt 24:48] " Irenaeus,Against Heresies,IV:26:3(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:497

"For, when one reads of God as being 'the searcher and witness of the heart;'[Wisdom 1:6] when His prophet is reproved by His discovering to him the secrets of the heart; when God Himself anticipates in His people the thoughts of their heart, 'Why think ye evil in your hearts?'[Matt 9:4] when David prays 'Create in me a clean heart, O God,'[Ps 51:12] and Paul declares, 'With the heart man believeth unto righteousness,'[Romans 10:10] and John says, 'By his own heart is each man condemned;'[1 John 3:20] when, lastly, 'he who looketh on a woman so as to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart,'[Matt 5:28]--then both points are cleared fully up, that there is a directing faculty of the soul..." Tertullian,On the Soul,15(A.D. 197),in ANF,III:194

"Our instruction comes from 'the porch of Solomon,' who had himself taught that 'the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart.'[Wisdom 1:1]" Tertullian,Prescription Against the Heretics,7(A.D. 200),in ANF,III:246

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 27, 2003.

"For they remembered also the words of Jeremias writing to those over whom that captivity was impending: 'And now ye shall see borne upon (men's) shoulders the gods of the Babylonians, of gold and silver and wood, causing fear to the Gentiles. Beware, therefore, that ye also do not be altogether like the foreigners, and be seized with fear while ye behold crowds worshipping those gods before and behind, but say in your mind, Our duty is to worship Thee, O Lord.'[Baruch 6:3] Therefore, having got confidence from God, they said, when with strength of mind they set at defiance the king' s threats against the disobedient: 'There is no necessity for our making answer to this command of yours. For our God whom we worship is able to deliver us from the furnace of fire and from your hands; and then it will be made plain to you that we shall neither serve your idol, nor worship your golden image which you have set up.'[Daniel 3:16]" Tertullian,Scorpiace,8(A.D. 205),in ANF,III:246

"At this stage some rise up, saying that the Lord, by reason of the rod, and threatening, and fear, is not good; misapprehending, as appears, the Scripture which says, 'And he that feareth the Lord will turn to his heart;'[Sirach 21:6] and most of all, oblivious of His love, in that for us He became man. For more suitably to Him, the prophet prays in these words: 'Remember us, for we are dust;'[Ps 103:14] that: is, Sympathize with us; for Thou knowest from personal experience of suffering the weakness of the flesh. In this respect, therefore, the Lord the Instructor is most good and unimpeachable, sympathizing as He does from the exceeding greatness of His love with the nature of each man. 'For there is nothing which the Lord hates.'[Wisdom 11:24] For assuredly He does not hate anything, and yet wish that which He hates to exist Nor does He wish anything not to exist, and yet become the cause of existence to that which He wishes not to exist. Nor does He wish anything not to exist which yet exists. If, then, the Word hates anything, He does not wish it to exist. But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God. Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one--that is, God. For He has said, 'In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.'[John 1:1]" Clement of Alexandria,The Instructor,I:8(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:225

"And again He says, 'Come all to Me, who labour, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest;'[Matt 11:28] and that which is added the Lord speaks in His own person. And very clearly He calls to goodness by Solomon, when He says, 'Blessed is the man who hath found wisdom, and the mortal who hath found understanding.'[Prov 3:13] 'For the good is found by him who seeks it, and is wont to be seen by him who has found it.'[Prov 2:4,5;3:15] By Jeremiah, too, He sets forth prudence, when he says, 'Blessed are we, Israel; for what is pleasing to God is known by us'[Baruch 4:4]--and it is known by the Word, by whom we are blessed and wise. For wisdom and knowledge are mentioned by the same prophet, when he says, 'Hear, O Israel, the commandments of life, and give ear to know understanding.'[Baruch 3:9] By Moses, too, by reason of the love He has to man, He promises a gift to those who hasten to salvation. For He says, 'And I will bring you into the good land, which the Lord sware to your fathers.' [Deut 31:20]" Clement of Alexandria,The Instructor,I:8(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:232-233

"[H]aving heard the Scripture which says, 'Fasting with prayer is a good thing.'[Tobit 12:8]" Clement of Alexandria,The Stromata,6:12(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:503

"But they said, 'We will not come forth: neither will we do the king's commandment; we will die in our innocency: and he slew of them a thousand souls.'[1 Macc 2:33] The things, therefore, which were spoken to the blessed Daniel are fulfilled: 'And my servants shall be afflicted, and shall fall by famine, and by sword, and by captivity.'[Dan. 11:33] Daniel, however, adds: 'And they shall be holpen with a little help.' For at that time Matthias arose, and Judas Maccabaeus, and helped them, and delivered them from the hand of the Greeks." Hippolytus,Commentary on Daniel,2:32(A.D. 204),in ANF,V:183

"What is narrated here, happened at a later time, although it is placed before the first book (at the beginning of the book[of Daniel]. For it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings....To all these things, therefore, we ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest any one be overtaken in any transgression, and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the Judge of all; and the Word Himself is the Eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah." Hippolytus,Commentary on Daniel,6:1,61(A.D. 204),in ANF,V:191,194

" 'For even now the angel of God.' He shows also, that when Susannah prayed to God, and was heard, the angel was sent then to help her, just as was the case in the instance of Tobias[Tobit 3:17] and Sara. For when they prayed, the supplication of both of them was heard in the same day and the same hour, and the angel Raphael was sent to heal them both." Hippolytus,Commentary on Daniel,6:55(A.D. 204),in ANF,V:193

" '[T]he prophet says, "The ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright," that is, about Christ, "Let us lie in wait for the righteous, because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings and words, and upbraideth us with our offending the law, and professeth to have knowledge of God; and he calleth himself the Child of God.'[Wisdom 2:1,12,13] And then he says, 'He is grievous to us even to behold; for his life is not like other men's, and his ways are of another fashion. We are esteemed of him as counterfeits, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed.[Wisdom 2:15,16]" Hippolytus,Against the Jews,65(ante A.D. 235),in ANF,V:218-9

"But the case stands not thus; for the Scriptures do not set forth the matter in this manner. But they make use also of other testimonies, and say, Thus it is written: 'This is our God, and there shall none other be accounted of in comparison of Him. He hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant (son), and to Israel His beloved. Afterward did He show Himself upon earth, and conversed with men.'[Baruch 3:25-38]" Hippolytus,Against the Noetus,2(A.D. 210),in ANF,V:224

" 'It should be stated that the canonical books, as the Hebrews have handed them down, are twenty-two; corresponding with the number of their letters.' Farther on he says: 'The twenty-two books of the Hebrews are the following: That which is called by us Genesis, but by the Hebrews, from the beginning of the book, Bresith, which means, 'In the beginning'; Exodus, Welesmoth, that is, 'These are the names'; Leviticus, Wikra, 'And he called'; Numbers, Ammesphekodeim; Deuteronomy, Eleaddebareim, ' These are the words'; Jesus, the son of Nave, Josoue ben Noun; Judges and Ruth, among them in one book, Saphateim; the First and Second of Kings, among them one, Samouel, that is, 'The called of God'; the Third and Fourth of Kings in one, Wammelch David, that is, 'The kingdom of David'; of the Chronicles, the First and Second in one, Dabreiamein, that is, 'Records of days'; Esdras, First and Second in one, Ezra, that is, 'An assistant'; the book of Psalms, Spharthelleim; the Proverbs of Solomon, Me-loth; Ecclesiastes, Koelth; the Song of Songs (not, as some suppose, Songs of Songs), Sir Hassirim; Isaiah, Jessia; Jeremiah, with Lamentations and the epistle in one, Jeremia[Baruch 6]; Daniel, Daniel; Ezekiel, Jezekiel; Job, Job; Esther, Esther. And besides these there are the Maccabees, which are entitled Sarbeth Sabanaiel." Origen,Canon of the Hebrews,Fragment in Eusebius' Church History,6:25 [A.D. 244],in NPNF2,I:272

"In all these cases consider whether it would not be well to remember the words, 'Thou shalt not remove the ancient landmarks which thy fathers have set.' Nor do I say this because I shun the labour of investigating the Jewish Scriptures, and comparing them with ours, and noticing their various readings. This, if it be not arrogant to say it, I have already to a great extent done to the best of my ability, labouring hard to get at the meaning in all the editions and various readings; while I paid particular attention to the interpretation of the Seventy, lest I might to be found to accredit any forgery to the Churches which are under heaven, and give an occasion to those who seek such a starting-point for gratifying their desire to slander the common brethren, and to bring some accusation against those who shine forth in our community." Origen,To Africanus,5(ante A.D. 254),in ANF,IV:387 In Origen's epistle to Julius Africanus he defends the canonicity of Susanna [Daniel 13], Bel and the Dragon[Daniel 14], the prayers of Azarias[Daniel 3], and the hymn of praise of the three youths in the fiery furnace[Daniel 3].

"And I make it my endeavour not to be ignorant of their various readings, lest in my controversies with the Jews I should quote to them what is not found in their copies, and that I may make some use of what is found there, even although it should not be in our Scriptures. For if we are so prepared for them in our discussions, they will not, as is their manner, scornfully laugh at Gentile believers for their ignorance of the true reading as they have them." Origen,To Africanus,5(ante A.D. 254),in ANF,IV:387

"[A]s is written in the book of Tobit: 'It is good to keep close the secret of a king, but honourable to reveal the works of God,'[Tobit 12:7]--in a way consistent with truth and God's glory, and so as to be to the advantage of the multitude." Origen,Against Celsus,5:19(A.D. 248),in ANF,IV:551

"But he ought tp know that those who wish to live according to the teaching of Sacred Scripture understand the saying, 'The knowledge of the unwise is as talk without sense,'[Sirach 21:18] and have learnt 'to be ready always to give an answer to everyone that asketh us a reason for the hope that is in us.'[1 Pt 3:15] " Origen,Against Celsus,7:12(A.D. 248),in ANF,IV:615

"But that we may believe on the authority of holy Scripture that such is the case, hear how in the book of Maccabees, where the mother of seven martyrs exhorts her son to endure torture, this truth is confirmed; for she says, ' ask of thee, my son, to look at the heaven and the earth, and at all things which are in them, and beholding these, to know that God made all these things when they did not exist.'[2 Maccabees 7:28]" Origen,Fundamental Principles,2:2(A.D. 230),in ANF,IV:270

"[T]he Wisdom of Solomon, a work which is certainly not esteemed authoritative by all. In that book, however, we find written as follows: "For thy almighty hand, that made the world out of shapeless matter, wanted not means to send among them a multitude of bears and fierce lions.'[Wisdom 11:17]" Origen,Fundamental Principles,2:2(A.D. 230),in ANF,IV:270

"And, forsooth, when we notice such things, we are forthwith to reject as spurious the copies in use in our Churches, and enjoin the brotherhood to put away the sacred books current among them, and to coax the Jews, and persuade them to give us copies which shall be untampered with, and free from forgery! Are we to suppose that that Providence which in the sacred Scriptures has ministered to the edification of all the Churches of Christ, had no thought for those bought with a price, for whom Christ died." Origen,To Africanus,4(ante A.D. 254),in ANF,IV:387

"For since it is written, 'God did not make death, neither hath He pleasure in the destruction of the living,'[Wisdom 1:13]" Cyprian,Epistle 51/55:22(A.D. 252),in ANF,V:333

"[T]his the faith of the sacred Scripture assures us, and in telling us how such as these prayed, gives an example which we ought to follow in our prayers, in order that we may be such as they were: 'Then these three,' it says, 'as if from one mouth sang an hymn, and blessed the Lord.'[3 Youths-Daniel 3:51]" Cyprian,Treatise 4,8(A.D. 252),in ANF,V:449

"And thus Holy Scripture instructs us, saying, 'Prayer is good with fasting and almsgiving.'[Tobit 12:8] Cyprian,Treatise 4,32(A.D. 252),in ANF,V:456

"Holy Scripture teaches and forewarns, saying, 'My son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in righteousness and fear, and prepare thy soul for temptation.'[Sirach 2:1,4] And again: 'In pain endure, and in thy humility have patience; for gold and silver is tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.'[Sirach 2:5]" Cyprian,Treatise 7,9(A.D. 252),in ANF,V:471

"Also in Daniel: 'There was a man dwelling in Babylon whose name was Joachim; and he took a wife by name Susanna, the daughter of Helchias, a very beautiful woman, and one that feared the Lord. And her parents were righteous, and taught their daughter according to the law of Moses.'[Susanna-Daniel 13:1-3]. Moreover, in Daniel: 'And we are lowly this day in all the earth because of our sins, and there is not at this time any prince, or prophet, or leader, or burnt- offering, or oblation, or sacrifice, or incense, or place to sacrifice before Thee, and to find mercy from Thee. And yet in the soul and spirit of lowliness let us be accepted as the burnt- offerings of rams and bulls, and as it were many thousands of lambs which are fattest. If our offering may be made in Thy presence this day, their power shall be consumed, for they shall not be ashamed who put their trust in Thee. And now we follow with our whole heart, and we fear and seek Thy face. Give us not over unto reproach, but do with us according to Thy tranquillity, and according to the multitude of Thy mercy deliver us.'[3 Youths-Daniel 3:37-43]" Cyprian,Testimonies,20(ante A.D. 258),in ANF,V:540

"In the Gospel according to John: 'No one can receive anything, except it were given him from heaven.'[John 3:27] Also in the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: 'For what hast thou that thou hast not received? But if thou hast received it, why boastest thou, as if thou hadst not received it?'[1 Cor 4:7] Also in the first of Kings: 'Boast not, neither speak lofty things, and let not great speeches proceed out of your mouth, for the Lord is a God of knowledge.'[1 Sam 2:4] Also in the same place: 'The bow of the mighty men has been made weak, and the weak are girt about with strength.'[1 Sam 2:5] Of this same thing in the Maccabees: 'It is just to be subjected to God, and that a mortal should not think things equal to God.'[2 Macc 9:12] Also in the same place: 'And fear not the words of a man that is a sinner, because his glory shall be filth and worms. Today he shall be lifted up, and to-morrow he shall not be found; because he is turned into his earth, and his thought has perished.'[1 Macc 2:62,63] " Cyprian,Treatises,12:3:4(A.D. 248),in ANF,V:533

"In Genesis: 'And God, tempted Abraham, and said to him, Take thy only son whom thou lovest, Isaac, and go into the high land, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell thee.'[Gen 22:1,2] Of this same thing in Deuteronomy: 'The Lord your God proveth you, that He may know if ye love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul.'[Deut 13:3] Of this same thing in the Wisdom of Solomon: 'Although in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality; and having been in few things distressed, yet in many things they shall be happily ordered, because God tried them, and found them worthy of Himself. As gold in the furnace He proved them, and as a burnt-offering He received them. And in their time there shall be respect of them; they shall judge the nations, and shall rule over the people; and their Lord shall reign for ever.'[Wisdom 3:4-8] Of this same thing in the Maccabees: 'Was not Abraham found faithful in temptation, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness?'[1 Macc 2:52]" Cyprian,Treatises,12:3:15(A.D. 248),in ANF,V:537

"[T]hat they worship Him alone, saying: 'O king Nebuchodonosor, there is no need for us to answer thee in this matter. For the God whom we serve is able to deliver us out of the furnace of burning fire; and He will deliver us from thy hands, O king. And if not, be it known unto thee, that we do not serve thy gods, and we do not adore the golden image which thou hast set up.'[Dan 3:16-18] And Daniel, devoted to God, and filled with the Holy Spirit, exclaims and says: 'I worship nothing but the Lord my God, who founded the heaven and the earth.'[Dan 14:5 Bel & Dragon] Tobias also, although under a royal and tyrannical slavery, yet in feeling and spirit free, maintains his confession to God, and sublimely announces both the divine power and majesty, saying: 'In the land of my captivity I confess to Him, and I show forth His power in a sinful nation.'[Tobit 13:6]" Cyprian,Treatises,11:11(A.D. 257),in ANF,V:503

"But listen to the divine oracles: 'The works of the Lord are in judgment; from the beginning, and from His making of them, He disposed the parts thereof. He garnished His works for ever, and their principles unto their generations.'[Sirach 16:24-25]" Dionysius the Great,On Nature,3(ante A.D. 265),in ANF,VI:86

"He is a Spirit--for says He, 'God is a Spirit'[John 4:24]--fittingly again is Christ called Breath; for 'He,' saith He, 'is the breath of God's power.'[Wisdom 7:25]" Dionysius the Great,To Dionsyius of Rome,4(ante A.D. 265),in ANF,VI:92

"Solomon also shows that it is the Word of God, and no other, by whose hands these works of the world were made. 'I,' He says, 'came forth out of the mouth of the Most High before all creatures: I caused the light that faileth not to arise in the heavens, and covered the whole earth with a cloud. I have dwelt in the height, and my throne is in the pillar of the cloud.'[Sirach 24:3-5]" Lactanius,Institutions,4:8(A.D. 310),in ANF,VII:107

"Therefore, I do not think men ought to be considered pious who presume to investigate this subject, in disobedience to the injunction, 'Seek not what is too difficult for thee, neither enquire into what is too high for thee.'[Sirach 3:21] For if the knowledge of many other things incomparably inferior is beyond the capacity of the human mind, and cannot therefore be attained, as has been said by Paul, 'Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared far them that lave Him'[1 Cor 2:9], and as God also said to Abraham, that the stars could not be numbered by him; and it is likewise said,' Who shall number the grains of sand by the sea-shore, or the drops of rain?'[Sirach 1:2]" Alexander of Alexandria,To brother Alexander, fragment in Theodoret of Cyrus' Ecclesiastical History,1:3(A.D. 324),in NPNF2,III:37

"For this was accomplished at that time, when the venerable and aged Eleazar was slain, and the sons of the blessed Samuna, seven in number,[ref 2 Maccabees 6:18-31] and when Judas (Maccabeus) and his brethren were struggling on behalf of their people[ref 2 Maccabees 5:27]" Aphraates the Persian Sage,Demonstrations,5:19(A.D. 345),in NPNF2,XIII:359

"He leads away to himself the wealthy, the sons of luxury; And 'they leave their possessions as the waves of the sea.'[Sirach 29:17]" Aphraates the Persian Sage,Demonstrations,22:7(A.D. 345),in NPNF2,XIII:404

"Of these read the two and twenty books, but have nothing to do with the apocryphal writings. Study earnestly these only which we read openly in the Church. Far wiser and more pious than thyself were the Apostles, and the bishops of old time, the presidents of the Church who handed down these books. Being therefore a child of the Church, trench thou not upon its statutes. And of the Old Testament, as we have said, study the two and twenty books, which, if thou art desirous of learning, strive to remember by name, as I recite them. For of the Law the books of Moses are the first five, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. And next, Joshua the son of Nave, and the book of Judges, including Ruth, counted as seventh. And of the other historical books, the first and second books of the Kings are among the Hebrews one book; also the third and fourth one book. And in like manner, the first and second of Chronicles are with them one book; and the first and second of Esdras are counted one. Esther is the twelfth book; and these are the Historical writings. But those which are written in verses are five, Job, and the book of Psalms, and Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs, which is the seventeenth book. And after these come the five Prophetic books: of the Twelve Prophets one book, of Isaiah one, of Jeremiah one, including Baruch[1-5] and Lamentations and the Epistle[of Jeremiah-Baruch 6]; then Ezekiel, and the Book of Daniel, the twenty- second of the Old Testament." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,4:33(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:27

"The Divine Nature then it is impossible to see with eyes of flesh: but from the works, which are Divine, it is possible to attain to some conception of His power, according to Solomon, who says, 'For by the greatness and beauty of the creatures proportionably the Maker of them is seen'[Wisdom 13:5]. He said not that from the creatures the Maker is seen, but added proportionably. For God appears the greater to every man in proportion as he has grasped a larger survey of the creatures: and when his heart is uplifted by that larger survey, he gains withal a greater conception of God. Wouldest thou learn that to comprehend the nature of God is impossible? The Three Children in the furnace of fire, as they hymn the praises of God, say 'Blessed art thou that beholdest the depths, and sittest upon the Cherubim'[Daniel 3:55-Three Youths]." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,9:2,3(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:51

"[L]earn from this instance the mightiness of God: for 'He hath numbered the drops of rain'[Job 26:27], which have been poured down on all the earth, not only now but in all time. The sun is a work of God, which, great though it be, is but a spot in comparison with the whole heaven; first gaze stedfastly upon the sun, and then curiously scan the Lord of the sun. 'Seek not the things that are too deep for thee, neither search out the things that are above thy strength: what is commanded thee, think thereupon'[Sirach 3:20,21]." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,6:4(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:34

"Hear the Prophet saying, 'This is our God, none other shall be accounted of in comparison with Him. He hath found out every way of knowledge, and given it to Jacob His servant, and to Israel His beloved. Afterwards He[she] was seen on earth, and conversed among men'[Baruch 3:36-38]." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,9:15(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:68

"He says to Daniel; young though thou be, convict old men infected with the sins of youth; for it is written, 'God raised up the Holy Spirit upon a young stripling'[Daniel 13:45-Susanna]" Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,16:31(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:123

"For when they speak against the ascension of the Saviour, as being impossible, remember the account of the carrying away of Habakkuk: for if Habakkuk was transported by an Angel, being carried by the hair of his head[Daniel 14-Bel & the Dragon], much rather was the Lord of both Prophets and Angels, able by His own power to make His ascent into the Heavens on a cloud from the Mount of Olives." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,14:25(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:101

"[T]he Old Testament is reckoned as consisting of twenty-two books...so that of Moses there be five books...with the Lamentations and the Letter[Baruch 6-Epistle of Jeremiah], and Daniel...bringing the number of the books to twenty-two. It is to be noted also that by adding to these Tobias and Judith, there are twenty-four books, corresponding to the number of letters used by the Greeks." Hilary of Poitiers,Prologue to the Psalms,15(A.D. 365),in JUR, 1:383

"They say that the Father has prescience of all things, as the blessed Susanna says, 'O eternal God, that knowest secrets, and knowest all things before they be'[Daniel 13:42-Susanna]" Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,4:8(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:73

"As you have listened already to Moses and Isaiah, so listen now to Jeremiah inculcating the same truth as they:--'This is our God, and there shall be none other likened unto Him, Who hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant and to Israel His beloved. Afterward did He shew Himself upon earth and dwelt among men.'[Baruch 3:36-38] Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,4:42(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:84

"Such suggestions are inconsistent with the clear sense of Scripture. For all things, as the Prophet says[ref 2 Maccabees 7:28], were made out of nothing; it was no transformation of existing things, but the creation into a perfect form of the non-existent." Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,4:16(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:76

"Then, while the devout soul was baffled and astray through its own feebleness, it caught from the prophet's voice this scale of comparison for God, admirably expressed, 'By the greatness of His works and the beauty of the things that He hath made the Creator of worlds is rightly discerned'[Wisdom 13:5]." Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,1:7(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:42

"There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and the epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament...But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple. Athanasius,Festal Letters,39:4,7(A.D. 367),in NPNF2,IV:552

"[T]he sacred writers to whom the Son has revealed Him, have given us a certain image from things visible, saying, 'Who is the brightness of His glory, and the Expression of His Person;'[Heb 1:3] and again, 'For with Thee is the well of life, and in Thy light shall we see lights;'[Ps 36:9] and when the Word chides lsrael, He says, 'Thou hast forsaken the Fountain of wisdom;'[Baruch 3:12] and this Fountain it is which says, 'They have forsaken Me the Fountain of living waters'[Jer 2:13]" Athanasius,Defense of the Nicene Faith,2:12(A.D. 351),in NPNF2,IV:158

" And where the sacred writers say, Who exists before the ages,' and 'By whom He made the ages,'[Heb 1:2] they thereby as clearly preach the eternal and everlasting being of the Son, even while they are designating God Himself. Thus, if Isaiah says, 'The Everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth[2];'[Is 40:28] and Susanna said, 'O Everlasting God[3];'[Daniel 13:42-Susanna] and Baruch wrote, 'I will cry unto the Everlasting in my days,' and shortly after, 'My hope is in the Everlasting, that He will save you, and joy is come unto me from the Holy One;'[Baruch 4:20,22]" Athanasius,Discourses Against the Arians,1:4(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:313

"[I]t is written that 'all things were made through the Word,' and 'without Him was not made one thing,'[John 1:3] and again, 'One Lord Jesus, through whom are all things,'[1 Cor 8:9] and 'in Him all things consist,'[Col 1:17] it is very plain that the Son cannot be a work, but He is the Hand of God and the Wisdom. This knowing, the martyrs in Babylon, Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, arraign the Arian irreligion. For when they say, 'O all ye works of the Lord, bless ye the Lord,'[Daniel 3:57-Three Youths]" Athanasius,Discourses Against the Arians,2:71(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:387

"Daniel said to Astyages, 'I do not worship idols made with hands, but the Living God, who hath created the heaven and the earth, and hath sovereignty over all flesh;'[Daniel 14:5-Bel & the Dragon]" Athanasius,Discourses Against the Arians,3:30(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:410

"But if this too fails to persuade them, let them tell us themselves, whether there is any wisdom in the creatures or not? If not how is it that the Apostle complains, 'For after that in the Wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God?'[1 Cor 1:21] or how is it if there is no wisdom, that a 'multitude of wise men'[Wisdom 6:24] are found in Scripture? for 'a wise man feareth and departeth from evil;'[Prov 14:16] and 'through wisdom is a house builded;'[Prov 24] and the Preacher says, 'A man's wisdom maketh his face to shine;' and he blames those who are headstrong thus, 'Say not thou, what is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not inquire in wisdom concerning this.'[Eccl 8:1,7:10] But if, as the Son of Sirach says, 'He poured her out upon all His works; she is with all flesh according to His gift, and He hath given her to them that love Him,'[Sirach 1:8,9]" Athanasius,Discourses Against the Arians,2:79(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:391

"[F]or it is written of the other, 'The foolish person will speak foolishness;' [Is 32:6 LXX] but of these, 'Ask counsel of all that are wise.'[Tobit 4:18]" Athanasius,Defense before Constantius,17(A.D. 357),in NPNF2,IV:244

"So as Judith says, 'Thou hast thought, and what things thou didst determine were ready at hand.'[Judith 9:5,6]" Basil,On the Holy Spirit,8:19(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VIII:13

"The Lord ordereth 'all things in measure and weight,'[Wisdom 11:20]" Basil,To Clergy of Samosata,Epistle 219:1(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VIII:260

"What Scripture says is very true, 'As for a fool he changeth as the moon.'[Sirach 27:11] Basil,Hexaemeron,6:10(A.D. 370),in NPNF2,VIII:88

"Standing and sitting, I apprehend, indicate the fixity and entire stability of the nature, as Baruch, when he wishes to exhibit the immutability and immobility of the Divine mode of existence, says, 'For thou sittest for ever and we perish utterly.'[Baruch 3:3]" Basil,On the Holy Spirit,6:15(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VIII:10

"But the Spirit is believed to have been operating at the saint time in Habakkuk and in Daniel at Babylon,[ref Daniel 14:35-Bel & the Dragon] and to have been at the prison with Jeremiah,[ref Jer 20:2] and with Ezekiel at the Chebar.[ref Ez 1:1]" Basil,On the Holy Spirit,23:54(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VIII:35

"The Lord is now making trial of your love for Him. Now there is an opportunity for you, through your patience, to take the martyr's lot. The mother of the Maccabees[ref 2 Maccabees 7] saw the death of seven sons without a sigh, without even shedding one unworthy tear." Basil,To the Wife of Nectarius,Epistle 6:2(A.D. 358),in NPNF2,VIII:115

"[T]he Scripture tells us, 'into the malicious soul Wisdom cannot come.'[Wisdom 1:4]" Gregory of Nyssa,On Virginity,15(A.D. 371),in NPNF2,V:361

"[T]he prophetical writing says, 'knoweth all things before they be,'[Daniel 3:42-Susanna]" Gregory of Nyssa,Against Making of Man,16(A.D. 379),in NPNF2,V:406

"[T]he prophet says, 'was seen upon earth and conversed with men,'[Baruch 3:38]" Gregory of Nyssa,Against Eunomius,6:4(A.D. 384),in NPNF2,V:189

"[I]n the Scripture the 'Seed of the Chaldeans'[Judith 5:6] removed, and the children of Babylon dashed against the Rocks and destroyed." Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 45,2nd Oration on Easter 15(A.D. 383),in NPNF2,VII:428

"And how shall we preserve the truth that God pervades all things and fills all, as it is written 'Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord,'[Jer 23:24] and 'The Spirit of the Lord filleth the world,'[Wisdom 1:7] if God partly contains and partly is contained?" Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 28,2nd Theological 8(A.D. 380),in NPNF2,VII:291

"Passing by the elders in the book of Daniel;[Ref Daniel 13:5- Susanna] for it is better to pass them by, together with the Lord's righteous sentence and declaration concerning them..." Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 2,Flight to Pontus 64(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,VII:218

"Not by raining down manna, as for Israel of old[ref Ex 16:14] or opening the rock, in order to give drink to His thirsting people,[ref Ps 78:24] or feasting her by means of ravens, as Elijah,[ref 1 Kings 17:6] or feeding her by a prophet carried through the air, as He did to Daniel when a-hungered in the den.[ref Daniel 14:33,34-Bel & Dragon]" Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 18,On the Death of his Father 30(A.D. 374),in NPNF2,VII:264

"[T]he just man in the den, restraining the lions' rage,[ref Daniel 6:22] and the struggle of the seven Maccabees,[ref 2 Maccabees 7:1] who were perfected with their father and mother in blood, and in all kinds of tortures. Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 43,Panegyric on Basil 74(A.D. 381),in NPNF2,VII:420

"The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [ie., 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings];Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], one book. Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book,...lamentations, Ezechiel one book, Daniel one book, Osee ... Nahum ... Habacuc ... Sophonias ... Aggeus ... Zacharias ... Malachias ... Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books." Council of Rome,Decree of Pope Damasus(A.D. 382),in DEN,34

"Of the Old Covenant: the five books of Moses--Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy; one of Joshua the son of Nun, one of the Judges, one of Ruth, four of the Kings, two of the Chronicles, two of Ezra, one of Esther, one of Judith, three of the Maccabees, one of Job, one hundred and fifty psalms; three books of Solomon--Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs; sixteen prophets. And besides these, take care that your young persons learn the Wisdom of the very learned Sirach." Apostolic Constitutions,47:85(A.D. 400),in ANF,VII:505

"And again; 'Do not to another what thou hatest'[Tobit 4:15]" John Chrysostom,Concerning Statues,7(A.D. 387),in NPNF1,IX:428

"Wherefore we must cast out all wickedness from our souls, and never more contrive any deceit; for, saith one, 'To the perverse God sendeth crooked paths [Prov 21:8 LXX]; and, 'The holy spirit of discipline will flee deceit, and remove from thoughts that are without understanding.'[Wisd. 1:5]" John Chrysostom,Homilies on John,41(A.D. 391),in NPNF1,XIV:150

"Let us then repeat to ourselves soothing charms drawn from the holy Scripture, and say, 'Thou art earth and ashes.' 'Why is earth and ashes proud?' [Sirach 10:9], and, 'The sway of his fury shall be his destruction'[Sirach 1:19] and, 'The wrathful man is not comely'[Prov. 11:25 LXX]" John Chrysostom,Homilies on John,48(A.D. 391),in NPNF1,XIV:175

"Elsewhere the Scripture takes the term "old" in the sense of blame; for seeing that the things are of various aspect as being composed of many parts, it uses the same words both in a good and an evil import, not according to the same shade of meaning. Of which you may see an instance in the blame cast elsewhere on the old: [Ps. 17:46 LXX] 'They waxed old, and they halted from their paths.' And again, [Ps. 6:7 LXX] 'I have become old in the midst of all mine enemies.' And again, [Daniel 13:52-Susanna] 'O thou that art become old in evil days.' So also the 'Leaven' is often taken for the kingdom of Heaven, although here found fault with. But in that place it is used with one aspect, and in this with another." John Chrysostom,Homilies on 1st Corinthians,15(A.D. 392),in NPNF1,XII:87

"And to prove that I say not this upon conjecture; when they fell into the furnace, they bewailed themselves after this sort, saying, [Daniel 3:29,33-Three Youths] 'We have sinned, we have done iniquity, we cannot open our mouth.' John Chrysostom,Homilies on 1st Corinthians,18(A.D. 392),in NPNF1,XII:104

"And Baruch in the book of Jeremiah says 'this is our God: no other shall be reckoned by the side of Him: He found out every path of knowledge and gave it to Jacob His servant, and lsrael his beloved. After these things also He appeared upon the earth, and held converse with men.'[Baruch 3:35-37] And David signifying His incarnate presence said 'He shall come down like the rain into a fleece of wool, and like the drop which distills upon the earth'[Ps 72:6] because He noiselessly and gently entered into the Virgin's womb. John Chrysostom,Against Marcionist & Manicheans(ante A.D. 403),in NPNF1,XI:205

"That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture. Item, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis. Exodus. Leviticus. Numbers. Deuteronomy. Joshua the Son of Nun. The Judges. Ruth. The Kings, four books. The Chronicles, two books. Job. The Psalter. The Five books of Solomon. The Twelve Books of the Prophets. Isaiah. Jeremiah. Ezechiel. Daniel. Tobit. Judith. Esther. Ezra, two books. Macchabees, two books." Council of Hippo,Canon 36(A.D. 393),in NPNF2,XIV:453-454

"[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus,Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach], twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees." Council of Carthage III,Canon 397(A.D. 397),in DEN,39-40

"Nor do I allege any opinion of my own, but I repeat that which the Holy Spirit spake by the prophet: 'Blessed is the barren that is undefiled.'[Wisdom 3:13]" Ambrose,Concerning Virginity,7:35(A.D. 378),in NPNF2,X:369

"So then, holy Judith,[Judith 10:3ff] strengthened by lengthened mourning and by daily fasting, sought not the enjoyments of the world regardless of danger, and strong in her contempt for death." Ambrose,Concerning Widows,7:38(A.D. 378),in NPNF2,X:397

"Daniel also, unless he had received the Spirit of God, would never have been able to discover that lustful adultery, that fraudulent lie. For when Susanna, assailed by the conspiracy of the elders, saw that the mind of the people was moved by consideration for the old men, and destitute of all help, alone amongst men, conscious of her chastity she prayed God to judge; it is written: 'The Lord heard her voice, when she was being led to be put to death, and the Lord raised up the Holy Spirit of a young youth, whose name was Daniel.'[Daniel 13:44,45-Susanna]" Ambrose,On the Holy Spirit,3:6:39(A.D. 381),in NPNF2,X:140

"And the Lord bids them lay aside the garments of mourning, and to cease the groanings of repentance, saying: 'Put off, O Jerusalem, the garment of thy mourning and affliction. and clothe thyself in beauty, the glory which God hath given thee for ever.'[Baruch 5:1]" Ambrose,Concerning Repentance,I:9:43(A.D. 384),in NPNF2,X:336

"Wherefore the Scripture says well: 'A wise man will keep silence until there is opportunity.'[Sirach 20:6]" Ambrose,Duties of the Clergy,I:2:5(A.D. 391),in NPNF2,X:2

"When Jeremiah understood what they wanted he said: 'The spot will remain unknown until God shall gather His people together and be gracious to them. Then God shall reveal these things and the majesty of the Lord shall appear.'[2 Maccabees 2:7]" Ambrose,Duties of the Clergy,III:17:101(A.D. 391),in NPNF2,X:84

"And what safety can there be for us unless we wash away our sins by fasting, since Scripture says that fasting and alms do away sin? [Tobit 12:8,9]" Ambrose,Epistle 63:16(A.D. 396),in NPNF2,X:459

"This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a 'helmeted' introduction to all the books which we now turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom ... the book of ... Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be in Hebrew, the second in Greek, as can be proved from the very style." Jerome,Preface to Samuel and Kings[Prologus Galeatus](A.D. 391),in NPNF2,VI:490

"We have the authentic book of Jesus son of Sirach, and annother pseudepigraphic work, entitled the Wisdom of Solomon. I found the first in Hebrew, with the title, 'Parables', not Ecclesiasticus, as in Latin versions...The second finds no place in Hebrew texts, and its style is redolent of Greek eloquence: a number of ancient writers assert that it is a work of Philo Judaeus. Therefore, just as the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them to the canon of Scripture; so let the Church read these two volumes, for the edification of the people, but not to support the authority of ecclesiastical doctrines." Jerome,Preface to Proverbs,(A.D. 398),in LCF,187

"What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us." Jerome,Against Rufinus,11:33(A.D. 402),in NPNF2,III:517

"At least that is what Solomon says: "wisdom is the gray hair unto men.'[Wisdom 4:9]" Jerome,To Paulinus, Epistle 58(A.D. 395),in VI:119

"[D]oes not the scripture say: 'Burden not thyself above thy power'[Sirach 13:2]?" Jerome,To Eustochium,Epistle 108(A.D. 404),in NPNF2,VI:207

"I would cite the words of the psalmist: 'the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,'[Ps 51:17] and those of Ezekiel 'I prefer the repentance of a sinner rather than his death,'[Ez 18:23] and those of Baruch, 'Arise, arise, O Jerusalem,'[Baruch 5:5] and many other proclamations made by the trumpets of the prophets." Jerome,To Oceanus,Epistle 77:4(A.D. 399),in NPNF2,VI:159

"The words of 2 Maccabees v. 17, which say that Antiochus Epiphanes had power to overthrow the Temple, 'because of the multitude of sins,'[2 Macc 5:17] are quoted in connection with the confessions of Daniel." Jerome,Against the Pelagians,II:30(A.D. 415),in NPNF2,VI:471

"Of the Old Testament, therefore, first of all there have been handed down five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Then Jesus Nave, (Joshua the son of Nun), The Book of Judges together with Ruth; then four books of Kings (Reigns), which the Hebrews reckon two; the Book of Omissions, which is entitled the Book of Days (Chronicles), and two books of Ezra (Ezra and Nehemiah), which the Hebrews reckon one, and Esther; of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel; moreover of the twelve (minor) Prophets, one book; Job also and the Psalms of David, each one book. Solomon gave three books to the Churches, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Canticles. These comprise the books of the Old Testament...But it should be known that there are also other books which our fathers call not 'Canonical' but 'Ecclesiastical:' that is to say, Wisdom, called the Wisdom of Solomon, and another Wisdom, called the Wisdom of the Son of Syrach, which last-mentioned the Latins called by the general title Ecclesiasticus, designating not the author of the book, but the character of the writing. To the same class belong the Book of Tobit, and the Book of Judith, and the Books of the Maccabees. In the New Testament the little book which is called the Book of the Pastor of Hermas, [and that] which is called The Two Ways,[ie. Didache] or the Judgment of Peter; all of which they would have read in the churches, but not appealed to for the confirmation of doctrine. The other writings they have named 'Apocrypha.' These they would not have read in the Churches. These are the traditions which the Fathers have handed down to us, which, as I said, I have thought it opportune to set forth in this place, for the instruction of those who are being taught the first elements of the Church and of the Faith, that they may know from what fountains of the Word of God their draughts must be taken." Rufinus of Aquileia,The Apostles Creed,37-38(A.D. 404),in NPNF2,III:557-558

"Which also the Prophet fore told when he said, 'This is our God: no other shall be accounted of in comparison of Him. He hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant and to Israel His beloved. Afterward He shewed Himself upon the earth, and conversed with men.'[Baruch 3:36-38]" Rufinus of Aquileia,The Apostles Creed,37-38(A.D. 404),in NPNF2,III:557-558

"A brief addition shows what books really are received in the canon. These are...of Moses five books...and Josue, of Judges one book, of Kings four books, and also Ruth, of the Prophets sixteen books, of Solomon five books, the Psalms. Likewise of the histories, Job one book, of Tobias one book, Esther one, Judith one, of the Machabees two, of Esdra two, Paralipomenon two books..." Pope Innocent[regn. A.D. 401-417],To Exsuperius,Epistle 6(A.D. 405),in DEN,42

"Now the whole canon of Scripture on which we say this judgment is to be exercised, is contained in the following books:--Five books of Moses, that is, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; one book of Joshua the son of Nun; one of Judges; one short book called Ruth, which seems rather to belong to the beginning of Kings; next, four books of Kings, and two of Chronicles --these last not following one another, but running parallel, so to speak, and going over the same ground. The books now mentioned are history, which contains a connected narrative of the times, and follows the order of the events. There are other books which seem to follow no regular order, and are connected neither with the order of the preceding books nor with one another, such as Job, and Tobias, and Esther, and Judith, and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Ezra,(ie. Ezra & Nehemiah) which last look more like a sequel to the continuous regular history which terminates with the books of Kings and Chronicles. Next are the Prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David; and three books of Solomon, viz., Proverbs, Song of Songs, and Ecclesiastes. For two books, one called Wisdom and the other Ecclesiasticus, are ascribed to Solomon from a certain resemblance of style, but the most likely opinion is that they were written by Jesus the son of Sirach. Still they are to be reckoned among the prophetical books, since they have attained recognition as being authoritative. The remainder are the books which are strictly called the Prophets: twelve separate books of the prophets which are connected with one another, and having never been disjoined, are reckoned as one book; the names of these prophets are as follows:-- Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; then there are the four greater prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel. The authority of the Old Testament is contained within the limits of these forty-four books." Augustine,On Christian Doctrine,II:8(A.D. 426),in NPNF1,II:53-539

"Wherefore, as Scripture says, 'when you go forth to serve the Lord stand in the fear of the Lord, and prepare your mind'[Sirach 2:1]" John Cassian,The Institutes,4:37(A.D. 426),in NPNF2,XI:231

"[A]s Scripture itself testifies: 'For God made not death, neither rejoiceth in the destruction of the living.'[Wisdom 1:13]" John Cassian,Third Conference of Abbot Chaermon,7(A.D. 428),in NPNF2,XI:425

"[T]he Prophet says, 'the Lord Himself is God, who found out all the way of knowledge; who was seen upon earth and conversed with men.'[Baruch 3:37,38]" John Cassian,The Incarnation of Christ,4:13(A.D. 430),in NPNF2,XI:580

"[T]he divine Oracles cry aloud, 'Remove not the landmarks, which thy fathers have set,'[Prov 22:28] and 'Go not to law with a Judge,'[Sirach 8:14] and 'Whoso breaketh through a fence a serpent shall bite him,'[Eccles 10:8]" Vincent of Lerins,Commonitory,21:51(A.D. 434),in NPNF2,XI:146

"Two officers in the army, who were shield bearers in the imperial suite, at a certain banquet lamented in somewhat warm language the abomination of what was being done, and employed the admirable language of the glorious youths at Babylon, 'Thou hast given us over to an impious Prince an apostate beyond all the nations on the earth.'[Daniel 3:32-Three Youths]" Theodoret of Cyrus,Ecclesiastical History,3:11(A.D. 440),in NPNF2,III:101

"A wise man who knew all this full well reasons about deaths of this kind and says, 'Yea; speedily was he taken away, lest that wickedness should alter his understanding.'[Wisdom 4:11]" Theodoret of Cyrus,To Cyrus Magistrianus,Epistle 136(ante A.D. 466),in NPNF2,III:306

"And hence Tobias also, while instructing his son in the precepts of godliness, says, 'Give alms of thy substance, and turn not thy face from any poor man: so shall it come to pass that the face of GOD shall not be turned from thee'[Tobit 4:7]" Pope Leo the Great[regn A.D. 440-461],Sermon 10:4(ante A.D. 461),in NPNF2,XII:121

"[T]he sins which are washed away either by the waters of baptism, or the tears of repentance, may be also blotted out by alms-giving; for the Scripture says, 'As water extinguisheth fire, so alms extinguisheth sin.'[Sirach 3:29] Through our Lord Jesus Christ." Pope Leo the Great[regn A.D. 440-461],Sermon 49:6(ante A.D. 461),in NPNF2,XII:162

"But O ungodliest of men[ie Judas Iscariot], "thou seed of Chanaan and not of Juda,'[Daniel 13:56-Susanna]" Pope Leo the Great[regn A.D. 440-461],Sermon 67(ante A.D. 461),in NPNF2,XII:179

"Who[ie the Son] is equal with God the Father, have assumed the form of a slave and the likeness of sinful flesh. But because 'by the devil's malice death entered into the world'[Wisdom 2:24]" Pope Leo the Great[regn A.D. 440-461],Sermon 78:2(ante A.D. 461),in NPNF2,XII:192

"The canonical books of the Old Testament are therefore twenty-one in number...Besides these there are other books of the same Old Testament, which are not canonical, and which are read only to the catechumens. These are the Wisdom of Solomon...the Wisdom of Jesus, Son of Sirach,... Esther,... Judith,... Tobias... These are not canonical." Synopsys of Sacred Scripture,2(A.D. 500),in JUR,III:255

"For of him it is written, But by envy of the devil death entered into the world'[Wisdom 2:24]" Pope Gregory the Great[regn A.D. 590-604],Pastoral Care,10(ante A.D. 604),in NPNF2,XII:32

"[L]et them hear what is written, 'Give to every man that asketh of thee'[Luke 6:30]. Lest they should give something, however little to those on whom they ought to bestow nothing at all, let them hear what is written. 'Give to the good man, and receive not a sinner: do well to him that is lowly, and give not to the ungodly'[Sirach 12:4]. And again, 'Set out thy bread and wine on the burial of the just, but eat and drink not thereof with sinners' [Tobit 4:17]." Pope Gregory the Great[regn A.D. 590-604],Pastoral Care,20(ante A.D. 604),in NPNF2,XII:45

"The divine Scripture likewise saith that 'the souls of the just are in God's hand'[Wisdom 3:1] and death cannot lay hold of them." John Damascene,Orthodox Faith,4:15(A.D. 743),in NPNF2,IX:87

"But others, though future, are put in the past tense, as, for instance, This is our God: 'Therefore He[she] was seen upon the earth and dwell among men'[Baruch 3:38]." John Damascene,Orthodox Faith,4:18(A.D. 743),in NPNF2,IX:90

"[S]o that in them was fufilled that which is written, 'The service of God is abominable to the sinner.'[Sirach 1:22]" 7th Ecumenical Council,Nicea II,Canon 6,in NPNF2,XIV:566

Quotes Provided by Joseph A. Gallegos © 1999 All Rights Reserved.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 27, 2003.

Gail,

Once again, your CUT AND PASTE Church History proves absolutely NOTHING. We have had this discussion in the past and it seems that you still haven't learned a thing have you???

The apostle Paul said in Acts 20:29-30, "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves." This prophecy of Paul came true for this is exactly what happened to the church as the elders did this very thing and it ended up with one man in control of NOT the Lord's church, but an APOSTATE CHURCH - the pope.

I know why you do NOT use the word of God to support your doctrines, because they CANNOT be found there!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 27, 2003.

Kevin, Why does it bother you to look at Christian history? When did the church "apostasize"? Reminds of of the Mormon theory that the Christian church apostasized and had to be restored later on. Is your own church the restoration of it, or are you part of the group that hid and had the truth while the people we think are Church Fathers were corrupt? Why would God allow his Church to become corrupt? "Lo, I am with you always" I honestly want to understand

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 28, 2003.

Hi gwen,

Kevin believes that the denomination "Churches of Christ" is the only church in obidience with the "gospel". He believes (as do I) that the True Church of Christ is made up of the body of believers, but for him the beleivers can only come from his denomination because everyone else is wrong.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 28, 2003.

Thanks, David. I am not really familiar with the different Protestant groups and which ones think their denomonation is the only correct one.

I have heard that a Protestant church (meaning a particular parish/building/ church family/not sure how you call it) can split over a Minister/Pastor's beliefs on particular subjects of faith. This happened to a church down the street from where I grew up. It was a beautiful old church, very active, but they had some disagreement between the pastor and some of his congregants, and the congregants started their own church in another building. I never really knew if it was called Church of God , Assembly of God, something similar. Has anyone here experienced such a split? I'd think it would be rather painful to part with people you'd worshipped with.

-- gwen (gwen@panam.edu), September 28, 2003.

That sort of thing happens quite often. People leave or Pastors leave, or voted out. I've observed the political side of Pastoring. Smiles and handshakes go a long way. Now, not all churches are the same. I've seen a few that have the same people and the same pastor for years. The smiles and handshakes go even longer ways.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 28, 2003.

Gwen,

You wrote, "Kevin, Why does it bother you to look at Christian history? When did the church "apostasize"?"

Because history is NOT a safe guide when it comes to religion. History is subject to being changed, manipulated etc, and this has in fact happened many times over.

The church began to "apostasize" in the first century just look at the book of Revelation and the seven churches. Out of those seven, there were only two faithful congregations and the other five were admonished that if they did not repent, Jesus would remove their lampstand.

You wrote, "Why would God allow his Church to become corrupt? "Lo, I am with you always" I honestly want to understand"

The apostle Paul stated in Acts 20:29-30, "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves."

The conclusion of this matter ended up being the Catholic Church as it stands today with one man in control of an organization that does NOT even resemble the church of the New Testament.

Jesus IS with His church, and that is NOT the Catholic Church, NOR has He ever been associated with this organization whose ministers, "transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:15).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 29, 2003.

Kevin,

This thread is not a discussion on doctrine. If it were I would have used scripture AND tradition. David's post suggests that the Greek Septuagint was Satan's work. There is no scripture to support that theory whatsoever NOW IS THERE KEVIN, and the early church certainly did quote extensively from the Apochrypha NOW DIDN'T THEY, KEVIN? Do you ever try actually reading a thread before you start spouting off your beleagered attempts at apologetics?

Gail

P.S. There is only one thing that exceeds your ignorance and that is your chauvinistic arrogance. My hat is off to you, Kevin, you must have a hard time getting that 500 pound head of yours through doors and into cars. It must be hard to swim with that extraordinary weight you carry around on your shoulders. How do you swim without sinking like a lead balloon? Do you take up three seats in an airplane; one for your buttocks and three for your head?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 01, 2003.

Gail,

You wrote, "This thread is not a discussion on doctrine. If it were I would have used scripture AND tradition. David's post suggests that the Greek Septuagint was Satan's work. There is no scripture to support that theory whatsoever NOW IS THERE KEVIN, and the early church certainly did quote extensively from the Apochrypha NOW DIDN'T THEY, KEVIN? Do you ever try actually reading a thread before you start spouting off your beleagered attempts at apologetics?"

I never said this thread was a "discussion on doctrine" now did I Gail? I made that statement because I have seen VERY LITTLE to NO scripture from you or any Catholic to back up your false claims. The Apostles and those who were inspired to write the New Testament did NOT quote from the Apocrypha now did they??? Once again, instead of making an attempt to PROVE your point, when you don't have an answer you do a good job of throwing out false accusations without ever bothering to prove them.

You wrote, "P.S. There is only one thing that exceeds your ignorance and that is your chauvinistic arrogance."

Really Gail, now I am "ignorant" and "chauvinistic arrogance". If this is the case, then once again I challenge you to prove that this is in fact true. If I am ignorant of the word of God, then I most certainly do NOT see you making an attempt to CORRECT my "ignorance" now do you? No, you would rather throw out false accusations and insult me instead of speaking the truth. If I am a "chauvinist" as you so state, then once again I challenge you to PROVE IT. If you CANNOT, then once again you are wasting your time and showing everyone how really grown up you are!!!

You wrote, "My hat is off to you, Kevin, you must have a hard time getting that 500 pound head of yours through doors and into cars. It must be hard to swim with that extraordinary weight you carry around on your shoulders. How do you swim without sinking like a lead balloon? Do you take up three seats in an airplane; one for your buttocks and three for your head?"

I continue to be amazed at how you can throw out accusations with NO proof ever offered. I have NEVER thrown one insult in your direction NOR do I ever plan to because Jesus tells us to "love our enemies". I will pray for you Gail that you will let go of your hate, because that is EXACTLY what your last post is full of. Why don't you go back to your Catholic forum where you can heap insults on anyone who does not agree with your doctrine. Catholics CLAIM to be Christians, but in reading your last post, this PROVES that you are in fact NOT a Christian.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 01, 2003.

Kevin, you are a socially inept Neanderthal whose greatest thrill is to broadcast your meaningless jargon across the board. You cannot carry out a meaningful discussion with ANYONE, including David, your Protestant brother. You are hateful, viscious and devoid of anything one could characterize as "the fruit of the spirit." You are rarely, if ever kind. You are smug, patronizing, belittling and quite simply a complete and total BORE!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 02, 2003.

Gail,

You wrote, "Kevin, you are a socially inept Neanderthal whose greatest thrill is to broadcast your meaningless jargon across the board."

Gail, that is another FALSE charge that you could not prove if your life depended on it. Instead of refuting my message, you instead choose to "shoot the messenger". This is a typical response to those who do NOT have an answer to the truth according to the Word of God. If I am a "socially inept Neanderthal" as you state, then once again the challenge is for you to "prove it". But, as in all of your FALSE accusations, this you CANNOT prove now can you?

You wrote, "You cannot carry out a meaningful discussion with ANYONE, including David, your Protestant brother."

What do you mean by "meaningful discussion"??? There is NO problem with any of my posts, and if there were I am sure that they would be the first to point out the errors in them. I have yet to see anyone "refute" what I have stated from the Word of God and this INCLUDES YOU. A "meaningful discussion" in your eyes is that I agree with what you have said from history, Catholic tradition etc. and DISCARD what God ACTUALLY stated in His word that CONTRADICTS what is being stated what one must do in order to be saved. I will NOT compromise with the truth for God's Word CANNOT be tampered with as Catholics AND Protestants have accomplished EXACTLY as the first part of 2 John 9 states, "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God."

Catholics and Protestants do "not abide in the doctrine of Christ" and do NOT have God.

The second part of the verse states, "He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."

In order to "abide in the doctrine of Christ", one MUST conform EXACTLY to what Christ has laid out in the New Testament. Catholics state that the Word of God is NOT all that is required for salvation directly CONTRADICTING 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and Protestants state that one may be saved by "faith only" and that plan of salvation is NOT even hinted at in the Word of God.

You wrote, "You are hateful, viscious and devoid of anything one could characterize as "the fruit of the spirit."

If I am "hateful", "viscious" and "devoid of anything one could characterize as the fruit of the spirit", then once again, I CHALLENGE you to CUT AND PASTE MY POSTS and PROVE that I am guilty of this very thing.

You wrote, "You are rarely, if ever kind."

Once again, please CUT AND PASTE my posts to show how this is the case!

You wrote, "You are smug, patronizing, belittling and quite simply a complete and total BORE!"

I suppose that I am all of these things to you because I have told you the truth in the past that you are NOT saved and therefore I have become your enemy because I told you the truth. (Galatians 4:16). The truth of the matter is Gail that if you were REALLY a Christian, you would NOT even think such evil things of another person for God states in 2 Corinthians 13:5 for Love "thinks no evil". If I have done ANY of these things, I would be the first to apologize however, be reminded that I will NEVER apologize NOR compromise with the truth. I will continue to pray for you Gail, that God will open your eyes to the truth of His Word and that you might come out of Catholicism for you CANNOT be saved if you remain a Catholic.

Plain and simple, the Word of God correct's men's lives, whether they are wrong morally or doctrinally.

Sadly, many today like you Gail, REFUSE to heed correction.

Like the spoiled brat, they will hold their breath, stamp their feet, pitch a fit, throw a tantrum, and shoot the messenger if confronted with their error.

Correction simply indicates a returning to the right way. I have in the Catholic forum and in this forum told you specifically what God requires of one to be saved, now it is up to you to decide whether or not you will comply with God's conditions.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 03, 2003.

Ok, here is that little thing called "logic".

If all of us attend your church, Kevin, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?

If all of us attend your church, David, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?

If all of us attend your church, Gail, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?

If all of us attend your church, rod, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?

If all of us attend your church, Gwen, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?

If all of us attend your church, Welp, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?

Each of us have some idea of the truth, some have part of the truth, and some have all of the truth. At least, this is what I've read so far. But, obviously, we can't all have the truth and practice it through our worship identically. Yet, some of us claim to be correct. So, this must be happening:

1. the Scriptures are unclear.
2. the Scriptures are mis-interpreted.
3. the Scriptures are understood within the cultures or traditions.
4. Man has distorted the truth and continues to distort the truth.
5. Salvation cannot be found in any church.
6. Salvation can be found in only one church.
7. Salvation can be found in other denominations.
8. Salvation has nothing to do with church, denominations,and doctrines.
9. Religions of the world?????

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 03, 2003.

No, actually, Kevin, my dislike for you has nothing to do with anything other than your personality.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 03, 2003.

Kevin writes,"have in the Catholic forum and in this forum told you specifically what God requires of one to be saved"

Kevin,

Stop making requirements. We are not under the Old Law anymore. We are under Grace now. We are told countless of times that the sole condition is to believe. You will quote "even the devils believe", but the Demons are not trusting Christ to save them.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned Mark 16:16

This verse does not mention anything about "he that baptizes not shall be damn", so that is enough to get rid of your "absolute" requirments. But you insist on following your false doctrine, and make a case for the word "AND".

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 03, 2003.

David,

You wrote, "Stop making requirements. We are not under the Old Law anymore. We are under Grace now."

Yes, we are under Grace, but Grace does NOT preclude obedience. Hebrews 5:9 states, "...He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him"

You might as well tell Jesus to "Stop making requirements" for He specifically tells us that Jesus gives eternal salvation to all who "obey Him" and this falls far short of your "faith only" view. If you claim that we are "not under law" anymore, then you are mistaken, for we are under the "law of Christ". Christian freedom IS based upon law, the law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21), and upon order or enforcement of that law, effected through obedience (Hebrews 5:9; John 8:36).

You wrote, "We are told countless of times that the sole condition is to believe. You will quote "even the devils believe", but the Demons are not trusting Christ to save them."

Yes David we are told countless times to "believe", but we are NOT told that the "sole condition is to believe". If this is the ONLY condition, then you are removing REPENTANCE, CONFESSION and BAPTISM from the plan of salvation. If "faith" is the ONLY condition to being saved, then please do explain why the apostle Paul stated in Romans 16:25-27, "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen."

The Apostle Paul was "OBEDIENT TO THE FAITH" in other words, he OBEYED THE GOSPEL for he stated in Romans 1:5, "Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name," The proof of this fact is that he was told by Ananias to "WASH AWAY HIS SINS" (for this is EXACTLY what Baptism accomplishes) in Acts 22:16.

A great many of the priests were also "OBEDIENT TO THE FAITH" for Acts 6:7 states, "Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith."

The Faith that OBEYS is the ONLY Faith that saves and the Apostle James CLEARLY and PLAINLY states this as a fact in James 2:20 for he states, "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

The demons have "faith" but CANNOT be saved because "faith alone" does NOT save!!!! Why is it so hard for you to understand that faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD???

You wrote, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned Mark 16:16 This verse does not mention anything about "he that baptizes not shall be damn", so that is enough to get rid of your "absolute" requirments. But you insist on following your false doctrine, and make a case for the word "AND"."

No David, Jesus said that "He who believes AND is baptized WILL BE SAVED. The words at the end of this verse "he who does not believe will be condemned" do NOT change the wording in the first part of the verse. If they do, then we have a CONTRADICTION in God's Word for He PLAINLY stated in 1 Peter 3:21 that BAPTISM SAVES.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 03, 2003.

Ok rod, here is your answer.

You wrote, "If all of us attend your church, Kevin, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?"

This is NOT MY DOCTRINE that I follow, it is the "doctrine of CHRIST". It is NOT difficult to OBEY 100% of the gospel now is it? One CAN FULLY OBEY the following: 1. In HEARING the gospel, 2. In having FAITH in the gospel, 3. In REPENTING of their sins, 4. In CONFESSING their FAITH in Jesus as the Son of God, 5. In being BAPTIZED FOR the REMISSION OF SIN. Number 6 is where we are NOT 100% obedient and that is "being FAITHFUL until death". We are to WORK out our salvation with "fear and trembling" for the Apostle Paul stated in Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

You wrote, "If all of us attend your church, David, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?"

No, because David's Church does NOT teach the CORRECT plan of salvation.

You wrote, "If all of us attend your church, Gail, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?"

No, because Gail's Church does NOT teach the CORRECT plan of salvation.

You wrote, "If all of us attend your church, rod, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?"

No, because rod's Church does NOT teach the CORRECT plan of salvation.

You wrote, "If all of us attend your church, Gwen, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?"

No, because Gwen's Church does NOT teach the CORRECT plan of salvation.

You wrote, "If all of us attend your church, Welp, and follow your doctrine 99% in full obedience (because 100% would mean perfection), would we then enter Heaven?"

No, because Welp's Church does NOT teach the CORRECT plan of salvation.

You wrote, "Each of us have some idea of the truth, some have part of the truth, and some have all of the truth. At least, this is what I've read so far. But, obviously, we can't all have the truth and practice it through our worship identically. Yet, some of us claim to be correct. So, this must be happening: 1. the Scriptures are unclear. 2. the Scriptures are mis-interpreted. 3. the Scriptures are understood within the cultures or traditions. 4. Man has distorted the truth and continues to distort the truth. 5. Salvation cannot be found in any church. 6. Salvation can be found in only one church. 7. Salvation can be found in other denominations. 8. Salvation has nothing to do with church, denominations,and doctrines. 9. Religions of the world?????"

The scriptures are CLEAR, it is just those little things called CREEDS and CATECHISMS that get in the way of a CORRECT understanding of God's Word. Obedience to God is REQUIRED of his servants. (See Romans 16:26). How different is this from people who say that we don't have to keep any law. The Bible says that we are under law, "the perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25) and the New Testament writers obviously thought that we could keep it. Paul told Timothy that the Scriptures make the man of God "perfect". This word indicates the child of God is made complete by the Word. One will never be complete spiritually by heeding man's doctrines, creeds, catechisms and opinions. Paul then says the man of God will be "thoroughly furnished unto all good works". That is, he will be equipped with what he needs to serve God faithfully. He knows what his Father requires of him, and he gladly performs it with gratitude for the mercy and grace shown to him.

Preaching Christ involves preaching baptism FOR the remission of sins. Jesus told Nicodemus, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5). In Matthew 28:19, Christ commanded his disciples to baptize those whom they taught. In Mark 16:16, Jesus settled the matter for those who would question baptism's connection with salvation. He said, "He who believes and and is baptized will be saved; and he who does not believe will be condemned." Who has the authority to contradict Christ?

There is an example in the New Testament of an individual who preached Christ. In Acts 8:35, the record states that when Philip taught the Ethiopian eunuch, he "began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus." The next verse says, "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" In verses 38-39, Philip baptized him. Plain and simple, Philip "preached Jesus"; however, it involved preaching baptism. Thus, to claim to preach Christ without preaching baptism is equal to not preaching him at all.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 03, 2003.

Kevin, you truly know the Scriptures. I'm sure that you know the verse about Paul making a point about failing to obey the law 100%. If one part is not obeyed, then the whole part is null. You have also adhered to the "trembling" of working out our Salvation. How much work is enough or not enough? Can there truly be 100% in light of the verse that tells us that no one on earth is "good"?

rod..

..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 03, 2003.

rod,

You wrote, "Kevin, you truly know the Scriptures. I'm sure that you know the verse about Paul making a point about failing to obey the law 100%. If one part is not obeyed, then the whole part is null."

This was OLD TESTAMENT LAW and does NOT have anything to do with the New Testament.

You wrote, "You have also adhered to the "trembling" of working out our Salvation. How much work is enough or not enough? Can there truly be 100% in light of the verse that tells us that no one on earth is "good"?"

Yes, because in the NEW TESTAMENT, we are NOT under the OT law and regulations, but if you will go back and re-read 1 John 1:6-7, the Apostle John said, "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

How do we know that we have "fellowship with Him" (with Jesus)???

The Apostle John gives us the answer in 1 John 2:3, "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments."

Keeping His commandments is NOT hard for John also says in 1 John 5:3, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."

The TEST of knowing Jesus is KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS and we are COMMANDED to 1. Believe the gospel, 2. Repent of our sins, 3. Confess our Faith in the gospel, 4. Be Baptized FOR the remission of our sins, 5. And to be Faithful until death. Obedience to the gospel is the easy part, remaining a Christian and working out your salvation with "fear and trembling" and "bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ". (2 Corinthians 10:5) is the hard part.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 04, 2003.

Actually, Kevin, you left out the two greatest commandments (according to Christ)1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind; and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself.

Alas, without love, "thou art a clanging cymbal."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 05, 2003.

Why yes you did Kevin..Your plan is not complete.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 05, 2003.

Gail brings out a very important teaching. With all of our heart we should love.....this includes music as an experssion of that love.

rod..

..

.

-- ELREYROD@YAHOO.COM (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 05, 2003.

Gail,

It was not my intent to list ALL of the commandments, so I did not leave out the two you mentioned.

David,

If the plan of salvation as revealed in the Word of God is not complete, then please do tell everyone what is missing?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 05, 2003.

Kevin,

If you do not list all of the commands then you are guilty of removing from the "plan" of salvation. Which means you are preaching a false gospel yourself.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 05, 2003.

I posed a concern earlier about 100% vs. 99%. If the Pharisees were criticized about following the "law" to the "T", why wouldn't the same criticism apply to the New Testament "commandments" and "laws"? Is there a percentage of Salvation avaible to the believer? If so, would somebody post the "stock exchange" of Salvation?

Obviously, I don't believe in "percentage" anything. Speaking about "percentages", I read the following comment and could not keep from laughing (maybe you'll get the pun):

"Circumcision is pointless".

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 06, 2003.

David,

You wrote, "If you do not list all of the commands then you are guilty of removing from the "plan" of salvation. Which means you are preaching a false gospel yourself."

Really David??? Is this the only answer you can come up with since you CANNOT refute the plan of salvation that has been presented in which someone who is a lost sinner can be saved??? Every commandment presented in the New Testament is NOT part of the commands required to be OBEYED in order for one to be saved. If I am preaching a "false gospel" as you so state, then I challenge you to put forth the commands that I have neglected and expound how they are required for one to obey in order for them to be saved. Once you have accomplished this, please also tell everyone here how these commandments are in harmony with your plan of salvation which states that one can be saved by "faith only".

rod,

You wrote, "I posed a concern earlier about 100% vs. 99%. If the Pharisees were criticized about following the "law" to the "T", why wouldn't the same criticism apply to the New Testament "commandments" and "laws"?"

I also asked you to show in the New Testament where this applied, to which you have NOT provided the book, chapter NOR verse to justify your argument.

How about answering my reply to your initial question rod instead of bringing up the same charge???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 06, 2003.

It may seem that my questions are targeted at the Church of Christ, but in all actuality, they are targeted at the Catholic Church in regards to works. But, I do understand the comparison with any doctrine that includes "works".

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 06, 2003.

Link to the Catholic Forum: Traditions.

I know some here will not want to set foot in that forum, but the write-up is nice.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 07, 2003.