I have two questions which I need to understand.

This is one part I don't seem to understand at all. The question is, what about people who commit suicide due to mental illnesses such as depression, schizophrenia etc.? Many mental illnesses are supposedly treated as the same as physical illnesses, still scientists say that there are cases where medicines have no effect, and the causes of many those dieseases are still unknown.

I have heard many catholics saying that mental illnesses are due to sin and nonsense like that. There is no doubt that it originates from ignorance. They might be ignorant but I wonder if this attitude dates back to old times. The problem is, as I have asked, what about people with these illnesses who commit suicide? Are the treated the same as those who were "normal"? Are they denied christian burial? Since it is said that these people often do not have control of their minds, their judgement is often impaired. So are they still responsible for the horrible sin? Does it remain the gravest of all sins for them?

What is the stance of the church on this issue? If a person who commits suicide is found out to have mental illnesses which make the person do things like this, is the person supposed to bear the full responsibility? Or are they given normal burial procedures, and would prayers be said for them, as the same as those who died of other causes?

This is a very confusing issue where I can't think of a correct answer. Human law states that a person is innocent if mentally ill while commiting any crime. Does the law of the church take a more stiff stance? What about mental illnesses themselves? There are more serious illnesses like insanity, paranioa etc then the non-agressive ones like depression, ptsd, and a multitude of other disorders. What would a perfect answer for this question?

The second part is, if they are forgiven for the sin due to the illness, what about the rest of the problems? Many of those people are very unlikely to even go to church and attend holy mass, confess etc even if they very much desire. Does the fault lie upon them or their illness or anything else?

The other question I have is regarding normal people who commit suicide. Is it necessary to bury them differently, permanently labelling them as "outlaws"? Normally people would feel sympathy for them, but should their dead bodies be buried like that? Even though they sinned, they are still God's children who most likely would have repented before they died. Is it a rule that they should be buried like that? Or does it have anything to do with the traditional view of them as those lost forever?

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), September 13, 2003

Answers

what about people who commit suicide due to mental illnesses such as depression, schizophrenia etc.?

Sin requires full knowledge and consent of the will. To the extent that a mentally ill person does not have the capacity to a) know what he/she is doing is right or worng and b) freely choose evil over good, they cannot be morally culpable. Even the civil law acknowledges this.

I have heard many catholics saying that mental illnesses are due to sin and nonsense like that. There is no doubt that it originates from ignorance. They might be ignorant but I wonder if this attitude dates back to old times.

Old does not equal wrong. All disease, pain, misfortune, even death itself are the result of original sin. They were not part of God's plan for us. They came into the world as the result of the fall of our first parents. This concept does not originate from ignorance, but from the eternal Magesterium of the Church, and the Church Fathers are in unanimous agreement.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), September 13, 2003.

"Old does not equal wrong. All disease, pain, misfortune, even death itself are the result of original sin."

I was not referring to original sin. It does not matter whether old or not, but they have been saying that it was due to that particular individual's sin. It is like when the people asked Jesus whether the blind man's illness was due to his sin or not. It is not just ignorance, but probably people say things like that due to ignorance. it is no different than saying that the headaches, cold and any other disease that happens to a person is the result of some past sin of THAT individual.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), September 13, 2003.

It seems to me that a person "dies" prior to those terminal conditions of the mind and body. What is left is a spirit-less person out of sync with actual bodily death. His sins, hopefully, were absolved before his terminal condition. Alztheimers disease comes to mind as an example. The victim is no longer who he was as the disease consumes him. The victim dies and his spirit departs to be with God while his body remains on earth to suffer its completion of death. I could still see the image of my grandfather and touch him and talk at him, but I knew that he was no longer with us.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 13, 2003.

I guess that from the way I said "may catholics" you assumed that I am not one. I was pointing out the mistake made by even catholics, by doing exactly what the jews asked Jesues at that time, even thought he clearly gave an answer, a deep one though as it should be.

Also, it is a serious and confusing issue when considering the difference between mental illnesses and the thin line between sanity and insanity. It would allow a person to make this as an "excuse" to commit suicide. At one point the person may even think the urge to make an excuse is the result of some hallucination and be free of sin, whether that is true or not. This may not make any sense to some, but it is complicated.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), September 13, 2003.

Rod, I think it is more complicated than that. I am not sure how to say. I do not think a person dies, until the spirit flies away but I do not think the spirit leaves a body until the body is truly dead, ie even though your late grandfather (may his soul rest in peace) was not aware of his surroundings, his spirit was with him. It is just like when we are in a deep sleep or even in comas. It is possible to return to a normal state where are aware of the surroundings and our mind wakes up. What I think is that the spirit leaves the body only after truly the physical death has occured, ie the vital body functions are done no more. Perhaps it is the instant of the death, perhaps a little later and perhaps a little sooner, but since it is possible, even though remotely, to make a supposedly "dead" person to return to life, under certain circumstances, it can't be true that the spirit left the body. Then again, there is the issue of near death experiences which is still a mystery. Unfortunately ,we do not have enough proof to say whether it is a trick of the brain to ease the seriousness of the matter or if the spirit left the body and then returned. Hmm I think this is deeper and complicated than I thought.

So we cannot say that the sins would be absolved before the illness consumes a person, becaue it is possible that the illness go away and the person be normal. If in fact the person dies in that illness, we could be sure that his sins would be absolved because he/she is unable to perform penance for the sins. It is then the issue of the type of death comes into consideration, and the complexity of the illness. Human mind is always a mystery.

I suppose thinking about this is enough to drive a man insane. I hope I do not seem to be "insane" by thinking too much into this.

But seriously, setting aside the suicide issue, we know of at least one believable person whose spirit might have left the body before his death. St John, at the time of revelation when he(his spirit/with body?) was taken into heaven. We also know of similar incidents involving many saints. Unfortunately none of them gave us enough answers to "satisfy" our curiosity.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

Yes, it is a complicated thing. Put it in the context of the "incorruptible" bodies of the Saints. In this situation, the body has an absence of the Spirit. Or, does the Spirit linger? I doubt it.

I do equate illness and suffering with sin. Is it a Catholic belief to say that our sins bring forth our suffering and illness?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

The incorruptible bodies of saints is different and has nothing to do with it. In their cases, their dead bodies simply defy the natural science which makes it decay.

In the case of normal minded individuals, we only know of at least one "approved" suicide, and that is Samson's, but that was for doing his duty to destroy the enemy, according to the law of the old times. King Saul commited suicide but there is not anything more said about that. No one knows for sure about Juda Scariotha, except that his death was described in a very insulting manner, which shows that even at those times suicide was regarded as something really bad.

What troubles me is not anything about a normal person's suicide. Everyone knows that it is a direct challenge to God, more than just insulting the life that he has given us.

The complication of the matter has to do with the kind of mental illness of a person who commits suicide, the situations involved, and the rule of treating people who commited suicide differently. It gets more complicated if only the person who died knew about specific details, but even that perhaps, was part of some illusion. As far as the person who commited suicide is concerned, how he is buried or what happened to his dead body or anything else has no importance. But it matters to others around him. Near death experience is a much more complex issue perhaps, but unfortunately have have no lead, but simply uncomfirmed and doubtful assumptions regarding that issue.

Once a person dies, he cannot do penance anymore but he can repent. I believe that at the moment of death a person has to make the choice of either going into the light side, to be with God or to turn away from the light, either because of hatred or because of fear or shame. In normal thinking, if a person was delusional to commit the sin, he is free of all the responsibilites, but what if the person believed that he was delusional, when in reality he is not? These facts have occured to me when I've been researching on the subject, and the more I think about it the more complex and deep it gets. Is it another mystery which we are not supposed to fully understand in our mortal form?

Also, the practice of a different burial for those who commited suicide troubles me. Where and how did it originate? It is perhaps a good thing in the sense that would-be sinners be shown what happens to their dead body if they do that. But then, the dead does not worry about how their body is destroyed, whether saint or sinner. Is it really a necessary step to show the seriousness of the sin? What if the person repented before or at the time of the death? Is there a classification on how to bury normal suicide cases, and the complicated ones?

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

Also Rod, on a global scale we can say that mankind's sins caused sufferings and pain, and we can go back to Adam and say that his fall, and Eve's fall. But that does not apply to individual people.

If a child is born handicapped or if a child catches any disease, is it because of the sin commited by that child? The price of the sin of Adam and Eve, ie death is there, but what was the sin of the child?

If an evil person lives with no illness or difficulties, but in complete luxury, pleasue and power even when he is full of sin, and his neighbour is a good hearted man who lives in God, but full of illnesses and difficulties, we see the contradiction.

There are cases of saints and other good people who inflict pain and suffering upon themselves, for the sake of others. In that case too, it is not a result of any sin. There are cases where God punishes us by giving us suffering, but not in all cases.

It is a catholic belief to say that sufferings and diseases came due to the fall of man, BUT it is NOT a catholic belief to say that an individual person's suffering is really due to some sin that person commited.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

Rod,

Stick with the basics. Don't make it harder than it is.

You will never be able to understand "what is left of the."spirit- less person". You should understand that this person has a soul. And in you're eyes it is "spirit-less".

But it is impossible for you to understand the God of the Universe. You need your Catholic faith.

If we think they are "spiritless" than next we will guess when the soul leaves the body? Next could be Euthanasia? Next, we could guess when our soul would be judged by God?

-- - (David@excite.com), September 14, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, fellows.

Abraham, you asked: "The problem is, as I have asked, what about people with these illnesses who commit suicide? Are the treated the same as those who were 'normal?' Are they denied christian burial? Since it is said that these people often do not have control of their minds, their judgement is often impaired. So are they still responsible for the horrible sin? Does it remain the gravest of all sins for them? "
They are treated just like anyone else. They are not denied a Catholic funeral Mass and burial service. [Good to see you, Jake, on this thread, answering Abraham's other two questions.]

Abraham, I have to disagree with one thing you told Rod: "It is a catholic belief to say that sufferings and diseases came due to the fall of man, BUT it is NOT a catholic belief to say that an individual person's suffering is really due to some sin that person commited."

The first part is right (about "the fall of man"), but the second part is not always right. There are many times when a person's suffering is completely caused by forces outside himself, not "due to some sin that person committed. But there are other times when suffering, even death, is an immediate penalty for a person's sin. For example, (1) a person's inner organs or brain can be damaged, and death hastened, by the use of forbidden substances ... (2) in some nations, there are epidemics of venereal diseases because people get involved in the sin of prostitution. I'm sure that, if you try, you can think of other examples.

Abraham, you also asked another set of questions: "... if a person was delusional to commit the sin, he is free of all the responsibilites, but what if the person believed that he was delusional, when in reality he is not?"
This is "circular thinking." If a person believes he is delusional when he is not, that in itself is a delusion. This is an impossible/illogical situation, so I suggest that you not think about it.

"Also, the practice of a different burial for those who commited suicide troubles me. Where and how did it originate?
I'm not aware of a "practice of a different burial." I don't think that it exists. Now, a normal funeral is typical, I believe. [I think that the only exception might be made in the case of someone who very publicly denounced the faith and killed himself as a public act of atheistic defiance. Canon Law allows the denial of a funeral to other public grave sinners (like Mafia bosses).]

Prior to a few decades ago, the Church would not grant a funeral to any person who had committed suicide, because (due to clinical psychology being unknown or in its infancy) the prevailing opinion was that the person had probably committed a mortal sin of "self-murder."

As the saying goes, David, "Great minds think alike." You made a terribly important point to Rod, one that immediately occurred to me when I read his comment ("The victim dies and his spirit departs to be with God while his body remains on earth to suffer its completion of death"). This is exactly the kind of thinking that some people will use as a justification to commit euthanasia. "After all," they would say, "his soul is already with God. There's no sense in his useless body just taking up space (and burning up money), so lets put it out of its misery." I know that Rod is not thinking this way, but others would do so, if Rod's speculation were to become widely accepted.

Rod, it would be against Catholic teaching to say, as you did, that "The victim is no longer who he was as the disease consumes him. I could still see the image of my grandfather and touch him and talk at him, but I knew that he was no longer with us." The victim still is who he was, but he just does not react to you as he did before. Your grandfather was still with you. The sufferer is who he was -- and we have the good example of (non-Catholic) Nancy Reagan to look to, as she continues to respect Ronald as her husband, a man with a soul and dignity.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 14, 2003.

Hi John.

I understand your point and teachings. It never occurred to me--euthanasia. I do not accept euthanasia, because there is a purpose for suffering. I may not understand that purpose, but it is part of our existence until we die. This is why suicide is also out of the question, but I can never know what the suicidal person may be experiencing for him to do such an act. It doesn't seem relevant anymore to perform euthanasia on a "spirit-less" body. But, after your explanations, the idea of a "spirit-less" body, before dying, is no longer an issue. I suppose that people want so strongly to believe that their loved ones did not experience the suffering that they actually did.

And, I think that some people would extend these feelings in regards to Christ suffering on the cross. He did suffer. How can we say that our own would escape their own suffering?

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

Thanks J.H. That cleared many of my confusions. But there was one error due to the way of my writing. I was not saying that it is wrong to say sufferings are due to sins alone, or that sufferings have absolutely nothing to do with sins. It is a mixture of the two. I was saying that it was wrong to say that the ultimate defenition of suffering of one particular person, cannot be said as the the result of that particular person's past sin. It may be in one case, but it may not be in another. That was my idea. That's why I said, on a global scale it could be said so, but in an individual scale, it is wrong to say that because it may or, may not be true.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

There are some complications left, but I think it's better for me to not think about it anymore. So many questions about death, and about each type of death, but maybe it's something we have to understand ourselves, which we will when we are immortal.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

I used to think that death was something I would face alone. Then, I remembered that Christ will be there with us, so we are never alone even in death. And, death is not necessarily a bad thing. Look at what is on the other side; for some it is eternal life.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

I was happy to read your replies, Rod and Abraham.

This morning, just after I posted my message, I realized that I had left out a key fact. But I had to hurry off to church, so I was unable to post a "follow-up."

Even though you no longer need further evidence, Rod, this additional fact is something that would go against the idea of the soul leaving an Alzheimer's victim early (as expressed by: "The victim dies and his spirit departs to be with God while his body remains on earth to suffer its completion of death.").
The Church teaches that the soul is the life-giving principle of a person. The soul, though invisible and spiritual, nevertheless "animates" a human body that has sufficiently good health to sustain life. Thus, it would be impossible for the soul, the "animator," to exit a diseased body, but still leave that body in a living state for weeks, months, or years.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 14, 2003.

Hi John.

You have answered my question before I asked it. I was thinking about the same thing this morning. I was wondering about the necessity of the body for the spirit. You've read my mind.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

But, actually it is the Spirit for the body, not the other way around.

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.