I know I always felt odd when clapping at Mass....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=583&ncid=583&e=2&u=/nm/ 20030923/od_nm/pope_mass_dc

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 23, 2003

Answers

hmmm... -yahoo apparently changed the url. here is a fresh link to the article:

No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), September 23, 2003.

GT, the liturgical regulations have never allowed applause. Hearing it has always irked me, because it indicates that people are forgetting to see Calvary and the Resurrection in the Mass -- and are instead treating the most sacred as some kind of human performance or entertainment.

Be very careful, though, not to trust what is stated in that goofy "yahoo" article. Yahoo is notoriously liberal and anti-Catholic, and it is pretty obvious, from the shabby terminology used, that the author of the article is not Catholic and seems confused. Who knows how many errors and misunderstandings slipped in.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 23, 2003.

Is Reuters any better?

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml? type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=3492743

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), September 23, 2003.

Sorry, should have put the previous url in a LINK

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), September 23, 2003.

The dignity and ritual of the Eucharistic celebration should not be compromised.

However, there is a time and place for everything. When the rules become more important than the reason, it's TIME to change the rules.

I still fear that the ultra-conservative curia is pushing their agenda in the wake of the Pope's failing health. The main office will always state the hard line policy, but we are in danger of stepping backward not forward.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), September 23, 2003.

we are in danger of stepping backward not forward.

What, in your opinion, would constitute a "step forward?"

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), September 23, 2003.

Stepping forward means we change more stuff! (end sarcasm)

I agree with JFG--pre-emptive news stories about forthcoming Vatican documents, especially when written by the liberal opposition, should always be taken with about two buckets of salt.

For a pretty balanced article speculating about what the future has in store for the Church (at least, her inner workings), take a look at this article by Ian Ker, Why the new century will not bring Vatican III.

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), September 23, 2003.

When a person or groups sing at the altar, I prefer that there be no clapping after the singing. Believe it or not, there are some "performers" out there that sing for their own glory. Maybe I'm too critical?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2003.

-we are not in danger...

That which is not of God and or not with God is always in danger -as it should be...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), September 23, 2003.

amen to that daniel, if you dont mind im copying that into my lists of good quotes.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), September 23, 2003.

Skoobuoy, thanks for the link. I have bookmarked the page for future reading. I like Fr. Ian Ker VERY much, having seen him speak several times, on EWTN, about Cardinal Newman and new "movements" in the Church.
JFG
PS: Don't worry too much, John P. If permission for anything really is withdrawn, I am confident that a valid reason will be given.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 23, 2003.

Oh, I meant to say something else, John P.
You wrote: "I still fear that the ultra-conservative curia is pushing their agenda in the wake of the Pope's failing health."

In my opinion, it is not helpful to insert political categories [e.g., "ultra-conservative"] into a discussion of theology. On the other hand, if you want to speak of "conservatism," you should be happy that people in positions of Catholic authority really desire to "conserve" the deposit of the faith and authentic Catholic worship -- rather than "liberally" passing off non-Catholic errors or questionable worship forms as legitimate.

Finally, I think that the pope remains fully alert and in charge. From studying his face (during his recent trip to Slovakia), I concluded that only certain parts of his body -- but not his mind -- are functioning with difficulty. He chose the curial officials, and he approves what they write -- only after he edits it. If changes are a-comin', you can almost be certain that they have been gradually in the works for many years. The Church usually moves very slowly.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 23, 2003.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/20030923.htm

-- lurker (lurker@mailinator.com), September 24, 2003.

Good points to ponder John G..

I'm influenced a lot by the plight of the diocesan priest.

Priests seem to be caught in the middle. Many times they try to allow expressions of faith that people enjoy, while also trying to remain faithful to the rubrics of the mass.

For me, expressions of faith that are genuinely intended for praise, should be allowed, of couse within reason.

And I know, "Who's reason?"

Granted, I have not witnessed some of the outlandish liturgical abuses that have been discussed in the past. I'm blessed to be in Bishop Joseph Fiorenza's diocese.

jake, I would like the Church to remain faithful to the Spirit of Vatican II. Evangalization is the key.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), September 24, 2003.

"I would like the Church to remain faithful to the Spirit of Vatican II."

john,

The 'Spirit' of Vatican II can and does mean many things to many people -therein lies the root of any abuses -misinterpretation is one term that comes to mind when describing the no doubt well intentioned in a majority of instances yet 'bad' abuses instigated.

The 'Spirit' of Vatican II is a nebulous term - a nebulous term that could just as easily be the battle cry for the faithful, the ignorant or the heretic alike -do you see this? - Rome is acting on concrete things -and Rome is the authority...

Is there anything specifically that you fear the Church is not or will not be faithful to? In my opinion, specifics is required -our Church is the repository of documented specifics of the Truth and the interpretation thereof -present your specific fear -compare it to Truth, accept and embrace Truth fully -when there is conflict, set aside that which does not mirror Truth...

Our condition as individuals is flawed -we must remain faithful to God & Rome, our Pope -it is obedience required -- Faithful Obedience...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), September 26, 2003.

-Just posting a link an interseting story/article I found germain to this topic and regarding Vatican II inspired 'improvements' that are only now being implemented -- It would lead one to think that the upcoming guidance from Rome may take several years to be implemented in these parishes...

Some Mass revisions optional for Catholics

How about singing during Communion:

-some quotes from the article:

"Standing and singing during Communion is a sign worshippers are in communion with their brothers and sisters in the body of Christ. They're still invited to kneel after everyone has received Communion to symbolize communion with Christ.

The revisions in the Communion rite intend to restore reverence, promote unity and deepen the understanding of worship,'' said the Rev. Thomas McCann of Immaculate Heart of Mary in Cuyahoga Falls. ``Most of the changes affect the priests and the Eucharistic ministers. For those in the pews, the changes are not substantial."

hmmm.... "in communion with their brothers and sisters"... -- ??? The Creed begins with I -NOT WE

hmmm... "intend to restore reverence"... -restore it from what/where?

-The implementation seems like politically correct 'diversity indoctrination' programs that permeate our culture here in the US

-e.g. participation in any activity is optional BUT acceptance of the activity is required -Very Universal NOT...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), October 10, 2003.

P.S.

fogot to mention: "to symbolize communion with Christ."

hmmm... what of the true presence of Christ...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), October 10, 2003.

I always thought kneeling was more reverential than standing.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 11, 2003.

I teach 7th and 8th grades at a Catholic school in the Joliet Diocese, in DuPage County, IL. I also sing in the choir at my parish church. I find it incomprehensible that while we are trying to teach our young Christian Catholics to be part of our communities, and while we are teaching them our doctrine and tradition, we are at the same time often repressing their natural enthusiasm and love for Christ! What is so wrong with spontaneous reaction?? When the morning announcements are read at my school spontanous applause erupts when a classmate's birthday is announced. What an affirmation for that child and for life! Where is the cut-off when we we have to weigh what is affirmation and what is inappropriate? We must remember that children (older children are still children, myself included) will still respect the Liturgy, given proper guidance from parents and teachers, but also need a format that allows them to be themselves. When pastors, liturgists, catechists, etc. permit certain parameters of personal expression to be a part of prayer they are inviting the whole person to come to the table. Last week we celebrated the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary and prayed the Luminous Mysteries. At our all school rosary we had many prayer roles led by 7th grade students. We took a slight risk by having a student with a Jay Leno/???? personality do the welcoming prayer. It was wonderful for him, for all 600 people present, and for prayer (his teachers are still recovering).

-- erin vanidersrine (evaniderst@aol.com), October 12, 2003.

I'm with Erin.

When we present ourselves at Mass, it should be who we really are . . . with honest expressions of our human emotions. When we present ourselves at the table of "Sacrifice," God accepts us as we truely are with our full range of human emotions. To be anything else is masking what God made us to feel.

Extreme reverence has it's place, but I think it comes more out of our "Church of the Middle Ages" mentality. In those days, if you were anything but reverent in the presence of your King, you lost your head.

It's my impression, that, so much of what we have in our church today comes from that "Middle Age" environment. Lots of theology heaped on simple actions with misguided reasonings in the beginning of our tradition, makes for distorted liturgical practices today.

Just my opinion

-- Leon (vol@weblink2000.net), October 22, 2003.

"It's my impression, that, so much of what we have in our church today comes from that "Middle Age" environment. Lots of theology heaped on simple actions with misguided reasonings in the beginning of our tradition, makes for distorted liturgical practices today."

The Lord deserved all the respect we gave Him and tons upon tons more, the respect He diserves does not depend opon how we feel like experssing our selfs, the level is still the same it does not change with the year the season or a life time.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 05, 2003.