.22 sws Chechnya

Handout, please note that the chech rebels have used the .22 with a suppressor as a close range urban weapon. The great success was the taking of a Russian general while delivering an outdoor address to regional officers. A ballsy effort on the part of the sniper. It would have been close.

The Russians are now in turn looking at the .22 in a new light.

-- Steve (amoknow@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003

Answers

The .22 as a training weapon or as a guerilla warfare weapon is possibly superior due to light and cheap ammunition, but as a sniping weapon in urban envornment, I would have to say at least a 5.56 would be standard. The use of the .22LR as a sniping weapon is a damn joke. The use of the .22 by Israeli forces can be noted to be due to the cheap reliability of the weapon. Furthermore, if it's Urban environment, I would personally go suppressed m16-a3 with 3-9 x 40 mm leupold sniper scope. If assassination was required, a .50 BMG would be choice for added distance but a .308 would be usable. In the case of just tagging some random targets, such as Iraq, a German G3 with 4- 12 x 50 leupold would be a superior choice. As far as the .22 goes, it's fun and cheap, but I wouldn't put my life on the line for it. Anything a LR can do, a 556 can do better.

-- Sukina JSDF (deaths_grasp@hotmail.com), December 02, 2004.

.22 is favorite for poaching animals as big as deer. "sniping" is a subjective term. A bullet that small is wind sensitive. But you can read in a forensics manual that a rifle fired .22LR has enough power to penetrate 12" of soft tissue after traveling 200 meters. A .22 short pen gun can penetrate 6" of solid pine. Try that with an icepick. Results may vary.

-- T. gold (biu.gung@juno.com), February 27, 2004.

Wow, this is the third post I've left in this here sniper forum. Anyways... any friggin' rifle can be considered a sniper rifle, even a .22LR. But no sniper in his right mind would use such a weapon. A silenced .22 does have its uses if you are a rebel willing to be martyred for "the cause"... but I'm sure a trained sniper would have access to something a little better.

-- Brad Kelsey (CF_18_Hornet_29@hotmail.com), February 13, 2004.

if you ever read(something that you probably do not even know how to do), you will know that since the .22 is so small, and has only enough power to penetrate the skull,not exit it, then you will know that the .22 is the most deadliest round available.

-- green bean (greenbeanie10@yahoo.com), February 12, 2004.

Get a fucking life.

If you can't talk .2 rimfire throat-shots, why are you here?

Life lesson fuckwits:

Tools in a tool-box.

A .22 is just another spanner suited for a specific task.

-- U.R. Dikheds (amoknow@yahoo.com), January 29, 2004.

Green Bean, you're a fucking halfwit. It's sad to think a man-child such as yourself would even attempt to open his cum dumpster without first having a smidgin of common sense in his pea sized brain. If you honestly think that the .22 rimfire round is the deadliest caliber available, you're even stupider than I can fathom. The fact that you also think it's a gaurantee that everytime a sniper fires a weapon someone dies shows that you are truley a fucktard beyond any shadow of a doubt. Thanks for playing, please try again, dumbass.

-- Handout (fredjarvin@yahoo.com), January 29, 2004.

http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm

-- Scarabb (scarabb2003@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

The 10 shot grouping at 200 yds. on a lapped 18.5" barrell, 4 lb. ruger 10/22 standard w/ compensator, bolt buffer, and suppressor is a little under 2 3/4" when firing most target, standard velocity ammo. Occasionally you'll get a flyer, but you'll still be under 3" that's the norm in a machine production rifle. Use the Aguila 60 gr. .22 SSS in a 28" Bull (w/ a 1:16-18" twist) custom rifle and the grouping shrinks to about 2" or less. Pretty good weapon material. Concealable, Capable, and whisper quiet. Pretty much useless past 250 though, then you're just flinging mini mortars. The 60 gr. SSS will penetrate at least 20" of ballistic gel at 200 yds. That's enough stopping power for me if I have some kind of cover. They(Mr. or Mrs. I hate America) won't know where the shot came from till you're back home sipping on a cold one. Gotta be in good hands though. Everybody is right aside from the mudslinging.

-- Jason Lowe (jasonlowe@nts-online.net), October 25, 2003.

Handout, you are a stupid ass. the .22 is the most deadly round. assassins use it, and in urban areas(read cities and towns, any built up area) it is and has been used as a sniper weapons system.Chechen snipers use it with effective results and the VC used it against our military(again with effective results) in the vietnam war. so i'd rather not get shot at all, as any shot from a trained sniper is going to kill you.

-- green bean (greenbeanie10@yahoo.com), October 24, 2003.

interesting argument that i undoubtedly missed but... a .22 rifle not suitable for a sniper rifle? hmm.. in some situations perhaps not, as mentioned in the previous posts, but a .22 with the right ammo will do more damage than alot of people think. for instance comparing a 36grain lead hollow point to a 40grain solid bullet, which would win? most would say the hollow point would do the most damage due to the mushrooming effect upon impact but that's not so. you see the standard .22lr bullet after impact into soft flesh almost always yaws 180 degrees(flips end over) and penetrates much deeper than the mushroomed hollow point. compare 8.5inches to nearly 14, big difference there. the cavity left by the hollow point is approx. 9-10mm but the solid bullet leaves a cavity nearly a half inch at the height of the yaw. try sewing that up. as far as the distance goes well that's up to the circumstance i guess but i have a marlin .22 rifle fitted with a simmons 4x32 scope that i can consistantly place my next shot through my last one(2 shots only one hole) at a good 50yrds. i've even went to the boundaries of my shooting range which is about 200yrds and made consistant shots on a gallon sized water jug straight on, no come-up or adjusting for distance what so ever. only did that once so far and didn't have a paper target up so i don't know the grouping on that but i'm eager to find out. but anyway my point being that in the right hands a .22 rifle could very well be a very effective, quiet(especially suppressed), reliable, and accurate instrument. still it goes without saying one would indeed need to pick his target wisely. i.e. head/heart. but shoot, human heads are about the size of a gallon jug right? :o oh and kudos, nicely said about there being more to sniping than just a guy with a scope and a rifle. a good read for anyone who thinks otherwise would be the sniper field manual FM 23-10. well good/safe shooting to all... m.p.

-- mike p. (ob1poor@cs.com), October 15, 2003.

What's your point 2 kills? I already said we have .22 scoped rifles. It's It's people throwing the word "sniper" out loosely that I'm arguing about. Not that there are accurate .22 rifles. After all, if we went by the media's definition, any half retarded towel-head sticking his AK out a window and spraying a crowd of innocent bystanders would be a qualified "sniper".

-- handout (fredjarvin@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

Check this out: http://club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html IMHO I suspect you do not know everything about all of your own troops arms either.

-- Two-Kills (whizz@vansin.net), September 23, 2003.

One more thing Steve, the passing grade for marksmanship at SS School is 80%. And that's with a .308, not a .22, incase some of you were confused about what our snipers use.

-- Handout (fredjarvin@yahoo.com), September 17, 2003.

If it's stupid and it works, you got lucky. I wouldn't trust me life to stupid luck alone. I'd want all the odds in my favor. Maybe I'm just spoiled. If a BN commander told me to get within 50 yards of a well guarded General and shoot him with a .22, I'd tell him to go fuck himself, that's not what I do. And if I did, I'd have an indirect fire mission en route at the time of the shot. But wait, 50 yards is a little more than dnager close, isn't it?? Fuck, guess I'd better re-evaluate this mission and keep on telling the higher ups to get bent. Maybe for some kind of DA Platoon support I could see getting close, especially in an urban environment, but I wouldn't fire without some sort of well thought out and executed diversion. And if I did, guess what? It wouldn't be with a .22. Maybe a Tango-51 supressed .308. Might even use subsonic ammunition. That would be a hell of a step above a .22. Luckily I'm not anywhere near high speed enough to be getting a mission that tantalizing, so I'll just keep on thinking inside the box. I see what you're saying about stealth, kind alike a prisoner sneaking a shank past the guards and then stabbing some convict 27 times in the shower before anyone sees it, then goes back to his cell to finish reading the novel he's been working on. Smooth. Sly. ballsy. A sniper? Not hardley.

-- handout (fredjarvin@yahoo.com), September 16, 2003.

Ok I know I might be a bit late on this post but let me say what I have to say.

I own a .22lr and it’s a sweet and reliable rifle that at up to 100yards it can hit anything no worries. On the other hand it is a .22 and yes I wouldn’t trust it past 200yards. In the urban envirment where this mission was set it is very very unlikely to even get such a long un open range. If any of you have handled .22’s then you will know how light and nimble they can be ( my is a 5kg target/hunting rifle) some can weigh 1kg easy and the ammo is light compact and can be carried without a problem to anywhere. A .22 magnum would be a better choice tho for this mission. I agree 100% with the sniper test thing, in any decent sniper school the passing mark for any part of the course is a minimum of 70%. And yes what is the point of shooting a untold distance if you can set your scope settings or even get to your FFP (final firing position) I see no problem in a .22 being a sniper weapon as long as there is a sniper behind the scope. I think that a special forces unit with a .22 rifle backed up by a hand gun atlest would make a 50 yard kill in an urban envirment. Ok it was good to hear your views on it and on the over all note you should stick to the basics some times and always always remember this “ if its stupid but it works then its no stupid” take it easy all

Jakub

-- Jakub (jakub@diri.com), September 16, 2003.

One more time. For the record, I think we can do better than the .22 for any urban environment.

Handout, I guess you see all sniping in standard, conventional terms. Bear with me on this, we are not discussing training in North Caralina.

Scenario: 2002 Grozny, Chechen Republic.

Mission: infiltrate Russian held Grozny, passing through numerous checkpoints and fielding unexpected identity checks by Chechen police and Russian OMON. Arrive at known location, wrecked building on edge of Russian military complex. If opportunity arises, execute Russian General of Interior Ministry on local visit and debrief of regional officers.

Situation: Shot likely to be no more than 50 yards. Weapon must be suppressed as area is saturated with security forces. The expectation that simple searches at checkpoints means that larger more lethal weapons may not be feasible.

equipment: one skeletonized suppressed and scoped .22 rimfire.

Overview: the sniper/team must utilise stealth, cunning, forethought and excellent tactical awareness to achieve the mission outcome and exfiltrate safely.

Not my cup of tea, but it was done. I don't care a fat rats arse about opinions on who is stupid. The bigger the calibre does not make you MORE of a sniper.

The training, deployment; equipment and mission profile are what I use to determine if I am up against a sniper.

End for me on this.

Regards Steve

-- Steve (amoknow@yahoo.com), September 15, 2003.

Well said about Sniping more than just a good shot.

The shot is just part of the whole picture, there is a lot more just too get to the position and back alive and undedected. the list is endless !!! you need to be as good as the best units to be a sniper, you are a one man band and all that goes with it.

I have seen guys shoot golfballs at 600 metres with ease but flunk on there map reading skills and there tracking skills, did they pass out badged NO.

It takes a great deal more to be called a sniper than some might think.

In the real world a sniper is a very well trained one man forward recon unit that can hit his target and dissolve from sight.

Which might mean a four day tab back to his pick up.

Bone

-- bone (Bone2@uk.com), September 15, 2003.

I'm not real sure what you just said. I wouldn't go on ANY mission armed with a .22. If you would, you're a braver (read stupid) man than I. I also wouldn't go squirrel hunting with a .308. Different rifles for different purposes. I agree, shooting is the easy part of the job. Why would anyone want to make an already tough task nearly suicidal by minimizing the distance and lethality of their wepon system?? Maybe I'm just slow or something, but I still think all this yapping about the .22 is futile. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to get shot by one, but if I HAD to get shot by a rifle, I'd be praying for it to be a .22. A gazing shot would be nice. Maybe a little bragging scar on my left shoulder. Thanks.

-- Handout (fredjarvin@yahoo.com), September 15, 2003.

Well now, I guess that depends upon what you call a sniper. In more conventional terms, I would agree with you. But then I'm just an old fart, in my day we had heavy , clunky Parker-Hales, I sure as shit did not see that as a "sniper rifle". It was 7.62, target barrelled and had a wooden stock. Standard to all who passed, passed by the sniper school or the local armoury.

My point, was that there are horses for courses. Sniping is more than shooting over long ranges. You seem to be qualified so you might comment later. Methinks shooting is a small part of the snipers skill- set.

The .22 snipers or sharp-shooters if you prefer, display more than marksmanship. A good shot is not a sniper. How many good shots got onto a course but failed nav or stalking?

The reason why I am happy to label the .22 brigade is two fold. Firstly, ingress is skilled and the shot has to be worthwhile as the shooter doesn't have a 800yard head start. Because more than just marksmanship is shown it doesn't fit into just the 'marksman' category. Like wise many will not recognise a place for it in 'sniping'.

Either way, something new and interesting has been tried and tested.

Call it what you may, but beware the humble .22

-- steve (amoknow@yahoo.com), September 15, 2003.

That's real special and all, but a .22 still ISN'T a sniper grade weapon. I also think it was stupid to bet a shot as important as the one you mentioned on a .22. It just happend to work. maybe a 13 year old boy with a slingshot could have killed the Russian general. Would that then be a "sniper" slingshot?? I think not. Anyone who does has their head WAY up in their ass. We have designated Marksmen with acurized scoped m-14 rifles. Guess what...Still NOT a sniper rifle and the guy shooting it still ISN'T a sniper. Good rifles, Useful tools, very deadly in the right hands, but NOT a sniper rifle. The first rifle we shot at sniper school was a match grade, bolt action .22 with a 6x redfield scope. This showed the instructors what kind of grasp we already had on the fundementals. It was a fun 10 rounds. Then it was on to the REAL DEAL. You'll never get good at shooting long range with a .22. Just won't happen. Way too much shit going on past 600 yards that you won't find out about shooting a rifle at 1 or 200 yards. It's good to keep your skills honed or master the basics with, and maybe keeping the local squirrel population in check, but that's about it.

-- Handout (fredjarvin@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.